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Down。這個當然就是當Lesson大家就解釋成說就是要讓投資客學習"},{"start":221.751,"end":236.324,"text":"當然講重一點就是教訓那也就是像剛剛這個總裁所提到說你是不是有看到了什麼樣的訊息就是說現在台灣的情況是不是有接近到這個2000在這個1990年代的日本資產泡沫還有2007年到2008年美國的次代風暴的這種情況"},{"start":244.875,"end":268.628,"text":"所以我就說我要跟委員報告就是說我們到七月八月我們掌握到這個訊息的時候我們才馬上就說請那個銀行來討論一下就如何讓他所傾斜的這個房地產的資源要傾斜到那邊的我們看看要怎麼來就像報告上說的我們這個全體銀行不動產的貸款的總"},{"start":273.89,"end":295.905,"text":"這個比例高達37.5%,比起2009年10月的歷史高點37.9%已經相當的接近了。然後銀行信用資源向不動產部門傾斜的情況還更嚴重。所以你是看到這個情況,所以在第七波的這個選擇性信用管制的時候用重權來打炒房。"},{"start":296.758,"end":322.832,"text":"委員你剛剛講到這個的時候我想我也趁這個機會來解釋一下當時我用這個Lesson就是說我沒辦法剛剛委員就解釋替我解釋的非常好你說要給他們上一課事實上我就是當時這個Lesson我沒有就是說我要教訓他但是有這個效果有教訓的效果"},{"start":324.092,"end":325.533,"text":"但是有達到這個效果了啦?"},{"start":353.744,"end":358.29,"text":"我也是希望是這樣子但是我們也不是說真的是要教訓他啦"},{"start":359.454,"end":384.945,"text":"再請教一下總裁我看有很多委員有很關心就是說我們在九月份的時候你有第七波會不會在12月的時候會不會有這個第八波的這個選擇性信用管制那當然我認為會有一些指標那我想請教一下這個總裁的指標來決定說你看到的什麼樣的情況會有什麼樣的改善的情況或是什麼情況會更嚴重你覺得說要不要再進行下一波的這個信用管制"},{"start":387.542,"end":408.748,"text":"我覺得委員三個指標這三個指標我們可以參考防架、是否有修復、不動產、放款的集中度、不動產的貸款金額這些都是我們可以來觀察的一個指標那還有沒有什麼其他指標大體上大概是這樣子大體上是這樣子所以說就是看說這三個指標"},{"start":411.989,"end":434.034,"text":"有沒有下降來決定說是不是要進行第八波的這個行用管制?最主要的就中央銀行來看的話我們第一個就是說不動產的換款的集中度是有沒有下降這是我們比較那有沒有一個數字比如說現在37.5大概下降到什麼樣的一個程度你會覺得說比較安心這個是合理不合理我們再來大概到哪一個"},{"start":435.055,"end":435.976,"text":"因為現在目前齁誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒"},{"start":451.899,"end":462.129,"text":"對,他也計算在裡面。對啊,所以其實要下來好像有點困難。對,所以我們要密切觀察他。看他是不是嚴重不嚴重,這個是我們必須要去。我們也謝謝委員幫提醒我們這三個指標。不過賴總統是相當肯定,我認為。他在這個國慶的談話,他有特別提到說"},{"start":473.801,"end":475.203,"text":"總裁有沒有覺得心暖暖的?"},{"start":489.003,"end":513.353,"text":"我也非常感謝就是說院裡面跟中午給我們的支持這是我們的那現在就是說上次你來找我的時候我也提到就是說有一些這個重群下去之後當然有一些無辜受害者後來你們也是做了一些調整但是還是有一些情況發生就是說現在是新清安他們去貸款"},{"start":514.274,"end":519.393,"text":"貸款的這個陳述比預期的或是說比之前在你們這個信用管制之前在談的"},{"start":520.641,"end":545.811,"text":"本來談好了但是後來的代給他們的成數降低了或是說支配款要準備的成數也提高了這個有沒有就像說你們有這一個電話打過來這樣子抱怨反應的有沒有我想應該也會有不過我跟委員報告了所以我們這一次的協組措施把那些已經訂約的包括中古屋或是那個預售屋的"},{"start":548.632,"end":573.741,"text":"他一戶二戶的那個我們都有在排除條款裡面但是三戶以上的話我們就無能為力三戶以上有很多是那個剛買房子對那剛買房子所以我們協組措施所以我們協組措施裡面就有這樣的一個協組措施那還有就是說你如果說預售物你也是守候協組的措施出來之後這方面的抱怨有比較減少嗎就比較少了啦就比較少了"},{"start":575.602,"end":594.06,"text":"再請教一下總裁美國的聯準會降息但是台灣最近是升息然後總裁對他表示說貨幣政策會持續偏向緊縮短期內不會有降息的動作是不是?"},{"start":596.157,"end":611.012,"text":"我、我、我想呢第一個就是說利、利、貨幣政策的一個調整是整個的啊、我們的理事會共同來決定的不過我個人的看法呢就是說到目前為止雖然我們預測說我們明年會"},{"start":614.755,"end":643.564,"text":"通膨會降到2%以下但是我們還是要持續的去觀察它因為預測有些時候不是非常準確的都要每一個季每一個季去做調整所以到目前為止我覺得我們的貨幣政策在這個水準是合理的最後我再問一下總裁就是說根據114年你們的預算書你們的存款跟放款的平均利率"},{"start":644.584,"end":649.367,"text":"這個相較113年獎是比較低一點點那這個是不是講說我們的貨幣政策在明年會比較寬鬆呢沒有因為沒有我們那個放款是外幣的"},{"start":660.433,"end":660.593,"text":"朗誼的"},{"start":678.925,"end":688.649,"text":"一個是12年那時候所做的預算那一個是113年年初的所做的預算所以差沒有差多少11.12跟1.18沒有差多少換款的那個部分純粹是外幣外幣因為它確實是下來"},{"start":696.313,"end":713.819,"text":"我是希望說這個打草房不是只有這個央行在做當然央行是動作出來之後會聯動的會影響財政或是金管會他們相關的政策我是希望說這個三個部會能夠一起來做是是謝謝謝謝委員鼓勵謝謝謝謝謝謝總裁謝謝主席好謝謝昆城委員接著請顏寬恒委員備詢啊諮詢啊"},{"start":723.672,"end":728.462,"text":"再報告一下就是王世堅委員質詢完畢我要讓我們休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，總裁辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡，謝謝你關心。"],["李委員坤城：常常看到你就是會到各個委員的辦公室去做溝通、協調，這個相當好。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你。"],["李委員坤城：不過你被評為B+總裁，其實我是為你打抱不平。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝你鼓勵。"],["李委員坤城：我認為你還是屬於A級的總裁。我舉兩點，第一個，今年3月在外界都無預警的情況之下，央行升息半碼，但那時候升息半碼是要抑制通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：那時總裁的說法是surprise，但決定合理，主要是為了抑制國內通膨預期心理，這是在3月份。","在6月份央行是升準不升息，總裁那時的說法就是，這次最主要是給市場訊息，此次重點在於房地產，不在於通膨。","光是這兩點，3月和6月份央行的決定，一個是抑制通膨，另外一個就是給市場訊息，開始要打炒房了。我認為央行都有洞燭機先。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：那請教一下，現在是10月份了，回過頭再來看3月份和6月份你的決定，你認為有沒有達到效果了？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果就通膨來講，我們的通膨確實是慢慢在下來。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的預測跟國際的預測大概都是這樣，那我們的通膨慢慢在下來。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：這是第一個。第二個，我們在6月份選擇性信用管制推出來，然後為什麼在9月份的時候再出去？6月份時對於房地產，我們那個時候所掌握的資訊不夠充分，所以力道就比較輕一點。我們的這個報告裡面有講到第2季房地產的貸放情況，裡面有說明。"],["李委員坤城：我有看。"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是6月份的資料，那6月份的資料要到什麼時候我們才掌握得到？我們要到8月份、9月份的時候才能拿得到，所以就是……有房子，然後要申請第一戶，還有第二戶的，人數增加得非常快、金額也增加得非常快，所以我們6月份的那一波是比較輕，那為什麼連續到9月份的時候我們再出手？是因為那個時候我們還沒有掌握到資訊，等掌握到的時候，認為情況比我們原先所想像的嚴重，所以才會有第七波，連續第七波的……"],["李委員坤城：我看第七波的選擇性信用管制，媒體的標題大部分就是，比如「央行五劑猛藥重拳打炒房」、楊金龍說要給投機客一個lesson（教訓），也藉這次機會告訴社會大眾，房市必須cool down。當然lesson大家就解釋成是要讓投資客學習，當然講重一點就是教訓。像剛剛總裁所提到的，你是不是看到了什麼樣的訊息，現在臺灣的情況是不是已接近像1990年代日本資產泡沫化、2007年至2008年美國次貸風暴的這種情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說，我跟委員報告，到7月、8月我們掌握到這個訊息的時候，馬上請銀行來討論一下，就如何讓傾斜到房地產的資源，我們看看要怎麼把它……"],["李委員坤城：就像報告上說的……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：我們全體銀行不動產的貸款總比例高達37.5%了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：比起2009年10月的歷史高點37.9%，已經相當接近了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，更嚴重。"],["李委員坤城：而銀行信用資源向不動產部門傾斜的情況還更嚴重。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：你是看到了這個情況……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以在第七波選擇性信用管制的時候，用重拳打炒房。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，你剛剛講到這個，我想我也趁機會解釋一下，當時我用這個lesson，就是說我沒辦法……剛剛委員就替我解釋得非常好，你說是要給他們上一課。事實上當時說這個lesson，我沒有說要教訓他，所以……"],["李委員坤城：但是有這個效果啊！有教訓的效果啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過就lesson，我就……"],["李委員坤城：所以lesson，這個含意大家可以去解讀，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！是啦！不過我那個時候……"],["李委員坤城：不過你用中文講教訓，那就很直白。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我……"],["李委員坤城：用lesson的話，你還可以講得比較和緩，給大家學習。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，給他一個啟示、給他上一課。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以事後我也請教我們同事，我就說我這個lesson，他們都說我要教訓、教訓，好像很兇的樣子，我覺得中央銀行應該不是那麼兇啦！"],["李委員坤城：但是有達到這個效果了啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我也是希望這樣子，但是我們也不是真的要教訓他啦！"],["李委員坤城：再請教總裁，我看很多委員也很關心，就是9月份的時候你有第七波信用管制，12月的時候，會不會有第八波選擇性信用管制？當然，我認為會有一些指標，請教一下，總裁用什麼指標來決定……就是你看到什麼情況、有什麼樣的改善情況，或是什麼情況更嚴重時，你認為要再進行下一波信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員這三個指標我們可以參考。"],["李委員坤城：喔！房價是否修正、不動產放款集中度及不動產的貸款金額。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這些都是我們可以觀察的指標。"],["李委員坤城：還有沒有什麼其他指標？"],["楊總裁金龍：大體上大概是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：大體上是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以就是看這三個指標有沒有下降，決定是否要進行第八波信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：就中央銀行來看，最主要的，第一就是不動產放款集中度有沒有下降，這是我們比較……"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有一個數字，比如現在是37.5……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為……"],["李委員坤城：大概下降到什麼樣的程度，你會覺得比較安心？"],["楊總裁金龍：這我們要去study合理不合理，再來……"],["李委員坤城：大概到哪一個數字？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛也有委員講到，在目前都是滿水位的情況之下，要讓它一下馬上下來是不大容易，可能也要一段時間。"],["李委員坤城：因為新青安持續在貸款嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，因為新青安現在……"],["李委員坤城：新青安也計算在這裡面嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也計算在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以要下來好像是有一點困難。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們要密切觀察看嚴重不嚴重，這是我們必須要做的，我也謝謝委員提醒我們這三個指標。"],["李委員坤城：不過我認為賴總統是相當肯定的，他在國慶談話時特別提到，要加快打炒房的效率、擴大租屋族的照顧、平衡換屋族的需求，實現居住正義的這條路會繼續走，得罪特定團體也在所不惜。總統講這番話，總裁有沒有覺得心暖暖的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常感謝院裡面跟總統府給我們的支持，這是我們……"],["李委員坤城：好，上次你來找我的時候，我也提到重拳下去之後，當然會有一些無辜受害者，後來你們也做了調整，但還是有一些情況發生，像現在新青安的貸款，貸款成數比預期低，或是在你們信用管制之前，本來都談好了，但後來貸款成數降低或是自備款成數提高，這部分有沒有人打電話跟你們抱怨、反映的，有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想應該會有啦！不過，跟委員報告，這一次我們的協處措施已經把那些訂約的，包括中古屋或預售屋，如果是一戶、二戶的，都有列在排除條款裡，但三戶以上，我們就無能為力，三戶以上……"],["李委員坤城：有很多是那種剛買房子的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，有剛買房子的，所以我們協處措施……"],["李委員坤城：就是在9月19號之前……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的協處措施就有這樣一個協助，還有如果是預售屋……"],["李委員坤城：你們的協處措施出來之後，這方面的抱怨有比較減少嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，比較少了，就比較少了啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教總裁，美國聯準會降息，但臺灣最近是升息，總裁對外表示貨幣政策會持續偏向緊縮，短期內不會有降息的動作，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，貨幣政策的調整，是我們整個理事會共同決定，不過我個人的看法是，到目前為止，雖然我們預測明年通膨會降到2%以下，但我們還是要持續觀察，因為預測有些時候不是非常準確，所以每一季、每一季都要調整，到目前為止，我覺得我們的貨幣政策在這個水準是合宜的。"],["李委員坤城：最後再問一下總裁，根據114年的預算書，你們的存款跟放款平均利率相較113年是低了一點點，這是不是表示我們的貨幣政策在明年會比較寬鬆？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，那個放款是外幣的，外幣是反映美國的降息，所以外幣的放款利率才會下來，至於本幣部分的1.2到1.18，差沒有多少，只是說一個是112年所做的預算，一個是113年年初的預算，所以差沒有多少，1.2跟1.18沒有差多少；放款的部分純粹是外幣，因為外幣確實是下來。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK，我希望打炒房不是只有央行在做，當然央行的動作出來之後，會連動影響到財政部或金管會的相關政策，我希望這三個部會能夠一起來做。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝總裁，謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝坤城委員。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。再報告一下：在王世堅委員質詢完畢後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}