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11:17:45","會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.10659375,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.705343750000001,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.605968750000002,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.36096875,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.63909375,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.70659375,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.520343750000002,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.54534375,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.13159375,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.36721875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.35846875,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.133468750000006,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.49596875,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":49.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.77846875,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.75721875,"end":54.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.587843750000005,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.95909375,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.62096875,"end":62.907218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.759718750000005,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.23159375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.63659375,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.07096875,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.45471875,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.21409375,"end":74.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.04034375,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.52096875000001,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.24221875,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.51596875,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.62534375,"end":85.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.22784375,"end":98.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.76659375000001,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.08534375,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.10596875000002,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.03721875000002,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":181.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.58471875,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.67971875,"end":223.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.29971875,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.80909375000002,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.14221875,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.87596875000003,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.58346875,"end":246.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.90409375000002,"end":245.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.82784375000003,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.14409375000002,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.98221875,"end":270.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.09159375,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.85784375000003,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.94596875,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.93221875,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.24721875,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.86221875,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.81909375000004,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.69596875,"end":309.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.86471875,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.75471875,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":322.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.43284375,"end":320.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.07346875,"end":324.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.34721875,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但是後來是陳水扁當天是這個參加國慶大典他是我有新聞我有看但是我沒有去看他坐在哪裡所以您不知道他會要參加國慶是有這個有這個訊息說會參加國慶所以這個事情你有同意嗎所以他事前有向這個是矯正署臺中監獄有申請核准可以參加國慶大會嗎"},{"start":75.364,"end":84.76,"text":"這部分是臺中建立在做一個處理那矯正署不知道嗎那我是不是請矯正署來待會回答今天周署長有來是不是"},{"start":91.268,"end":109.285,"text":"每個月都會派人過去探視那針對國慶這個陳水扁他本身在9月24號的時候臺中間有特別叮嚀他有這個相關活動務必要事先來報告"},{"start":110.746,"end":123.951,"text":"那在9號那時候還沒有那台中建議在9號10月9號的時候有主動掌握了那個陳水扁要出席我們10月10號的國慶大典"},{"start":126.272,"end":140.862,"text":"那所以那個我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場說證來那即初步的瞭解因為這是慶籌會國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生要這個慶祝國家的成功好簡單來說就是因為呢上面的這個總統說要邀陳水扁"},{"start":156.592,"end":166.257,"text":"臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊可是沒有辦法還只能夠陪同去蒐證然後也沒有說是直接告訴陳水扁你不能夠參加國慶大會臺中監獄是有勸導說是不是那個可以不要去但是陳水扁我必須要講這件事情"},{"start":180.762,"end":207.465,"text":"在本席的這個眼裡我認為他就是一個司法的這個最大的一個恥辱當天陳水扁坐在這個VVIP的這個貴賓席上面後面是司法院院長然後部長您也是在這個另外可能不是正中間的主席台旁邊的貴賓席您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁會參加國慶大典"},{"start":210.489,"end":225.735,"text":"一個探污犯跟我們現在的司法機關的最重要的兩位首長同台很狠的將司法尊嚴踩在腳下這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎我必須說"},{"start":231.854,"end":233.575,"text":"報告委員可以容我回答嗎?"},{"start":247.034,"end":270.184,"text":"李委員報告這次陳水扁出席國慶大典他是由慶酬會來邀請的而且是經過慶酬會有慶酬會的角色但是你們可以不同意是不是過去你們這個有同意過嗎好我們看一下下一頁了基本上對於陳水扁"},{"start":274.145,"end":300.43,"text":"他已經保外就醫將近10年現在已經延長了39次了我不知道臺中監獄這10年來對於陳水扁的表現是視若無睹嗎他可以主持廣播節目他可以代理他的女兒去當訴訟的律師然後呢參加各式各樣的活動然後甚至還參加國慶大典"},{"start":302.878,"end":330.655,"text":"在陳水扁的眼裡他會認為說你們會不同意嗎?你們過去都沒有修正嗎?有 報告委員我們臺中建議會依照我們保外意志的審核基準跟管理辦法以及基準來做相關的修正所以呢 修正之後的結果呢陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所定的審核基準的辦法嗎?"},{"start":331.943,"end":349.798,"text":"她是日常生活所必須嗎?參加國慶大典是她日常生活所必須嗎?擔任她的女兒的訴訟代理人是主持廣播節目是跟她生活有關嗎?是,臺中建議會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的遺囑"},{"start":350.759,"end":370.517,"text":"包括他的出遊黃遊去參他是醫組上面認為對他的治療是有正面因應的好所以呢治療到現在10年了確實是頗有成效他是完全恢復正常這樣的情況之下為什麼他可以不重返回到監獄裡面去服刑"},{"start":372.099,"end":396.158,"text":"全國人民都在看都在看你法務部怎麼做報告委員陳水扁的身心狀況他還是有必要再做職能治療的他不是說已經我一直說他未來出獄之後他還要這個工作嗎事實證明他的職能恢復的很好啊還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊"},{"start":398.351,"end":419.89,"text":"主長您今天說這句話您都不覺得慚愧嗎?你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人在保外就醫的期間他的死亡率有多高?你知道嗎?我們常常看到新聞保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一兩個月的時間可能就往生了"},{"start":421.804,"end":424.325,"text":"報告委員我們委員應該有收到我們的數據我們累積今年總共有499位在外面保外遺址那今年累積到9月份有129人死亡"},{"start":446.277,"end":468.442,"text":"我希望矯正署法務部這裡你們可以把保外就醫的這個受刑人他們出獄的治療的期間還有什麼時候回去以及他的死亡是出獄他的保外就醫在外面多久的時間之內他就過就是就往生你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚"},{"start":469.704,"end":489.543,"text":"本席昨天研究了這張表我看了很久我後來今天重新計算我告訴你大概就是像是人權促進會講的啦出去一半以上五六成的這個保衛就醫的受刑人都會往生而且事實上本來就是他如果不是很嚴重的疾病你戒護就醫就可以了啊"},{"start":493.479,"end":503.623,"text":"講證書臺中監獄乃至於這個政部長我真的希望你們能夠把司法的公平正義隨時要放在心裡放在你們的腦海裡啊今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓可能慶仇會也忘記了也淡忘了全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯他被判刑20年"},{"start":519.827,"end":541.864,"text":"為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久而我們的檢察官也沒有主動的向法院提起說要繼續審判這法務部司理也失職檢察官怎麼失職這個停審的事件那個臺北地檢署有多次的發函敦請法院要開始麻煩請把這個數據給我"},{"start":544.206,"end":551.007,"text":"至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職這是很嚴重的問題我們刑法裡面其實都有處罰濫權不起訴或不處罰或不執行處罰的罪那這個相關的數據我就在跟我們在書面今天講到這個事情其實我真的認為全台灣的人民都在看"},{"start":569.195,"end":595.466,"text":"我已經不止一次的從我擔任立法委員以來我就一直很在意這個事情為什麼 如果說是認為陳水扁他之前當過總統那現在都民進黨執政已經前面8年接下來未來4年那念在過去的情分上總統就給他特赦啊 我也沒有意見啊但是在沒有特赦的情況之下為什麼可以容許一個"},{"start":598.119,"end":621.235,"text":"這個保外就醫長達10年的這個受刑人貪污犯．可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典．說不過去了．對不對．大法官他這個做了死刑核限的．有條件核限．設了那麼多的門檻．這已經引起了這個民情的重分．我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是．"},{"start":622.423,"end":634.905,"text":"你知道網路上面怎麼講嗎10月10號是我們的國慶日沒有錯全部的人都很開心都要慶祝這個國慶日但同時也是司法的這個司法支持日啊很難想像這樣的一個這麼明顯的一個受刑人貪污犯竟然可以後面做的事司法院院長還有法務部部長情何以堪"},{"start":653.285,"end":677.185,"text":"好我本來還有準備另外一題不過沒關係我就等到下一次我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以呢將這個保外就醫的受刑人就是如同你們是表格上面所寫的再多增加幾個類這個這個項目他保外就醫的每平均大家的時間是多少然後多少的時間之內就會往生"},{"start":679.5,"end":679.6,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時6分）召委好，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好。首先，我想請教部長，上星期的國慶日您有去參加總統府前的國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：您當時坐在哪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我坐的地區是往北……"],["翁委員曉玲：是在主要的貴賓席嗎？VVIP的貴賓席嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，貴賓席，跟各部會首長坐在一起。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想請問一下，您當天與貪污犯陳水扁同臺，您內心的感受是如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我是沒有注意到……"],["翁委員曉玲：您沒有注意到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個後來是……"],["翁委員曉玲：陳水扁當天是參加國慶大典，然後……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在新聞有看到，但是我沒有看他坐在哪裡。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您不知道他要參加國慶大會的活動嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是有這個訊息說會參加國慶。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這個事情你有同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他事前有向矯正署、臺中監獄申請核准，可以參加國慶大會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是臺中監獄在做處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：矯正署不知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是不是請矯正署代為回答，好嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，今天周署長有來是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，來。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們臺中監獄每個月都會派員過去探視。針對國慶，陳水扁本身在9月24號的時候，臺中監獄有特別叮嚀他，有相關活動務必要事先來報告，在9號……"],["翁委員曉玲：他有事先報告嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：那時候還沒有。臺中監獄在10月9號的時候有主動掌握了陳水扁要出席10月10號的國慶大典，所以我們臺中監獄也有派專人到場蒐證。據初步的了解，因為這是慶籌會──國慶籌備委員會的一個邀請卡，而且總統府也有專人打電話給陳水扁先生，要慶祝國家的生日。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，簡單來說，就是因為總統說要邀陳水扁出席，所以臺中監獄雖然前一天就掌握了資訊，可是沒有辦法，還是只能夠陪同去蒐證，然後也沒有直接告訴陳水扁，你不能夠參加國慶大會，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄是有勸導說是不是可以不要去，但是陳水扁是……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我必須要講，這件事情在本席的眼裡，我認為它就是司法最大的恥辱。當天陳水扁坐在VVIP的貴賓席上面，後面是司法院院長，然後部長您雖不是在正中間的，但也在主席臺旁邊的貴賓席，您怎麼可能會不知道陳水扁參加國慶大典？一個貪污犯跟我們現在司法機關最重要的兩位首長同臺，狠狠地將司法尊嚴踩在腳下，這不是司法最大的挫敗跟恥辱嗎？我必須說本席非常在意的，就是司法的公平正義，我希望我們臺灣、中華民國是法治國家，而不是權貴治國啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，可以容我回答嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請說。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，這次陳水扁出席國慶大典，他是由慶籌會來邀請的，而且是經過核定。"],["翁委員曉玲：慶籌會有慶籌會的角色，但是你們可以不同意，是不是？過去你們有同意過嗎？好，我們看下一頁。基本上，對於陳水扁，他已經保外就醫將近10年，現在已經延長39次了，我不知道臺中監獄這10年來，是對於陳水扁的表現視若無睹嗎？他可以主持廣播節目，他可以代理他女兒去當訴訟的律師，然後參加各式各樣的活動，甚至還參加國慶大典，在陳水扁的眼裡，他會認為你們會不同意嗎？你們過去都沒有蒐證嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：有，報告委員，我們臺中監獄會依照我們保外醫治的審核基準跟管理辦法以及醫囑……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們看下一頁，審核基準是怎麼規定？"],["周署長輝煌：來做相關的蒐證。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以蒐證之後的結果呢？陳水扁的這些行為符合你們自己所訂的審核基準辦法嗎？他是日常生活所必須嗎？參加國慶大典也是他日常生活所必須嗎？擔任他女兒的訴訟代理人、主持廣播節目，是跟他生活有關嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄會參考高雄義大跟高雄長庚醫院的醫囑，包括他的出遊、訪友、聚餐……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以如果這些醫生做了假醫囑，你們都不管嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：醫囑上面認為對他的治療是有正面意義。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以呢？他治療到現在10年了，確實是頗有成效，他是完全恢復正常，在這樣的情況之下，為什麼他可以不重返、回到監獄裡面去服刑？全國人民都在看，都在看你法務部怎麼做。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，陳水扁的身心狀況，他還是有必要再做職能治療的，他不是已經完全恢復到一般正常人的狀態。"],["翁委員曉玲：你的意思是說他未來出獄之後，他還要工作嗎？事實證明他的職能恢復得很好啊！還幫他的女兒去當訴訟律師啊！署長，您今天說這句話，你都不覺得慚愧嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們所了解……"],["翁委員曉玲：你曉得現在保外就醫的受刑人，在外保外就醫期間，他的死亡率有多高，你知道嗎？我們常常看到新聞，保外就醫的受刑人可能短短一、兩個月的時間就往生了。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：從你們自己做的報告裡面，我告訴你，大概一半以上的保外就醫受刑人在保外就醫期間就過世了。"],["周署長輝煌：委員應該有收到我們的數據，我們累計到今年總共有499位在外面保外醫治，累計到9月份有129人死亡。"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，你們那個數字，我現在要講的就是，我希望矯正署、法務部這裡，你們可以把保外就醫的受刑人，他們出獄治療的期間，還有什麼時候回去，以及他的死亡是在保外就醫多久的時間之內就往生，你們要把這些數據全部講得清清楚楚。本席昨天研究了你這張表，我看了很久，我後來今天重新計算，我告訴你，大概就像是人權促進會講的啦，出去一半以上，五、六成的保外就醫受刑人都會往生，而且事實上本來他如果不是很嚴重的疾病，你戒護就醫就可以了啊！矯正署、臺中監獄乃至於鄭部長，我真的希望你們能夠隨時把司法的公平正義放在心裡，放在你們的腦海裡啊！今天為什麼陳水扁的這個事情會讓……可能慶籌會也忘記了，也淡忘了，全社會的人都淡忘了他是一個貪污犯，他被判刑20年，為什麼到現在法院可以停審這麼久？而我們的檢察官也沒有主動地向法院提起說要繼續審判？法務部是不是也失職，檢察官有沒有失職？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個停審的事件，臺北地檢署有多次的發函，敦請法院要開始……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩請把這個數據給我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，另外……"],["翁委員曉玲：至少以後我不會誤會說地檢署失職，對不對？這是很嚴重的問題，我們刑法裡面其實都有濫權、不起訴、不處罰或不執行處罰的罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個相關的數據，我們再用書面跟……"],["翁委員曉玲：今天講到這個事情，其實我真的認為全臺灣的人民都在看，我已經不只一次了，從我擔任立法委員以來，我就一直很在意這個事情，為什麼？如果認為陳水扁他之前當過總統，現在民進黨執政，前面已經有8年，接下來未來還有4年，念在過去的情分上，總統就給他特赦，我也沒有意見啊！但是在沒有特赦的情況之下，為什麼容許一個保外就醫長達10年的受刑人、貪污犯，可以參加各式各樣的活動慶典？說不過去啦！對不對？大法官他做了死刑有條件合憲，設了那麼多的門檻，這已經引起了民情眾憤，我相信陳水扁的事情同樣也是。你知道網路上面怎麼講嗎？10月10號是我們的國慶日，沒有錯，全部的人都很開心，要慶祝國慶日，但同時也是司法之恥日啊！很難想像這麼明顯的受刑人、貪污犯，竟然後面坐的是司法院院長還有法務部長，情何以堪？我本來還有準備另外一題，不過沒關係，我就等到下一次，我希望法務部還有矯正署你們可以將保外就醫的受刑人，如同你們現在表格上面所寫的，再多增加幾個項目，保外就醫平均的時間是多少，然後多少的時間之內就會往生，對不對？很多的數據資料都要公開，要讓民眾了解你們到底做了些什麼，每一次為什麼可以核准他在外面活動，這些資訊難道不應該公開嗎？麻煩你們一個月之內給我一份報告，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：那麼請部長會後提供，謝謝翁委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","接下來請洪委員孟楷質詢，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}