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謝謝主席那請一下我們何部長好 有請何部長你好部長我請問一下那個中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通你知不知道這家公司"},{"start":29.965,"end":48.913,"text":"因為他這個針對勞工爭議的問題之前也要上媒體好像上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議他們說從7月開始他們就被中斷了傳言的勞健保而且長時間也不再派任他們到"},{"start":50.014,"end":54.358,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就:「如何提升國內薪資水準．落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益。」"},{"start":71.85,"end":92.887,"text":"呃那個這個跟定期或不定期無關我們那個他那個勞保主要是他那個勞保中斷保的問題啦那因為我們當時呃勞保局有確實明確的告訴他在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保不能再嘿就是就就"},{"start":94.188,"end":120.785,"text":"就是沒有契約關係啦因為這個部分之前我們那個交通委員魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長所以他說也很明確講他這個航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約是由勞資雙方來決議那現在我想請問一下我們今天是勞保司司長來嘛是吧"},{"start":122.708,"end":148.083,"text":"我們市長對那你看一下針對中鋼運通其實他一直以來在今年7月之前他的勞健保都是一直持續加保不管這個船員是在岸還是離岸一直都在投保的對不對他這個是對沒有錯那也表示說是他們資方主動替他們加保了"},{"start":148.303,"end":173.448,"text":"所以也表示中央運通一直都有在持續加保也就是說他一直都有持續加保所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係是沒有問題的吧他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍對但是他一直都有保勞健保嘛所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保是不是一定也要從這邊退保所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的啊"},{"start":174.168,"end":203.032,"text":"對那個是他們確實有存在這樣的狀態所以一直有保勞健保所以他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎一直在那邊保勞健保那是兩件事那是兩件事我們只管勞保條例這個部分好那重點所以他一直有保勞健保那對中央運動這些員工來講他認為他們這個是不定期契約我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊不委員他們是定期契約或不定期契約不是勞動部界定的"},{"start":204.379,"end":214.767,"text":"那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身因為特別法優於普通法啦他不是我勞基法主管的範圍啦那勞動企業的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎不是就是這個船員的勞動企業是船員法這個特別法去認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我"},{"start":229.304,"end":248.412,"text":"所以傳言法不是對傳言法是交通部航港局主管的那可是他這個是勞工啊他也算是勞工啊對他是勞工沒有錯可是他不是勞基法我這邊管的員工啦我管勞工啦那所以勞基法第9條你的意思說勞基法這個第9條這個勞動契約的規範"},{"start":252.908,"end":280.665,"text":"不包含傳援這些勞工嗎?第9條是一個普遍的陳述嘛它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述傳援法它會有它的特別規定我再講一遍法律原則是特別法優於普通法所以傳援法優於勞基法優先適用於傳援所以傳援它的勞僱關係的界定必須從傳援法去處理那它這個傳援法它一直保有這個勞健保難道它不算它的勞工嗎?"},{"start":281.704,"end":301.181,"text":"啊?不算誰的勞工?不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎?他是中鋼運通的勞工啊可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何?那是交通部、航港局依據傳言法要去認定的,不是我那他現在找勞動部,勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎?因為我們,而且他們都在訴訟中,我們只能關懷"},{"start":303.642,"end":329.895,"text":"所以我請問一下我們勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於我們勞動部管轄認定的嗎有啊我們在勞保這個關於他斷保的事情我們很明確的告訴他們你下了船你就是關於勞保這件事因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已對我們有告訴他下了船就是那個就是要去別的地方加保啊"},{"start":330.655,"end":344.883,"text":"我們這是有明確告訴中央運動的對啊所以他這個定期契約不定期契約我們勞動部沒有辦法貫典不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦那所以我們勞基法第9條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉"},{"start":346.497,"end":365.248,"text":"對阿是阿因為這是一個普通法我們勞基法是一個普通法所以我的意思是說他要依據傳言法去看是否傳言法有去定義他的定期契約或不定期契約所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候我們勞動部有明確告知他們說這些傳言"},{"start":368.571,"end":386.753,"text":"針對勞動企業的認定,傳言法是不是由勞動部來...我們都...面對他們都講得很清楚,因為我們必須依法行政,那真的是我們的困難。他一直要求我們要...要求中央運動無條件地去幫他們付薄喔,那事實上不是我能處理的。"},{"start":387.874,"end":413.535,"text":"所以我現在也希望說勞動部針對這一部分針對他們的權責各方面認定與否希望能夠很明確告知他們不然他們一直都認定說這個勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定不管是定期不定期勞動部應該是要去認定不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嗎"},{"start":416.057,"end":436.512,"text":"這個我們跟他們講過啦,其實講過耶所以我希望部長很明確的告知,不然他們變成到這一部分,他們一直認為說勞動部基本上在推卸責任,變成勞動部針對這勞基法,定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定,居然交給法院去認定"},{"start":438.612,"end":459.449,"text":"好那這部分我希望還是說清楚講明白也不要搞得曖昧不清沒有曖昧不清其實我們講得很清楚好謝謝謝謝那還有針對我們勞保年金我們現在看這個勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大那也看一下明年度我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1300億元"},{"start":463.456,"end":466.158,"text":"然後這6年來我們看一下我們6年我們勞動部撥補預算金大概達到3870億然後部長在接受訪問的時候也有講說要持續撥補確保制度的持續穩健運作所以"},{"start":486.697,"end":509.696,"text":"這樣也意味著我們往後這個撥補應該就是變成常態化了是的對嘛那如果如果居然已經撥補是常態化那而且我們現在朝野很多立委其實不分藍綠都已經有提案希望把這個撥補法制化那部長你支持這個撥補法制化嗎我支持啊"},{"start":510.666,"end":525.952,"text":"所以部長也願意嘛那我想了解一下當然是支持的不過我要跟委員就是說撥補法制的話我們已經在實踐了那我請問一下行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎"},{"start":526.952,"end":552.149,"text":"委員 我們用行政作為在實踐的那立法院的要修法案我們都支持都支持嗎?所以各委員提的版本其實基本上部長也都希望支持希望法治化我只支持那單一條文希望法治化就是政府附最終撥補責任那一條而已其他我保留所以我們也希望召委能夠盡快來排審"},{"start":553.959,"end":559.604,"text":"這個只有那一條我是在建立我希望委員您能夠幫忙我們也不要因為省的那一條砍年金的訴求又出來然後又要我們砍年金這我們幫不到我是說針對撥補常態化居然已經是常態化已經是每年在做"},{"start":575.757,"end":590.535,"text":"所以我們說居然是常態化就寧可這樣我們就修改給它法制化嘛如果只有那一條是OK的對 針對法制化所以針對法制化如果法制化通過部長也當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去"},{"start":592.037,"end":603.225,"text":"那就是 那就取決於政府的財政能力了就不要常常都用撥補 法制化的目的就是編列預算委員 那是同一件事政府負最終撥補責任就是撥補的這一個預算"},{"start":607.709,"end":627.004,"text":"我們現在已經在實踐了但是我的意思是說不要每年都用撥補的嘛你為什麼不給他法制化沒有就是撥補啊對啊就編列預算進去嘛對啊法制化就是編列預算那我早就已經在編預算了對啊所以基本上也支持我們委員提案給他法制化嘛"},{"start":627.584,"end":646.641,"text":"這個我是支持的我只是說單一那一條而已就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條所以我們現在擔心不要到時候法制化你看現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊你看禁法補償也已經通過法制化通過以後也不編預算會不會到時候我們這個"},{"start":648.657,"end":666.447,"text":"這個法治化以後他這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦啊不可能啦委員你想想看沒有法治化我們都在撥補了更何況是法治化所以一定會撥補嘛對不對一定會一定會不管有沒有入法我們都有在一定會常態性撥補對啊所以我們是真的是希望就是委員我真的在強調"},{"start":667.708,"end":686.816,"text":"不要因為修了這一條,又要我們砍年金啦,這個沒有沒有,我們就是針對,我們是希望這個撥補給他,既然你已經說是常態,我們就給他正常法制化,也希望這個經費都能夠正常來運作,所以當然也要編列啊,對不對?"},{"start":688.016,"end":702.849,"text":"當然一定所以我們真的也為我們廣大的勞工來感謝部長啦也希望能夠實施我們賴總統捍衛勞工的決心希望這個部分我們能夠給他盡快法制化好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝部長謝謝圖文委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時54分）好，謝謝主席，請一下我們何部長。"],["主席：好，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我請問一下，中鋼旗下有一個百分之百持股的子公司叫中鋼運通，你知不知道這家公司？"],["何部長佩珊：知道。"],["涂委員權吉：它因為勞工爭議的問題在之前躍上媒體，好像工會在上個禮拜也有到勞動部去抗議，他們說從7月開始船員的勞健保就被中斷了，而且長時間也不再派任他們到船上工作，現在這些臺灣的船員大概有300個以上的家庭受影響，針對這個部分，我們也有去了解，交通部航港局說依船員法規範沒有一定要簽定期契約，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：這個跟定期或不定期無關，主要是他那個勞保斷保的問題啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對。"],["何部長佩珊：當時勞保局有明確的告訴他，在下船的時候就是必須去別的地方加保，就是沒有契約關係，我們勞保局是有明確的這樣答復。"],["涂委員權吉：這個部分之前我們交通委員會的魯明哲委員也有去詢問過局長，他也很明確的講，航港局並沒有行政指導說一定要用定期的契約，是由勞資雙方來決議，現在我想請問一下，今天是勞保司司長來，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是司長。"],["涂委員權吉：你看一下，中鋼運通其實在今年7月之前，他的勞健保都是一直持續加保，不管船員是在岸還是離岸，一直都在投保的，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，沒有錯，因為在之前是資方主動替他們加保的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以表示中鋼運通一直都有在持續加保，也就是說，他一直都有持續加保，所以他一直都保有這個勞僱關係，這是沒有問題的吧？"],["何部長佩珊：他的勞僱關係不在我們界定的範圍，我們沒有針對這個去做……"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是他一直都有保勞健保，所以他今天如果要到別家公司加保，是不是一定也要從這邊退保？所以他一直都在這邊保勞健保是沒有錯的。"],["何部長佩珊：對，他們確實有存在這樣的狀態。"],["涂委員權吉：既然一直有保勞健保，那他這個勞僱關係難道不存在嗎？有一直在那邊保勞健保。"],["何部長佩珊：那是兩件事，我們只管勞保條例這個部分。"],["涂委員權吉：好，重點是他一直有保勞健保，對中鋼運通這些員工來講，他們認為他們這個是不定期契約，我們這樣看起來也是蠻合理的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不，委員，他們是定期契約或不定期契約並不是勞動部界定的。"],["涂委員權吉：不是勞動部界定？"],["何部長佩珊：那是航港局就船員法他們自己本身……因為特別法優於普通法，這不是我勞基法主管的範圍，船員不是我勞基法主管的範圍。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那我請問一下，勞動契約的認定難道不是勞動部的職責嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，就是這個船員的勞動契約是依船員法這個特別法去認定的，是由其主管機關認定的，不是我。"],["涂委員權吉：所以船員法不是？"],["何部長佩珊：對，船員法是交通部航港局主管的。"],["涂委員權吉：可是他是勞工，他也算是勞工啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對，他是勞工沒有錯，可是他不是我勞基法這邊管的勞工啦！"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以你的意思是說勞基法第九條關於勞動契約的規範不包含船員這些勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，第九條是一個普遍的陳述，它是定期契約跟不定期契約的陳述，船員法有它的特別規定，我再講一遍，法律原則是特別法優於普通法，因為船員法優於勞基法，優先適用於船員，所以船員他們勞僱關係的界定必須從船員法去處理，不是我這裡。"],["涂委員權吉：那要依船員法，可是他一直保有勞健保，難道他不算它的勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不算誰的勞工？"],["涂委員權吉：不算中鋼運通的勞工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他是中鋼運通的勞工，可是他跟中鋼運通之間的勞僱關係如何，那是交通部航港局依據船員法要去認定的，不是我。"],["涂委員權吉：那他現在找勞動部，勞動部沒有辦法幫他處理這個事情嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為他們都在訴訟中，我們只能關懷。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，勞動部有明確的告知中鋼運通說他們是不屬於勞動部管轄、認定的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有啊！我們在勞保方面關於他斷保的事情，我們很明確的告訴他們，你下了船，你就是……關於勞保這件事，因為他只有主動問我們勞保這件事而已，對，我們有告訴他下了船就是要去別的地方加保，我們這是有明確告訴中鋼運通的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以它這個是定期契約或不定期契約，我們勞動部沒有辦法認定？"],["何部長佩珊：這不是我這邊管轄的範圍啦！"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們勞基法第九條第一項勞動契約這個認定不包含他們囉？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是啊！因為這是一個普通法，我們勞基法是一個普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我的意思是說……"],["何部長佩珊：他要依據船員法去看，除非船員法有去定義他是定期契約或不定期契約，他要……"],["涂委員權吉：所以他們上禮拜去抗議的時候，我們勞動部有明確告知，針對這些船員勞動契約的認定是依據船員法，不是由勞動部來判定。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們面對他們都講得很清楚，因為必須依法行政，這真的是我們的困難，他一直要求中鋼運通無條件去幫他們復保，事實上那不是我能處理的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我現在也希望勞動部針對這一部分，在他們權利各方面的認定與否，希望能夠很明確告知他們，不然，他們一直都認為勞動契約應該也是由勞動部主管機關來認定，不管是定期、不定期，勞動部應該是要去認定，不然你如何去執行後面有沒有定期契約跟不定期契約的問題嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個我們跟他們講過啦，其實講過欸！"],["涂委員權吉：所以我希望部長很明確的告知，不然這部分，他們一直認為勞動部基本上在推卸責任，變成勞動部針對勞基法定期契約跟不定期契約都沒有辦法去認定，居然交給法院去認定！"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分我希望還是說清楚、講明白，也不要搞得曖昧不清。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有曖昧不清，其實我們講得很清楚，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：還有針對我們勞保年金，勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大，看一下明年度，我們是不是預計一樣要撥補1,300億元？"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們明年編1,300億沒錯！"],["涂委員權吉：然後這六年來，我們看一下，勞動部撥補預算金額大概達到3,870億嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：然後部長在接受訪問的時候，也講要持續撥補，確保制度的持續穩健運作，所以這樣也意味著往後撥補應該是變成常態化了？"],["何部長佩珊：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！如果撥補已經是常態化，而且我們現在朝野很多立委，其實不分藍綠都已經有提案，希望把撥補法制化，部長，你支持撥補法制化嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我支持啊，對啊，我支持！"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長也願意嘛，那我想瞭解一下，我們行政院……"],["何部長佩珊：當然是支持的，不過委員，撥補法制化，我們已經在實踐了。"],["涂委員權吉：我請問一下，行政院現在有提自己的法案版本嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們用行政作為在實踐了，至於立法院要修法案，我們都支持。"],["涂委員權吉：都支持嘛！所以各委員提的版本，其實基本上部長也都支持，希望法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我只支持那單一條條文喔！"],["涂委員權吉：希望法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條而已，其他我保留。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們也希望召委能夠儘快來排審，儘快來處理這個法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：如果只有那一條，我是樂見。我希望委員能夠幫忙，我們也不要因為審了那一條，砍年金的訴求又出來，然後又要我們砍年金，這我們辦不到。"],["涂委員權吉：不會，我是說針對……"],["何部長佩珊：這個我要拜託大院幫忙。"],["涂委員權吉：針對撥補常態化，既然已經是常態化，已經是每年在做，所以我們說既然是常態化，寧可就修改給它法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：如果只有那一條是OK的。"],["涂委員權吉：對，針對法制化，所以如果法制化通過，部長當然也希望我們都能夠編列預算進去。"],["何部長佩珊：那就取決於政府的財政能力啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！就不要常常都用撥補，法制化的目的就是編列預算啦！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那是同一件事……"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，就把它編……"],["何部長佩珊：政府負最終撥補責任，就是撥補的這一個預算，我們現在已經在實踐了，那是同一件事情。"],["涂委員權吉：我的意思是不要每年都用撥補的嘛，你為什麼不給它法制化啦！"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，就是撥補啊！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，就編列預算進去嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對啊，法制化就是編列預算，我早就已經在編預算了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以基本上也支持我們委員提案，給它法制化嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：這個我是支持的，我只是說單一那一條而已，就是政府負最終撥補責任那一條。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在擔心，不要到時候法制化……你看，現在我們也覺得搞不清楚啊！你看禁伐補償也已經法制化，通過以後也不編預算，會不會到時候我們法制化後，這預算萬一不編列的話怎麼辦呢？"],["何部長佩珊：不可能啦，委員你想想看，沒有法制化我們都在撥補了，更何況是法制化。"],["涂委員權吉：所以一定會撥補嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：一定會，一定會，不管有沒有入法，我們都一定會常態性撥補。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們真的是希望……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我真的再次強調，不要因為修了這一條，又要我們砍年金啦！這個我絕對辦不到。"],["涂委員權吉：沒有，沒有，我們是希望這個撥補既然已經是常態，我們就給它正常法制化，也希望經費都能夠正常來運作，所以當然也要編列啊，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：當然一定。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們真的也為廣大的勞工來感謝部長啦……"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：也希望能夠實施我們賴總統捍衛勞工的決心。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：希望這個部分，我們能夠儘快法制化。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員發言，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}