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.706,"text":"是,那我不知道說勞動部針對這一部分,你們要怎麼介紹?謝謝委員,確實是講到這個您來自那個我想彰化地區那個地方我覺得在我們農村尤其是我們農村真的是勞動力很缺乏"},{"start":161.37,"end":165.693,"text":"對,所以我們從去年開了一萬兩千名的農業的移工我們在最新的九月二十幾號的跨國勞動力的審查上面我們又再增加了給八千個名額所以現在已經累計有兩萬個農業移工的名額我們允許他進來了"},{"start":181.903,"end":199.912,"text":"那麼我們一方面希望透過這種增加正常就是正式的這樣的合法的移工的這樣的數量然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工能夠逐漸的把它稀釋掉啦那你這樣子之後有比較有比較改善嗎有有有改善蠻多的對"},{"start":203.154,"end":231.93,"text":"那其次是委員跟委員報告您講的原來的失聯移工的是否讓他就地轉正啊這確實是一個社會上有在討論的議題那委員這我們其實目前我們正在也在考慮這討論這一個就業服務法的修正關於這一個失聯移工的這一個就地轉正的是否啦是否就地轉正的這個議題我們也正在思考當中"},{"start":232.35,"end":248.82,"text":"我覺得要去正視這個問題要不然它這個數字就是一直在那邊整個社會上就確實有這樣的失聯移工在那裡而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡只是可能地方也許有勞務的需求"},{"start":252.182,"end":267.724,"text":"所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦另外一個議題就是我們剛剛有幾位委員有特別提到就是我們這個女性移工進來之後她如果懷孕那懷孕之後確實有時候她如果"},{"start":268.625,"end":289.172,"text":"顧主他會覺得說我原本是要你是有勞動力的移工進來幫忙的那你現在懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況那也許會不會就因為這樣子然後被解雇那我希望就是說這個問題確實也存在我之前碰到一位顧主"},{"start":290.632,"end":306.442,"text":"他就請了女性的移工嘛那她就懷孕了那懷孕之後其實這個女性移工她自己也很會保護自己啦她就跟老闆說她懷孕了那確實也真的懷孕了那懷孕之後她說她原本的工作她不能再做"},{"start":307.563,"end":307.884,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":327.499,"end":348.393,"text":"那你現在這樣子我工廠裡面就少了一個人力那你還這樣子我讓你做最輕鬆的工作你還這樣子所以我覺得這個勞動部應該也要去正視這樣的問題未來如果這樣子的狀況那僱主應該也有權利來保障他自己的權益當然就是委員"},{"start":350.454,"end":363.528,"text":"我覺得就是說在這個方面我們也要強調啦雙方可以合一解約的那麼合一解約我們會提供給牢固雙方同時的法律輔助啦我們未來這麼做就是說"},{"start":365.79,"end":388.544,"text":"除了保護移工的合法的權利之外我們對雇主的這樣的聘僱權也是也應該要有所那個幫助目前有對我們也是要應該要可以告訴雇主就是說這是可以合意解約的那麼就是說他因為他合意解約事實上其實"},{"start":390.05,"end":404.744,"text":"如果他說他不做了嘛他不做了嘛那那個部分的話像這種個案我跟委員報告因為這種情況確實實務上存在因為雙方都其實都不可規則"},{"start":405.925,"end":435.259,"text":"那現在其實地方政府因為透過勞資的協調其實大部分就是雙方就是合意解約了那合意解約可能僱主不會影響因為他就是想說他解約完他的那個名額還是保留他可以繼續聘沒有問題那移工本身因為他是懷孕那基本上我們因為性別平等公務法還是要保障所以如果必要我們就會有安置保護那等到確定他可以工作的時候就轉換僱主這雙方的權益都把它確保"},{"start":436.34,"end":459.82,"text":"當然我們今天會特別討論這個就是說女性的移工她在台灣的權益我們當然是保護嘛那如果說對雇主也是造成一些困擾的話我覺得雇主的權益我們也是要把他兼顧啊所以我們當然就是說勞動部針對這一部分我們也希望其實很多人會覺得說為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多"},{"start":461.281,"end":477.349,"text":"事業移工這麼多那正式的有的要聘僱的話確實有一些困難比如說現在一些這個鄉下地區可能到了農忙的時候他如果要再去申請一個勞僱那個移工的話確實有時候會覺得還蠻麻煩的"},{"start":478.51,"end":484.577,"text":"邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就 «如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能．並備質詢與申訴處理效能、行政院人事行政總處就"},{"start":495.129,"end":505.193,"text":"從疫情之後失聯移工已經到8萬多人這真的是太可怕了不過委員其實現在失聯移工是下降的我們過去疫情期間都有3%到4%現在只有2%有下降有下降"},{"start":509.394,"end":510.275,"text":"兼顧移工權益、保障移工權益"},{"start":525.13,"end":539.917,"text":"讓他可以在原本的僱主那邊可以好好的工作而不是因為任何的問題然後就逃跑這個我覺得這個是我們勞動部需要去做的另外我要今天要另外一個議題就是公務單位的這個勞工"},{"start":541.218,"end":564.477,"text":"公務單位裡面的勞工的權益問題就是說我想知道就是說像部長你的司機也好他應該也是這個勞保勞基法公有司機都是適用勞基法那我想請教就是說在我們的這個公務單位裡面的勞工如果"},{"start":565.978,"end":592.099,"text":"這個單位他可能有一些關係那不需要這個勞工了那你們有這種之前就是說非自願離職有那種非自願離職對機關內的適用勞基法的這種勞工他的非自願離職的處理是嗎是你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎我知道好像全部都是要求他們要自願離職"},{"start":596.508,"end":603.876,"text":"能不能請人總夫人市長這邊是不是可以先有一些回答,我再來補充"},{"start":608.294,"end":632.388,"text":"是,報告委員,因為移工工友他還是適用勞基法,像這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走是,那現在機關裡面的勞工,機關裡面的勞工如果他非自願離職可是機關,目前好像是機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽"},{"start":635.249,"end":645.561,"text":"目前是不是這樣?一般機關裡面當然都希望勞工可以留下來比較不會有時候讓他廢置業離職有時候因為首長更換嘛跟著首長進來的"},{"start":652.061,"end":674.383,"text":"那個公友不會像那個跟隨所長進來啊?不會,他機要才會對,沒有,我講的就是說公務單位裡面的勞工就是說目前我們的狀況我們目前的狀況好像就我所知啦就只有自願離職,沒有那種非自願離職是不是有這種狀況?"},{"start":677.434,"end":694.893,"text":"這個目前我們是沒有去調查這些狀況你們沒有去調查這種狀況嗎那是不是可以請這個這個富人市長或是勞動部就機關裡面的勞工好的勞工勞動權益是不是就這部分可以做一些調查好我們去了解一下可以嗎"},{"start":701.909,"end":715.42,"text":"夫人市長你先回座我想請這個部長就剛剛淑芬委員也有特別提到我們治理機關裡面的這個勞務承攬的這樣的一個工作這個薪資都比"},{"start":719.783,"end":744.921,"text":"當然就是說勞動部是要保障所有的勞工的權益不論是你一般的這種勞工或者是公務單位裡面的勞工我覺得這個都是我們這個勞動部要去保障的所以我也希望就是說我們今天提出來這些議題希望部長能夠正視那我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞動勞工的權益的這個部分我也希望你能夠做一個調查"},{"start":745.461,"end":765.74,"text":"可以嗎?好,我來跟人總商量好嗎?是我來跟人總商量,看要怎麼處理因為委員,他那裡面齁公務機關裡面有這種職籍關係他未必會適用勞基法裡面的那樣的勞資不是啊,那他就是勞工怎麼會說沒有適用就是所有的勞工就適用勞基法嗎?"},{"start":767.121,"end":787.218,"text":"對,可是因為在公務機關裡面那個文化是不一樣的沒有這樣的啦我們跟人總來商量好不好,看誰來處理所有的勞工就是適用勞基法嘛那你當然公務單位不是委員,這我要取得行政院這邊的諒解或是人總的同意我才能去介入這樣的東西"},{"start":790.441,"end":807.562,"text":"你是勞動部部長也是保障所有勞工的權益的最高主管每一個機關裡面雖然勞工是適用勞基法可是他的這樣子的包括他的薪資方面各方面是看他的機關的決定"},{"start":809.383,"end":809.603,"text":"好,好,好,謝謝"},{"start":839.824,"end":846.007,"text":"好,謝謝黃學光委員的發言謝謝部長我們下一位請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時6分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我首先就現在移工的問題來請教部長，其實我們在基層看到很多外籍移工或者是落跑移工，這樣講啦，尤其是在鄉下地區養雞、養豬，可能都有失聯移工去幫忙。確實，因為有時候這些農場他們需要人力嘛，所以他們有的真的用了這些失聯移工。我們看到目前臺灣的移工人數也將近八十萬人，而失聯移工有八萬七千多人，如果照這樣算有十分之一的移工進來，然後他可能就跑走了。像這樣的問題，我不知道勞動部針對這個未來要怎麼去解決？甚至這幾天，有人跟我講某一個地方，工廠用了十幾個失聯移工，然後他有報案、有檢舉，結果專勤隊應該也知道有這個狀況，所以我知道這個問題確實是非常的嚴重。我認為不論是內政部或者勞動部，我覺得應該要去正視這個問題，怎麼樣讓這些失聯移工未來不要一直躲在陰暗的角落，怎麼樣讓他變成合法的，或者如果他真的是非法，是不是要讓他出去？所以我覺得這個問題要解決啦！要不然失聯移工確實越來越多，對臺灣也不是很好，我不知道勞動部針對這一部分你們要怎麼解決？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員，委員確實講到……您來自彰化地區，我覺得在我們農村，尤其是我們農村，真的是勞動力很缺乏，所以我們從去年開了1萬2,000名農業的移工，我們在最新九月二十幾號跨國勞動力的審查上面，我們又再增加8,000個名額，所以現在已經累計有2萬個農業移工的名額，我們允許他進來了。我們一方面希望透過增加正式的、合法的移工的數量，然後逐漸的把原來在農村裡面的失聯移工，能夠逐漸的把他稀釋掉啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣子之後，有比較改善嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有改善。"],["黃委員秀芳：有比較改善？"],["何部長佩珊：有，改善滿多的。其次跟委員報告，您講的原來失聯移工是否讓他就地轉正？這確實是一個社會上在討論的議題。委員，其實目前我們也正在考慮討論就業服務法的修正，關於失聯移工是否就地轉正的議題，我們也正在思考當中。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我覺得要正視這個問題，要不然數字就一直在那邊。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：社會上確實有這樣的失聯移工存在，而且我相信很多人都知道這些失聯移工在哪裡……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能地方有勞務的需求。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得真的確實要去正視啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外一個議題，剛剛有幾位委員特別提到女性移工進來之後如果懷孕，懷孕之後確實有雇主會覺得原本移工是有勞動力、是進來幫忙的，懷孕之後可能就會有一些狀況，也許會因為這樣被解僱，這個問題確實也存在。我之前碰到一位雇主，他請了女性移工，女性移工就懷孕了，其實這位移工也很會保護自己，她就跟老闆說她懷孕了，她也確實懷孕了，懷孕之後她說：她原本的工作不能再做。所以老闆就說：妳可以做一些比較輕鬆的工作，可能是打掃等。但她說：這個工作不在她的工作範圍內。所以這位女性移工也讓……"],["何部長佩珊：這位雇主也是非常……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這位女性移工讓雇主火冒三丈……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以他會覺得，這樣他工廠裡面就少了一個人力，移工還這樣子，讓移工做最輕鬆的工作還這樣子……我覺得勞動部應該要正視這樣的問題，未來如果有這樣的狀況，雇主應該也有權利來保障自己的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，我覺得我們在這方面也要強調雙方是可以合意解約的，若合意解約，我們會提供給勞雇雙方同時的法律扶助，我們未來會這麼做，除了保護移工的合法權利之外，我們對雇主的聘僱權也應該要有所幫助。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前，是不是要請署長……"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們也應該要告訴雇主這是可以合意解約的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，他可以怎麼做，如果說……"],["何部長佩珊：因為合意解約事實上……如果他說他不做了，像這種個案……我請署長講一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為這種情況確實實務上存在，因為雙方其實都不可歸責……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：現在地方政府透過勞資的協調，其實雙方大部分就合意解約了，合意解約可能對雇主不會影響，因為他解約完的名額還是保留，他可以繼續聘，沒有問題。因為移工本身是懷孕，基本上依性別平等工作法還是要保障，所以如果必要，我們就會有安置保護。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：等到確定她可以工作之後就轉換雇主。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["蔡署長孟良：雙方的權益都確保，不會影響。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，今天會特別討論這個就是我們當然是保護女性移工在臺灣的權益，如果對雇主造成一些困擾的話，我覺得雇主的權益也是要兼顧啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是、是，當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望勞動部針對這部分……其實很多人會覺得，為什麼現在失聯的移工這麼多？正式要聘僱確實有一些困難，譬如現在一些鄉下地區到了農忙的時候，如果要再去申請一個移工，確實有時候會覺得還滿麻煩的，說實在的，有的可能知道哪裡有失聯移工，他們就自己去聘了，所以我覺得問題確實是存在……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是。"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望勞動部要確實正視這個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為從疫情之後，失聯移工已經到八萬多人，這真的是太可怕了。"],["何部長佩珊：不過，委員，其實現在失聯移工是下降的，過去疫情期間都有3%到4%，現在只有2%。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：有下降、有下降。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：慢慢的會更下降，我們也希望透過引進農村的移工，就是我剛剛講的，已經有2萬名進來了，我們希望能夠透過這樣的方式慢慢降低。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們兼顧移工的權益、保障移工的權益，讓他可以在原本雇主那邊好好工作，而不是因為任何的問題逃跑，我覺得是勞動部需要做的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，好。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，今天還有另外一個議題，就是公務單位裡面的勞工權益問題。我想知道，像部長你的司機也好，他應該也是勞保……"],["何部長佩珊：勞基法，他適用勞基法。"],["黃委員秀芳：勞基法嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：工友、司機都適用勞基法。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我想請教的是，在公務單位裡面的勞工，如果單位可能因為一些關係不需要這個勞工了，你們有資遣？就是非自願離職，有那種……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你是指機關內的？"],["黃委員秀芳：對，機關內的。"],["何部長佩珊：適用勞基法的勞工，他們非自願離職的處理是嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：是，你們有這種非自願離職的處理嗎？我知道的好像全部都是要求他們自願離職。"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道能不能請人總一起？"],["黃委員秀芳：好啊！"],["何部長佩珊：人總副人事長這邊是不是可以先回答？我再來補充。"],["李副人事長秉洲：報告委員，因為技工、工友還是適用勞基法，所以現在這種管理措施還是按照勞基法的規定來走。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，現在機關裡面的勞工如果非自願離職，好像機關都是以自願離職的方式請勞工來簽，目前是不是這種狀況？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般機關當然都希望勞工可以留下來，不會讓他非自願離職，都拜託他們……"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有，有時候因為首長更換，跟著首長進來的……"],["李副人事長秉洲：工友不會跟隨首長進來，機要才會。"],["黃委員秀芳：我講的是公務單位裡面的勞工，就我所知，目前的狀況好像就只有自願離職，沒有非自願離職，是不是有這種狀況？"],["李副人事長秉洲：目前我們沒有去調查這些狀況……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們沒有去調查這種狀況，是不是可以請副人事長或是勞動部就機關內勞工的勞動權益做一些調查？"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，我們去瞭解。"],["黃委員秀芳：可以嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：是，可以。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，副人事長先回座。我想請部長，剛剛淑芬委員也特別提到，你們自己機關內勞務承攬的工作，薪資都比其他……這也是低薪啦，勞動部當然是要保障所有勞工的權益，不論是一般的勞工，或者是公務單位裡面的勞工，我覺得都是勞動部要去保障的，所以我也希望我們今天提出來的這些議題部長能夠正視。我剛剛講的公務機關裡面的勞工權益，我也希望你們能夠做相關調查，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來跟人總商量好嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：我來跟人總商量看看要怎麼處理，因為公務機關裡面有職級關係，未必會適用勞基法那樣的勞資……"],["黃委員秀芳：不是啊，他就是勞工，怎麼會沒有適用？所有的勞工都適用勞基法嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是在公務機關裡面的文化是不一樣的。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有這樣的啦。"],["何部長佩珊：我們跟人總來商量好不好，看如何處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：所有的勞工，就是適用勞基法，當然公務單位……"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我要取得行政院這邊的諒解，或是人總的同意，我才能去介入。"],["黃委員秀芳：你是勞動部部長，也是保障所有勞工權益的最高主管。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我在報告裡面也有講，每一個機關裡面，雖然勞工是適用勞基法，可是他的薪資還有各方面是看他的機關決定，因為公務機關裡面也有不一樣的……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以剛剛淑芬委員為什麼會講，勞動部自己本身就是帶頭低薪啊！"],["何部長佩珊：勞動部這邊我一定會去改善，像勞發署我是可以馬上去改善他的低薪。"],["黃委員秀芳：你是勞動部部長，你應該也要去要求各機關，你開出來的這個缺，承攬業務的這個缺，你不可以低薪嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我們會建議行政院好不好？"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言，謝謝部長。我們下一位請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}