{"error":false,"id":["155705"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155705,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155705","日期":"2024-10-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-20-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-17T11:18:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-17T11:30:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c08b8ebdc8e3065d3ba7220483993be3464761d5dfc4adc96f892b6d7a78c0abd9c4a74a059f27d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:18:11 - 11:30:26","會議時間":"2024-10-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.00971875,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.52409375,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.06909375,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.621593750000002,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.73471875,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.62034375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.42159375,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.97346875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.91284375,"end":54.351593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.37221875,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":59.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.26221875,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.548468750000005,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.953468750000006,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.15596875,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.58971875,"end":84.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.28034375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.68721875000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.67409375000001,"end":123.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.82596875,"end":124.28159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.03409375,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.67534375,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.14221875,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.27721875,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.19659375,"end":157.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.74471875,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.77221875,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.82221875000002,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.16784375,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.97346875000002,"end":187.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.87596875,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.29284375,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.09659375,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.61971875,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.09596875000003,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.01534375,"end":208.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.26846875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.38659375,"end":208.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.37346875,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.52534375000002,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.57596875000002,"end":211.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.72534375,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.77471875,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.87159375000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.30159375000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.96346875,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.06471875000003,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.28409375,"end":243.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.36846875,"end":243.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.38534375,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.70596875,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.72284375,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.85284375,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.14221875000004,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.88034375,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.57096875,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.02596875,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.61596875000004,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.53096875,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.72909375,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.03221875,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.53346875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.37721875,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.50721875,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.03846875,"end":308.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.56534375,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.10096875,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.89409375,"end":310.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.92784375,"end":313.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.48409375,"end":319.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.66534375000003,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.82909375,"end":321.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.12846875,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.03096875,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.06346875,"end":334.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.29096875000005,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.32471875000005,"end":334.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.66221875,"end":339.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.69596875,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.38284375,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.07471875000005,"end":341.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.09159375,"end":341.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.34471875,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.96909375,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.13346875,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.34409375,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.37784375,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.96846875,"end":346.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.80721875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.02659375,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.21221875000003,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.63284375,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.64909375,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.50909375000003,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.70659375,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.43596875000003,"end":379.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.57284375,"end":394.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.66971875,"end":407.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.52846875,"end":427.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.32846875,"end":418.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.03596875000005,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.97159375,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.43471875,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":443.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.61909375000005,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.46971875,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.51971875000004,"end":463.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.57034375,"end":488.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.06784375,"end":466.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.46846875000006,"end":468.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.53721875,"end":487.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.78159375,"end":506.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.79846875000004,"end":490.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.26659375,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.88596875,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.65221875000003,"end":520.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.99596875,"end":522.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.00409375,"end":526.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.6997187500001,"end":528.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.5559687500001,"end":544.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.05971875,"end":563.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.93596875,"end":557.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.6015937500001,"end":560.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4578437499999,"end":572.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.0984687499999,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.7097187500001,"end":571.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.36346875,"end":589.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.3803437500001,"end":574.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.13096875,"end":577.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.26409375,"end":588.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.1753437500001,"end":588.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.0359687499999,"end":601.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.20471875,"end":592.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.86659375,"end":593.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.8147187500001,"end":602.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.04659375,"end":604.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.3203437500001,"end":614.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.92221875,"end":614.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.93909375,"end":615.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.5634687500001,"end":627.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.0478437500001,"end":622.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.9497187500001,"end":628.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.87784375,"end":639.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.76721875,"end":634.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.39096875,"end":639.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.6272187500001,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.6440937500001,"end":639.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.82096875,"end":643.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.78284375,"end":642.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.10346875,"end":645.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.4578437499999,"end":643.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.02721875,"end":645.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.17909375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.19596875,"end":645.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.0734687500001,"end":651.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.54534375,"end":652.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.76846875,"end":655.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.9284687500001,"end":657.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.14346875,"end":659.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.77596875,"end":669.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.9853437500001,"end":676.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.3303437500001,"end":678.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.08534375,"end":681.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.17346875,"end":684.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.12221875,"end":685.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.13909375,"end":685.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.1728437500001,"end":685.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.8984687500001,"end":687.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.21034375,"end":690.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.74596875,"end":702.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.1753437500001,"end":696.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.20909375,"end":696.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.8628437500001,"end":698.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.7822187500001,"end":701.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.4697187500001,"end":702.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.70596875,"end":706.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.0265937500001,"end":703.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.54096875,"end":705.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.94159375,"end":707.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.4097187500001,"end":711.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.39659375,"end":718.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.5984687499999,"end":715.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.3828437500001,"end":720.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.5890937500001,"end":724.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.65596875,"end":726.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.5334687500001,"end":732.22034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.015,"end":4.557,"text":"好,請楊總裁是,請總裁黃委員早是,總裁早,我想剛剛我被記者拉著要問你一個問題雖然我不太喜歡問這種比較不屬於政策的問題希望能夠了解一下包括"},{"start":27.659,"end":34.775,"text":"金融管制這件事情請問賴總統有沒有跟你溝通過?或者是用什麼方式跟你溝通的?"},{"start":36.103,"end":63.989,"text":"我想呢就是說總統講到就是說他也有提到他不是說我們過當沒有所以有幾個委員就講就是說他我記得好像總統是說金融機構所以沒有直接跟你溝通啊沒有他沒有講說我們那個什麼那個說過當沒有沒有這回事好沒有這回事所以以為說你沒有寫LINE也沒有打電話就對了沒有沒有沒有好這"},{"start":65.069,"end":67.401,"text":"以上是記者要問的那接下來是我要問的"},{"start":69.916,"end":96.178,"text":"總裁在我們全環球金融雜誌公布的2024全球央行的總裁評比以前我們都是得A所以這次被降為B家我在我寫了一篇臉書說這是你的非戰之罪我想央行幫執政黨的各部門背了一個很大的黑鍋產生的內憂外患一個是現在號稱國內的金龍海嘯金龍海嘯就是你打房打得太兇了"},{"start":96.658,"end":104.483,"text":"另外就是外患就是對國際金融相關的雜誌評比為必加總裁你要不要說一下你的感想"},{"start":106.206,"end":133.769,"text":"如果說我們就是說是從A降到B加就是說是被黑鉤我覺得這個也是委員對我們的美言不過從我們中央銀行的立場還有我個人的一個立場來看的話我總覺得中央銀行第一個要虛心檢討第二個我們要"},{"start":134.449,"end":151.685,"text":"持續的努力表示說中央銀行還有精進進步的空間對我想我在上個會期就講過其實我覺得重點在於從2020年我們開始第一波信用管制其實到現在已經七波了"},{"start":152.705,"end":176.613,"text":"然後從2022年的相關的房市的狀況房價的狀況其實央行一直希望說總裁也在記者會裡面表示過希望房市能夠軟著路軟著路有兩個條件價格要慢慢往下調炒作要退場總裁七波了價格有沒有慢慢往下調炒作有沒有退場"},{"start":178.255,"end":200.266,"text":"所以這個也就是說我們為什麼我們在第七波為什麼還要第七波就是因為沒有發聲嘛你的目標預期沒有做到嘛所以第七波其實是在收前面的爛攤子我必須要很沉痛的說出來因為我們在今年去應該說大選年我們本來做了一個居住正義很重要的平均地權條例"},{"start":201.924,"end":226.506,"text":"這個政策讓房價暫時抑制了一部分其實只有抑制了兩個月兩個月之後的8月推出了行情案貸款我的天哪房價就再也沒有下來過從相關的這個房屋指數房價指數來說2022年的下半年到今年的9月整整27個月只有兩個月的房租年增率低於2%也就是"},{"start":227.762,"end":234.817,"text":"你剛剛講的價格慢慢往下調沒有發生而且價格往上漲的速度還在不斷提高"},{"start":235.831,"end":257.749,"text":"更快了更快的漲所以總裁這兩個是你要推出第七波信用管制的主要原因對嗎應該是了就是說他的預期我們報告也有講到就是說預期心理非常強所以這個金龍海嘯其實是執政黨以前錯誤矛盾的政策互相推擠的浪花只是灌在楊金龍的頭上"},{"start":258.55,"end":265.755,"text":"但是他有一個很大的問題是他讓房價降不下來建商剛剛講這些小建商每天放這些消息其實當時如果平均地點條例下來之後房價會往下降"},{"start":289.131,"end":313.914,"text":"根您的預期一樣但是新青安讓它止降讓它撐在那裡而且因為我們又有6000多億的錢又投入了房地產市場這才是整個房價必須要用第七波來做的原因不過後來後來院裡面也有救新青安的做的訣竅總裁我的時間有限我只要說有希望你原來預設的目標跟政策方向"},{"start":314.734,"end":338.134,"text":"在你的第七波做不到的話第八波繼續做你的金融海嘯力度可以再大一點否則這個目標永遠達不成我們持續檢討密切關注持續檢討第二個部分就是我們現在很多房貸因為你的相關管制方式很多人帶不到了有沒有發現信貸增加然後流到不動產的狀況"},{"start":341.802,"end":353.848,"text":"我在想應該也會有不過我跟委員報告這個也就是說金管會他也在這一方面他會做精檢我們的精檢處也會做專案精檢就這個部分"},{"start":358.79,"end":375.941,"text":"我想我跟委員報告我們如果要達到你的第一個目標就要禁止信貸進入不動產市場否則你這個信用管制又沒有用我們來注意這個情況專案金檢金管會要做央行我覺得你的政策要落實這是非常重要否則"},{"start":376.681,"end":386.232,"text":"一波兩波七波了也沒有用一定有出了什麼原因接下來是9月我們電價調漲10月16號上路雖然都漲的是產業的電價漲幅到14%產業平均調漲了12%"},{"start":394.722,"end":409.23,"text":"我們之前9月份的禮監事會當時有把這個放進來嗎那時候沒有那時候沒有那現在你現在預計接下去的我們的通膨會受到這個影響有多少沒有很大因為第一個"},{"start":410.31,"end":434.29,"text":"今年如果說以整年來講的話呢我們的估測呢是大概他會有0.125左右的但是那是整年但是呢到就今年來看的話呢今年來看呢他只剩下幾個月所以今年如果再有廠商說因為電價調漲所以他要調漲他的相關商品你覺得合理嗎基本上應該廠商比較不會"},{"start":437.673,"end":442.795,"text":"總裁我想問一下我們對於所謂你3月份的時候是說你那時候升息是因為要抑制國內通膨的預期心理請問我們對於通膨預期心理有做過相關的調查嗎?"},{"start":463.807,"end":487.348,"text":"我們現在呢就開始在就是說對我們不是我們事實上呢我們本身吼也有有一些很多模型在預測就是說欸我們下一個月會多少啊這個整年會多少我們有很多的模型那針對消費者的這個部分呢我們現在是委託中央研究院有相關的數字嗎"},{"start":490.59,"end":506.912,"text":"因為疫情心理就會是你接下去很多貨幣政策的我同意一定要有調查才會有相關的資訊嘛但重點在於說我們現在長期以來穩定物價都是用補貼包括電價"},{"start":508.313,"end":511.817,"text":"我們長期公用政策用補貼的方式其實是對於所謂的真正的價格"},{"start":523.067,"end":544.059,"text":"我們可能一致的價格可是我們產生了更多的內部的成本你同意嗎這個我跟委員報告如果說我個人的看法就譬如像說北捷但是我即使說北捷的這個店就是說它比較長時間有時候把它凍結就是說比較沒有賬"},{"start":545.16,"end":556.295,"text":"我覺得還好,為什麼?因為北捷本身他都賺錢。我這一次說業外收入吧。用公共政策,要用公共政策領導。那這一次台電的這個部分是因為我個人的看法。"},{"start":562.943,"end":573.911,"text":"我的意思只是說你同意長期用價格控制政府補貼的方式來決定市場的機制嗎我們的問題是我們要適度的慢慢短期只能短期來實施這樣的一個這個把這一段期間如果說解決了以後呢我們就要把它放寬就要歐美曾經發生過一模一樣的狀況"},{"start":592.983,"end":613.809,"text":"同樣的臺灣長期用價格去抑制用所謂的補貼去抑制價格但是我們其實不是一個正常的市場最後一個簡單的小問題很有趣總裁我們常常央行會發行紀念幣對不對紀念幣最近我接到很多的銀樓朋友來問因為他們很多現在金幣漲價"},{"start":615.829,"end":644.946,"text":"一顆金電幣那時候買是七萬兩千塊現在大概可以賣到八萬五所以進賺一萬三很多人拿去銀樓然後他們就說我可不可以把它融化然後銀樓很害怕因為這個好像中央銀行發行的就叫做法幣就是國幣這個有沒有算到所謂的防害國幣懲治條例我是不是黃委員我要請我們的發言人來給銀樓業者一個答案"},{"start":646.167,"end":669.054,"text":"是跟委員報告有關這個問題確實是我們發行：所以我們買了的人都很想賣掉啦我們發行的就是國幣啦所以怎麼辦呢你要不要修法把這個從國幣裡面剔除否則這些相關的事情可能會沒被檢舉就算了被檢舉的時候一年以上七年以下是不得了的事耶"},{"start":670.635,"end":683.711,"text":"這個確實是觸犯了所謂的我們的防害國幣懲治條例所以要不要做調整?要不要告知?要不要修正?可是這個定罪應該是由司法機關來定罪但是你要先定它是不是國幣嗎?"},{"start":685.208,"end":685.228,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":708.61,"end":731.821,"text":"國家要保護的法幣我覺得可以讓他從這個法條把它除外是你們去研究一下好這個會期來不及下個會期以前給我一個答案好謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝好謝謝珊珊委員那接著請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在那接著請羅敏采委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時18分）我請楊總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁早。剛剛我被記者拉著要問你一個問題，雖然我不太喜歡問這種比較不屬於政策的問題，希望能夠了解一下，包括金融管制這件事情，請問賴總統有沒有跟你溝通過？或者是用什麼方式跟您溝通的？"],["楊總裁金龍：總統也有提到，他不是說我們過當，沒有！所以有幾個委員就講說……我記得總統好像是說，金融機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有直接跟你溝通？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，他沒有講說我們過當，沒有，沒有這回事！"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，你沒有寫LINE、也沒有打電話就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，以上是記者要問的。","接下來是我要問的，總裁，在環球金融雜誌公布的2024全球央行總裁評比，以前我們都是得A，這次被降為B+，我寫了一篇臉書說，這是你的非戰之罪，我想央行幫執政黨的各部門背了一個很大的黑鍋，所產生的內憂外患，一個是現在號稱國內的「金龍海嘯」，「金龍海嘯」就是你打房打得太兇了；另外，外患就是被國際金融相關雜誌評比為B+。總裁，你要不要說一下你的感想？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我們從A降到B+是背黑鍋，我覺得這個也是委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們大家給你……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員對我們的美言，不過從我們中央銀行的立場還有我個人的立場來看，我總覺得中央銀行第一個要虛心檢討；第二個，我們要持續的努力，也表示中央銀行還有精進、進步的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，我在上個會期就講過，其實我覺得重點在於，從2020年我們開始第一波金融管制到現在已經七波了；然後從2022年相關的房市狀況、房價狀況，其實央行一直希望、總裁也在記者會裡面表示過，希望房市能夠軟著陸，軟著陸有兩個條件：價格要慢慢往下調、炒作要退場。總裁，七波了，價格有沒有慢慢往下調？炒作有沒有退場？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以這也就是我們為什麼在第七波……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼還要第七波？就是因為沒有發生嘛，你的目標、預期沒有做到！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第七波其實是在收前面的爛攤子，我必須要很沉痛的說出來，因為我們在今年……應該說大選年，我們本來做了一個對於居住正義很重要的平均地權條例，這個政策讓房價暫時抑制了一部分，其實只有抑制了兩個月；兩個月之後的8月推出了新青安貸款，我的天啊，房價就再也沒有下來過，從相關的房屋指數、房價指數來說，從2022年的下半年到今年的9月，整整27個月只有兩個月的房租年增率低於百分之二，也就是你剛剛講的，價格慢慢往下調沒有發生、而且價格往上漲的速度還在不斷提高、更快了、更快的漲！所以總裁，這兩個是你要推出第七波信用管制的主要原因，對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是啦，我們報告也有講到，就是說預期心理非常強。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個「金龍海嘯」其實是執政黨以前錯誤、矛盾的政策互相推起的浪花，只是灌在楊金龍的頭上。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我在這裡……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不會這樣講，這是我這樣講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也要替政府的政策……事實上，新青安也是健全房地產方案的重要一環。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是它有一個很大的問題是，它讓房價降不下來，剛剛講的這些小建商每天放這些消息，其實當初平均地權條例下來之後房價會往下降，跟您的預期一樣，但是新青安讓它止降、讓它撐在那裡，而且因為我們又有六千多億的錢投入了房地產市場，這才是整個房價你必須要用第七波來做的原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過後來院裡面也有就新青安做檢討……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的時間有限，我只要說，我希望你原來預設的目標跟政策方向在你的第七波做不到的話，第八波繼續做，你的「金龍海嘯」力度可以再大一點，否則這個目標永遠達不成！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們持續檢討、密切關注。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，現在很多房貸因為你的相關管制方式，很多人貸不到了，有沒有發現信貸增加然後流到不動產的狀況？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想……"],["黃委員珊珊：有還是沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想應該也會有。"],["黃委員珊珊：也會有。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，金管會在這一方面也會做金檢，我們的金檢處也會做專案金檢，就這個部分我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果要達到你的第一個目標，就要禁止信貸進入不動產市場，否則你這個信用管制又沒有用，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們來注意……"],["黃委員珊珊：專案金檢金管會要做，央行我覺得你的政策要落實。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：這是非常重要，否則一波、兩波、七波了也沒有用，一定有出了什麼原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，9月電價調漲、10月16號上路，雖然漲的都是產業的電價、漲幅到14%，那產業平均調漲了12%，在你們之前9月份的理監事會，當時有把這個放進來嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：那時候沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你現在預期接下來我們的通膨會受到這個的影響有多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有很大，因為第一個，如果以整年來講的話，以我們的估測大概會有0.125%左右的……"],["黃委員珊珊：0.125%。"],["楊總裁金龍：但那是整年，就今年來看的話，只剩下幾個月，所以今年不大。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果再有廠商說因為電價調漲，所以他要調漲他的相關商品，你覺得合理嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，廠商應該比較不會，一般的攤販……"],["黃委員珊珊：店家。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這次攤販那些都沒有調漲嘛，所以如果他也有漲，那就比較容易，但是基本上好像……"],["黃委員珊珊：應該不會影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：民生不會影響。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我想問一下，你3月份的時候說，你那時候升息是因為要抑制國內通膨的預期心理。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問你們對於通膨預期心理有做過相關的調查嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在就開始在……"],["黃委員珊珊：開始查？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：做過幾次了？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我們本身也有很多模型在做預測，比如下個月會多少，整年又會多少，我們有很多的模型。針對消費者的部分，我們現在是委託中央研究院……"],["黃委員珊珊：有相關的數字嗎？就是預期心理的部分，因為預期心理會是你接下去很多貨幣政策的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，委員講的沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意一定要有調查，才會有相關的資訊嘛！重點在於，我們長期以來穩定物價都是用補貼的方式，包括電價，捷運現在電價也漲很多，但是捷運票價也不能漲……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們長期在公共政策上面用補貼的方式，對所謂的真正的價格……我們可能抑制了價格，可是也產生了更多的內部的成本，你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我個人的看法，譬如像北捷的電比較長時間的凍結，也就是比較沒有漲價，我覺得也還好，為什麼？因為北捷本身都賺錢……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是業外收入嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：對……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們要用公共政策引導……"],["楊總裁金龍：這一次的台電，我個人的看法就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，你同意長期用價格控制，政府補貼的方式……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對……"],["黃委員珊珊：來決定市場的機制嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常贊同委員的看法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得問題是，我們要適度的、慢慢的……"],["楊總裁金龍：只能短期來實施，當然把這一段期間解決了以後，我們就要把它放寬。"],["黃委員珊珊：歐美曾經發生過一模一樣的狀況……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，沒有錯，委員的看法是沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們慢慢的回歸市場機制；同樣的，臺灣長期用價格去抑制，用補貼去抑制價格，這其實不是一個正常的市場。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個簡單的小問題很有趣。總裁，央行常常會發行紀念幣，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最近我接到很多銀樓的朋友來問，他們說現在金幣漲價，那時候買一顆紀念幣是七萬兩千塊，現在大概可以賣到八萬五，淨賺一萬三，很多人拿去銀樓賣，然後他們就問，可不可以把它融化？銀樓很害怕，好像中央銀行發行的，就叫做法幣、國幣，這個有沒有犯到所謂的妨害國幣懲治條例啊？"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員，我是不是請發行局鄧局長說明？"],["黃委員珊珊：請說，給銀樓業者一個答案。"],["鄧局長延達：跟委員報告，有關這個問題，確實是我們發行的……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們買了的人都很想賣掉。"],["鄧局長延達：我們發行的就是國幣。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以怎麼辦呢？你們要不要修法，把它從國幣裡面剔除，否則這些相關的事情，沒被檢舉就算了，被檢舉的話，就是一年以上，七年以下，是不得了的事！"],["鄧局長延達：這個確實是觸犯了我們的妨害國幣懲治條例。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要不要調整，要不要告知，要不要修正？"],["鄧局長延達：可是定罪的部分應該是由司法機關來……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是，你要先訂定它是不是國幣？紀念幣有必要弄成這麼嚴重嗎？"],["鄧局長延達：這個我們再來考慮。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，人民會去買這個紀念幣，其實有點是在保值啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：就是買它的紀念性，但不能因此就變成妨害國幣──一年以上，七年以下，比一般的刑責還重，這是怎麼回事？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果不是國家要保護的法幣，我覺得可以從這個法條把它除外，你們去研究一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這個會期來不及，下個會期以前給我一個答復。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請林楚茵委員、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","顏寬恒","王世堅","黃珊珊","羅明才","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱志偉","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「第七波選擇性信用管制之配套措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}