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"},{"start":84.141,"end":104.183,"text":"你才把趙敏在本田中獲取適用天然摘下的濾性限收與農檢方向邊跑。我告訴你,我要怎麼看他,部長你是拿北香港市的公衛,你沒有拿農民公衛,台灣的農檢方多不多?"},{"start":109.978,"end":122.904,"text":"昨天公告了已經把水稻這個部分拿掉了沒有公告所以沒有這個問題我現在先跟你說你除了拿掉好你又從善如流你只有規定農前鋒只有規定兵跑"},{"start":124.329,"end":127.591,"text":"我希望你這個公告裡面幫我加一項沿水風你知道新竹到苗栗到台中這個階段我們叫做久減風"},{"start":143.976,"end":158.97,"text":"那如果那個風一撿起來,淹水的時候在海邊一掃,那些球啊,那些球啊,差不多都不會滑,都是空爆彈。如果你要公告這個,真正有發生的話,我們就是減水風啊,你這樣聽到沒有?"},{"start":161.713,"end":182.551,"text":"我了解,我完全贊成委員的意見,就是說,現在市場的保險已經用我們的農業的保險去支撐了,但是針對特定的一些災害,他講的,龍捲瘟在台灣不容易發生,但是嚴峰,你剛剛講的海邊的嚴峰,反而機會會比較大,那這個部分我想我們"},{"start":183.812,"end":211.858,"text":"我上次的委員會我已經承諾齁就是我們天然災害救助每一年年底之前都會檢討完成包括金額包括裡面的不適合的條款我們在第二年的一月份一定會重新公告一次齁所以趁這個在這年底的部分我們把它納入就我們的檢討的一個依據好 這樣算喔 金水豐你一定要幫我納入好不好因為我曉得我當地的農民那個海邊的生態我一清二楚"},{"start":212.418,"end":212.658,"text":"農業部長陳超明"},{"start":237.285,"end":263.204,"text":"汗滴河下土再來你跟我說誰知盤中仙盤中孫啊不是利利皆辛苦好這標示我們做法院農業農民的辛苦我們以農利共大家跟農業跟農民都有深厚的感情你今天所謂評估報告出來我從頭把你抬到尾我所謂資料都把你調起來你裡面說"},{"start":266.625,"end":283.689,"text":"我請教你一個問題現在農民座一公頃實質的收益大概會有多少?一家棟?一家棟一期座6到8萬好業人7到8萬二期座收成比較少喔?一家一家棟一期座6到8萬可以貪6到8萬二期座是4到6萬我告訴你6到8萬要在台北一車一張坐就沒意了"},{"start":295.331,"end":312.641,"text":"所以我現在覺得你這個部長不替農民講話我感覺你是研究資深而且你也是做過農我覺得你一定會替農民講話我跟你們報告這次的收入相對於其他的品項其實他也比較高你不會這樣說他做的社產就是社產你的報告裡面說集團產區的企作價格每公斤26到29"},{"start":323.277,"end":349.717,"text":"高於公糧收購的26年你現在想你從2011年到今年2024年13年你都沒有調整這公糧的收購你是在壓榨農民我給你算我們現在基本工作的調整我們的公務薪水的調整跟著通貨膨脹不然你也要調整一下你竟然一口給一個貨我要看你的什麼"},{"start":351.38,"end":376.63,"text":"一舉二轉 三加三 要賠到這麼少的 看來看去又三個不差什麼我算是做些人出身的 你這是糟蹋農民當然你說的也有一些道理 但是基本 臺灣的物價已經漲了多少你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他的物價 什麼水果什麼那些物價我聽不進去 本來都已經在漲了"},{"start":378.871,"end":405.32,"text":"但是你要如何來改進這一些?你一集團,沒有你自己選擇嘛!提高公糧的價格,你們一定要跟集團簽合約,這個是另外一個途徑嘛!啊你說要改種優良的、品質的種,你跟我種這個瓶子的種啊!是什麼樣的改革你叫人家要種?沒有種我不會幫你收!大家就怪怪的來啊!你捨得這麼多看!"},{"start":411.474,"end":422.839,"text":"其實你集團收購才二十六到二十九給三個而已,要交你的報告所以我感覺你們要改變思考的方向"},{"start":424.73,"end":451.928,"text":"你現在要給我公糧,不然你給我種什麼品種,你覺得好嗎?不然你就說你要給我參觀集團做,還是安裝來修?這個方式你誰家沒誰人看得到好不好?我講真的啦!所以你這個想法就要改啦!你這樣說要賺到29元、賣到30元而已,我怎麼有感受?第一,一家都要賺6萬到10萬好不好?"},{"start":454.191,"end":459.342,"text":"找太多名了我是跟你講真的一家中六萬跟九萬"},{"start":461.554,"end":485.249,"text":"一黨受農變,若國衛跟參農辦跟高辦一國衛跟你參農辦一辦好不好?這個怎麼過活嘛?那是大家感覺說我這堆土地做先勞了,我要好好耕種,不然怕被外國人不孝順,沒有什麼事。都是在旁邊要找工作才有增加收入嘛,你都要了解這個情形嘛。"},{"start":486.803,"end":514.994,"text":"不然你從插秧的地方收割的地方那些待耕業者拜託他們去跟他們做的地址來講不然你講這些道理不通啊你可以再強制要求嘛我公糧收購就要品質比較好我固定收了多少你30%嘛你這講出來喔農民傻到不傻傻真的我們到哪個地方"},{"start":516.178,"end":543.443,"text":"政治層委員．農民說那個公糧十幾年都沒有給我們調整你這次要去給我們發聲要調整跟你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大我希望你在這邊再調整調整一個適當的方案農民要開心不然你農業的設施做了那麼多這開始要改進的所在"},{"start":546.063,"end":567.808,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我們其實共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得這是我們一致的目標那現在目前稻作有兩個系統一個是公糧一個是集團契作我們現在我們希望說透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有的稻農那我也必須要去"},{"start":568.548,"end":580.876,"text":"去 內部要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法去建立一個機制去做這個調整的一個機制你裡面報告說有2.24萬公頃只要抽離3%到5%就能把公糧的價格穩定好是產地的價格不是公糧的價格7000公頃到12000公頃你在雜糧的幾十年都沒有調整價格"},{"start":596.82,"end":623.796,"text":"你鼓勵調整價格那個介紹到好大家就照樣去做你公糧的收購就不用那麼多嘛你節償補短看什麼樣的方式這兩個政策是矛盾的齁因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧那雜糧的部分我們包括你如果不種到我已經多了一萬五了有增加的誘因那你一方面如果提高公糧收購的話又會跑過來所以基本上我想我們整體的產業是需要進步的"},{"start":625.817,"end":632.395,"text":"現在在半島啊說去政府半島一塊就三千啊普通是啊"},{"start":633.703,"end":640.547,"text":"農民的所得普遍的比其他的行業還要低這是事實然後我們也希望能夠透過各種方式能夠提高稻農所得我們的農產品的價格也偏低我們也希望說透過方式"},{"start":659.839,"end":688.249,"text":"不善於種植的到了全部改為國土計劃那個什麼發展區啊農業發展區降掉你的價格穩定你有好多種手段不是這行而已你也不要怕那些農運民運農運團體在講以前國民黨執政農運團體看天天抗爭發民政黨執政那些農運團體我都看不到了我們只是不想講"},{"start":689.795,"end":711.772,"text":"你把這些3億3、1萬2千公頃,照你所講,3到5、7千公頃,現在不適宜更重,改為城鄉發展區。第一個,把房價低價整個壓低下來,我不知道你這個政府要怎麼做,理智又沒有辦法,沒有拿出一道妥善的辦法,你要整體討論,不然現在房價那麼貴,"},{"start":716.168,"end":735.693,"text":"農民感鼓舞,你以為農民啊,大家都在期待呢,我常常講一句話你都沒有感受到。我們的廟裡的三坡地,一公頃三千平,沒有台北的一間廁所,好在的一間廁所,這樣你也跟我說,很悲哀啊,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時26分）首先謝謝主席，有請我們農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。今天是討論公糧調高價格的評估跟評審的一個報告，但是關於這個公糧的報告，我首先要先跟你請教一個問題，目前我們的農業保險率覆蓋率是51%，比109年的9%確實增加很多，但是這51%最重要的是，你是針對水稻跟豬隻的採取強制保險以後，所以一旦把這個部分扣掉，你只有17.6%，而且這個保險現在老百姓也不怎麼相信，因為農業保險不一定拿得到理賠的費用。今年的10月2號，農業部給我火速預告，修正天然災害救助辦法，你把本田中後期稻米適用天然災害的類型限縮於龍捲風跟冰雹，我跟你說，依照我的看法，部長，你根本是替那些保險公司講話，並沒有替農民講話！臺灣的龍捲風多不多？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，關於預告的部分，其實我們昨天公告的時候已經把水稻這個部分拿掉了，沒有公告，所以沒有這個問題。"],["陳委員超明：我現在是先跟你說，你突然拿掉很好，這表示你有從善如流，因為過去你們只有規定龍捲風及冰雹，但這個東西在臺灣很少發生嘛，你替這些東西辦保險是要做什麼？但我今天要說的是……"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：我希望你在這個公告裡面幫我加一項鹽水風，你知道新竹、苗栗跟臺中在這個階段，我們叫做九捲風，如果那個風一捲起來，鹽水在海邊一掃，那些樹、那些稻子，差不多都種不活了，都是空包彈，如果你要公告這個，真正有發生的話，我們叫做鹽水風啊，你這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，我完全贊成委員的意見，就是現在水稻的保險已經用我們的農業保險去支撐了，但是針對特定的一些災害，你剛才說的，龍捲風在臺灣不容易發生，但是鹽風，你剛才說的，海邊的鹽風反而機會會比較大。"],["陳委員超明：非常大。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我在上次的委員會已經承諾，天然災害救助每一年年底之前都會檢討完成，包括金額，包括裡面不適合的條款，我們在第二年的1月份，一定會重新公告一次，所以趁這次年底檢討的時候，我會把它納入，作為我們檢討的一個依據。"],["陳委員超明：好，這樣很讚！鹽水風，你一定要幫我納入，好不好？因為我曉得，當地的農民，那個海邊的生態我一清二楚，好不好？你光是限縮在龍捲風跟冰雹，這不可能拿得到嘛，好不好？。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會納入討論，在我們的專案會議上去做討論。"],["陳委員超明：再來，要跟你討論到公糧的收購，聽了你今天的報告，確實很矛盾，你記得一句話嗎？我看你是否接得起來，「鋤禾日當午，汗滴禾下土」，再來你告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：誰知盤中飧，粒粒皆辛苦。"],["陳委員超明：好，這表示我們很懷念農民的辛苦，我們以農立國，大家跟農業、跟農民都有深厚的感情。你今天所有評估報告出來，我從頭讀到尾，所有的資料都調出來，裡面說的我請教你一個問題，現在農民做一甲地的實質收益大概會有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：一期作的時候差不多6到8萬，好一點有7到8萬，二期作收成比較少，有4到6。"],["陳委員超明：1公頃喔！你說多少？"],["陳部長駿季：一甲地一期作6到8萬。"],["陳委員超明：可以賺6到8萬？"],["陳部長駿季：二期作是4到6萬。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，6到8萬在臺北市請一桌就沒了。所以我現在覺得你這個部長沒有替農民說話，你是研究出身，而且你也務過農，我覺得你一定會替農民講話。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，水稻的收入相對於其他品項，其實它也比較高了。"],["陳委員超明：你不能這樣說，種田的就是種田，你的報告裡面說，集團產區的契作價格每公斤26到29，高於公糧收購的26元，你想，從2011年到今（2024）年，13年來你都沒有調整公糧收購價格，你是在壓榨農民。我來算，我們現在基本工資調整了，我們公務員的薪水也調整了，都跟著通貨膨脹調，不然你也應該稍微調整一下，結果你竟然一口否決。我看你的「1集、2轉、3加3」，我背得很熟，但是看來看去也是霧煞煞，我是「作穡人」出身的，你這是在糟蹋農民。當然你說的也有一些道理，但是基本臺灣的物價已經漲了多少？你說調高公糧價格會帶動其他物價，包括水果等等的物價，我聽不進去！本來就已經在漲了，但是你要如何來改進這些？說到集團，不然你就限制，提高公糧價購，一定要跟集團簽合約，這個是另外一個途徑嘛！你說要改種優良品質的種，那就看什麼稻子的種比較好，叫他們種，不種就不要收，大家就會乖乖的來，你寫這麼多，看不懂啦！你又說到休耕、怎麼補償，其實集團收購才26到29元，多3元而已，照你報告上所說的。","所以我覺得你們要改變思考的方向，你要收購公糧，看是種什麼品種比較好吃，或者規定要跟著集團做，還是怎麼樣收，現在你寫這樣，沒什麼人看得懂，好不好？我講真的啦！所以你這個想法要改啦！你說這樣比較高，其實也只到29元，才多3元而已，農民怎麼會有感受？第一個，一甲地才賺6萬到10萬，這是在糟蹋農民耶！我是跟你講真的，一甲地賺6萬到9萬，一年收兩次，6個月才賺6萬到9萬，一個月賺2萬、1萬好不好？這個怎麼過活嘛？那是大家覺得土地是祖先留下來的要好好耕種，不然怕被誤以為是不肖子，否則實在沒什麼收益，都是要在旁邊再找工作才能增加收入，你要瞭解這個情形嘛！不然你從插秧的地方、收割的地方，拜託那些代耕業者去跟他們的地主講，你說這些道理不通啦！你可以再強制要求嘛，公糧就是要品質比較好，固定收多少，你30%嘛！這話說出來，農民弄得霧煞煞，真的！我們到那裡去，農民遇到陳委員說：超明啊！公糧價格十幾年都沒有調整了，這次你要替我們發聲，要調整啊！你的想法跟農民的想法差別很大，我希望你在這邊再調整，調整出一個適當的方案，農民才會高興，不然你農業設施做了那麼多，這才是要改進的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的指教。其實我們共同的目的就是要提高稻農的所得，這是我們一致的目標。目前稻作有兩個系統，一個是公糧，一個是集團契作……"],["陳委員超明：我曉得。"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望透過集團契作的方式能夠照顧到所有稻農，我們內部也必須要去討論的就是我們有沒有辦法建立一個機制做這個調整的機制？"],["陳委員超明：我再跟你說一次，你的報告說優良農田24萬公頃，只要脫離3%到5%，就能把公糧的價格穩定住……"],["陳部長駿季：是產地的價格，不是公糧的價格。"],["陳委員超明：就算3%到5%，差不多就是7,000公頃到1萬2,000公頃，雜糧也是幾十年都沒有調整價格了，你鼓勵調整價格，只要價格比較好，大家就跑去種，公糧的收購就不用那麼多嘛！你就截長補短，看用什麼樣的方式。"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個政策是矛盾的，因為我們一直希望把水稻轉成雜糧，雜糧的部分包括如果不種稻就已經多了1萬5,000，有增加的誘因，但一方面又提高公糧收購的話，那邊就會跑過來，所以基本上，我們整體的產業是需要進步的。"],["陳委員超明：報告部長，現在進香辦桌辦一桌3,000，平常就要超過1萬，都市人這樣在生活，你有想到農民的難處嗎？那1萬還不夠……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：你以為這個功勞很大啊？很可憐！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農民的所得普遍比其他行業還要低，這是事實，我們也希望能夠透過各種方式提高稻農所得，我們的農產品價格也偏低，也希望透過方式……"],["陳委員超明：你說他們都同意，不善於種植的全部改為國土計畫什麼發展區……"],["陳部長駿季：農業發展區。"],["陳委員超明：城鄉發展區。占住了價格就穩定了，你有好多種手段，不是一樣而已，你不要怕那些農運、民運團體在講。以前國民黨執政，農運團體天天抗爭，換民進黨執政，那些農運團體我都看不到了，我們只是不想講。你把這些刪一刪，照你所講的，3%到5%就是7,000公頃到1萬2,000公頃，那些不適宜耕種的就改為城鄉發展區。第一個，把房價、地價整個壓低下來，我不知道這個政府是怎麼樣，愛面子，裡子又沒有辦法，你要拿出一道妥善的辦法，你要整體討論嘛！不然現在房價這麼貴，農民只有苦苦等待，大家都在期待。我常常講一句話，你都沒有感受到，我們苗栗的山坡地1公頃3,000坪買不到臺北的一間廁所、豪宅的一間廁所，這樣你也敢說，很悲哀啊！謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","李坤城","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","羅智強","賴士葆","涂權吉","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","徐富癸","黃建賓","許宇甄","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案」進行報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}