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text":"好,因為民進黨執政之後一直在推這個韌性的電網,對不對?台電現在坦白講,如果以那個什麼那個 Google 的那個點閱率還是什麼流量台電都算是蠻高的吧,包含電惠嘛,包含這個整個債務的問題種種嘛所以講到台電大家都會特別的去關注這件事情,但現在台電的能力老化嘛"},{"start":357.61,"end":378.531,"text":"所以要讓台灣有這個任性健康的這樣的一個電網基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛所以應該行政院要把它當成是一個非常重要的一個這樣的一個政策然後去怎麼去普及到這樣的一個能力嘛所以我覺得勞動部如果說就要叫台電自己去建立台電自己去培訓這樣的人力這個"},{"start":380.612,"end":406.982,"text":"沒關係,我們等下再來討論啦齁不過林委員,這個臺電其實過去他們其實都有培訓的這樣的機制捏但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的這樣的一個培訓的課程嗎?不不,那臺電自己就有培訓的能力了他自己有培訓的能力?他甚至有訓練所他們早年就都是培訓自己本國的技職生建教合作只是現在技職生本國人越不願意進入這個領域"},{"start":408.742,"end":433.888,"text":"不然你這麼講因為我是從移工講到這個地方那如果是這麼說那等於是勞動部就是這事情就是你台電資料去處理我勞動部就是不處理也不是所以我在幫忙我在幫忙是說你喬外生以及資深移工啦中階啦就是我們所謂的可以成為中階技術人力的這樣的人因為這樣的人他有一個問題就是說他需要考證照"},{"start":434.868,"end":452.716,"text":"而且他要有懂語文能夠跟台電員工溝通要不然就怕出人命啦對所以這個其實是一個需要慎重的問題那麼我們現在是建議他先循中階人力的這個方式來禁用這樣子"},{"start":454.838,"end":464.428,"text":"我現在就要連結到我們勞動部有相關的一些職人的培訓課程嘛我只是很訝異說為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來我覺得有點納悶啦部長可以看這個臺灣就業通這是我們在處理的嘛"},{"start":471.096,"end":488.537,"text":"其實委員我們也有跟台電建議是說你其實可以我甚至可以幫你來開班來帶訓你這句話要講啦你這句話不講我就會覺得怪怪的啦到現在開幾班了沒有沒有我們也有跟台電提這樣子的建議"},{"start":489.378,"end":503.412,"text":"對啦,台電沒有接受也不是說沒有接受啦,他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦那如果是台電的問題,那我就來找台電來好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通處理"},{"start":505.173,"end":532.236,"text":"沒關係,我現在部長因為我時間到了啦我後面還有一些事情要講你看啦齁臺灣經貿通識我們跟勞動部的支持應該是毋庸置疑的嘛因為下面就有勞動力發展署嘛對不對所以這個是我們在強化的一個一個一個一個在職訓練的一個網絡嘛應該這麼講部長你覺得這裡面有寫嘛自助旅行國外班這個是課程還是"},{"start":534.553,"end":540.456,"text":"是這個課程是執訓還是在培養興趣?自助旅行然後一個人學費7,900我們政府負擔要6,320塊"},{"start":547.079,"end":572.933,"text":"那我處理院去看了很多培訓、看似執訓其實就比較像在培養興趣班我不能講說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能或許會嘛然後我們又開了很多好像這個創意手作工藝品這好像有點在社區、龍寨相關的這樣的政府的部門在支持也蠻多的然後他要把它變成一個職訓好像職能"},{"start":573.934,"end":588.949,"text":"要間接到一個職能好像也有一個蠻大的一個區塊所以我剛剛才會用台電的引力來講另外一個像餐廳業大缺工對不對這個我們都很清楚我們在餐廳業的相關的職能訓練也幾乎其為"},{"start":593.001,"end":617.022,"text":"比例也不高啦比例不高那我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講因為昨天的諮詢我也已經特別提到怎麼會政府編的預算然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情相對的我們現在一直補助我們在補助什麼補助我跟部長講一下齁有幾個課程也是在這個臺灣居委通裡面顯示出來的部長可以看一下個人財務規劃金融產品分析與食物班"},{"start":618.883,"end":631.148,"text":"學會5040我們政府要負擔4032金融正確交易事務班學會8910我們政府要負擔7128股市投資理財策略事務班學會8880政府要負擔7104所以如果照這麼講勞工不是不能投資股票"},{"start":647.452,"end":674.543,"text":"投資股票已經是全民運動讓勞工有正確的訊息我也覺得有其必要但是把這個相反在職能的訓練部長覺得合理嗎?所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話可能部長再讓一下嘛我就問部長說勞工看到這些勞工要小心嘛這是誘導的情況這些老師基本上"},{"start":676.069,"end":693.441,"text":"我們職法署有TEST過嗎?有了解過嗎?他們在這樣的一個勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面來教勞工做這些事情這些老師萬一教得好就好教得不好是要找你勞動部勞法署負責嗎?還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎?"},{"start":706.53,"end":719.078,"text":"委員我們來檢討好嗎就是因為這裡很多時候是比如像工會他們主動提這樣的案來那適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個一個一個一個"},{"start":721.449,"end":745.149,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到說勞工要去投資股票基本上健康的我們無庸置疑嘛對不對他們不然辛苦的基本公司還是多了一些相關的一些這些的其他的包括你女總統的薪資加起來可能都幾萬塊而已他可以去投資股票證券的管道我覺得無庸置疑但是你把他放在職能這一塊"},{"start":747.113,"end":767.648,"text":"有問題嗎?我們來檢討台灣就業通貨經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金就保跟就安嘛對不對這個我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的一個訓練我是覺得真的是"},{"start":768.99,"end":797.226,"text":"也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候對那個課程的形式我們也是要跟他們要有一些我要再提醒一下部長連勞保署都有自己相關的課程部長應該很清楚吧所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工勞動部是要培訓國外明燈還是要幫你們這個相關的基金勞保相關基金來操盤不然為什麼臺灣基金會也有你們勞保署也有"},{"start":800.668,"end":824.908,"text":"還是我們要一個正式提案,相關部會都必須要這樣因為這個股票就已經是全民運動了,投資股票是全民運動了不然你勞方署、署本部也有啊,你臺灣就業通也有啊而且我們補助的每班補助的額度,你看都八成一班七千多塊、八千多塊,我們政府都要負擔七千多啊所以我才問說你臺灣就業通你到底是要"},{"start":826.032,"end":829.775,"text":"我現在要請勞動部部長我們來檢討啦,就是整個包括甚至是署例嗎?不是啊,署長你應該要答幾句好不好?你讓部長你回答我,我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧?"},{"start":850.72,"end":877.245,"text":"我昨天才在問你們114年的總預算新部長單位有沒有新的相關的新興的一個項目來支持這個勞工沒有甚至於現在是預算還沒審有可能還會比1130更少的預算那你把這些錢從救安跟救保來處理這樣的項目把它當成一個勞工的職能你們說得過去嗎我相信部長不曉得這個事情啦阿現在連你出本部也都有捏"},{"start":879.11,"end":906.802,"text":"你要等到在野的委員來出來這個多久了報告委員那個剛剛委員提到的我們整個來檢視一下確實我們有一些課程其實如果跟他未來的職能的發展沒有相關性應該是不應該去做這樣的核定這個我們來檢討公衛期待要有這樣的班我基本上我也會支持那你們看用什麼樣的項目是不是新興的項目去處理你把它放在職能"},{"start":908.592,"end":909.733,"text":"沒有道理吧部長要小心吧我覺得應該很多事情都要再盤整一下吧好 謝謝兩個星期內整個檢討報告給我們好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":954,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先看這個投影片的文字。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：第一，透過免費的網站，分享如何使用，來追蹤法人買賣股票的交易動態。第二，分享利用免費的軟體及APP，來選擇績優並可以長期投資之股票。第三，選擇適合穩健基金投資標的買入，創造長期穩健之投資收入。第四，迎向操盤手正確心態：1.穩定比賭一波重要；2.風報比永遠是主要考量；3.勝率不如福利來得重要。如果勞工看到這些文字，部長有什麼建議？"],["何部長佩珊：這看起來是投資誘導，請委員指示。"],["劉委員建國：我是說勞工看到這些文字，你會給勞工什麼樣的建議？"],["何部長佩珊：應該要慎選。"],["劉委員建國：要慎選，因為可能有誘導對不對？就像部長講的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們現在先進入到今天的正題，今年的5月23日，部長剛就任沒多久的時候，我有特別在這個地方質詢，失聯移工的問題非常嚴重。當時失聯移工總數應該是8.6萬快逼近8.7萬，是5月的時候。9月20日移民署公布最新的資料，說臺灣的失聯移工已經達到8.8萬，逼近9萬大關了，其實應該更多，這個要怎麼辦？","5月質詢的時候我也明確指出，因為失聯移工只靠內政部移民署五百多名的專勤隊員在查緝，坦白講這樣要把將近9萬的失聯移工找回來，那幾乎是微乎其微的事情，我們都很清楚這是一個現狀，也是一個現實。部長你再看這兩則新聞，突開車門害祖孫媳摔車後又遭車子輾斃，這個是失聯移工肇逃。另外一個是居留逾期移工酒駕肇事，見警開溜最後遭到逮捕壓制。","現在臺灣的移工總數已經來到79萬9,196人，這幾個月應該就突破80萬了，那失聯移工就要突破9萬甚至更高，大概都是時間的問題。我是在想，我們還要再開放他國的移工進來，全國的國人會對治安這個項目非常的care、重視。所以我在這邊具體建議，畢竟勞動部還是引進移工的主管機關，是不是可以連結警政署、移民署、法務部，讓所有進到臺灣的移工，最起碼法治的觀念要非常正確。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["何部長佩珊：要，OK！"],["劉委員建國：所以我是希望部長可以來統籌，然後成立一個跨部會的平台。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：因為他進來，有必要的一些相關資訊要給他，最起碼法治這一項一定是重中之重，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來加強對新入國移工的法治教育。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。另外又是一個移工的大新聞，請部長看一下，就是電力維修缺工，我們要解禁找移工。這個新聞又引發政府要再擴大移工的疑慮，但是勞動部有馬上解釋，電網建設等配電的相關工程，原本就可以依規定申請移工，從事基層體力工作。但若要從事相關技術工作（爬電桿、修繕電業），必須取得配電、輸電、線路或電纜裝修證照。所以我們建議，勞動部建議台電應優先培訓國人，或延纜並培訓在台僑外生取得相關的證照，以投入配電外線中階技術工作，沒有錯嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們鼓勵台電應建議啦！台電應該優先……"],["何部長佩珊：是，要優先這樣處理。"],["劉委員建國：但主要是因為這樣啦！如果照這樣，勞動部的意思就是說，台電的承包商本來就可以申請基本勞力工作項目的移工，但是如果要爬電線桿、接觸配電，這就是不行嘛！因為他必須要有證照對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，目前不行。"],["劉委員建國：所以就是台電要趕快去培訓嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為台電配電外線的作業技術人力老化，是這樣吧？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們還有預備開放輔導這樣子進來的基層體力工，經過了一定程度的年限以後，他有語言溝通的能力，已經是資深移工要成為中階了。我們的移工留才久用本來就有所謂的資深移工變中階的機制，這樣的人我們建議台電可以優先輔導他考照，來從事台電這方面的工作，我們是預備要開放這個部分。"],["劉委員建國：好，因為民進黨執政之後，一直在推韌性的電網，台電現在坦白講，如果以Google的點閱率，還是什麼流量，台電都算是蠻高的吧！包含電費和整個債務的問題種種。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以講到台電，大家都會特別的去關注這件事情，現在台電的人力老化，所以要讓臺灣有韌性健康的電網，基本上這事情不解決就出大問題嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以行政院應該要把他當成是一個非常重要的政策，看怎麼去普及這樣一個能力。我覺得勞動部如果就建議台電自己去培訓這樣的人力，沒關係這個我們等一下再來討論。"],["何部長佩珊：不過委員，其實台電過去都有這樣的培訓機制……"],["劉委員建國：但是在我們勞動部有辦法找到相關的培訓課程嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不，台電自己就有培訓的能力了。"],["劉委員建國：他自己有培訓的能力？"],["何部長佩珊：他們甚至有訓練所，他們早年就都是培訓本國的技職生，建教合作，只是現在本國技職生越來越不願意進入這個領域。"],["劉委員建國：你這麼講，因為我是從移工講到這個地方，如果是這麼說，那等於這事情就是台電自己要去處理，勞動部就是不處理？"],["何部長佩珊：也不是，所以我在幫忙，我在幫忙的是僑外生以及資深移工，中階啦！就是我們所謂可以成為中階技術人力這樣的人。因為這樣的人有一個問題，就是他需要考證照，而且他要懂語文，能夠跟台電員工溝通，要不然就怕出人命啦！所以這其實是一個需要慎重的問題，我們現在是建議台電，先用循中階人力的方式來晉用，就是僑外生以及資深移工。"],["劉委員建國：好，沒關係，部長，我現在就要連結到我們勞動部相關的一些職能培訓課程。我只是很訝異，為什麼沒有把台電這一塊納進來？我覺得有點納悶啦！部長可以看這個臺灣就業通，這是我們在處理的，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實我們也有跟台電建議，我們甚至可以來幫忙開班代訓。"],["劉委員建國：OK，你這句話要講啦！你這句話不講，我就會覺得怪怪的啦！但是到現在開幾班了？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，我們也有跟台電提這樣的建議，可是……"],["劉委員建國：台電沒有接受？台電到現在沒有跟你們主動接洽？"],["何部長佩珊：也不是說沒有接受啦！他認為他就是要從國外直接引移工啦！可是這個我們比較……"],["劉委員建國：好，那如果是台電的問題，我就來找台電，好好把這個事情看怎樣溝通處理。"],["何部長佩珊：沒關係委員，那個……"],["劉委員建國：部長，因為我時間到了啦！我後面還有一些事情要講。臺灣就業通是勞動部支持的，這點應該是毋庸置疑，因為下面就有勞動力發展署對不對？所以這個是我們在強化在職訓練的一個網絡。部長，這裡面有寫自助旅行規劃班，這個課程是職訓還是在培養興趣？自助旅行規劃班，然後一個人學費7,900，我們政府要負擔6,320元。然後我助理又去看了很多培訓課程，乍看是職訓，其實比較像是培養興趣班，我不能說這個興趣未來能不能變成一個職能，或許會嘛！然後我們又開了很多課程，像創意手作工藝品班，這好像有點像是社區、農再相關政府部門在支持的，這也滿多的，然後要把它變成一個職訓、職能，就是要進階到一個職能，好像又有一個滿大的區塊，所以我剛剛才會用台電的例子來講。另外，像餐廳業大缺工，這我們都很清楚，但我們在餐廳業相關職能的訓練也是微乎其微，比例也不高。","我為什麼要把這個事情拿出來講，因為昨天的質詢我已經特別提到，怎麼會政府編的預算，然後好像在鼓勵人家做不對的事情，相對的，我們現在一直補助，我們在補助什麼？我跟部長講一下，有幾個課程也是在台灣就業通裡面顯示出來的，部長可以看一下，個人財務規劃─金融商品分析與實務班，學費5,040，我們政府要負擔4,032；金融證券交易實務班，學費8,910，我們政府要負擔7,128；股市投資理財策略實務班，學費8,880，政府要負擔7,104。所以如果照這麼講，勞工不是不能投資股票，投資股票已經是全民運動，讓勞工有正確的訊息，我也覺得有其必要，但是把這個項目放在職能的訓練上，部長覺得合理嗎？所以剛剛開始的前面那幾段話，可能部長再run一下，我就問部長說，勞工看到這些時，勞工要小心，這是不是有誘導的情況，這些老師基本上我們勞發署有test過嗎？有了解過嗎？他們在勞動部辦的職能訓練裡面，來教勞工做這些事情，這些老師教得好就好，萬一教得不好，是要找你勞動部勞發署負責嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個部分……"],["劉委員建國：還是我們在幫這些老師掛保證？這個是屬於職能訓練的一環嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們來檢討，好嗎？因為很多時候是工會他們主動提這樣的案子來，至於適不適合我覺得是不是可以設立一個……"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛有特別提到，勞工要去投資股票基本上若是健康的，我們無庸置疑，對不對？他們很辛苦，在基本工資之外，其他相關的薪資林林總總加起來可能幾萬塊而已，他可以去投資股票，有正確的管道，我覺得這無庸置疑，但是你把它放在職能這一塊，有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來檢討，我們請勞發署檢討。"],["劉委員建國：對，台灣就業通的經費最主要來源是就業保險基金還有就業安定基金，即就保跟就安，對不對？我們把這樣的錢放在這個地方去支持這樣的訓練，我是覺得真的會出問題。"],["何部長佩珊：可能也要輔導這些工會他們在提案的時候，包括課程的形式，我們也是要跟他們要有一些……"],["劉委員建國：我要再提醒一下部長，連勞發署自己都有開設相關的課程，署長應該很清楚吧！所以你是要鼓勵這些勞工嗎？勞動部自己要培訓股海明燈？還是要幫你們勞保相關基金來操盤？不然為什麼台灣就業通也有，你們勞發署也有？還是我們要有一個正式提案，相關部會都必須要這樣？因為股票已經是全民運動，投資股票是全民運動，不然勞發署署本部也有，台灣就業通也有，而且我們每班補助的額度都有八成，一班學費七千多塊、八千多塊，我們政府都要負擔七千多，所以我才問你，勞動部是希望台灣就業通來提升勞工的職能，還是……"],["何部長佩珊：我們請勞發署來整個檢討，好嗎？"],["劉委員建國：還是這個職訓是要勞工大殺股海？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們請勞發署長整個來檢討，就是整個，包括署裡……"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！署長你應該要回答幾句吧？你讓部長一直回答我，我覺得你當署長這樣不好吧！我昨天才問你們114年的總預算中，新部長到位後有沒有相關的新興項目來支持這些勞工，沒有！甚至現在預算是還沒審，但有可能會比113年更少，你把這些錢用在就安跟就保來處理這樣的項目，把它當成一個勞工的職能訓練，你們說得過去嗎？我相信部長不曉得這個事情，現在連你署本部也都有！你要等到在野的委員出來……這個多久了……"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，剛剛委員提到的，我們會整個來檢視一下，確實我們有一些課程，其實如果跟他未來職能的發展沒有相關性，是不應該去做這樣的核定，這個我們會來檢討。"],["劉委員建國：工會期待要有這樣的班，基本上我也會支持，你們看看要用什麼樣的項目，是不是用新興的項目去處理？你把它放在職能項目，沒有道理吧！部長要小心吧！我覺得很多事情應該都要再盤整一下。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["劉委員建國：兩個星期內，整個檢討報告提供給我們，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}