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關係，因為總是要尊重國防部長行使職權嘛，所以我們願意理解，但是這個部分就由您代勞來回答。是。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:07.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:51.924000+08:00","text":"從新政府上任以來，針對國防議題的討論，從輿論的反應來看，其實非常多的比重在討論全民防衛動員、新成立的社會韌性委員會，討論這40萬人到底是民兵還是民力，還有最近這一段時間的政策走向，剛剛前面的孟楷委員也有提到義務役役期重新延長的一些配套措施，看起來這個政策指導好像有在轉向的意思，因為就本席過去年輕時候的理解，在學時的理解，那時候我們的國防政策基本上是希望走向精兵政策，搭配高科技的武器，去做最小的成本，但是有最強的打擊能力，這是我一直以來認知的國防走向。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:17:52.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:17:59.912000+08:00","text":"那麼我想請教副部長，本來想請教部長，我的問題是，現在新政府上任之後，這樣子的政策指導是否有轉向的趨勢？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:01.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:05.998000+08:00","text":"上任之後是不是要把以前我們認知的精兵政策開始往全民防衛動員的方向去走？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:06.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:07.320000+08:00","text":"請問是或不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:08.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:25.627000+08:00","text":"我要跟委員報告，精兵跟戰力是逐步在成長的，你也知道，我們的全民防衛動員，過去從後備動員制度裡面，因為烏克蘭戰爭，我們成立了全動署。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:25.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:34.491000+08:00","text":"全動署的目的就是要整合跨部會的功能，在全社會防衛韌性上來講，事實上是國際的潮流和趨勢。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:34.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:40.933000+08:00","text":"這個事來講的話，我們未來的全民防衛動員符合國際上的趨勢。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:41.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:45.635000+08:00","text":"同時，在所有戰爭，美軍也是這樣推全民社會防衛韌性。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:46.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:48.056000+08:00","text":"所以是政策轉向了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:48.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:48.937000+08:00","text":"不是政策轉向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:49.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:49.797000+08:00","text":"新的國防部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:50.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:57.539000+08:00","text":"是在精兵政策的情況下，在國際潮流的趨勢下，我們增加了全社會防衛韌性。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:57.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:18:59.060000+08:00","text":"所以你認為是增加，而不是轉向？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:18:59.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:00.921000+08:00","text":"好，那我現在就要提一些概念。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:01.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:19:12.585000+08:00","text":"我們回到精兵政策來討論，114年度中央政府的總預算關於國防部主管，大概是4,760億，比去年增加大概415億，增幅9.57%，其中以軍事投資的預算增幅最高，明年軍事投資預計是1,457億，對不對？是。","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:19:16.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:01.662000+08:00","text":"增幅大概是16.18%，接近17%左右，你當然是為了充實國防戰力，要去買非常多的軍事設備，本席不反對；但相對來講，我們的人員維持預算數是1,815億，占比反而從40%下降到38.14%，這當然就反映一點，也就是今天媒體報導的和前一段時間大家討論的志願役編現比不足，人數節節下降的問題，所以我才擔心。","quality":0.331},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:01.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:02.662000+08:00","text":"從國防部現在回答的角度，你說全民防衛是我們新增的業務，可是當你同時看到精兵的業務一直在退、一直在退的時候，當然大家就會解讀這有可能是一個政策的轉向。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:01.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:08.445000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要問的是，針對現在志願役人員的維持和待遇的增加有沒有一些方向？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:08.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:13.328000+08:00","text":"我跟副部長談一下，現在國軍的整體兵力編現比，從2020年的89%到88%，2022年降到80%，現在正在保八成的門檻，所以明年守得住嗎？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:24.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:24.934000+08:00","text":"報告委員，守得住。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:25.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:25.734000+08:00","text":"守得住？對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:26.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:28.997000+08:00","text":"因為這跟義務役的役期增加有關係……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:28.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:37.262000+08:00","text":"我要這樣跟委員報告，事實上，人數不代表戰力，當然某些方面代表戰力，但是你也知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:37.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:38.263000+08:00","text":"不能光用總人數來看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:38.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:41.145000+08:00","text":"當然，因為現在的戰爭是科技的戰爭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:41.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:43.246000+08:00","text":"科技的戰爭，對不對？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:43.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:20:46.668000+08:00","text":"這個問題就是我後面要講的，因為戰鬥部隊的缺額問題，比你這個80%還低嘛，對不對？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:20:46.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:02.064000+08:00","text":"包含外島步兵、機步砲兵、裝步戰車、反裝甲等等，還有艦隊、戰術偵蒐、防空飛彈、憲兵指揮部等等，這是所謂的戰鬥部隊，它的缺額狀況其實比總體數據還要更加嚴重。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:02.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:13.358000+08:00","text":"那當然我們直觀上想第一件事，本席認為有三個，第一個是待遇；第二個是生涯規劃，剛剛鍾佳濱委員說得很好，生涯十年退休之後面對的是什麼？","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:13.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:22.340000+08:00","text":"其實這都是政府的責任；第三個是社會的尊嚴，你不能讓國軍出去的時候沒有辦法抬頭挺胸，我們國家要敬軍愛民，這三個面向。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:23.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:37.545000+08:00","text":"誘因最直接，相對來講操作最簡單，也是你國防部可以主控的，當然就是待遇的問題，薪水由薪俸加加給來調整，大部分一直以來應該都在加給的提升，顧立雄部長也說，正在研擬新的加給方案，對不對？是。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:38.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:47.314000+08:00","text":"好，副部長，你應該是有經驗的，108年我們就在討論戰鬥部隊的加給提報案，過程中國防部吃了非常多行政院的排頭，對不對？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:47.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:53.580000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我覺得經費這件事情不是吃排頭，本來在國家的經費上來講，我們的經費要用在刀口上。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:54.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:21:58.003000+08:00","text":"當初你們在討論要幫軍人弟兄爭取待遇的時候，有沒有聽過行政院有一些聲音？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:21:58.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:04.729000+08:00","text":"我們就不要講是誰，他們說待遇已經夠高了、要考慮衡平性，這些壓力壓在你身上，有沒有過這樣的經驗？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:05.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:07.531000+08:00","text":"報告委員，不會，我們都是在理性討論。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:07.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:09.172000+08:00","text":"理性討論是不是？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:09.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:20.936000+08:00","text":"前朝曾經有這樣的一些聲音出來，我覺得那個是不對的，國防部應該要解決剛剛我講的編現比跟戰鬥部隊缺員的問題，積極地來主張。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:20.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:24.217000+08:00","text":"新的加給方案什麼時候會有具體的進度跟時間？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:24.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:32.498000+08:00","text":"報告委員，謝謝委員的提醒，這個東西我們一直在爭取當中，福利待遇都是我們國軍所關注的，也希望委員多支持我們。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:32.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:36.159000+08:00","text":"至於說未來怎麼去爭取，我們還要視財政狀況來決定。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:36.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:37.159000+08:00","text":"有沒有具體的時間表？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:36.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:40.600000+08:00","text":"當然有具體時間表，我們已經提出去了，我們希望在未來，甚至是反映到明年的預算裡面，我們都希望有這樣子的預算，希望委員多……","quality":0.434},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:41.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:43.957143+08:00","text":"希望部長能在一個月內。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:44.257143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:46.828571+08:00","text":"一個月內會給大家？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:47.128571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:55.985714+08:00","text":"我們希望國防部一定守住自己本位，即使行政院有壓力，你也要堅守，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:56.285714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:58+08:00","text":"我們會，我們會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:58.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:22:59.300000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柏副部長鴻輝","start":"2024-10-17T12:22:59.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:01.028571+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:01.328571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:04.185714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝牛委員，各位請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:04.485714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:07.628571+08:00","text":"柏鴻輝就是前朝留下來的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-17T12:23:07.928571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-17T12:23:12.500000+08:00","text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是楊瓊瓔委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":728,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時16分）謝謝主席。副部長有請。"],["主席：來，柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：副部長午安。有點可惜啦，但沒關係，因為總是要尊重國防部長行使職權嘛，所以我們願意理解，但是這個部分就由您代勞來回答。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：從新政府上任以來，針對國防議題的討論，從輿論的反應來看，其實非常多的比重在討論全民防衛動員、新成立的社會韌性委員會，討論這40萬人到底是民兵還是民力，還有最近這一段時間的政策走向，剛剛前面的孟楷委員也有提到義務役役期重新延長的一些配套措施，看起來這個政策指導好像有在轉向的意思，因為就本席過去年輕時候的理解，在學時的理解，那時候我們的國防政策基本上是希望走向精兵政策，搭配高科技的武器，去做最小的成本，但是有最強的打擊能力，這是我一直以來認知的國防走向。那麼我想請教副部長，本來想請教部長，我的問題是，現在新政府上任之後，這樣子的政策指導是否有轉向的趨勢？上任之後是不是要把以前我們認知的精兵政策開始往全民防衛動員的方向去走？請問是或不是？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我要跟委員報告，精兵跟戰力是逐步在成長的，你也知道，我們的全民防衛動員，過去從後備動員制度裡面，因為烏克蘭戰爭，我們成立了全動署。全動署的目的就是要整合跨部會的功能，在全社會防衛韌性上來講，事實上是國際的潮流和趨勢。這個事來講的話，我們未來的全民防衛動員符合國際上的趨勢。同時，在所有戰爭，美軍也是這樣推全民社會防衛韌性。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是政策轉向了？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不是政策轉向。"],["牛委員煦庭：新的國防部……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是在精兵政策的情況下，在國際潮流的趨勢下，我們增加了全社會防衛韌性。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你認為是增加，而不是轉向？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我現在就要提一些概念。我們回到精兵政策來討論，114年度中央政府的總預算關於國防部主管，大概是4,760億，比去年增加大概415億，增幅9.57%，其中以軍事投資的預算增幅最高，明年軍事投資預計是1,457億，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：增幅大概是16.18%，接近17%左右，你當然是為了充實國防戰力，要去買非常多的軍事設備，本席不反對；但相對來講，我們的人員維持預算數是1,815億，占比反而從40%下降到38.14%，這當然就反映一點，也就是今天媒體報導的和前一段時間大家討論的志願役編現比不足，人數節節下降的問題，所以我才擔心。從國防部現在回答的角度，你說全民防衛是我們新增的業務，可是當你同時看到精兵的業務一直在退、一直在退的時候，當然大家就會解讀這有可能是一個政策的轉向。所以我現在要問的是，針對現在志願役人員的維持和待遇的增加有沒有一些方向？我跟副部長談一下，現在國軍的整體兵力編現比，從2020年的89%到88%，2022年降到80%，現在正在保八成的門檻，所以明年守得住嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，守得住。"],["牛委員煦庭：守得住？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這跟義務役的役期增加有關係……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我要這樣跟委員報告，事實上，人數不代表戰力，當然某些方面代表戰力，但是你也知道……"],["牛委員煦庭：不能光用總人數來看。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然，因為現在的戰爭是科技的戰爭。"],["牛委員煦庭：科技的戰爭，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個問題就是我後面要講的，因為戰鬥部隊的缺額問題，比你這個80%還低嘛，對不對？包含外島步兵、機步砲兵、裝步戰車、反裝甲等等，還有艦隊、戰術偵蒐、防空飛彈、憲兵指揮部等等，這是所謂的戰鬥部隊，它的缺額狀況其實比總體數據還要更加嚴重。那當然我們直觀上想第一件事，本席認為有三個，第一個是待遇；第二個是生涯規劃，剛剛鍾佳濱委員說得很好，生涯十年退休之後面對的是什麼？其實這都是政府的責任；第三個是社會的尊嚴，你不能讓國軍出去的時候沒有辦法抬頭挺胸，我們國家要敬軍愛民，這三個面向。誘因最直接，相對來講操作最簡單，也是你國防部可以主控的，當然就是待遇的問題，薪水由薪俸加加給來調整，大部分一直以來應該都在加給的提升，顧立雄部長也說，正在研擬新的加給方案，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，副部長，你應該是有經驗的，108年我們就在討論戰鬥部隊的加給提報案，過程中國防部吃了非常多行政院的排頭，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我覺得經費這件事情不是吃排頭，本來在國家的經費上來講，我們的經費要用在刀口上。"],["牛委員煦庭：當初你們在討論要幫軍人弟兄爭取待遇的時候，有沒有聽過行政院有一些聲音？我們就不要講是誰，他們說待遇已經夠高了、要考慮衡平性，這些壓力壓在你身上，有沒有過這樣的經驗？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，不會，我們都是在理性討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：理性討論是不是？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：前朝曾經有這樣的一些聲音出來，我覺得那個是不對的，國防部應該要解決剛剛我講的編現比跟戰鬥部隊缺員的問題，積極地來主張。新的加給方案什麼時候會有具體的進度跟時間？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，謝謝委員的提醒，這個東西我們一直在爭取當中，福利待遇都是我們國軍所關注的，也希望委員多支持我們。至於說未來怎麼去爭取，我們還要視財政狀況來決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有具體的時間表？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然有具體時間表，我們已經提出去了，我們希望在未來，甚至是反映到明年的預算裡面，我們都希望有這樣子的預算，希望委員多……"],["主席：希望部長能在一個月內。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月內會給大家？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望國防部一定守住自己本位，即使行政院有壓力，你也要堅守，好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們會，我們會。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛委員，各位請回。柏鴻輝就是前朝留下來的。","接下來進行詢答的委員是楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}