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謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請部長請陳部長"},{"start":23.206,"end":50.756,"text":"委員好部長好部長因為今天在討論這個公糧的收購價格事實上我過去也召開協調會甚至我在質詢的時候我也是有跟農業部這邊說如果我們在於針對農民的收入提高公糧的價格是可以考慮的一個辦法但是提高公糧價格我們除了稻農要照顧之外事實上還是有其他的農民"},{"start":51.676,"end":80.492,"text":"是,我想以農業部的立場就是說我們對產業對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧的一個方式對,所以事實上部長你也知道說就像嘉義啦嘉義或是雲林啦我們就是正好介在平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多那在沿海地方就是種植雜糧雜糧的部分那如果是雜糧你說黃小玉講玉米就好了講玉米"},{"start":82.393,"end":99.224,"text":"這個玉米的保價收購多少錢9塊現在是每公斤9塊9塊嘛對不對我看起來已經將近40年40年沒有調整那個不是保價那是契作的一個價格他是契作價格對他是契作價格所以他是沒有調整他唯一價格好的時候就是在"},{"start":101.205,"end":125.094,"text":"這個疫情的時候那個時候因為航運出問題他有把他的玉米價格有飆到了差不多12塊那是他最好的時候看起來隨著疫情的結束那航運現在已經都順暢了整個價格又掉下來現在又掉到7塊多所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民他是事實上種10年都覺得吃不公平"},{"start":126.204,"end":143.87,"text":"因為你如果想,我們好的土地有多少水路、有多少灌溉的,那些都是種稻米的,種雜糧的,他們就是叫做旱區,旱區本身他們那裡的水也比較少,那是全部都說白的,然後我再跟部長提示一個問題就是說,你們一直在說"},{"start":146.416,"end":159.689,"text":"像現在你們要說一級二轉那一級二轉的我講這個二轉二轉的精神就是說我們希望稻米減量稻米減量齁阿這個自然價格會上車嘛剛才講價格就會講到供需的問題阿"},{"start":161.531,"end":176.699,"text":"所以如果種植的減少了自然它的稻米的價格會上升這個是第一個問題第二個就是說我們還是希望這個把種稻因為台灣的稻米糧食過剩所以我們希望把種稻的面積轉為去做轉作轉作雜糧或轉作其他的類似蔬菜蔬果類那轉作的話我們有給它這個轉作金"},{"start":186.364,"end":211.437,"text":"對我跟委員報告就是說這些水稻因為二級做本身的收益就比較比一起做還不好所以我們希望說二級做的部分你如果轉成雜糧的部分轉成其他的部分我們給他一萬五的不重道獎勵以外那相對的這些後續送雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他我們也會補助一些農業的機械讓他也變成一個比較自動化的機械化的一個栽培"},{"start":212.177,"end":236.814,"text":"所以我們說有這個不中道獎金但是我要跟部長講這個在農民在實踐上有他的一個困難這個困難就是我要說的因為我們現在又我們有很多政策要大家一起來全面去看我們現在又有所謂四選三我們又有大區輪座但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選所以你現在說好我要把它轉成不中道獎金他去做"},{"start":237.814,"end":242.5,"text":"種植玉米他去種植漢作 但是他選擇的時候他最怕的是怕什麼 怕旁邊的人繼續要選中了"},{"start":245.919,"end":249.021,"text":"所以這就是委員一直在關心的那我們現在就是說以前是純粹當然沒有說都是自願的啦但是我們希望說他在輪座的時候能夠用一個集團的概念"},{"start":269.632,"end":285.161,"text":"去處理那這樣處理的時候會比較不會造成說隔壁中水道這就沒辦法我們期待他這個一定要你們用所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理政策誘因之外我感覺稍微施加強制啦你如果說我這區就要用4選3啊既然這樣就讓他們集體做4選3讓他們的決定一樣嘛"},{"start":292.106,"end":310.818,"text":"對,我想我會做相關的一個規範,這個部分委員上次有提到齁,我們已經在做一些規範,就是想辦法讓他們一致性,雖然說自願的,但是他的自願的一致性是非常重要的,這個部分我想我們會再做後續的更精進的一些誘因的設計。部長你也知道,我們最近我才跟你討論說,加金輪高位來齁,不要說紅胎啦,加煉水爐齁。對齁。"},{"start":321.485,"end":332.009,"text":"就困難,對,連種植綠肥都有困難了,對啊,所以你也知道說,你那種漢做的,尤其他在剛開始要補的時候,他是很怕水的,他怕水,像剛才說的,你沒有辦法做好整體的控管,等於是說,對於當地農民的種植,他是很困擾的,"},{"start":340.892,"end":353.182,"text":"所以我覺得我們農業部我們除了這樣一級二轉然後要去提高農民的收入事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的他們是可以去做的因為他們總會遇到很多這種我們沒辦法去預測的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":359.097,"end":380.407,"text":"阿第二個齁就是我要講到這個農業保險這個農業保險因為我上次只講到時間比較短齁就是說這個農業保險齁我們知道這個保險覆蓋率事實上剛剛那個郭國文委員有講到保險覆蓋率是一直偏向不足那這個保險覆蓋率不足勒主要還是說他除了強制"},{"start":381.447,"end":408.988,"text":"強制的部分之外你我們去用加強型的但是這個加強型的咧對於農民來說那個誘因就是機會起來雖然我們政府都有補助像我們在嘉義我們嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一啊農業部這邊也補助三分之一剩下的部分對農民來說大家都說保費不高可是問題他們去補的誘因就沒有啊所以我覺得部長你們有去跟農民聊然後去了解到底實際原因出在哪邊嗎"},{"start":411.228,"end":436.095,"text":"我已經請農金署重新去檢討第一個我覺得保單的設計非常重要保單的設計如果沒有當然理賠不是要去賺錢但是保單的設計一定要符合風險那另外一個就是保單理賠的時候的調查那個非常重要因為調查如果說你沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候就會造成很大的爭議那有一些保單是因為你理賠的爭議性造成農民覺得說"},{"start":437.515,"end":438.935,"text":"對於農民來說誘因不足這只有一個 他們覺得不合用而且現在我覺得農民還是都把這個"},{"start":460.737,"end":472.486,"text":"因為他們過去有天然災害的一個救助所以他們認為說既然有天然災害救助跟這個保險跟這個保險有災害救助然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因"},{"start":473.695,"end":477.558,"text":"對,我們會去設計,我跟你們報告齁,就是就我個人來講,我不要衝那個品項越來越多我寧願品項如果說覺得沒有什麼效果,我寧願關掉我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的"},{"start":499.272,"end":501.573,"text":"好,部長我最後一個問題齁我們那個鋪紙肉品市場那阿甲現在到底稍微選擇可以"},{"start":518.03,"end":523.754,"text":"現在對待的就是說若敏市長現在的經費現在大概都已經在那邊了但是相對的就是說他必須要有一個經營主體來去做這樣的一個承接那那個經營主體本身現在還談不攏"},{"start":539.406,"end":544.128,"text":"對,這個部分我想我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。那到底什麼時候可以發報?那現在工程應該可以先開始了吧?因為工程還是需要時間的,你要知道我們在於負值肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停的太早。"},{"start":560.194,"end":560.354,"text":"發言委員：蔡易餘"},{"start":585.94,"end":609.364,"text":"現在看到你到底是誰才可以新建這個事情我跟委員報告那個經營主體要出來才能提計畫才能夠去執行啊而不是說因為現在沒有一個一個主體去提計畫來執行那因為包括我們的嘉義縣政府嘛然後還有續展會嘛然後還有嘉義的這些農會的部分嘛"},{"start":609.804,"end":620.175,"text":"那這三個三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提那這三方現在還在做協調我們會來努力做一個基本的協調這個協調也好久了那到底問題是出在哪邊"},{"start":622.357,"end":639.779,"text":"這個我想有他們的不同的想法啦那這個部分我想可能後續我們還會再努力啦部長我覺得這個是要加速啦因為那個官黑後面是很多人的包括是他整個我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情都出總控了對因為肉品"},{"start":640.539,"end":667.529,"text":"菩提肉餅市長是一個典範他是一個那個土體的分級的一個那個拍賣的部分他跟現在的活住拍賣是不一樣的所以他是一個我們也很期望他趕快大家都期待啊但是隨著時間一直拖一年一年過去我們盡量來協調他們的經營主體應該新建跟不用再等多久的時間這課程要再拖很久的我非常感動的不然我們經費掛在那邊也不是辦法好好趕快加速麻煩謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1208,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時1分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，因為今天在討論公糧收購價格，事實上我過去也召開協調會，甚至我在質詢的時候也是有跟農業部這邊說，針對農民的收入，提高公糧價格是可以考慮的一個辦法，但是提高公糧價格，我們除了稻農要照顧之外，事實上還是有其他的農民，所以……"],["陳部長駿季：是，以農業部的立場，我們對所有的農民都要有比較一致性的照顧方式。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。事實上部長你也知道，像嘉義或是雲林，我們平原的地方大概都是種植稻米比較多，在沿海地方就是種植雜糧。"],["陳部長駿季：雜糧的部分，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是雜糧，你說黃小玉，講玉米就好了，玉米的保價收購是多少錢？9元？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是每公斤9元。"],["蔡委員易餘：9元嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是，那是契作的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：我看起來已經將近40年沒有調整。"],["陳部長駿季：那個不是保價，那是契作的價格。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，它是契作價格，所以它沒有調整。它唯一價格好的時候就是在疫情的時候，那個時候因為航運出問題，玉米價格飆到差不多12元，那是它最好的時候。看起來隨著疫情的結束，航運現在已經都順暢了，整個價格又掉下來，現在大概掉到7塊多，所以你現在對於種植雜糧的農民，事實上種雜糧的都覺得很不公平啦！因為你想想看，我們好的土地，有給它做水路，有給它做灌溉的，那裡都是種稻米的，那種雜糧的咧？哇！他們就是叫做旱區，旱區那裡的水也比較少，這是很不公平的。","我再跟部長提示一個問題，像現在你們要做1集、2轉，我講這個2轉，2轉的精神就是我們希望稻米減量，稻米減量自然價格會上升嘛！剛才在講雞蛋就有講到供需的問題，所以如果種植減少了，自然稻米的價格會上升，這是第一個問題。第二個，因為臺灣的稻米糧食過剩，所以我們希望把種稻的面積去做轉作，轉作雜糧或轉作其他類似蔬菜、蔬果類，那轉作的話，我們有給他轉作金。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是說這些水稻，因為二期作本身的收益比一期作還不好，所以我們希望二期作的部分，你如果轉成雜糧、轉作其他的部分，我們會給他一萬五的不種稻獎勵以外，相對的，後續種雜糧的部分我們也會引導一些集團栽培來協助他，我們會補助一些農業的機械，讓它也變成一個比較自動化、機械化的栽培。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，所以我們有這個不種稻獎金嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是我要跟部長講，農民在實踐上有他的困難，這些困難就是我要說的，因為我們很多的政策要大家一起全面去看，像現在有所謂的四選三，又有大區輪作，但是我們的四選三是讓農民去選，所以你現在說好，我要把它轉成不種稻獎金，讓他去種植玉米，讓他去種植旱作，但是他種植的時候，最怕的是什麼？怕旁邊的人繼續種稻。如果我這塊田要種玉米，我旁邊的人繼續種稻，他一樣在灌溉，水淹上來就會滲透到我這塊田，所以我種植的玉米就會失敗，我就種不起來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以這就是委員一直在關心的。我們以前是純粹，當然沒有說都是自願的啦！但是我們希望他在輪作的時候，能夠用一個集團的概念去處理，這樣處理的時候比較不會造成隔壁種水稻……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！可是部長，我們沒辦法來期待他，這個一定要你們用……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們有一些政策的誘因去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，政策誘因之外，我覺得要稍微施加強制啦！如果說這一區要用四選三，既然這樣就讓他們集體做四選三，讓他們的決定一樣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會做相關的規範，這個部分委員上次有提到，我們已經在做一些規範，就是想辦法讓他們一致性，雖然說自願的，但是他自願的一致性是非常重要的，我們會再做後續更精進的一些誘因設計。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長你也知道，因為最近我才跟你討論說這2個月來，不要說颱風，光是連續下雨，連種玉米的都沒辦法去播種，連種植綠肥的……"],["陳部長駿季：就很困難。"],["蔡委員易餘：連種植綠肥都有困難了耶！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！所以你也知道那種旱作的，尤其剛開始要播種的時候是很怕水的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果它怕水，就像我剛才說的，你沒有辦法做好整體的控管，這對當地農民的種植來說，他們是很困擾的。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我覺得農業部除了1集、2轉，然後要去提高農民的收入，事實上很多配套措施還是要讓整個農作是順暢的。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為他們總會遇到很多沒辦法去預測的狀況，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，好。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個要講到農業保險，因為我上次時間比較短沒講完。我們知道農業保險的覆蓋率，事實上剛剛郭國文委員也有講到，保險覆蓋率一直偏向不足，保險覆蓋率不足主要是它除了強制的部分之外，我們去用加強型的，但是加強型對於農民來說，那個誘因就是拉不起來。","雖然政府都有補助，像我們在嘉義，嘉義縣政府又再補助三分之一，農業部這邊也補助三分之一，剩下的部分對農民來說，大家都說保費不高，問題是他們去保的誘因就沒有啊！所以我請問部長，你們有去跟農民聊，然後去瞭解實際原因到底出在哪邊嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我已經請農金署重新去檢討，第一個，我覺得保單的設計非常重要，當然理賠不是要去賺錢，但是保單的設計一定要符合風險。","另外一個就是保單理賠的調查，那個非常重要，因為調查如果沒有一個比較均勻的樣本數的時候，就會造成很大的爭議。有一些保單是因為理賠的爭議性，造成農民覺得他保了也沒用，所以這個部分包括面積、保單的設計，包括調查的方法和理賠的標準，我們都會重新檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想這部分就是大家去檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：對啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對於農民來說誘因不足，他們覺得不好用，而且因為他們過去有天然災害救助，所以他們認為既然有天然災害救助，然後這個保險沒有更好的誘因，他們就會去賭看看啦！大家都在賭不會遇到颱風，自然就不用花這筆保費，大家都這麼賭，所以我覺得那個誘因可能還是要再提高。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會去設計。我跟委員報告，就我個人來講，我不要衝品項越來越多，如果覺得品項沒有什麼效果我寧願關掉，我寧願讓開的保單都是農民需要的，然後也真正照顧農民，這是我一個大原則，所以我們叫它重新檢討，不是一直在衝品項越來越多，而是希望已經開的保單是對農民有幫助的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，我最後一個問題，朴子肉品市場到底什麼時候可以開始興建？你們把它拆掉之後就一直拖到現在。"],["陳部長駿季：現在最大的問題是，肉品市場的經費大概都已經在那邊了，但是相對的，它必須要有一個經營主體去做承接。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是這個不是討論好久了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，那個經營主體本身，現在還談不攏。"],["蔡委員易餘：還談不攏？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分我們會後有機會再跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果經營主體出來的話……"],["陳部長駿季：那就可以直接開始去處理了。"],["蔡委員易餘：到底什麼時候可以發包？現在工程應該可以先開始了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：後面就是提計畫去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為你工程還是需要時間耶！你要知道，我們在朴子肉品市場的決策就是當時把它停得太早了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們很早就把它喊停了。"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：結果當時在那裡工作的，這幾年沒有辦法在裡面就業，對於這些肉品承銷人也增加了他的不便利，當然這部分我們農業部有補助他，但是問題一直都還在啊！這些問題又要等到興建好，正式營運上路後才有辦法解決耶！你們到底什麼時候可以興建，這件事情我們大家都不知道。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，經營主體要出來才能提計畫去執行，現在是沒有一個主體去提計畫來執行，因為包括嘉義縣政府、畜產會還有嘉義的農會，三方要合資成一個公司以後再來提，這三方現在還在做協調，我們會來努力做一個基本的協調。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個協調也好久了耶！到底問題是出在哪邊？"],["陳部長駿季：我想他們有不同的想法啦！那這個部分，可能後續我們還要再努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，我覺得這個要加速。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為它的背後關係到很多人。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括我們嘉義地區肉品的產業鏈都因為這件事情而出狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為朴子肉品市場是一個典範，它是屠體分級的拍賣，與現在的活豬拍賣是不一樣的，所以我們也很期望它能夠趕快興建完成。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家都期待啊！但是隨著時間一直拖，一年一年過去。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們儘量協調他們的經營主體。"],["蔡委員易餘：你要想，你們到興建難道不需要一年多的時間？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這可能還要拖很久，我很煩惱耶！"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們會努力，不然我們經費掛在那邊也不是辦法。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，麻煩趕快加速。"],["陳部長駿季：是。好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","李坤城","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","羅智強","賴士葆","涂權吉","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","徐富癸","黃建賓","許宇甄","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案」進行報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}