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辛苦了不過剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的一個部分的時候有講到說斑斑有鮮奶這樣的一個政策不是我們農業部說啊"},{"start":37.279,"end":64.636,"text":"我想斑斑有鮮奶這幾個字不是我們對外的一個宣導那我們正式的一個計畫是把我們的國產的這些產銷優質的這些牛奶進到學校那相對的他不只是鮮奶我就好奇啊教育文化委員會教育部部長、次長、農業部次長來立院報告也是斑斑有鮮奶的準備執行"},{"start":66.33,"end":92.536,"text":"這是教育文化委員會那一天交委他的一個這個題目那今天行政院17號今天早上也下令斑斑有些奶改推新措施啊認了政策有瑕疵啊所以與其我們一直在講這個說法這個這個名稱跟我們的計畫內容不一定因為現在全國國人都知道而且是連那個我們教育部或說連行政院也都認為說政策就是這個樣子啊"},{"start":93.737,"end":113.071,"text":"所以我覺得與其說我們還要去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這個事情倒不如說怎麼樣來思考精進這一件事情我非常同意齁就是因為是剛才有委員說我們在推先來我說我強調的是那個先來的字就是說我們當初給學校的時候尊重學校的一個訂購因為一開始會聽到第一個掰掰有先來的時候其實我就擔憂喔"},{"start":118.809,"end":147.228,"text":"學校有偏鄉有山區有海邊有大的學校我的選區裡面光本席的選區就好有大的學校一屆一千多人將近兩千人也有小的學校六個年級加起來18人那這樣子的一個落差你有辦法真的做到斑斑有鮮奶嗎沒有辦法嗎所以說到目前為止我即便我問了教育部部長教育部部長我甚至問他說即便是薄酒乳啦"},{"start":148.325,"end":176.252,"text":"你到今年年底前有沒有辦法他不敢回答我那什麼意思就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶喝到鮮奶喝到優質奶本席都同意但是不需要用這樣子來去做轉變然後到最後好像一推二五六教育部不認說這是農業部的事農業部不認說這個跟計畫不相干我想農業部絕對沒有不認好部長所以本席比較那個你班班有牛奶嗎"},{"start":177.452,"end":184.988,"text":"那斑斑有牛奶可能有人講說那羊奶算不算好的牛奶斑斑有優質奶嘛斑斑有好乳嘛"},{"start":186.998,"end":207.405,"text":"什麼時候會有新的措施出來?我想我們分兩個階段第一個階段就是在這一學期本身這個學期還是一樣照走那什麼時候會有新的措施?那新的措施我想一個很重要的原則就是說我們如果推的新的政策絕對不會影響到增加學校的負擔這個是一個非常重要的"},{"start":207.805,"end":209.547,"text":"這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部?"},{"start":231.545,"end":259.991,"text":"我想是一起努力的啦一起努力還是會有因為兩個和尚是挑水喝你知道嗎我知道所以不管怎麼樣我的意思是說到底現在這個亂象已經造成了那接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會還是農業部主導找教育部來開會我想我剛才說的兩個部會一起合作但是農業部一定會負更大的責任針對整個供應量做有系統的確保這個部分才會接下來就是由"},{"start":260.691,"end":261.572,"text":"本席回到今天的一個題目"},{"start":280.768,"end":308.954,"text":"行政部門應該要尊重立法部門是行政部門應該要去瞭解掌握立法部門到底提出這樣的一個政策有什麼樣的一個前因後果那尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說啊我沒有反對你的什麼3加3的這些相關的政策但是重點是農糧收購跟這3加3其實它不衝突啊"},{"start":309.634,"end":331.622,"text":"有一些政策來講我沒有說要你只能選A不能選B只能選B不能選A而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做你一方面你可以精進你一方面你可以改良一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友他們持續但另外一方面反映物價的一個部分那還有我必須要強調您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這一個提案裡面有哪個黨團反對嗎"},{"start":335.868,"end":363.215,"text":"在組決議的時候沒有沒有黨團反對嘛 對不對那就代表是說這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個組決議啊我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱好像講的好像講的是說欸對不能提高收購那如果說不能提高收購這個組決議的話那7月16號沒有任何人有異議這是在打假球啊"},{"start":365.231,"end":374.241,"text":"委員長你剛剛已經講了嘛7月16號我們上個會期的最後一天所值那個主決議處理的時候我們來看一下會議紀錄主席說報告院會現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有意義沒有人有意義啊"},{"start":382.867,"end":411.652,"text":"民進黨沒有半個人有異議當天的現況是所有黨團都甲級動員113席立法委員全都坐在座位上民進黨沒有任何人有異議照案通過台灣民眾黨的附帶決議請問院會有無異議沒有異議所以換言之連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對或者說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格那現在你會不會覺得有點像被放生的感覺"},{"start":413.429,"end":423.801,"text":"民進黨的委員他那個時候不敢有異議然後現在要嘛就跟你一帶一上要嘛就他乾脆不來也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購的價格的部分"},{"start":426.002,"end":451.349,"text":"我跟委員報告兩件事情第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了只是說不能現在調不能把虧底做給國民黨團民眾黨團絕對不是我從來不會有這種想法我也希望你不要有這種想法我的想法就是說我在這一個政策推動之下會不會造成我們現在原來的政策有所"},{"start":452.469,"end":455.11,"text":"其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整我已經預期你會這樣講了但是我們現在看的是方方面面這也是你是身為一個農業部部長你應該要看到的"},{"start":476.323,"end":476.343,"text":"好"},{"start":505.492,"end":516.154,"text":"最後我想你是鐵板一塊部長抱歉我最後一分鐘稍微已經站起來我只是提一下這個是一個新的展覽你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題"},{"start":518.25,"end":536.303,"text":"這個展覽呢它其實在其他國家已經有十幾年了不過呢也有很多的獸醫師會認為是說這其實對於魚類的健康是不利就是說因為它你看起來它很漂亮沒有錯我也覺得說一看畫面很漂亮但是它在裡面是有很多的光線很多的玻璃那其實"},{"start":537.584,"end":563.578,"text":"還有一些是閃光那強光跟閃光其實對魚是不利的再者藍色紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的那現在這個展覽好像是已經有經過相關的許可了那我們也有去查相關的一個法令規定就是說動物展演的部分其實要嘛就受地方政府的一個許可要嘛就是中央政府的公告免許可"},{"start":565.344,"end":565.665,"text":"已經有新聞了"},{"start":580.674,"end":582.335,"text":"因為本席過去到現在對於動物展演的部分特別希望能夠加強我們的相關法律"},{"start":607.492,"end":614.919,"text":"所以後續我也會再跟我們農業部再來請教未來有沒有在法令上改進的空間我們一起來努力好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1286,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時13分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，辛苦了！剛剛本席聽到你回答幾個委員的時候，有講到班班有鮮奶這個政策不是農業部說的。"],["陳部長駿季：「班班有鮮奶」這幾個字不是我們對外的宣導，我們正式的計畫是把國產的這些產銷優質的牛奶……"],["洪委員孟楷：優質嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：優質的牛奶進到學校，那相對的，它不只是鮮奶。"],["洪委員孟楷：不過我就好奇啊！在教育及文化委員會，教育部部長、農業部次長來立院報告也是班班有鮮奶的整備和執行，這個是教育及文化委員會那一天召委的題目，那行政院在17日，在今天早上也下令班班有鮮奶改推新措施，認了政策有瑕疵，所以與其我們一直在講這個名稱跟計畫內容不一定相同，因為現在全國國人都知道，而且是連教育部、連行政院都認為政策就是這個樣子，所以我覺得與其去爭辯說我們當初沒有講這件事情，倒不如來思考怎麼樣精進這件事情。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我非常同意。因為剛才有委員說我們在推鮮奶，我就說我強調的是那個鮮奶的字，我們當初給學校的時候是尊重學校的訂購。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，歹勢，因為一開始聽到第一個班班有鮮奶的時候，其實我就擔憂哦！學校有偏鄉，有山區，有海邊，光本席的選區就好，有大的學校一屆一千多人將近2,000人，也有小的學校6個年級加起來18人，這樣子的一個落差，你真的有辦法做到班班有鮮奶嗎？沒有辦法嘛！所以說到目前為止，即便我問了教育部部長，我甚至問他說即便是保久乳，你到今年年底以前有沒有辦法？他不敢回答我，那是什麼意思？就代表說政策的初衷我們要支持，政策的初衷可以給小朋友喝到牛奶，喝到鮮奶，喝到優質奶，本席都同意，但是不需要用這樣子去做轉變，然後到最後好像一推二五六，教育部不認，說這是農業部的事；農業部不認，說這個和計畫不相干。"],["陳部長駿季：我想農業部絕對沒有不認這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，你班班有牛奶嘛！那班班有牛奶，可能也會講說羊奶算不算好的牛奶？班班有優質奶嘛！班班有好乳嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會有新的措施出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個階段，第一個階段就是在這一學期本身，我們對已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個學期還是一樣照走。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會有新的措施？"],["陳部長駿季：新的措施一個很重要的原則，就是我們如果推了新的政策，絕對不會增加學校的負擔，這個是非常重要的。第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為教育第一線現場已經有太多的亂象。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們說新的措施一定不會影響到，而且是縣市政府願意來配合的方式。第二個，如果有鮮奶的部分，我們一定會確保鮮奶從乳廠一直到學校班級上面，一定確保它的冷鏈系統不斷鏈。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那這個政策主導到底是教育部還是農業部？"],["陳部長駿季：我想是一起努力的啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：一起努力還是會有……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為兩個和尚是挑水喝，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我想農業部本身……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不管怎麼樣，我的意思是說，現在這個亂象已經造成了，接下來是由教育部主導找農業部來開會，還是農業部主導找教育部來開會？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說了，兩個部會一起合作，但是農業部一定會負更大的責任，針對整個供應量做有系統的確保，接下來就是看用什麼樣的方式讓牛奶進到學校，學校本身就是要讓我們的學童喝得到鮮乳或是保久乳，不管怎麼樣，就是牛奶的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，真的不要德政變擾民。"],["陳部長駿季：不會，我們會從冷鏈……"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，本席回到今天的題目，行政部門應該要尊重立法部門。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門應該要去瞭解掌握立法部門提出這個政策有什麼樣的前因後果，尤其是我記得上個會期本席是黨團的三長之一，我們在朝野協商的時候我也一直說，我沒有反對你的3加3這些相關的政策，但是重點是，農糧收購跟這個3加3其實不衝突啊！有一些政策來講，我們沒有要你只能選A不能選B、只能選B不能選A，而是怎麼樣能夠大規模做，一方面你可以精進，一方面你可以改良，一方面你可以鼓勵農民朋友持續，但另外一方面反映物價的部分。還有，我必須要強調，您知道在農糧提高價格收購的這個提案裡面，有哪個黨團反對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：在主決議的時候沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有黨團反對嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表這是立法院113席立法委員共同的一個主決議啊！我現在聽到有一些執政黨的朋友開始跟你在那邊一搭一唱，好像在說對，不能提高收購，那如果說不能提高收購，這個主決議在7月16日沒有任何人有異議，這是在打假球啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛已經講了嘛！7月16日，我們上個會期的最後一天，那個主決議在處理的時候，我們來看一下會議紀錄，主席說報告院會，現在國民黨的附帶決議有沒有異議？沒有人有異議啊！民進黨沒有半個人有異議啊！當天的現況是所有的黨團都甲級動員，113席立法委員全都坐在座位上，民進黨沒有任何人有異議，照案通過。台灣民眾黨的附帶決議，請問院會，有無異議？沒有異議，所以換言之，連民進黨的委員他們也不敢反對，或是說他們也支持農糧收購要提高價格啊！現在你會不會覺得很像被放生的感覺？民進黨的委員那個時候不敢有異議，然後現在要嘛就跟你一搭一唱，要嘛就是他乾脆不來，也不去支持你現在不編列農糧收購價格的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告兩件事情，第一件事情就是我們在考慮公糧提高價格，我並沒有說公糧價格以後都不調了，只是說我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能現在調？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能把credit做給國民黨團、民眾黨團？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不是，我從來不會有這種想法，因為我的想法就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我也希望你不要有這個想法。"],["陳部長駿季：我的想法就是說，我在這一個政策推動之下，會不會造成原來的政策有所變化，特別是我們最近一直在推四選三、大區輪作及相關的轉旱作部分，如果公糧提高的話，會把過去的努力抵銷了。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實抵銷不抵銷這個是政策工具的調整，我已經預期你會這樣講了啦！但是我們現在看的是方方面面，這也是你身為一個農業部部長應該要看到的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：各個方面都有意見，說實在每一個團體或是說每一個要求，我們也不可能照單全收，但我們現在提出來的主決議，這個是立法院113席委員都照案通過沒有異議的，如果行政部門連這樣的一個主決議都可以不遵守的話，那很抱歉，天下大亂！這已經是涉及違憲了，因為變成是行政部門沒有尊重立法部門所做的決議，好，我想你是鐵板一塊啦！","抱歉，我最後1分鐘，召委已經站起來，我只是提一下啦！這是一個新的展覽，你也知道我長期都關心動物保護的議題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個展覽在其他國家已經有十幾年了，不過也有很多獸醫師認為這對於魚類的健康是不利的，你看起來牠是很漂亮沒有錯，我也覺得一看畫面很漂亮，但是牠在裡面是有很多的光線、很多的玻璃，還有一些是閃光，強光和閃光其實對魚是不利的，再者，藍色、紫色的顏色對魚是刺激的。現在這個展覽好像已經有經過相關的許可，我們也有去查相關的法令規定，動物展演的部分，要嘛就受地方政府的許可，要嘛就是中央政府公告免許可，它就可以做這個展覽。"],["陳部長駿季：像這個是免經許可的部分，但是我們覺得以這種方式，對於動物來講是不友善的作為，所以我們已經行文給臺北市政府這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經有行文了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：已經行文了，希望在動保處的部分，因為11月才開展，所以我們希望它能夠重新考量這樣的設計，雖然說表面上很漂亮，可是那種不同的燈光、不同的波長對魚的一些影響，有的研究甚至還沒有出現，我們希望它從動物福利的角度重新去思考這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，因為本席過去到現在對動物展演的部分，特別希望能夠加強我們相關的法令，所以後續我會再跟農業部來請教，未來在法令上有沒有改進的空間，我們一起來努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：部長，剛剛所講的班班有牛奶這些問題，本席建議的牛奶券就可以解決所有的問題，請你趕快地研議，謝謝。","接下來請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","李坤城","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","羅智強","賴士葆","涂權吉","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","徐富癸","黃建賓","許宇甄","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長就「農業部對於立法院決議提高公糧收購價格之評估與執行方案」進行報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}