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那我請教一下那如果憲法法庭竟然要保障人民的權利那有沒有保障我們基層公務員你認為有沒有當然也包含基層公務員包含基層公務員好 我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利去年憲判第15號保障公務員勤領慰問金所以如果台灣憲法法庭不只會阻礙人民救濟也侵害了公務員的權益你是不是認同"},{"start":142.691,"end":163.77,"text":"憲法訴訟法不是由來已久了,它是107年才通過。大法官解釋憲法程序的嚴格,民國37年是司法院大法官會議規則。47年開始有了大法官會議法。"},{"start":164.744,"end":190.854,"text":"到了82年大法官審理案件法這當中到82年之前這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統國民黨或有國會絕對都是有通過的所以你認為這樣的一個程序有變成是一黨一派之私嗎還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責"},{"start":192.074,"end":220.8,"text":"你覺得他是一黨一派決定的還是有體現了大法官視線的尊重他的獨立視線的權責是前者還後者跟委員報告我想擔任大法官的他不應該我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統國民黨控制的國會通過的你覺得他是一黨一派嗎還是他覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神我想大法官擔任以後不會去考慮黨派應該是你還是誤會我的意思這些法條"},{"start":221.92,"end":223.923,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":239.964,"end":257.575,"text":"這個問題到底是現有總和法定總和由來已久在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候第13條那時候寫大法官總和過半數民國八十一年審查的時候請問一下那時候秘書長是不是叫王嘉穎那時候的王新邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的不知道那時候都是國民黨的啦"},{"start":263.134,"end":282.299,"text":"好這裡呢從總額過半變成現有總額過半我們看下一頁怎麼來的當時的討論呢是國民黨的委員王新邦問王嘉儀秘書長他說欸你們這個總額怎麼算的他說是以現有人數計算和以前的立法院一樣那時候總額是17位假如總統通過13名17位就會發生問題"},{"start":285.76,"end":300.919,"text":"所以王新邦就說那會不會因為總額兩個字有歧義到底是什麼總額產生困難王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思啊所以國民黨委員說那邊修改明確一下比較好他說那如果你修改成現有人數我也不反對啦"},{"start":301.48,"end":325.232,"text":"所以最後結果是什麼?最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候呢那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員民進黨只有一位陳委員主席經過協商之後把大法官總額加上現有兩個字沒有意義沒有哪黨哪派去打他去影響他所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額你老姊同意嗎?"},{"start":326.232,"end":327.072,"text":"憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":349.079,"end":366.988,"text":"立法委員在臨時會的69條跟修憲的時候174條都是寫立法委員前條寫初期立法委員的幾分之幾後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算初期立法委員很清楚立法委員是以多少額數來算"},{"start":370.511,"end":387.209,"text":"時間到後來憲法徵修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義就寫全體立法委員那時候全體立法委員在徵修條文裡面有幾個權力罷免總統對行政院的法律案復議對行政院提出不信任案變更領土彈劾都是要全體立法委員"},{"start":389.53,"end":407.135,"text":"立法委員執行司法全體立法委員分別在第二至一章到第四章到第四至一章一共五個章節國情報告人事同意權復議不信任彈劾跟罷免這六個權利在行使的時候都必須以全體立法委員為總額那你同意嗎這是事實嘛"},{"start":408.795,"end":434.974,"text":"但是呢我們立法委員諮詢審查為了定義什麼要全體立法委員在88年的時候國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條總額三分之一以上指的開會而總額是什麼規定呢以每會期的實際報導人數扣掉辭職、去職跟頑固很清楚立法院自己在對自己的全體立法院的解釋總額怎麼定他自己的諮詢審查寫得清清楚明明白白你也認同嗎"},{"start":436.653,"end":463.175,"text":"不只認同你們的後來的規則呢都放進去了我們看下一頁你們現在呢這個國民黨立法委員呢現在修什麼修立法委員總和就不修你們第四條是修什麼修司法院大法官是現有總和你們的現有總和是指大法官的人數那請問一下請問一下目前憲法訴訟法當中有沒有提到立法委員的條文"},{"start":473.36,"end":492.005,"text":"立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對但是呢有額數的限制所以我們看一下齁當時你們的法庭審理規則第56條全盤照抄就是把立法院的職員刑事法裡面的規定是以立法院限額總額扣掉辭職去職員死亡而且以每會期的實際暴露人數"},{"start":493.728,"end":516.471,"text":"憲法訴訟條文現在立法院的總額是多少?是不是113人?結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候沒有用113人的算喔!是用現有的來算喔!但是大法官要事先決定人民的權益的時候呢卻要用憲法的規定來算,雙標啦!我們來看一下下一頁,給大家看一下齁"},{"start":518.075,"end":531.522,"text":"司法院大法官會議審議法第五條過去是怎樣?立法委員縣有總和三分之一就可以提出申請,是不是這樣?這是過去的規定嘛,是不是?而且你們的私信記者還寫什麼?每會期實際報導人數為準啊。"},{"start":535.302,"end":555.324,"text":"在第九屆立法院的時候國民黨的人數未達三分之一啊所以當時國民黨提出釋憲還要找五黨籍的高精素美委員才能提出釋憲申請你有印象嗎有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高精委員湊足的三分之一請求釋憲有沒有"},{"start":557.989,"end":572.628,"text":"所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出四憲案那時候本席就提出了什麼提出了說把憲法總和從三分之一降到了四分之一"},{"start":573.737,"end":595.175,"text":"其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私就要看不應當時他是多數黨還是少數黨來決定要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定能夠彰顯出主權在民民主政治的精神而定所以我們看一下當時本席要提出上一章"},{"start":596.316,"end":599.518,"text":"司法院自己的規則完全follow 立法院自己職權心事的規定,他就跟著規定,你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院?"},{"start":618.823,"end":633.94,"text":"司法院有沒有尊重立法院應該是有因為憲法總委的解釋一向如此一向如此所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定你們的規則就照抄這就是憲法機關相互尊重尊重各自獨立的權限的一個精神的體現下一頁"},{"start":635.066,"end":650.327,"text":"所以我們來看一下我們看到了施行日期為什麼要緩衝在107年大法官案件審理法的時候第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的申請所以必須要公佈三年後施行是不是這樣的意思"},{"start":651.556,"end":653.817,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期"},{"start":670.302,"end":690.195,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法通過之後因為還有相關的這些審理細則這些執法規定要去定那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的所以才這個實施的日期由司法院定之好所以我們看看翁委員的提案要求公佈後就實施法律的事情點向一頁法律的事情點往上"},{"start":692.351,"end":708.302,"text":"道交條例執行複雜由行政機關執定各部位組織法要配合主改的時程人民團體法配合民法大修施行日期貼合民法所有法律的施行日期都有各別不同的考量沒有全部都是公告之律實施的"},{"start":712.264,"end":727.985,"text":"本席要在這裡主席也站起來了吼目前來為所提的憲法訴訟第九十五條的修正草案至公佈入實施啊這個其實呢會造成很多對人民的衝擊不顧及民眾準備充足的時間來申請的權益你覺得有沒有這個顧慮"},{"start":729.824,"end":749.09,"text":"委員報告因為現在已經公告受理的我們也擔心說立刻實施的時候那麼這已經公告受理的案件也沒有辦法進入最後對不起主席最後就是關於迴避的問題雖然這個迴避剛剛我們羅志祥委員提到了他說如果迴避的話你舉那個例子我仔細去講15個人6個人因為成台大任教只剩9個人參與懲判"},{"start":750.37,"end":779.315,"text":"所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定所以呢你們提出了第30條跟43條目前這兩條是近乎二讀嘛主席是不是這樣子是近乎二讀嘛好那如果你把總額改成法定總額就不會發生因迴避人數過多而有少數到法院決定嗎我們來看一下最後一頁了最後一頁了法定總額你把憲法總額改成法定總額不只雙標你沒有看看自己的我們的憲法訴訟法裡面的49條立法委員提出事先申請"},{"start":780.015,"end":783.658,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十一條條文要申請迴避怎樣?"},{"start":783.658,"end":785.96,"text":"要其他大法官過半數啊?"},{"start":800.635,"end":821.893,"text":"其他大法官是多少?請問你知道這個額數嗎?如果修法之後其他大法官是多少額數?因為知道其他大法官多少人我才能確定過半數嗎?如果要用法定額數的話第12條依本法迴避這大法官不記錄現有總額現有總額不記錄由其他大法官的現有大法官過半數來同意就可以了"},{"start":822.654,"end":847.166,"text":"但是如果改成法定總額呢?憲法訴訟法第12條也在翁委員第4條的修正範圍內。法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦!既然叫法定,什麼法?憲法!憲法訴訟條文幾席?15席!15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎?不行!所以我這裡做個結論齁!"},{"start":849.332,"end":853.616,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案（事由．併案審查��"},{"start":869.492,"end":869.512,"text":"鍾佳濱"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:51:49.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:51:54.037000+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:51:54.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:00.539000+08:00","text":"修法過程我們有問題想請教一下司法院的黃副秘書長。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:00.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:02.140000+08:00","text":"主席，想請教黃副秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:02.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:08.183000+08:00","text":"麻煩副秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:08.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:08.404000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:09.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:09.745000+08:00","text":"黃副秘你好。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:10.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:18.112000+08:00","text":"我的標題是「癱瘓憲法法庭人民救濟無門，總額認定雙標施行日不顧民」，前面這一段你剛剛大概也講了。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:19.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:27.079000+08:00","text":"請問一下聲請釋憲案，機關、立法委員、法院跟人民這四者都可以提出，以目前為止你所知道的，誰的比例最高？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:27.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:52:43.557500+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前聲請這些釋憲，98%以上都是人民聲請，絕大部分涉及到人民的基本權利。好。","quality":0.27},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:52:43.557500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:00.036000+08:00","text":"其實外界可能有個誤解，以為這次藍白合作要針對司法院、針對憲法訴訟法來下手，是因為對大法官不滿，對憲法法庭凍結他們上個會期的國會擴權案有所不滿，以為憲法法庭好像專門在跟立法院國會的多數作對，其實不然。","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:00.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:08.100000+08:00","text":"我們看到這個統計，憲法法庭受理的案子絕大部分是人民，不管是舊制時期還是新制時期，94%到98%都是以人民申請最高。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:08.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:28.209000+08:00","text":"所以我看到昨天的報紙說，目前藍委提案提高釋憲判決的門檻，遇到大法官的提名任命懸而未決，致人數不足額，低於10人的時候就無法評議、無法裁判，不能執行釋憲職責的嚴重結果，就是傷到人民尋求權利救濟，是不是這樣？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:29.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:35.472000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，憲法法庭既然要保障人民的權利，那有沒有保障我們基層公務員，你認為有沒有？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:36.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:38.833000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，當然也包含基層公務員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:38.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:55.241000+08:00","text":"好，我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利，去年憲判第15號保障公務員請領慰問金，所以如果癱瘓憲法法庭，不只會阻礙人民救濟，也侵害了公務員的權益，你是不是認同？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:55.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:56.241000+08:00","text":"應該是這個樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:56.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:53:57.241000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:53:56.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:54:36.591000+08:00","text":"我們來看，其實憲法訴訟法不是由來已久，它是107年才通過的，我們看過去大法官解釋憲法程序的沿革，民國37年是司法院大法官會議規則，47年開始有了大法官會議法，到了82年大法官審理案件法，這當中到82年之前，這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統、國民黨握有國會絕對多數的時候通過的，所以你認為這樣的程序，有變成是一黨一派之私嗎？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:54:36.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:54:44.854000+08:00","text":"還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案，能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:54:46.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:54:52.655000+08:00","text":"你覺得它是一黨一派決定的，還是有體現尊重大法官獨立釋憲的權責？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:54:52.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:54:53.235000+08:00","text":"是前者還是後者？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:54:55.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:54:58.457000+08:00","text":"我想擔任大法官的，他不應該……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:54:58.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:04.958000+08:00","text":"我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統、國民黨控制的國會通過的，你覺得它是一黨一派嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:04.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:09.139000+08:00","text":"還是覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:09.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:11.679000+08:00","text":"我想大法官擔任以後，不會去考慮黨派啦！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:12.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:12.699000+08:00","text":"應該是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:12.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:15.920000+08:00","text":"你還是誤會我的意思了，這些法條難道是有一黨一派的決定，讓大法官要聽國民黨的嗎？","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:15.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:20.431000+08:00","text":"不會吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:20.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:24.942000+08:00","text":"應該不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:24.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:29.453000+08:00","text":"不會，好，很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:29.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:33.964000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下馬英九時期，到了104年的時候，全部的大法官都是他任命的；到了107年蔡英文前總統的時候，才有憲法訴訟法的制定。","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:33.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:47.853000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，這個問題到底是現有總額、法定總額，由來已久，在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候，第十三條那時候寫大法官總額過半數，民國81年審查的時候，請問一下，那時候秘書長是不是叫王甲乙？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:49.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.215000+08:00","text":"那時候的黃興邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.275000+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.335000+08:00","text":"那時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:55:51.555000+08:00","text":"那時候都是國民黨的啦！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:55:57.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:09.437000+08:00","text":"這裡從總額過半變成現有總額過半，我們看下一頁怎麼來的，當時的討論是國民黨的委員黃興邦問王甲乙秘書長說這個總額怎麼算的？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:09.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:16.299000+08:00","text":"他說是以現有人數計算，和以前的立法院一樣，那時候總額是17位，假如總統通過13名，17位就會發生問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:19.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:25.367000+08:00","text":"所以黃興邦就說，會不會因為總額兩個字有歧異，到底是什麼總額產生困難？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:25.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:31.255000+08:00","text":"王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思，所以國民黨委員說那能不能修改明確一下比較好？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:31.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:34.899000+08:00","text":"他說如果你修改成現有人數，我也不反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:35.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:36.981000+08:00","text":"所以最後結果是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:36.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:56:59.212000+08:00","text":"最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候，那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員，民進黨只有1位陳委員，主席經過協商之後，把大法官總額加上「現有」兩個字，沒有異議，沒有哪黨哪派去打他、去影響他，所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額，你了解、同意嘛？同意。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:56:59.212000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:00.212000+08:00","text":"同意對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:00.212000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:01.212000+08:00","text":"就現有總額，所以我們來看一下，我們憲法有沒有除了大法官之外，對於總額的討論？","quality":0.088},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:00.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:34.404000+08:00","text":"有的，就是對於立法委員，我修過憲，憲法本文當中有講到立法委員額數的只有3個條文，第五十七條覆議的時候要出席委員三分之一以上提議；立法委員在臨時會的時候第六十九條跟修憲的時候第一百七十四條，都是寫立法委員，前條寫出席立法委員的幾分之幾，後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:34.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:36.526000+08:00","text":"你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:38.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:40.968000+08:00","text":"出席立法委員很清楚，那立法委員是以多少額數來算？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:40.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:57:44.652000+08:00","text":"實際報到人數……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:57:44.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:58:21.035000+08:00","text":"那是後來，憲法增修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義，就寫全體立法委員，那時候全體立法委員在增修條文裡面有幾個權力，罷免總統、對法律案覆議、對行政院提出不信任案、變更領土、彈劾，都是以全體立法委員；然後修憲的時候還是寫立法委員；到了立法委員職權行使法，就把全體立法委員分別在第二章之一、第四章到第七章之一，一共五個章節，國情報告、人事同意權、覆議、不信任、彈劾跟罷免，這6個權力在行使的時候都必須以全體立法委員為總額，你同意嘛！","quality":0.813},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:58:21.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:58:21.115000+08:00","text":"這是事實嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:58:22.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:58:35.964000+08:00","text":"但是我們立法委員職權行使法為了定義什麼叫全體立法委員，在88年國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條，總額三分之一以上始得開會，而總額是什麼規定呢？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:58:36.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:58:48.953000+08:00","text":"以每會期的實際報到人數扣掉辭職、去職跟亡故，很清楚，立法院自己在對自己的全體立法委員的解釋、總額怎麼定，它自己的職權行使法寫得清清楚楚、明明白白，你也認同嘛！","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:58:50.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:58:53.675000+08:00","text":"不只認同，你們後來的規則都放進去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:58:57.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:01.502000+08:00","text":"國民黨立法委員現在要修什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:01.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:02.963000+08:00","text":"立法委員總額就不修？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:03.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:05.285000+08:00","text":"你們第四條是修什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:05.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:12.091000+08:00","text":"修司法院大法官是現有總額，你們的現有總額是指大法官的人數。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:13.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:17.155000+08:00","text":"請問一下，目前憲法訴訟法當中，有沒有提到立法委員的條文？第……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:17.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:27.360000+08:00","text":"第三十九條。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:27.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:30.661000+08:00","text":"我提醒你，第三十九條，立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對？","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:30.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:46.005000+08:00","text":"但是有額數的限制，所以我們看一下，當時你們的法庭審理規則第五十六條全盤照抄，就是把立法院職權行使法裡面的規定，是以立法委員現有總額扣掉辭職、去職跟死亡，而且以每會期的實際報到人數。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:47.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:49.570000+08:00","text":"那憲法增修條文現在立法院的總額是多少？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:50.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T11:59:51.172000+08:00","text":"是不是113人？應該……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T11:59:52.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:01.121000+08:00","text":"結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候，沒有用113人來算，是用現有的來算喔！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:01.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:08.088000+08:00","text":"但是大法官釋憲要決定人民權益的時候，卻要用憲法的規定來算，雙標啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:10.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:16.397000+08:00","text":"給大家看一下，司法院大法官會議審理法第五條過去是怎樣？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:16.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:21.380000+08:00","text":"立法委員現有總額三分之一就可以提出申請，是不是這樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:21.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:22.120000+08:00","text":"這是過去的規定嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:23.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:23.461000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:24.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:25.262000+08:00","text":"而且你們的施行細則還寫什麼？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:25.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:25.422000+08:00","text":"每會期實際報到人數為準。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:29.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:43.738000+08:00","text":"在第9屆立法院的時候，國民黨的人數未達三分之一，所以當時國民黨提出釋憲，還要找無黨籍的高金素梅委員，才能提出釋憲申請，你有印象嗎？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:43.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:49.304000+08:00","text":"有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高金委員湊足了三分之一請求釋憲，有沒有？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:49.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:00:51.989000+08:00","text":"那時候我沒有機會參與。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:00:51.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:03.264000+08:00","text":"沒有機會參與，好，我告訴你，我有參與到，所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出釋憲案，那時候本席就提出了什麼？","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:03.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:06.608000+08:00","text":"提出把現有總額從三分之一降到了四分之一。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:07.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:22.890000+08:00","text":"其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私，就要看不因當時它是多數黨還是少數黨來決定，要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定，能夠彰顯出主權在民、民主政治的精神而定。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:26.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:29.075000+08:00","text":"所以我們看一下，當時本席就提出四分之一，我們憲法法庭審理規則第四十九條還是說什麼？","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:30.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:33.498000+08:00","text":"說現有總額，所以完全是依照立法院職權行使法，司法院自己的規則完全follow立法院職權行使什麼規定，它就跟著規定，你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院？","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:52.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:53.704000+08:00","text":"司法院有沒有尊重立法院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:54.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:01:57.708000+08:00","text":"應該是有，因為現有總額的解釋一向如此。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:01:57.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:07.719000+08:00","text":"所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定，你們的規則就照抄，這就是憲法機關相互尊重、尊重各自獨立權限精神的體現。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:09.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:14.534000+08:00","text":"所以我們來看一下，施行日期為什麼要緩衝？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:14.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:24.307000+08:00","text":"在107年大法官案件審議法，第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的聲請，所以必須要公布三年後施行，是不是這樣的意思？是。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:24.307000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:28.306000+08:00","text":"施行日期是不是影響人民？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:28.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:32.305000+08:00","text":"所以當年就是三年後，後來112年修改，修改之後是怎樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:32.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:36.304000+08:00","text":"司法院以命令定之。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:36.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:40.303000+08:00","text":"為什麼那時候修改後不是三年，再次修改把門檻從三分之一降成四分之一，要司法院來命令定之？","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:40.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:44.302000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:44.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:02:56.110000+08:00","text":"因為憲法訴訟法通過之後，還有相關的這些審理細則、這些子法的規定要去訂，那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的，所以這個實施的日期才由司法院定之。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:02:56.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:03:02.354000+08:00","text":"好，所以我們剛才看翁委員的提案要求公布後就實施，法律的施行始點有哪些？","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:03:06.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:03:22.282000+08:00","text":"道交條例，因為執行複雜，須由行政機關指定；各部會組織法，要配合組改的時程；人民團體法，配合民法大修，施行日期貼合民法，所有法律的施行日期都有個別不同的考量，沒有全部都是公告之日實施的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:03:27.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:03:41.985000+08:00","text":"我們加速，主席也站起來了，所以目前所提的憲法訴訟法第九十五條的修正審查案，「自公布日實施」其實會造成很多對人民的衝擊，不顧及民眾準備充足時間來聲請的權益，你覺得有沒有這個顧慮？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T12:03:43.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:03:51.106000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為現在已經公告受理的，我們也擔心立刻實施的時候，這已經公告受理的案件也沒辦法進入……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:03:52.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:03:52.547000+08:00","text":"好，對不起主席。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:03:52.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:13.332000+08:00","text":"最後就是關於迴避的問題，雖然迴避剛剛我們羅智強委員也提到了，他舉的那個例子，我仔細去講，如果迴避的話，15個人中有6個人因為曾在臺大任教，只剩9人參與懲辦，所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定，所以你們提出的第三十條跟第四十三條，目前這兩條是逕付二讀嘛，主席是不是這樣子？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:13.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:14.132000+08:00","text":"逕付二讀嘛！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:14.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:22.273000+08:00","text":"好，如果你把總額改成法定總額，就不會發生因迴避人數過多而由少數大法官決定嗎？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:22.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:32.675000+08:00","text":"我們來看最後一頁，你把現有總額改成法定總額，不只雙標，你沒有看看我們憲法訴訟法裡面的第四十九條，立法委員提釋憲聲請要四分之一，四分之一是什麼？","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:32.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:33.675000+08:00","text":"現有人數耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:32.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:39.940000+08:00","text":"你大法官就要有法定總額，遇到自己立法委員要提出釋憲聲請，四分之一即以現有人數來算，而且憲法訴訟法第十一條要聲請迴避是要其他大法官過半數啊！","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:54.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:55.776000+08:00","text":"其他大法官是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:56.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:04:57.858000+08:00","text":"請問你知道這額數嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:04:57.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:00.941000+08:00","text":"如果修法之後，其他大法官是多少額數？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:00.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:04.544000+08:00","text":"因為知道其他有多少人，我才能確定過半數嘛！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:04.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:23.918000+08:00","text":"如果要用法定額數的話，第十二條「依本法迴避之大法官，不計入現有總額之人數」，也就是現有總額不計入，由其他現有憲法法庭大法官過半數來同意就可以了，但是如果改成法定總額呢，憲法訴訟法第十二條也在翁委員第四條的修正範圍內……","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:23.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:24.918000+08:00","text":"鍾召委，時間到了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:23.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:29.821000+08:00","text":"好，法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:30.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:31.522000+08:00","text":"既然叫法定，什麼法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:32.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:32.442000+08:00","text":"是憲法。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:33.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:34.143000+08:00","text":"憲法增修條文幾席？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:35.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:40.066000+08:00","text":"15席，15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎？不行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:40.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:41.066000+08:00","text":"所以我這裡做個結論，這樣一個倉促的修法，擺明了只是對大法官最近所做國會職權的結果可能不樂觀，而表達的一種杯葛跟反應，實質上完全沒有一個法條的法理，不完備。","quality":0.127},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:41.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:42.066000+08:00","text":"鍾召委，時間到了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:42.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:43.066000+08:00","text":"現有員額，你違背了所有的憲法本文、增修條文、各種法律它的精神，你硬是要用法定員額，全中華民國的法律就是這一個是用法定員額，通過之後還漏掉了迴避的規定，現有總額改成法定總額，你怎麼迴避？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:43.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:44.066000+08:00","text":"這一點我們以後再來討論，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:44.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:45.066000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:43.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:44.013000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T12:05:44.513000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T12:05:48.227286+08:00","text":"我們下一位請林思銘委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時51分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。修法過程我們有問題想請教一下司法院的黃副秘書長。主席，想請教黃副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃副秘你好。我的標題是「癱瘓憲法法庭人民救濟無門，總額認定雙標施行日不顧民」，前面這一段你剛剛大概也講了。請問一下聲請釋憲案，機關、立法委員、法院跟人民這四者都可以提出，以目前為止你所知道的，誰的比例最高？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前聲請這些釋憲，98%以上都是人民聲請，絕大部分涉及到人民的基本權利。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。其實外界可能有個誤解，以為這次藍白合作要針對司法院、針對憲法訴訟法來下手，是因為對大法官不滿，對憲法法庭凍結他們上個會期的國會擴權案有所不滿，以為憲法法庭好像專門在跟立法院國會的多數作對，其實不然。我們看到這個統計，憲法法庭受理的案子絕大部分是人民，不管是舊制時期還是新制時期，94%到98%都是以人民申請最高。所以我看到昨天的報紙說，目前藍委提案提高釋憲判決的門檻，遇到大法官的提名任命懸而未決，致人數不足額，低於10人的時候就無法評議、無法裁判，不能執行釋憲職責的嚴重結果，就是傷到人民尋求權利救濟，是不是這樣？我請教一下，憲法法庭既然要保障人民的權利，那有沒有保障我們基層公務員，你認為有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然也包含基層公務員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看一下113年憲判第6號保障人民應考警消的權利，去年憲判第15號保障公務員請領慰問金，所以如果癱瘓憲法法庭，不只會阻礙人民救濟，也侵害了公務員的權益，你是不是認同？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該是這個樣子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們來看，其實憲法訴訟法不是由來已久，它是107年才通過的，我們看過去大法官解釋憲法程序的沿革，民國37年是司法院大法官會議規則，47年開始有了大法官會議法，到了82年大法官審理案件法，這當中到82年之前，這些法律都是由國民黨擔任總統、國民黨握有國會絕對多數的時候通過的，所以你認為這樣的程序，有變成是一黨一派之私嗎？還是那時候的國會所通過的這些法案，能夠兼顧或尊重到司法院大法官釋憲的精神跟他的權責？你覺得它是一黨一派決定的，還是有體現尊重大法官獨立釋憲的權責？是前者還是後者？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想擔任大法官的，他不應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說這些法條都是國民黨的總統、國民黨控制的國會通過的，你覺得它是一黨一派嗎？還是覺得至少尊重了司法院獨立做憲法解釋的精神？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官擔任以後，不會去考慮黨派啦！應該是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你還是誤會我的意思了，這些法條難道是有一黨一派的決定，讓大法官要聽國民黨的嗎？不會吧！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會，好，很好。我們來看一下馬英九時期，到了104年的時候，全部的大法官都是他任命的；到了107年蔡英文前總統的時候，才有憲法訴訟法的制定。我們來看一下，這個問題到底是現有總額、法定總額，由來已久，在我們當初從大法官會議法要過渡到大法官審理案件法的時候，第十三條那時候寫大法官總額過半數，民國81年審查的時候，請問一下，那時候秘書長是不是叫王甲乙？那時候的黃興邦立法委員是不是國民黨籍的？不知道？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那時候……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候都是國民黨的啦！這裡從總額過半變成現有總額過半，我們看下一頁怎麼來的，當時的討論是國民黨的委員黃興邦問王甲乙秘書長說這個總額怎麼算的？他說是以現有人數計算，和以前的立法院一樣，那時候總額是17位，假如總統通過13名，17位就會發生問題。所以黃興邦就說，會不會因為總額兩個字有歧異，到底是什麼總額產生困難？王秘書長說現在的解釋就是現有的意思，所以國民黨委員說那能不能修改明確一下比較好？他說如果你修改成現有人數，我也不反對。","所以最後結果是什麼？最後結果從大法官會議法變成大法官審理案件法的時候，那時候的國民黨是這幾位委員，民進黨只有1位陳委員，主席經過協商之後，把大法官總額加上「現有」兩個字，沒有異議，沒有哪黨哪派去打他、去影響他，所以82年通過的大審法就是把總額改成現有總額，你了解、同意嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同意對不對？就現有總額，所以我們來看一下，我們憲法有沒有除了大法官之外，對於總額的討論？有的，就是對於立法委員，我修過憲，憲法本文當中有講到立法委員額數的只有3個條文，第五十七條覆議的時候要出席委員三分之一以上提議；立法委員在臨時會的時候第六十九條跟修憲的時候第一百七十四條，都是寫立法委員，前條寫出席立法委員的幾分之幾，後條寫立法委員的幾分之幾。你覺得那時候的立法委員是以多少額數來算？出席立法委員很清楚，那立法委員是以多少額數來算？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：實際報到人數……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是後來，憲法增修條文的時候為了避免這個歧義，就寫全體立法委員，那時候全體立法委員在增修條文裡面有幾個權力，罷免總統、對法律案覆議、對行政院提出不信任案、變更領土、彈劾，都是以全體立法委員；然後修憲的時候還是寫立法委員；到了立法委員職權行使法，就把全體立法委員分別在第二章之一、第四章到第七章之一，一共五個章節，國情報告、人事同意權、覆議、不信任、彈劾跟罷免，這6個權力在行使的時候都必須以全體立法委員為總額，你同意嘛！這是事實嘛！但是我們立法委員職權行使法為了定義什麼叫全體立法委員，在88年國民黨全面執政的時候通過了第四條，總額三分之一以上始得開會，而總額是什麼規定呢？以每會期的實際報到人數扣掉辭職、去職跟亡故，很清楚，立法院自己在對自己的全體立法委員的解釋、總額怎麼定，它自己的職權行使法寫得清清楚楚、明明白白，你也認同嘛！不只認同，你們後來的規則都放進去。","國民黨立法委員現在要修什麼？立法委員總額就不修？你們第四條是修什麼？修司法院大法官是現有總額，你們的現有總額是指大法官的人數。請問一下，目前憲法訴訟法當中，有沒有提到立法委員的條文？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三十九條。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我提醒你，第三十九條，立法委員可以提出釋憲對不對？但是有額數的限制，所以我們看一下，當時你們的法庭審理規則第五十六條全盤照抄，就是把立法院職權行使法裡面的規定，是以立法委員現有總額扣掉辭職、去職跟死亡，而且以每會期的實際報到人數。那憲法增修條文現在立法院的總額是多少？是不是113人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果立法委員自己要在憲法訴訟法行使職權的時候，沒有用113人來算，是用現有的來算喔！但是大法官釋憲要決定人民權益的時候，卻要用憲法的規定來算，雙標啦！給大家看一下，司法院大法官會議審理法第五條過去是怎樣？立法委員現有總額三分之一就可以提出申請，是不是這樣？這是過去的規定嘛！是不是？而且你們的施行細則還寫什麼？每會期實際報到人數為準。在第9屆立法院的時候，國民黨的人數未達三分之一，所以當時國民黨提出釋憲，還要找無黨籍的高金素梅委員，才能提出釋憲申請，你有印象嗎？有沒有受理過國民黨的委員加上高金委員湊足了三分之一請求釋憲，有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那時候我沒有機會參與。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有機會參與，好，我告訴你，我有參與到，所以為了考慮到少數黨的立法委員也能夠提出釋憲案，那時候本席就提出了什麼？提出把現有總額從三分之一降到了四分之一。其實我們說一個法條是不是反映一黨一派之私，就要看不因當時它是多數黨還是少數黨來決定，要依著我們怎麼樣的法條制定，能夠彰顯出主權在民、民主政治的精神而定。","所以我們看一下，當時本席就提出四分之一，我們憲法法庭審理規則第四十九條還是說什麼？說現有總額，所以完全是依照立法院職權行使法，司法院自己的規則完全follow立法院職權行使什麼規定，它就跟著規定，你認為這樣有沒有尊重立法院？司法院有沒有尊重立法院？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該是有，因為現有總額的解釋一向如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以司法院也是尊重立法院自己的決定，你們的規則就照抄，這就是憲法機關相互尊重、尊重各自獨立權限精神的體現。","所以我們來看一下，施行日期為什麼要緩衝？在107年大法官案件審議法，第九十五條說明因為攸關各機關人民的聲請，所以必須要公布三年後施行，是不是這樣的意思？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：施行日期是不是影響人民？所以當年就是三年後，後來112年修改，修改之後是怎樣？司法院以命令定之。為什麼那時候修改後不是三年，再次修改把門檻從三分之一降成四分之一，要司法院來命令定之？請說明。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為憲法訴訟法通過之後，還有相關的這些審理細則、這些子法的規定要去訂，那些的時程可能是要司法院掌握的，所以這個實施的日期才由司法院定之。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們剛才看翁委員的提案要求公布後就實施，法律的施行始點有哪些？道交條例，因為執行複雜，須由行政機關指定；各部會組織法，要配合組改的時程；人民團體法，配合民法大修，施行日期貼合民法，所有法律的施行日期都有個別不同的考量，沒有全部都是公告之日實施的。我們加速，主席也站起來了，所以目前所提的憲法訴訟法第九十五條的修正審查案，「自公布日實施」其實會造成很多對人民的衝擊，不顧及民眾準備充足時間來聲請的權益，你覺得有沒有這個顧慮？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為現在已經公告受理的，我們也擔心立刻實施的時候，這已經公告受理的案件也沒辦法進入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，對不起主席。最後就是關於迴避的問題，雖然迴避剛剛我們羅智強委員也提到了，他舉的那個例子，我仔細去講，如果迴避的話，15個人中有6個人因為曾在臺大任教，只剩9人參與懲辦，所以國民黨的修法意旨說不可以出現少數來決定，所以你們提出的第三十條跟第四十三條，目前這兩條是逕付二讀嘛，主席是不是這樣子？逕付二讀嘛！好，如果你把總額改成法定總額，就不會發生因迴避人數過多而由少數大法官決定嗎？我們來看最後一頁，你把現有總額改成法定總額，不只雙標，你沒有看看我們憲法訴訟法裡面的第四十九條，立法委員提釋憲聲請要四分之一，四分之一是什麼？現有人數耶！你大法官就要有法定總額，遇到自己立法委員要提出釋憲聲請，四分之一即以現有人數來算，而且憲法訴訟法第十一條要聲請迴避是要其他大法官過半數啊！其他大法官是多少？請問你知道這額數嗎？如果修法之後，其他大法官是多少額數？因為知道其他有多少人，我才能確定過半數嘛！如果要用法定額數的話，第十二條「依本法迴避之大法官，不計入現有總額之人數」，也就是現有總額不計入，由其他現有憲法法庭大法官過半數來同意就可以了，但是如果改成法定總額呢，憲法訴訟法第十二條也在翁委員第四條的修正範圍內……"],["主席：鍾召委，時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，法定總額是沒有辦法用迴避的方式來扣除的啦！既然叫法定，什麼法？是憲法。憲法增修條文幾席？15席，15席的法定總額能夠扣掉迴避的大法官嗎？不行。所以我這裡做個結論，這樣一個倉促的修法，擺明了只是對大法官最近所做國會職權的結果可能不樂觀，而表達的一種杯葛跟反應，實質上完全沒有一個法條的法理，不完備。"],["主席：鍾召委，時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現有員額，你違背了所有的憲法本文、增修條文、各種法律它的精神，你硬是要用法定員額，全中華民國的法律就是這一個是用法定員額，通過之後還漏掉了迴避的規定，現有總額改成法定總額，你怎麼迴避？這一點我們以後再來討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們下一位請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","傅崐萁","蔡易餘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等\n16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}