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你會後查證給我我今天跟秘書長講喔我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防治條例為了要強化對被害人的保護提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛但我收到很多投訴啊"},{"start":156.62,"end":183.566,"text":"說地方法院的法官根本不管什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管我用其中一個案子來當作例子起訴的時候詐欺犯罪的被害人結果收到法院什麼要他補繳裁判費來請教一下副秘書長命他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告委員報告不能抗告但是先停一下病受將來的那個本案不是啦"},{"start":184.571,"end":191.679,"text":"你講得太快了啦沒有繳裁判費叫你補繳又不能夠抗告接下來會發生什麼事就裁定駁回了嘛法院自行違法接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外對這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛"},{"start":207.602,"end":208.022,"text":"謝謝委員這不是開玩笑的事情喔"},{"start":231.499,"end":236.922,"text":"不要謝謝我啦這是你們該做的事情啦第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚啊那奇怪了問我們立委說你們不是三讀通過了啊怎麼三讀通過了以後"},{"start":248.502,"end":267.68,"text":"還補繳裁判費裁定還不能抗告接下來馬上要面對什麼接下來馬上要面對訴不合法依照民事訴訟法249條第一項第六款的規定裁定駁回我還要自己跟高院抗告有這麼離譜的事情喔把我們上個會議請立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊"},{"start":274.53,"end":293.057,"text":"來我們沿著我們上次討論的話上次我請教你我們一一三年宪判制第八號出來了以後其實分兩段第一段殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型這個是在回應什麼這是在回應ICCP第六條第二項的規定"},{"start":296.243,"end":312.368,"text":"我們的憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡喔不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛但他還進一步的限縮死刑要限於什麼個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重因為我上次質詢完了以後啊"},{"start":316.28,"end":343.674,"text":"有立委上來講說現在法庭只是反映ICCPI第六條第二項我聽完了以後我頓時非常的迷惘他到底有沒有去看那個憲判制的判決啊明明判決就寫兩段第一個殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型符合ICCPI這沒有問題嘛第二個我上次請教你的是個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋"},{"start":345.186,"end":356.932,"text":"因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛然後他是用歷史的方式用歷史的方式我上次請教你的問題是說那犯罪動機跟目的"},{"start":358.393,"end":365.401,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":375.934,"end":390.429,"text":"副秘書長的事這個到底是要折翼還是變存?你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案三個東西全部綜合起來考慮我說你再回去看一下判決我下次會再問你你看完判決以後今天的答案是什麼?"},{"start":391.707,"end":393.267,"text":"我拿刀我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女"},{"start":422.216,"end":422.376,"text":"委員高見"},{"start":446.734,"end":471.369,"text":"是不是那個不是我高見啊我綜合你的講法就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛從你的回答大家都聽得出來了嘛好來我們繼續啊再往下看上次為而請教你說各級法院都要一致決那如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟嘛上次你回答答案是對嘛"},{"start":473.499,"end":476.341,"text":"現在我在講的是最高法院最高法院的法官我們五票都同意這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重"},{"start":499.728,"end":511.816,"text":"但是被告認為說這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準啊他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟他請求個案裁判的憲法審查可不可以打掉但是是也要經得起檢驗嘛"},{"start":523.775,"end":542.781,"text":"當然啊你到底在說什麼啊我們大法官不是說生命很重要嗎所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊要程序保障最嚴密啊全部都是我們大法官講的啊那進入了有關於憲法訴訟個案的救濟的時候憲法法庭要不要一致決跟委員報告齁如果他說維持這個江南還有解釋的空間如果他要維持的話"},{"start":553.26,"end":556.181,"text":"所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟憲法法庭的判決沒有講的嘛未來還是有充滿的一定的不確定性嘛"},{"start":578.376,"end":597.475,"text":"最高法院他發展那個不是最高法院的發展這憲法法庭的事情怎麼會看最高法院的發展抱歉是口誤抱歉好來來看一下齁如果接下來啊憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決最高法院的法官五個喔都認為"},{"start":599.663,"end":601.024,"text":"目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形"},{"start":619.963,"end":637.45,"text":"你不用推斷現在的情形啊到11月1號以後只會剩下八名大法官啊希望能夠如期審查對啦但希望能夠如期審查你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊到目前為止啊沒有要求排入議審審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團啊"},{"start":641.01,"end":663.332,"text":"十一月一號以後我跟你保證啊你以現在的時間上面來講我跟副秘書長交換一個心得啦我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人所以我跟你講話也很客氣我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情我只跟你講法律的事情所以我希望你回答的時候就像法律人一樣回答不要學"},{"start":665.171,"end":681.258,"text":"不要搞一些油槍滑掉的東西啦這樣子不好啦八月一號以後剩下存的八個大法官在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次的憲判制的判決當中申請自刑迴避"},{"start":684.661,"end":690.824,"text":"所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候申請個案要救濟的時候他們兩個迴避剩下幾個?剩下六個嗎?那如果按照現在的表決全數有四個大法官認為這不是最嚴重有兩個大法官認為這個是最嚴重"},{"start":712.308,"end":732.842,"text":"結果變成什麼?結果變成的是那本來最高法院的五個大法官所做的死刑宣告維持的死刑宣告就違憲喔是吧?不是啦就最高法院的五個法官所維持的死刑判決是不是就會被宣告違憲了?好我為什麼要秀這個給你看六個大法官"},{"start":742.082,"end":768.761,"text":"做這麼重要的決定四比二的票數四比二的票數做這麼重要的決定直接推翻了所有下集審法院包括最高法院的一致決在制度上面是不是合一在制度上面是不是合一這個問題我不會逼你回答作為一個法律人我們大家共同思考在制度上面這個是不是合一"},{"start":769.793,"end":782.533,"text":"我接下來要請教你的是因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題我跟副秘書長報告我對於司法院所提出來的書面報告我看了覺得很難過因為太單薄了啦"},{"start":783.479,"end":808.414,"text":"因為太單薄了啦我為什麼說太單薄了這麼嚴肅的制度課題我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題的時候完全沒有任何比較法的原因來我請教一下副秘書長美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官聯邦最高法院要做判決的時候有沒有最低法定人數的要求"},{"start":810.646,"end":822.858,"text":"他們是過半數決吧 半數決不是啦 我跟你講齁 我們觀念要搞清楚我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum不是第二個層次的表決權數我們現在在講的是quorum"},{"start":826.263,"end":849.424,"text":"出席人數九位最高法院聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判跟委員報告我現在手上沒有明確資料來我秀給你看我我一定知道你沒有準備好明確資料所以我馬上秀給你看美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官最少要多少人他的科人是多少六個人"},{"start":851.087,"end":856.61,"text":"美國可能距離我們太遙遠了我問一點近的日本日本最高裁判所的幾位大法官15位嘛15位大法庭因為日本的最高裁判所的小法庭大法庭嘛是不是違憲要大法庭來做決定嘛大法庭要做決定最少要有多少人出席要寫的是要9人是9個人嘛好來"},{"start":880.351,"end":899.447,"text":"聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所他們基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院跟我們國家的制度不太一樣因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲的權利最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣那我們來看一下在普通法院系統以外有另外在創設憲法法院系統的"},{"start":900.228,"end":915.935,"text":"南非憲法法院南非憲法法院非常有名幾年前南非憲法法院的大法官我們司法院都有邀請他來解釋南非憲法法院實際上面的運作南非憲法法院有多少大法官11位我寫的你後面都可以去檢證如果我有寫錯再麻煩副秘書長給我指教11位憲法法院的大法官"},{"start":930.202,"end":941.497,"text":"最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決?是八位嘛好來我們再來看一下韓國憲法法院韓國憲法法院有幾位大法官?最少要有幾個人出席?"},{"start":951.645,"end":962.911,"text":"現在我都還沒有在講喔出席以後到底要三分之二多數決還是要二分之一的簡單多數決我都還沒有講到這個層次喔第一個層次不管是美國還是日本"},{"start":970.387,"end":994.577,"text":"普通法院有事件權的或者是南非憲法法院或者是韓國憲法法院在普通法院以外另外設憲法法院的不管是哪一個體系的都有最低人數的要求我請教一下副秘書長這一些國家的立法者在立這些法律的時候竟然有最低人數的要求啊"},{"start":996.087,"end":1017.273,"text":"他們是不是要毀憲亂政啊?是不是要癱壞憲法法院啊?他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎?來請教副秘書長各位委員報告那當然各個國家有各個國家的這個背景應該不是這些國家應該不是有這種情形嘛這個國家不是這種情形嘛所以我們法律員回到理性來思考問題啊"},{"start":1018.635,"end":1046.133,"text":"一個執掌市縣最高法院的機關需不需要有最低人數的要求要不要有call人這是一個制度性的問題我再強調一次這是一個制度性的問題我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法的時候根本沒有處理這個問題嘛我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了"},{"start":1046.894,"end":1069.473,"text":"沒有人在處理這個問題啊當初司改國是會議的時候啊寫的是全體大法官寫的是全體大法官那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼是15個裡面的三分之二但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候在實際運作上就會有問題但我們怎麼樣橫平"},{"start":1075.7,"end":1094.874,"text":"所謂橫評是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作第二個在制度上面在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求這些國家的立法者我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的他絕對不是為了毀憲亂政他也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟他們才會去做這樣子的規定嘛"},{"start":1103.484,"end":1124.47,"text":"所以我建議副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢回答相關的問題的時候要有司法院的樣子要有司法院的高度不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言在那邊隨之起舞這樣讓大家看了會很失望跟副秘書長共勉好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時25分）主席，不好意思，我先會議詢問一下，我是真的會議詢問，跟其他會議詢問夾雜實質內容性質的會議詢問完全不一樣，我真的要問的事情是……"],["沈委員伯洋：沒有會議詢問。"],["吳委員思瑤：不是說沒有會議詢問嗎？"],["主席：我們已經停止會議詢問了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。請副秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長，我看你今天的頭銜是副秘書長，上次來是代理秘書長，怎麼上次來是代理秘書長，這次變副秘書長？我們立法院是什麼，你們司法院的職稱是換來換去喔？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為後來也有給委員報告，因為我們秘書長暫時缺位，之前事實上他的事務委由我來代處理，之前可能是參考其他的院，就這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：我切入啦，我就直接講，我上次問你，司法院處務規程有代理秘書長的規定嗎？有還是沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，沒有，後來我們瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有嘛！知錯能改……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院要守法，這很重要，明明就沒有代理制度，司法院耶，司法院自己都不守法，沒有法源基礎搞代理秘書長，今天知道自己錯了，改回副秘書長喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，因為實際上就是代理處理，我們也沒有用司法院秘書長的職權，也沒有，所以實際上就只有……"],["黃委員國昌：你就看嘛，你上次送來的不就是代理秘書長，不要再強辯了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：錯了就錯了嘛，錯了認錯就好了啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們問一下，詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條很重要，為什麼很重要？我們要加強對被害人的保護，所以提起民事訴訟的時候，暫免繳納訴訟費用嘛，這一個規定，司法院有沒有通報各級地方法院的所有民事法院注意？有通報還是沒通報？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，發函應該是有發函，但是這個要查證一下，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你會後查證給我。我今天跟副秘書長講，我們上個會期三讀通過詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，為了要強化對被害人的保護，提起民事訴訟暫免繳納訴訟費用，但我收到很多投訴，說地方法院的法官根本不管，什麼叫地方法院的法官根本不管，我用其中一個案子來當作例子，起訴的時候，詐欺犯罪的被害人收到法院要他補繳裁判費。請教一下副秘書長，令他補繳裁判費的裁定可不可以抗告？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，不能抗告，但是並受將來的本案判決……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，你講得太快了啦，沒有繳裁判費，叫你補繳又不能夠抗告，接下來會發生什麼事？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有繳，會駁回。"],["黃委員國昌：就裁定駁回了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：法院自己違法，接下來的法律效果是把人民踢出法院之外，對於這個裁定駁回他可以抗告嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，當然上級審會去糾正，只是這個程序我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，這樣浪費勞力時間費用，算是對被害人的保護嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員提醒，我們回去一定切實的去……"],["黃委員國昌：拜託司法院，通告全國地方法院民事庭的法官注意。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，這是我們該做的。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是開玩笑的事情！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：不要謝謝我啦，這是你們該做的事情啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對啦，謝謝委員提點，我們總是要注意。"],["黃委員國昌：第一線有非常多的被害人欲哭無淚，奇怪了，問我們立委說不是三讀通過了，怎麼三讀通過了以後還補繳裁判費，裁定還不能抗告，接下來馬上面對什麼？接下來馬上面對訴不合法，依照民事訴訟法第二百四十九條第一項第六款的規定裁定駁回，我還要自己跟高院抗告，有這麼離譜的事情喔！把上個會期立法院通過的法律當耳邊風啊！這個才是真正在犧牲人民的訴訟權益啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝，謝謝委員，我們回去會切實……"],["黃委員國昌：然後我們沿著我們上次討論的話，上次我請教你，我們113年憲判字第8號出來了以後，其實分兩段啦，第一段，殺人是屬於最嚴重的犯罪類型，這個是在回應什麼？這是在回應ICCPR第六條第二項的規定嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但我們憲法法庭的判決不是只有限於這裡，不是只有最嚴重的犯罪類型喔，殺人罪當然是最嚴重的犯罪類型就不用講嘛，但他還進一步的限縮，死刑要限於個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重，因為我上次質詢完了以後，有立委上來講說，現在法庭只是反映ICCPR第六條第二項，我聽完了以後頓時非常的迷惘，他到底有沒有去看那個憲判字的判決啊，明明判決就寫兩段，第一個，殺人是最嚴重的犯罪類型，符合ICCPR，這沒有問題嘛。第二個，我上次請教你的是，個案犯罪情節屬於最嚴重，我問你這件事情要怎麼解釋，因為憲法法庭的判決沒有跟大家講這件事情到底要怎麼解釋嘛，然後他是用例示的方式，我上次請教你的問題是說，犯罪動機跟目的是否要預謀殺人、要恣意無差別殺人？犯罪手段是否要足以造成多人死亡或者是明顯不人道？犯罪結果是不是要殺害多個人，是不是殘忍殺害自我保護能力明顯不足的人？我上次請教副秘書長的是，這個到底是要擇一還是並存？你上次給我一個非常模糊的答案說三個東西全部綜合起來考慮，我說你再回去看一下判決，我下次會再問你，請問你看完判決了以後，今天的答案是什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我是認為，以我當法官的這些經驗，這一些的因素都是要去綜合考量，你說這個點數是一，要加在一起，所以我上一次的回應是說，以法官的這個習慣大概不是這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：好，譬如我舉一個最具體的例子，我拿刀殺害兩個無辜的婦女，預謀殺人，馬上是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重？按照你例示的，馬上要進來涵攝了嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，它是例示，例示的東西，在法案審判的過程中，還會斟酌其他情形，不會說例示就是唯一的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：對！所以有一定的抽象跟不確定性嘛！我這樣說應該沒有錯吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員高見。"],["黃委員國昌：那個不是我高見啦！我綜合你的講法，就是有一定的抽象跟不確定性，從你的回答大家都聽得出來。","我們繼續再往下看，上次我也有請教你，各級法院都要一致決，如果接下來是不是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這件事情產生爭議了，我還是可以尋求憲法法院的救濟，上次你回答的答案是對嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他可以向檢察總長提出聲請，檢察總長不一定接受，要看檢察總長……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！這是兩個部分，檢察總長是非常上訴，你怎麼會把非常上訴跟請求憲法法院就個案的司法裁判是不是有違憲混淆了！現在我在講的是最高法院的法官，我們五票都同意，這個是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，但是被告認為，這不是個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊！因為沒有符合上面你所講的那個標準，則他可不可以請求憲法訴訟的救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他可以請求個案裁判的憲法審查，但是也要經得起檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：當然啊！你到底在說什麼啊？大法官不是說生命很重要嗎？所以要個案犯罪情節最嚴重啊！要程序保障最嚴密啊！全部都是我們大法官講的啊！在進入了有關於憲法訴訟個案救濟的時候，憲法法庭要不要一致決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，將來這部分還有解釋的空間，如果他要維持的話，憲法法庭認為要維持這一個死刑，而他對個案憲法裁判不接受的話，目前憲判字是沒有講，可能我也沒有辦法現在說到底將來……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這件事情是我們憲法訴訟、憲法法庭的判決沒有講的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前沒有講。"],["黃委員國昌：未來還是有充滿了一定的不確定性。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：要看最高法院它的發展……"],["黃委員國昌：不是最高法院的發展，這是憲法法庭的事情，怎麼會看最高法院的發展！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：抱歉，是口誤！"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下，如果接下來憲法法庭要求下級審死刑都要一致決，最高法院的法官5個都認為，這是屬於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，他聲請憲法訴訟的個案救濟，如果憲法法庭不要求一致決的話，我們來看看接下來會發生什麼事情，請問，我們到11月1號以後剩幾個大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前我沒有辦法去推斷將來的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用推斷現在的情形，到11月1號以後，只會剩下8名大法官。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：希望能夠如期審查。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！希望能夠如期審查，所以你要趕快跟民進黨黨團講啊！到目前為止，沒有要求排入議程審查的就是我們的執政黨黨團，11月1號以後，我跟你保證，以現在的時間上面來講，我跟副秘書長交換一個心得，我敬重你是一個有風骨的法律人，所以我跟你講話也很客氣，我在國會殿堂不跟你講政治的事情，我只跟你講法律的事情，所以我希望你回答的時候，要像法律人一樣的回答，不要學一些或是不要搞一些油腔滑調的東西，這樣子不好！11月1號以後，剩下的8個大法官中，在憲法訴訟裡面有幾個在上一次憲判字的判決當中聲請自行迴避？兩個啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：尤伯祥跟蔡彩貞。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以接下來我在憲法訴訟的時候聲請個案要救濟的時候，他們兩個迴避後剩下6個，如果按照現在的表決權數，有4個大法官認為這不是最嚴重，有2個大法官認為這是最嚴重，結果變成什麼？結果變成的是本來最高法院5個大法官所做的死刑宣告，維持的死刑宣告就違憲，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：最高法院沒有大法官。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！就最高法院那5個法官所維持的死刑判決，是不是就會被宣告違憲了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個將來憲法法庭去判，我不能去置喙。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我為什麼要秀這個給你看，6個大法官做這麼重要的決定，用4比2的票數做這麼重要的決定，直接推翻了所有下級審法院，包括最高法院的一致決。這在制度上是不是合宜？這問題我不會逼你回答，但作為一個法律人，我們大家共同思考在制度上這是不是合宜？","我接下來要請教你的是，因為今天討論這麼嚴肅的問題，所以我要跟副秘書長報告，對於司法院所提出來的書面報告，我看了覺得很難過，因為太單薄了！因為太單薄了！我為什麼說太單薄了？這麼嚴肅的制度課題，我很少看到司法院在討論這麼嚴肅的制度課題時，完全沒有任何比較法的援引。我請教一下副秘書長，美國聯邦最高法院有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，九位大法官。"],["黃委員國昌：聯邦最高法院要做判決時，有沒有最低法定人數的要求？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他們是過半數決吧？"],["黃委員國昌：不是。我跟你講，觀念要搞清楚，我們現在在講的出席人數是第一個層次的quorum，不是第二個層次的表決權數，我們現在在講的是quorum，出席人數。九位聯邦最高法院的大法官需要多少人出席才可以進行裁判？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我現在手上沒有明確資料……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我秀給你看，我知道你一定沒有準備好明確資料，所以我馬上秀給你看。美國聯邦最高法院九位大法官，最少要有多少人，quorum是多少？六個人。美國可能距離我們太遙遠了，所以我問近一點的日本。日本最高裁判所有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：十五位。"],["黃委員國昌：十五位。因為日本的最高裁判所有小法庭、大法庭，所以是不是違憲要由大法庭來做決定。大法庭要做決定時，最少要有多少人出席？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：照委員這邊資料寫的，要九人。"],["黃委員國昌：九個人嘛。聯邦最高法院跟最高裁判所基本上沒有獨立設憲法法院，跟我們國家的制度不太一樣，因為他們的最高法院本來就有釋憲權力，最高裁判所跟聯邦最高法院都一樣。我們來看一下，在普通法院系統以外，另外再創設憲法法院系統的是南非憲法法院。南非憲法法院非常有名，司法院幾年前還邀請南非憲法法院的大法官來解釋南非憲法法院實際上的運作。南非憲法法院有多少大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員寫的是十一位。"],["黃委員國昌：我寫的你後面都可以去檢證，如果我有寫錯，再麻煩副秘書長給我指教。十一位憲法法院的大法官，最少要有幾個人參與才可以做判決？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員寫的是八位。"],["黃委員國昌：八位？好，我們再來看一下韓國憲法法院。韓國憲法法院有幾位大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：九位。"],["黃委員國昌：最少要有幾個人出席？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：審判部要七人以上。"],["黃委員國昌：要七人以上出席！我都還沒講到出席以後，到底要三分之二多數決，還是要二分之一的簡單多數決？我都還沒有講到這個層次。這只是quorum，第一個層次。在第一個層次裡，不管美國還是日本，普通法院有釋憲權的，或南非憲法法院，或韓國憲法法院，在普通法院外另設憲法法院的，不管是哪一個體系，都有最低人數要求！我請教副秘書長，這些國家的立法者在立這些法律時，竟然有最低人數的要求，他們是不是要毀憲亂政？是不是要癱瘓憲法法院？他們的立法意旨會是這樣嗎？請教副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，各個國家當然有各個國家的背景，這些國家應該不是這種情形。"],["黃委員國昌：這些國家不是這種情形，所以法律人回到理性來思考問題。一個職掌釋憲的最高法院機關，需不需要有最低人數的要求？要不要有quorum？這是一個制度性問題。我再強調一次，這是一個制度性的問題！我們當初在處理憲法訴訟法時，根本沒有處理這個問題！我為什麼知道沒有處理這個問題？那個時候相關的文獻我全部看完了，沒有人在處理這個問題啊！當初司改國是會議的時候，寫的是全體大法官，那個時候為什麼會要求三分之二要參與討論，大家腦袋裡面在想的是什麼？是15個裡面的三分之二，但是到現在的法條變成這個樣子的時候，在實際運作上就會有問題。但我們怎麼樣衡平，所謂衡平是說讓憲法訴訟的制度可以好好的運作；第二個，在制度上面是不是需要有最低人數的要求？這些國家的立法者，我相信就像副秘書長剛剛所講的，絕對不是為了毀憲亂政，也絕對不是為了要癱瘓憲法訴訟，他們才會去做這樣子的規定，所以我建議啦！副秘書長代表司法院到國會來備詢，回答相關問題的時候，要有司法院的樣子、要有司法院的高度，不要隨著一些莫名其妙的發言，在那邊隨之起舞，這樣讓大家看了會很失望，跟副秘書長共勉，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息，下午1點半開會。","休息（12時44分）","繼續開會（13時33分）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。","謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員。","我們接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","傅崐萁","蔡易餘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等\n16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}