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這個我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反那相反不是不能對話 你像比如說大法官其實你說先牽扯到整個事件案件人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門各個機關所提的訴訟案件那是千差萬別啊 也就是說憲法法庭大法官你的意義到底功能到底要幹什麼"},{"start":205.845,"end":205.865,"text":"帶領秘書長"},{"start":217.591,"end":240.085,"text":"你也認為是如此吧?如果是如此的話,那我倒會覺得啊,你也可以建議啊人民的,申請釋憲的,那個反而標準要更低讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭除了他胡說八道嘛,他這個程序不完備,或者說不負任何理由的一看就知道,那不可能來受理的那行政部門的,釋憲的"},{"start":241.846,"end":262.703,"text":"那也許他認為說你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關那也許他的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高把它區分人民跟政府我不曉得通不通但是我直接的感受就是憲法法庭你本來就是要提供給民眾萬一他受委屈了怎麼辦"},{"start":264.059,"end":268.943,"text":"你像我們很多一審二審三審的案件一個終局判決做下來以後那你怎麼辦?"},{"start":268.943,"end":290.84,"text":"大家申請釋憲啊那理論上到三審定驗了以後這個案子已經結束了可是憲法法庭裡面他現在變成受到的民眾可以拿他憲法法庭的判決裡面來做申請再審這個就是提供人民的一個救濟的機會喔你來告訴我你都不好意思了立法院水準真的我再講一次立法院水準真的沒有很高啦"},{"start":293.71,"end":303.036,"text":"你們要大聲跟社會講 你們要大聲跟社會講 你說談法律見解 你說你司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗 你們就笑死人了不是嗎 那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭來宣告違憲為什麼社會上會給你們拍手 有原因啦 不是因為你們沒有 你們擁有民意基礎啦 不是"},{"start":320.458,"end":323.88,"text":"你們還是沒有民意基礎﹖可是你們做出來﹖我早上舉了例子啊﹖酒駕的你強制給人家抽血啊﹖大法官就跟你說你要限期修法﹖對不對﹖立法院可能跟你講我理你捏﹖我民選出來我就不理你捏﹖不理你就宣告無效就這麼簡單﹖徹底到人權的保障老百姓就會站在你這一邊﹖"},{"start":346.257,"end":362.262,"text":"不是嗎?應該涉及到一國婚姻的一國子女的監護權的這大法官很有名的一個見解啊你說任何一照要把子女帶出去大法官就跟你講不行也要尊重這一個小朋友他主觀的一個意願裁定就把你給確定判決給廢棄掉啦不是這樣子嗎?所以這個時候大法官你們有沒有民意基礎?沒有啊民眾拍手說大官老"},{"start":378.894,"end":390.121,"text":"什麼時候大法官憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎沒有啊以前老國代也好老立委也好終生啊做一輩子啊大法官會議做出一個判決定期麻將就該選掉了不是嗎甚至於啊國民黨最怕的是什麼國民黨最怕的是說到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方"},{"start":408.083,"end":433.208,"text":"大法官也可以來有你自己的一個看法以現在台灣的政治環境來看的話看你敢不敢而已啊連制憲都可以啦但是如果站在大法官的立場大法官在我看來已經是極度保守了一個極度保守的一個組成的有一些進步的想法那立法院期待說他一定要有一個民意的一個基礎笑死人了來 你的看法是怎麼樣大膽講出來"},{"start":435.823,"end":458.474,"text":"大法官在作成的時候當然不會是只以名譽為考量啦他最終還是要忠於憲法憲法上面在保障人權的意志是怎麼樣大法官的責任是要正確的闡述這個憲法上面的意志那這個斟酌的情形不會只以名譽去考量是所以我的意思就是說像比如這件照好像大家一直在談說台大那個案子啊"},{"start":459.431,"end":460.332,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":473.39,"end":473.83,"text":"美國就好啦"},{"start":501.24,"end":519.564,"text":"美國沒有憲法法庭,他們叫最高法院,對不對,他們幾個法官,他們幾個大法官?九個啊,對不對,你去看帝國,十五個、十六個,但是他分庭嘛,他強調的也不是民意基礎啊,而且你注意看美國人數多少人,人靠三億的。"},{"start":523.234,"end":532.219,"text":"一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":550.851,"end":564.199,"text":"你不要開玩笑,真的會過喔!所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊!要去告訴社會,說這個會產生怎麼樣的一個結果啊!我看你若沒了,我看你若沒了!你看以前,老國台你的計劃,擴權,自肥案,導致整個修憲,第五次那一次,不好!為什麼?為什麼修憲可以無效?大法官就跟你說無效!"},{"start":579.178,"end":600.72,"text":"你沒有人會跟你講說你沒有民意基礎啊?那不是這樣講?這台是在講什麼民意的一個基礎啊?所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦,比較擔心一點啦。說我們今天這樣的一個大家這樣的一個法案在做討論的時候啊,司法院本身的立場不夠明確。"},{"start":602.993,"end":621.505,"text":"雖然大法官、憲法法庭是維護自由、民主、憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的一個憲法的一個守護神這樣的一個職能你們不能把它給拋棄掉從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面那個正當性社會當然可以去挑戰"},{"start":622.566,"end":632.181,"text":"但是呢 這個是一個憲政的一個基礎 如果這一條憲 如果我們 你們自己本身吶 都覺得秤菜都沒關係 我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔 我很喜歡吶"},{"start":638.291,"end":661.116,"text":"德國聯邦憲法法庭的法官克里爾佛他講過的一句話我來送給你立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關他也是憲法的共同形成者我覺得這個很重要變成說現代國家的一個憲法行授的一個保證司法院不是立法院的敵人不會是立法院也不會是你們的敵人但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚"},{"start":668.524,"end":675.91,"text":"這真的我是覺得期許啦,10萬人來到這,比較大聲啦,你也不一定要跟人消滅啊,但你那個立場真的要,你立場要很堅硬啊,因為畢竟守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院啦,是各個憲政機關裡面,連立法院啦,我們都是共同守護憲法的一個夥伴啦,這個你們好不好,要自己要加油,要把社會真的是要去,立場要講得夠清楚,產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣,如果沒有在開玩笑,如果要說逼人的,我告訴你,這一步你不用來。"},{"start":698.268,"end":698.288,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:29+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:45:34.454750+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請司法院代理秘書長。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:34.454750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:45:39.909500+08:00","text":"黃副秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:39.909500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:45:45.364250+08:00","text":"憲法法庭書記廳廳長也請上來，好不好？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:45.364250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:45:50.819000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:50.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:45:58.463000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我剛才聽了翁委員跟你的對話，似乎大家的看法又稍微接近了一點。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:45:58.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:46:08.428000+08:00","text":"但是我還是有一點非常不認同的地方，憲法法庭、大法官會議，國民黨的朋友一直認為你們沒有民意基礎。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:46:10.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:46:41.218000+08:00","text":"很難想像，在我國的各級法院，任何一個判決裡面，會講到所謂民意的基礎，我反而認為大法官、憲法法庭，民意是很沸騰的，各級法院的法官反而要非常保持冷靜、我心如秤，怎麼會是外界的民意多沸騰，希望你怎麼樣那你就怎麼樣！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:46:41.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:46:54.263000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣子的話，所謂的獨立於黨派之外，要法官為獨立審判，規定這樣的一個條文就可能就失去其意義。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:46:55.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:47:08.131000+08:00","text":"其實翁委員的立法，我知道他的意思要幹什麼，他一直是希望，大法官、憲法法庭裡面能夠涵蓋更多元的意見和觀點。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:47:08.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:47:30.086000+08:00","text":"但是我看了你最近的答詢，我上一次也跟你們講，司法院是一個憲政機關，立法院跟你們其實是平起平坐，你們到這個地方，這一次從翁委員提出他的草案以後，我發現你們的立場踩得不夠硬，為什麼說不夠硬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:47:30.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:47:40.594000+08:00","text":"你們不是為自己而硬，而是為憲政機關，你們該有的態度，你們要讓民眾知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:47:41.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:47:54.365000+08:00","text":"譬如從翁委員上個會期提到憲法訴訟法的修正條文裡面，這個我相信很多人也會高度質疑，就是會不會變相去卡關到憲法法庭的違憲審查和其他重要的職能？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:47:54.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:20.004000+08:00","text":"由這整個人數裡面來看，假設憲法法庭組成以後，案件要進來了，第一個就是到底要不要受理，這會牽扯到要不要受理的話，本身就要去做評議；然後一個憲法的判決要做出來以後，你們再評決裡面的人到底還夠不夠；另外第三個就是你還是做一個暫時處分。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:20.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:21.305000+08:00","text":"總共涉及三個環節。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:21.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:36.474000+08:00","text":"我一直認為，譬如說，憲法法庭裡面反而是要把它降低，這點我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反，相反不是不能對話。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:38.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:48.904000+08:00","text":"其實牽扯到整個釋憲案件，人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門、各個機關所提的訴訟案件，那是千差萬別啊！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:49.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:53.508000+08:00","text":"也就是說，憲法法庭大法官的意義、功能到底要幹什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:53.508000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:54.845000+08:00","text":"就是要提供一個最後的、限制政府機關的權力，來讓老百姓得到更好的救濟，不是如此嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:48:54.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:48:54.865000+08:00","text":"代理秘書長？是的。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:06.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:07.331000+08:00","text":"你也認為是如此嘛！是。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:07.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:12.494000+08:00","text":"如果是如此的話，我倒會覺得你也可以建議他們啊！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:13.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:27.264000+08:00","text":"人民聲請釋憲的部分反而標準要更低，讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭，除非他胡說八道、程序不完備或者不附任何理由，一看就知道不可能受理的。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:28.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:39.113000+08:00","text":"對於行政部門提出釋憲的部分，也許他認為你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關，也許它的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:39.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:41.595000+08:00","text":"把它區分人民跟政府。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:42.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:51.703000+08:00","text":"我不曉得通不通，但是我直接的感受就是，憲法法庭本來就是要提供給民眾，萬一他受委屈了，怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:53.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:57.943000+08:00","text":"像我們很多一審、二審、三審的案件，一個終局判決做下來以後，那你怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:58.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:49:58.643000+08:00","text":"他要聲請釋憲啊！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:49:59.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:14.175000+08:00","text":"理論上到三審定讞了以後，這個案子已經結束了，可是現在變成民眾可以拿憲法法庭的判決來聲請再審，這個就是提供人民一個救濟的機會。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:14.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:19.820000+08:00","text":"你們來到這裡都變得不好意思，我再講一次，立法院水準真的沒有很高啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:22.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:24.191000+08:00","text":"你們要大聲跟社會講！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:24.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:25.191000+08:00","text":"你們只是比較不好意思這樣說而已。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:24.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:27.693000+08:00","text":"譬如說要談法律見解，你們司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗，不就笑死人了嗎？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:27.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:27.893000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:27.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:30.675000+08:00","text":"那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭宣告違憲，為什麼社會上會給你們拍手？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:30.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:31.075000+08:00","text":"有原因啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:31.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:32.016000+08:00","text":"不是因為你們擁有民意基礎啦！不是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:49.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:49.978000+08:00","text":"你們還是沒有民意基礎，可是你們做出來，大家會說：哇，大法官好棒！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:49.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.239000+08:00","text":"我早上舉過例子啊，酒駕的人被強制抽血，大法官就說：你要限期修法！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.339000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.659000+08:00","text":"立法院可能跟你講：我理你？！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.839000+08:00","text":"我是民選出來的，我就不理你！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:51.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:50:52.320000+08:00","text":"不理你就宣告無效，就這麼簡單！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:50:52.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:16.537000+08:00","text":"涉及人權的保障，老百姓就會站在你這一邊，不是嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:16.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:22.479000+08:00","text":"你看，涉及異國婚姻子女監護權的，這是大法官很有名的一個見解啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:22.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:29.161000+08:00","text":"你說任何一造要把子女帶出去，大法官就跟你講：不行，也要尊重這個小朋友的主觀意願。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:29.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:29.781000+08:00","text":"裁定就把確定判決給廢棄掉了啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:30.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:30.302000+08:00","text":"不是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:30.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:30.942000+08:00","text":"所以這個時候大法官有沒有民意基礎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:30.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:31.042000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:31.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:31.222000+08:00","text":"可是民眾拍手，說大法官好棒！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:47.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:52.057000+08:00","text":"什麼時候大法官、憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎，沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:53.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:56.639000+08:00","text":"以前老國代也好，老立委也好，終身啊，做一輩子啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:56.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:57.880000+08:00","text":"大法官會議做出一個判決，定期馬上就改選掉了，不是嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:57.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:58.500000+08:00","text":"甚至於國民黨最怕的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:51:58.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:51:59.101000+08:00","text":"國民黨最怕的是，到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:17.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:20.744000+08:00","text":"大法官也可以有你們自己的看法啊！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:21.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:24.824000+08:00","text":"以現在臺灣的政治環境來看的話，看你敢不敢而已啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:25.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:26.425000+08:00","text":"連制憲都可以了啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:27.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:34.946000+08:00","text":"但是如果站在大法官的立場，大法官在我看來已經是極度保守、一個極度保守的組成了！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:35.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:41.328000+08:00","text":"有一些進步的想法，立法院卻期待他一定要有一個民意的基礎，笑死人了！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:41.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:42.168000+08:00","text":"你的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:42.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:52:42.208000+08:00","text":"大膽講出來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T13:52:44.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:02.471000+08:00","text":"大法官在做成的時候當然不會是只以民意為考量，他最終還是要忠於憲法，看憲法上面在保障人權的意旨是怎麼樣，大法官的責任是要正確的闡述憲法上面的意旨，這個斟酌的情形，不會只以民意去考量。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:03.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:07.454000+08:00","text":"是，所以我的意思就是，譬如今天早上大家一直在談臺大法學院那個案子，你說因為大法官迴避以後剩下九個人，那當然要迴避啊！","quality":0.434},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:07.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:14.922000+08:00","text":"迴避制度是在不管任何一個訴訟案件裡面，只要碰到都要迴避，如果代理秘書長，假設你的案子一審碰到我，我把你判下去了，你輸了，你上訴到二審，你有夠倒楣，我升官了，你二審又碰到我，我當然要迴避啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:14.922000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:22.390000+08:00","text":"如果不用迴避，你又上訴到三審，剛好我升遷速度更快，你三審全部都碰到我，你倒楣都倒楣死了，當然要迴避啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:22.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:55.061000+08:00","text":"所以這個叫做法定事由，全世界各國都一樣，美國就好了，美國沒有憲法法庭，他們叫最高法院，對吧？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:55.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:56.181000+08:00","text":"他們幾個大法官？九個。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:57.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:57.762000+08:00","text":"九個啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:59.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:53:59.822000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:53:59.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:03.283000+08:00","text":"你去看德國，十五個、十六個，但是他分庭嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:03.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:05.564000+08:00","text":"他強調的也不是民意基礎。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:06.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:08.384000+08:00","text":"而且你注意去看美國的人數多少，他的人口是3億；德國8,000萬。","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:08.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:18.873000+08:00","text":"所以我們在跟別人類比的時候，我很擔心這個法案是造成一個產生的衝擊，不然你說尊重大法官有更多元的觀點，這是好事。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:18.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:29.362000+08:00","text":"所以代理秘書長，這個案子如果通過之後，你可以揣測到、預期到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:29.362000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:39.851000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，以現在的人數會過喔！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:39.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:40.872000+08:00","text":"你不要開玩笑，真的會過喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:41.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:43.733000+08:00","text":"所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:44.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:48.797000+08:00","text":"要去告訴社會這個會產生怎麼樣的結果，我看你們也沒有做。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:49.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:49.217000+08:00","text":"你看以前的老國大，你記不記得？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:49.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:51.058000+08:00","text":"擴權自肥案，導致整個第五次修憲無效，為什麼？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:51.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:54:51.358000+08:00","text":"為什麼修憲可以無效？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:54:51.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:55:09.820000+08:00","text":"大法官就跟你說無效，也沒有人會跟你講你沒有民意基礎啊！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:55:11.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:55:11.461000+08:00","text":"是不是這樣說？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:55:11.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:55:14.525000+08:00","text":"這怎麼會是說什麼民意的基礎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:55:15.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:55:18.348000+08:00","text":"所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:55:21.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:55:42.920000+08:00","text":"今天大家針對這樣的法案在做討論的時候，司法院本身的立場不夠明確，司法院大法官、憲法法庭是維護自由民主憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的憲法守護神，這樣的一個職能，你們不能把它給拋棄掉了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:55:44.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:01.001000+08:00","text":"從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面，社會當然可以去挑戰正當性，但是這是一個憲政的基礎，如果這條線，如果你們自己本身都覺得隨便、沒關係，我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:01.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:21.554000+08:00","text":"我很喜歡德國聯邦憲法法庭的一位法官P.Kirchhoff講過的一句話，我來送給你，他說立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關，他也是憲法的共同形成者。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:22.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:26.816000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個很重要，變成現代國家憲法形塑的保證。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:26.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:28.936000+08:00","text":"司法院不是立法院的敵人，不會是啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:29.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:39.646000+08:00","text":"立法院也不會是你們的敵人，但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚，我真的是期許，司法院來到這裡，可以大聲一點，你也不一定要跟人家互罵，但是你立場要很堅硬啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:39.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:41.788000+08:00","text":"因為畢竟守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院，是各個憲政機關，連立法院，我們都是共同守護憲法的夥伴，你們自己要加油，好嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:42.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:43.649000+08:00","text":"對社會真的是要把立場講得夠清楚，產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣，否則是在開玩笑？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:43.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:56:55.458500+08:00","text":"如果要比人頭，我跟你說這一個方法，你不用來，這一個方法，我們一定輸國民黨，加上民眾黨如果舉手，我們就輸了。","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-21T13:56:55.458500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:57:07.268000+08:00","text":"好，OK！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-21T13:57:07.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-21T13:57:07.288000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-21T13:57:07.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-21T13:57:10.930857+08:00","text":"我們下一位請陳俊宇委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請司法院代理秘書長。"],["主席：黃副秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：憲法法庭書記廳廳長也請上來，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，我剛才聽了翁委員跟你的對話，似乎大家的看法又稍微接近了一點。但是我還是有一點非常不認同的地方，憲法法庭、大法官會議，國民黨的朋友一直認為你們沒有民意基礎。很難想像，在我國的各級法院，任何一個判決裡面，會講到所謂民意的基礎，我反而認為大法官、憲法法庭，民意是很沸騰的，各級法院的法官反而要非常保持冷靜、我心如秤，怎麼會是外界的民意多沸騰，希望你怎麼樣那你就怎麼樣！如果是這樣子的話，所謂的獨立於黨派之外，要法官為獨立審判，規定這樣的一個條文就可能就失去其意義。","其實翁委員的立法，我知道他的意思要幹什麼，他一直是希望，大法官、憲法法庭裡面能夠涵蓋更多元的意見和觀點。但是我看了你最近的答詢，我上一次也跟你們講，司法院是一個憲政機關，立法院跟你們其實是平起平坐，你們到這個地方，這一次從翁委員提出他的草案以後，我發現你們的立場踩得不夠硬，為什麼說不夠硬？你們不是為自己而硬，而是為憲政機關，你們該有的態度，你們要讓民眾知道。譬如從翁委員上個會期提到憲法訴訟法的修正條文裡面，這個我相信很多人也會高度質疑，就是會不會變相去卡關到憲法法庭的違憲審查和其他重要的職能？由這整個人數裡面來看，假設憲法法庭組成以後，案件要進來了，第一個就是到底要不要受理，這會牽扯到要不要受理的話，本身就要去做評議；然後一個憲法的判決要做出來以後，你們再評決裡面的人到底還夠不夠；另外第三個就是你還是做一個暫時處分。總共涉及三個環節。我一直認為，譬如說，憲法法庭裡面反而是要把它降低，這點我的看法就跟翁委員剛好相反，相反不是不能對話。其實牽扯到整個釋憲案件，人民的訴訟案件跟行政部門、各個機關所提的訴訟案件，那是千差萬別啊！也就是說，憲法法庭大法官的意義、功能到底要幹什麼？就是要提供一個最後的、限制政府機關的權力，來讓老百姓得到更好的救濟，不是如此嗎？代理秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你也認為是如此嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是如此的話，我倒會覺得你也可以建議他們啊！人民聲請釋憲的部分反而標準要更低，讓他更容易有機會進入到憲法法庭，除非他胡說八道、程序不完備或者不附任何理由，一看就知道不可能受理的。對於行政部門提出釋憲的部分，也許他認為你本身也是擁有公權力的一個機關，也許它的門檻稍微可以去做一個調高。把它區分人民跟政府。我不曉得通不通，但是我直接的感受就是，憲法法庭本來就是要提供給民眾，萬一他受委屈了，怎麼辦？像我們很多一審、二審、三審的案件，一個終局判決做下來以後，那你怎麼辦？他要聲請釋憲啊！理論上到三審定讞了以後，這個案子已經結束了，可是現在變成民眾可以拿憲法法庭的判決來聲請再審，這個就是提供人民一個救濟的機會。","你們來到這裡都變得不好意思，我再講一次，立法院水準真的沒有很高啦！你們要大聲跟社會講！你們只是比較不好意思這樣說而已。譬如說要談法律見解，你們司法院站出來還沒有辦法跟立法院對抗，不就笑死人了嗎？不是嗎？那麼多的法律案會被憲法法庭宣告違憲，為什麼社會上會給你們拍手？有原因啦！不是因為你們擁有民意基礎啦！不是！你們還是沒有民意基礎，可是你們做出來，大家會說：哇，大法官好棒！我早上舉過例子啊，酒駕的人被強制抽血，大法官就說：你要限期修法！對不對？立法院可能跟你講：我理你？！我是民選出來的，我就不理你！不理你就宣告無效，就這麼簡單！涉及人權的保障，老百姓就會站在你這一邊，不是嗎？你看，涉及異國婚姻子女監護權的，這是大法官很有名的一個見解啊！你說任何一造要把子女帶出去，大法官就跟你講：不行，也要尊重這個小朋友的主觀意願。裁定就把確定判決給廢棄掉了啊！不是這樣子嗎？所以這個時候大法官有沒有民意基礎？沒有啊！可是民眾拍手，說大法官好棒！","什麼時候大法官、憲法法庭的法官有過民意基礎，沒有啊！以前老國代也好，老立委也好，終身啊，做一輩子啊！大法官會議做出一個判決，定期馬上就改選掉了，不是嗎？甚至於國民黨最怕的是什麼？國民黨最怕的是，到底修憲的幅度到什麼地方？大法官也可以有你們自己的看法啊！以現在臺灣的政治環境來看的話，看你敢不敢而已啊！連制憲都可以了啊！但是如果站在大法官的立場，大法官在我看來已經是極度保守、一個極度保守的組成了！有一些進步的想法，立法院卻期待他一定要有一個民意的基礎，笑死人了！","你的看法是怎麼樣？大膽講出來！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在做成的時候當然不會是只以民意為考量，他最終還是要忠於憲法，看憲法上面在保障人權的意旨是怎麼樣，大法官的責任是要正確的闡述憲法上面的意旨，這個斟酌的情形，不會只以民意去考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以我的意思就是，譬如今天早上大家一直在談臺大法學院那個案子，你說因為大法官迴避以後剩下九個人，那當然要迴避啊！迴避制度是在不管任何一個訴訟案件裡面，只要碰到都要迴避，如果代理秘書長，假設你的案子一審碰到我，我把你判下去了，你輸了，你上訴到二審，你有夠倒楣，我升官了，你二審又碰到我，我當然要迴避啊！如果不用迴避，你又上訴到三審，剛好我升遷速度更快，你三審全部都碰到我，你倒楣都倒楣死了，當然要迴避啊！所以這個叫做法定事由，全世界各國都一樣，美國就好了，美國沒有憲法法庭，他們叫最高法院，對吧？他們幾個大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：九個。"],["莊委員瑞雄：九個啊！對不對？你去看德國，十五個、十六個，但是他分庭嘛！他強調的也不是民意基礎。而且你注意去看美國的人數多少，他的人口是3億；德國8,000萬。所以我們在跟別人類比的時候，我很擔心這個法案是造成一個產生的衝擊，不然你說尊重大法官有更多元的觀點，這是好事。所以代理秘書長，這個案子如果通過之後，你可以揣測到、預期到……","我跟你講，以現在的人數會過喔！你不要開玩笑，真的會過喔！所以你們司法院的態度要很硬啊！要去告訴社會這個會產生怎麼樣的結果，我看你們也沒有做。你看以前的老國大，你記不記得？擴權自肥案，導致整個第五次修憲無效，為什麼？為什麼修憲可以無效？大法官就跟你說無效，也沒有人會跟你講你沒有民意基礎啊！是不是這樣說？這怎麼會是說什麼民意的基礎？","所以我倒會比較擔心一點啦！今天大家針對這樣的法案在做討論的時候，司法院本身的立場不夠明確，司法院大法官、憲法法庭是維護自由民主憲政秩序跟保障人民基本權利的憲法守護神，這樣的一個職能，你們不能把它給拋棄掉了。從過去的大法官會議跟現在的憲法法庭裡面，社會當然可以去挑戰正當性，但是這是一個憲政的基礎，如果這條線，如果你們自己本身都覺得隨便、沒關係，我覺得那是很嚴重的事情喔！我很喜歡德國聯邦憲法法庭的一位法官P.Kirchhoff講過的一句話，我來送給你，他說立法者不只是由憲法所劃定界限的機關，他也是憲法的共同形成者。我覺得這個很重要，變成現代國家憲法形塑的保證。司法院不是立法院的敵人，不會是啦！立法院也不會是你們的敵人，但是我認為你們講得不夠清楚，我真的是期許，司法院來到這裡，可以大聲一點，你也不一定要跟人家互罵，但是你立場要很堅硬啊！因為畢竟守護這一部憲法不是只有你司法院，是各個憲政機關，連立法院，我們都是共同守護憲法的夥伴，你們自己要加油，好嗎？對社會真的是要把立場講得夠清楚，產生的衝擊會是怎麼樣，否則是在開玩笑？如果要比人頭，我跟你說這一個方法，你不用來，這一個方法，我們一定輸國民黨，加上民眾黨如果舉手，我們就輸了。好，OK！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","傅崐萁","蔡易餘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等\n16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}