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那個國家是歐盟的國家"},{"start":229.98,"end":236.709,"text":"就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家已經洽談好所以短期之內就會有動作應該是"},{"start":240.526,"end":242.729,"text":"部長我不希望對我們也希望不要有任何人把台灣當是避風港"},{"start":261.61,"end":269.724,"text":"不要以為說台灣我們中華民國是話外之地如果說該遣送就遣送要處理合理制裁但更重要的是這件事情如果沒有聯繫好的話會讓國人滑爛"},{"start":272.645,"end":301.687,"text":"所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫遣送的話是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道是說我們讓他依法來去做後續的處理好我們盡速跟社會大眾報告再來部長請教南非住管限期被迫遷移的部分那我們也很重視啊我想我不容許我們也認為是說我們的感情也好我們的相關的一個法令也好怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的這個住管要遷移而且"},{"start":302.307,"end":302.767,"text":"有,我們有召見。"},{"start":328.1,"end":344.345,"text":"他怎麼講?他就是由南非外交部透過一個電函給我們住處我們就是針對這個我們也有富含南非政府就是表達我們的立場"},{"start":345.205,"end":348.786,"text":"對﹖那他怎麼說不是你親自召見為什麼你要請人家講你剛講你親自召見然後你要請別人回答是"},{"start":373.888,"end":398.139,"text":"有沒有召見啊來我們部長洪仁你這樣讓我懷疑你好像沒有召見耶好 洪仁跟委員報告部長是我召見的是我召見的好因為那天部長正好另外有工忙是嘛所以事情一出來之後我立即就請南非組的代表到辦公室那部長下次國會殿堂有一說一你有時間很忙你也可以講時間很忙但是我們這共同關心來來這個是"},{"start":411.771,"end":421.477,"text":"他當然是忠實的轉達他們政府的政策了那我也代表他們政府政策為什麼會這樣做以前沒有現在突然間這樣做他的理由是什麼"},{"start":422.435,"end":437.715,"text":"那這是他作為前線的這個出外代表他是執行他政府的政策那我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿還有不能接受不能接受嘛國人沒有辦法接受喔來部長"},{"start":439.741,"end":468.386,"text":"部長沒有辦法接受那我有看到你說研議小組那研議小組現在是只有除了說比較具體的有可能要求駐台的南非辦事處遷離台北市對不對我們用一樣的動作反制當然有人就講是說到底這樣子會懲罰到誰但另外一個部分啊我們還有沒有更具體如果說10月底到了南非政府真的在他們的首都對於我們的外館"},{"start":469.525,"end":483.424,"text":"有很強硬的動作我們怎麼樣保護我們外管的同仁我們當然會以外管同仁的安全就是做最重要那在這個期間因為他"},{"start":484.423,"end":507.638,"text":"如果有違法的行動我們也會訴諸法律嘛那這些強制的行為影響到我們住管人員的安全我們會以安全保護我們的住管人員如果11月1號我不知道南非政府怎麼做但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士我們的住管人員要去開門要去open9點鐘到了要營業"},{"start":509.159,"end":535.209,"text":"結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演我們就是說因為那個產權是我們台灣的嘛中華民國的所以他任何的詳細行為都有違法我們當然會訴諸我們的法律的保障所以我們會提起國際仲裁"},{"start":536.409,"end":559.525,"text":"還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭這個如果是屬於他違反他們自己國家的法律我們當然也會伸張我們的權益啊是 現在我們但是同一陣線我沒有辦法允許任何國家即便我們剛剛沒有邦交但是突然間一紙公文要求說十月底搬離我拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊"},{"start":560.565,"end":580.814,"text":"更何況是在我們正式我們中華民國的一個辦事處那一樣嘛我現在講的是說後續如果說他真的那麼強硬的態度那我們有什麼國際上應有作為你剛也講了1997年他等於是片面毀約那如果片面毀約的話我們有什麼救濟管道國際仲裁有沒有"},{"start":582.564,"end":583.844,"text":"聯合國我們有沒有資格"},{"start":612.323,"end":627.629,"text":"我當然是鼓勵你要去打意見支持我們的意見多表達但重點在是我們還有什麼方法可以做我們有相應的反制的作為包括我們就是基於對等的原則我們也會就是要求"},{"start":629.07,"end":629.851,"text":"臺灣2300萬人尊嚴最後一個請教我們現在非洲"},{"start":658.593,"end":683.01,"text":"有幾個邦交國一個哪一個斯瓦帝尼斯瓦帝尼他現在對於我們因為斯瓦帝尼相對來講跟南非關係好像也不錯對算是密切嘛因為他在他的南非裡面而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒啊所以他們可能經濟政治等等都有相關的一些交流"},{"start":684.358,"end":690.905,"text":"施瓦帝尼 如果說現在南非有這樣的一個狀況粗暴的一個動作的話我們施瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎"},{"start":692.418,"end":694.2,"text":"部長最後一次跟我們斯瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候?"},{"start":718.404,"end":747.237,"text":"我因為電報非常的快速啦所以我們幾乎是每天啊都對這個情況都施法定理這個部分也是都保持聯繫都有掌握對好 部長本席要提醒啊12個邦交國是我們現在中華民國還有的那本席真的不希望有任何的邦交國再有任何的一個鬆動所以也希望外交部要努力好那該掌握的情報要掌握是好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":748.895,"end":749.359,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時41分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最近大家關心有一個國際詐欺犯騙了10億元，來到臺灣5年了，後來被我們移民署掌握，現在要把他遣送，沒想到遣送到了新加坡，新加坡不收，現在又退回來。本席看到現在由外交部協助，是要跟歐盟這邊來做聯繫溝通，我們說沒有辦法直接送回給西班牙，讓他們去做相關的刑事處罰，是因為我們沒有直飛班機。我想請教一下，已經回來臺灣一天多的時間，目前外交部有怎麼樣的協助進展？"],["林部長佳龍：現在內政部移民署他們在處理當中，就是已經有聯繫……"],["洪委員孟楷：聯繫誰？西班牙？"],["林部長佳龍：應該西班牙有跟歐盟的國家聯繫，所以已經有洽談要遣送的國家，他們之間會再進行，因為這涉及到一些引渡條約。再來，因為這是國際刑警組織發布的紅色通報，所以我們都是支持配合他們遣返的作業。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然支持配合沒有問題，你是外交部部長，我在外交委員會為什麼會點出這個問題？當然這與移民署相關，但是我們看到報導講說外交部幫忙跟西班牙政府協商，這是西班牙政府應該要管轄的，那個人逃來臺灣5年，在臺灣吃香喝辣5年，大家沒有辦法接受。現在他變成人球，說要送到新加坡，結果新加坡又把他退回來，我不知道這到底是移民署沒有溝通好，還是外交部沒有溝通好？不過被送回當人球是事實，我們看到新聞報導是昨天早上6點已經回到臺灣，但沒有辦法讓他入境，所以他現在變成是三不管，他有可能是在境外，也就是海關這邊，那我們現在想要問的是，什麼時候他可以接受法律的制裁？要多久時間？他現在這一段在海關的費用誰處理？還是我們中華民國政府處理耶！"],["林部長佳龍：這個已經有洽談好，因為西班牙跟現在我們要遣送的對象國家已經有洽談好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪個國家？有確定了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個是他們的……我想涉及到一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是機密嗎？如果機密你可以不要講，但我想問有確定了是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經確定了？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候這一個人可以送回？"],["林部長佳龍：應該就在辦理中嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候啊？我們現在已經……"],["林部長佳龍：用最快的速度，如果有班機，然後因為有要接的國家，雖然從新加坡那邊去，因為他們先前以為是他們同意，後來就是說沒有辦理、沒有辦法在新加坡，所以就又遣返臺灣，然後現在已經要遣送到第三國。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以已經確認遣送第三國？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那個國家是歐盟的國家？"],["林部長佳龍：就是西班牙已經有洽談好可以接受的國家。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經洽談好？所以短期之內就會有動作？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我覺得你好像在狀況外耶！"],["林部長佳龍：因為我現在在立法院，雖然相關作業程序我隨時都有掌握，但是因為班機是什麼時候、進行到哪裡，我想就是由執行單位，包括移民署他們之間在處理中。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們也希望不要有任何人把臺灣當成避風港，不要以為我們中華民國臺灣是化外之地，如果該遣送就遣送，而且要合理制裁，但更重要的是，這件事情若沒有聯繫好的話，會讓國人譁然，所以如果說遣送……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們這幾天很密切的在聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，如果遣送的話，是不是也發一個新聞稿讓大家知道我們讓他依法去做後續的處理？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們儘速跟社會大眾報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來請教南非駐館限期被迫遷移的部分，我們也很重視，我想我們不容許，也認為不管感情也好，相關的一個法令也好，怎麼會突然有任何國家要求我們的駐館要遷移，而且蠻不禮貌的，說限期10月底要遷移。早上你已經有回答過了，但你說很多的應變小組也做了，現在應變小組除了我們對於南非駐臺灣的辦事處，我們有沒有找南非駐臺灣的代表來溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼會有那麼粗暴的一個作為？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們有召見。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後他怎麼講？"],["林部長佳龍：他怎麼講？就是南非外交部，透過一個電函給我們駐處，我們針對這個也有復函南非政府，表達我們的立場，也會據理力爭，因為這是片面毀約，違反我們1997年雙邊簽署的協議架構。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，是你親自召見駐臺的南非代表嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那他怎麼說？"],["林部長佳龍：我請我們司長。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，他怎麼說？不是你親自召見，為什麼你要請人家講？你剛剛講你親自召見，然後你要請別人回答？有沒有召見啦？"],["林部長佳龍：來，我們同仁……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣讓我懷疑，你好像沒有召見耶！"],["林部長佳龍：好，同仁……"],["賀司長忠義：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，部長！"],["賀司長忠義：是我召見的，是我召見的，因為那天部長正好另外有公忙，所以事情一出來之後，我立即就請南非駐臺代表到我辦公室。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！部長，下次國會殿堂有一說一，你很忙，你也可以講很忙，但是我們共同關心。來，這個是非洲司司長，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：亞非司。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，亞非司司長賀忠義，是不是？來，賀司長，那個代表怎麼說？"],["賀司長忠義：他當然是忠實的轉達他們政府的政策，我也代表……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們政府政策為什麼會這樣做，以前沒有現在突然間這樣做，他的理由是什麼？"],["賀司長忠義：他作為前線的駐外代表，他是執行他們政府的政策，我們當然也代表政府向他表達最強烈的抗議跟我們的不滿，還有不能接受。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能接受嘛！國人沒有辦法接受啊！部長，我們沒有辦法接受，我有看到你說研議小組，那研議小組現在有除了比較具體的，有可能要求駐臺的南非辦事處遷離臺北市，對不對？我們用一樣的動作反制，當然有人就講，到底這樣子會懲罰到誰？另外一個部分，我們還有沒有更具體的？如果說10月底到了，南非政府真的在他們的首都，對於我們的外館有很強硬的動作，我們怎麼樣保護外館的同仁？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然會以外館同仁的安全這個為最重要啦！在這個期間它如果有違法的行動，我們也會訴諸法律嘛！如果強制的行為……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果11月1號……"],["林部長佳龍：影響到我們駐館人員的安全，我們會以安全、保護我們的駐館人員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果11月1號，我不知道南非政府怎麼做，但如果11月1號真的有他們政府或相關人士，當我們的駐館人員要去開門，要去open，9點鐘到了要營業，結果他們有人阻撓不讓我們開門怎麼辦？"],["林部長佳龍：這個情境我們都有做沙盤推演……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["林部長佳龍：因為那個產權是我們臺灣的嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：中華民國的啦！"],["林部長佳龍：所以它任何強制的行為，如果有違法，我們當然會訴諸法律的保障，那因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們會提起國際仲裁？還是什麼樣的一個國際的法庭？"],["林部長佳龍：如果是屬於它違反他們自己國家的法律，我們當然也會伸張我們的權益。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在我們待在同一陣線，我沒有辦法允許任何國家，即便我們跟它沒有邦交，但是突然間一紙公文要求10月底搬離，拆違建也沒有拆成這樣子啊！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：更何況是在正式的我們中華民國的一個辦事處，那一樣嘛，我現在講是後續，如果它真的用那麼強硬的態度，我們有什麼國際上應有作為？你剛剛也講了1997年，所以它等於是片面毀約，如果片面毀約的話，我們有什麼救濟管道？國際仲裁有沒有？聯合國裡我們有沒有資格提？"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們的因應方案，隨著現在的發展，包括他們南非聯合政府裡面的成員也發表不同意見，表示這沒有經過內閣會議，因為新政府在大選後剛組閣，也有他們的國會議員，還包括很有影響力的媒體，另外我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講這些都是外部因素，本席現在要問的主要核心問題是我們能夠怎麼做……"],["林部長佳龍：我剛才講的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：鼓勵你把支持我們的意見多表達，但重點在於我們還有什麼方法可以做？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有相應的反制作為，就是基於對等的原則，也會要求他們，他們對我們不公平的對待，我們也會有一些因應的作為，包括他們臺灣的駐處，我們會要求同樣的方式……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，看起來你還是在繞圈圈啊！"],["林部長佳龍：也要遷離我們的首都。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我希望你能夠硬起來，中華民國的尊嚴，臺灣2,300萬人的尊嚴。","最後請教，我們現在在非洲有幾個邦交國？"],["林部長佳龍：1個。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪一個？"],["林部長佳龍：史瓦帝尼。"],["洪委員孟楷：史瓦帝尼，相對於我們來講，現在史瓦帝尼跟南非關係好像也不錯？"],["林部長佳龍：對，算是密切，因為它在南非裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且上個月該國國王也迎娶了南非前總統的女兒，所以他們可能經濟、政治等等都有相關的一些交流。如果現在南非有這樣的狀況、粗暴的動作的話，我們和史瓦帝尼的邦交穩定嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：穩定，我們都密切注意，也特別加強。"],["洪委員孟楷：有特別加強？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的特別加強？"],["林部長佳龍：因為史王在今年我們520總統、副總統就職典禮的時候，我有機會跟他做比較密切的交換意見，有一些合作事項也都順利在進行中。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，最後一次跟史瓦帝尼大使通電話或是瞭解相關的資訊是什麼時候？"],["林部長佳龍：因為電報非常的快速，所以我們幾乎是每天都對這個情況……史瓦帝尼也都保持聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：都有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席要提醒，12個邦交國是現在中華民國還有的，本席真的不希望再有任何的邦交國鬆動，所以也希望外交部要努力。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：該掌握的情報要掌握。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，部長請回。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","接下來請陳培瑜委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}