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行走的時候台灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助我們是出錢出力啊從來沒有缺席過但是過去這幾年"},{"start":509.977,"end":536.68,"text":"我們一路上面看下來變成是什麼我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國嘛結果搞到現在斷交剩下兩個一個貝里斯一個瓜地拉馬然後再來這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納台灣啊來我直接看啊排名啊是第一名"},{"start":537.506,"end":563.331,"text":"到最近第8次增資的時候國際社會已經在質疑中美中銀行在幹什麼成為獨裁者的金庫第8次增資的時候有很多其他區域外的會員國大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫我們應該再往錢往裡面砸嗎砸進去了以後錢跑到哪裡去真的跑去幫助人民嗎"},{"start":564.591,"end":587.812,"text":"跑去幫助學童嗎?跑去幫助婦女嗎?還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去所以第8次爭執的時候我老實講在立法院那個時候我們到底要不要參加這件事情有少數瞭解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候大家是很在乎在面對國際社會的時候"},{"start":591.124,"end":608.295,"text":"蔡英文前總統說不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐部長同不同意同意啊也同意嘛這個也是你說的嘛是好我最後一個問題中美洲銀行那邊我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款其他的國家繳股款第8次增資的股款會還是不會"},{"start":616.718,"end":617.938,"text":"剛剛同仁講他們並沒有這樣的計畫確定沒有?"},{"start":642.779,"end":664.029,"text":"我只要你一句話有還是沒有會還是不會來你來說明一下是報委員增資的部分我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款確定絕對不會拿台灣納稅的錢幫其他國家搞繳股款這個是確定的事情了是嗎我是講第8次增資的部分我們不會繳股款那未來呢"},{"start":666.735,"end":679.065,"text":"我跟委員說明一下其實我們現在想要除了加強監督還有你提到的這個對啦這個我都知道要加強監督理事在裡面有積極的矯正但請回答我一個關鍵的問題在國會裡面把話說清楚我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款我只問這件事"},{"start":687.432,"end":689.694,"text":"會還是不會?你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責了,會還是不會?奇怪了,你們的問題怎麼反覆來?剛剛部長說不會,你現在又說考慮?"},{"start":717.892,"end":718.473,"text":"要花多少錢?"},{"start":731.274,"end":739.778,"text":"我只講一件事啦繼續投錢下去甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢拿台灣納稅的錢去繳丟到裡面去我希望外交部要慎重從這家銀行過去喔怎麼對待台灣發展到今天的歷史"},{"start":759.227,"end":766.724,"text":"我們繼續投錢下去還不夠如果還要拿台灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款我希望外交部要慎重考慮"},{"start":767.99,"end":793.502,"text":"是 我跟委員也說明一下我們是不是可以從另外一個角度我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行可以來發揮我們榮邦計畫那因為現在相對比較單純嘛因為現在就是我們現在瓜地馬拉跟加勒比亞兩個邦交國那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大我有請同仁去研究可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為交款這個還沒有報告"},{"start":795.043,"end":821.755,"text":"我直接跟部長講你講那個你真的好好地去研究一下中美洲銀行我們在裡面一席常駐理事你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席可以主導中美洲銀行今天台灣如果在裡面是理事主席可以主導整個中美洲銀行要丟錢下去我一定贊成但是台灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼被人家當盤子"},{"start":823.969,"end":824.089,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：南非對於我們國家這種粗暴的要求，全體國人都應該站在政府背後做外交部最強的後盾，我覺得對外我們的立場要一致，對內大家有不同看法沒關係，對外立場一定要一致，這個是我向來的原則。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：在這個原則下，正式進入今天的主題以前，有幾個問題請教一下部長，請問我們是什麼時候接到南非這個無理的要求？"],["林部長佳龍：大概去年12月的時候他們有口頭表達，今年4月的時候就有跟我們提出限期半年內要搬遷館處。"],["黃委員國昌：那過去半年我們做了什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們透過各種的溝通，因為南非剛好有總統跟國會的大選，所以我們跟各黨派其實都有聯繫，希望在大選之後有所調整。","另外，跟美、日以及一些理念相近國家其實是有很頻繁的在討論，他們也替我們去逕洽南非政府，甚至在一些國際場合，相當層次的外交部代表有向南非表達關切。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，這個過程的還原，我覺得滿重要的，因為我看不管是媒體或者是有一些委員質詢，說我們突然收到這樣的通知，但因為跟我看到南非那邊的外電所寫得不太一樣，所以我第一個先把事實的經過先還原。"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是10月7號在我們國慶酒會的時候特別又發了一個電函。"],["黃委員國昌：是，因為南非那邊的官員是講說他們已經給臺灣充足的時間做準備了，我看到這個外電的時候有點驚訝，因為跟我在臺灣媒體上所看到的不太一樣，所以事實先釐清，這是第一個。","第二個，我們現在在南非那邊的辦事處，那個地方的所有權是我們的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以依照南非的法律，它有權力要求我們搬走嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：就是那個產權是我們的，它沒辦法逕行幫我們改變……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個是所有權沒有辦法移轉……"],["林部長佳龍：但是館處搬遷，我們有1997年的雙邊協議……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，我們的問答就請針對問題回答，你之前回答其他委員時，那些講過的話就不要再講了。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很具體，南非辦事處的產權是我們的嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，它也沒辦法逼我們賣掉嘛？它可以逼我們賣掉嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：呃，沒有辦法吧。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第三個，依照目前南非的法律跟相關的國際條約，它有可能強制要我們搬走嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果以合法的手段，它除非有什麼樣的法令依據嘛，不然的話它不能夠違法。"],["黃委員國昌：我先提醒部長一件事，就是我們要在外交上面作戰很辛苦，但是你既然要作戰，你也談到法律手段，就要把相關的法令請研究清楚，這樣模棱兩可沒有辦法對外作戰的啦！"],["林部長佳龍：對，跟委員報告，其實法律方面的權益，我們也都研究過，就是透過訴訟，如果它對我們有一些強制行為是違法的。"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，所以除非他們對我們使用強制力，要不然的話，我們自己不會搬走，立場是不是這個樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第三個部分，目前南非駐在臺灣的辦事處，那個應該是用租的吧？"],["林部長佳龍：租的。"],["黃委員國昌：租的嘛，在它租約沒有終止以前，依照臺灣的法律，我們有沒有辦法強制它搬走？"],["林部長佳龍：這個我有請同仁在研究……"],["黃委員國昌：那研究的結論是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然會有個期間啦，因為這個還是要按照我們的法律，我們是法治國家嘛，它如果說它自己要……"],["黃委員國昌：不要一直抽象講依照我們的法律，我再把問題講清楚，它的辦事處在臺北是租的嘛，它有個房東嘛，在它租約沒有終止以前，依照我們國家的法律，我們外交部可不可以逼它搬離臺北市到新北市去？"],["林部長佳龍：我們是可以去找跟它的簽約對象，因為這種情況應該在契約裡面都有說明，如果有一些情境是可以終止契約。"],["黃委員國昌：所以剛剛您所講的是按照契約的條款，我們可以要求那個房東跟它終止契約？"],["林部長佳龍：另外，我們可以要求它先停止運作嘛，因為這個是在我們……"],["黃委員國昌：這麼嚴重喔？要求它停止運作？這個是你的報復手段之一就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我希望啦，我提這些問題，我只希望部長要想清楚，我們國人一定做外交部的後盾……"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：但不管是對外的法律戰，或者是對內，臺灣是一個法治國家，我們總不可能像2017年奈及利亞要我們遷離的時候派25個武裝警察強迫我們搬走嘛，臺灣不可能幹這種事嘛，既然臺灣不會幹這種事情，因為我相信2017年的經驗，外交部的同仁應該都很熟啦，我們臺灣不會幹這種事，所以對內的法律戰，我也請部長先準備好。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為不管是外交、法律，我們臺灣是民主法治的國家，我們一切依法來做，我們要以理服人，不是以力服人，這樣我們在國際社會才會得到尊重嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的態度，部長也同意嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我很快地進入我今天的主題，我一直很關心CABEI這一件事情，所以我之前離開立法院的時候，中美洲銀行是一個獨裁者的金庫，我跟國際的反貪腐組織合作，那個錢不可以拿去胡搞瞎搞。那中美洲銀行怎麼胡搞瞎搞，為什麼我會關心？因為關臺灣的事嘛。我們是第一大股東，占有的持股超過11%耶，第一大股東耶，所以那個時候，即使是美國的CSIS都希望臺灣這邊要注意，不要讓CABEI胡搞瞎搞，成為獨裁者的金庫，要不然我們臺灣，我們在號稱我們要用民主法治跟人權加入民主同盟，用價值在國際社會行走，結果我們竟然去資助一個獨裁者的金庫，這對於臺灣的國際形象傷害太大了。部長同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看。臺灣對於中美洲銀行，我必須老實講，作為一位臺灣人，我們真的是盡心盡力，沒有虧待中美洲的那些友邦。我們一開始加入中美洲銀行是為了什麼？就是為了要穩定我們在中美洲的邦交。所以你看一開始的創始會員國，區域內的創始會員國本來都跟我們有邦交的，結果搞到現在只剩兩個，有五個在蔡政府時期的時候斷交，哥斯大黎加是2007年的時候就斷交，當然這個背後都有老共的影子，我們大家都心知肚明。在國際上行走的時候，臺灣人對於中美洲那邊需要的協助，我們是出錢出力，從來沒有缺席過，但是過去這幾年，我們一路上看下來變成是什麼？我們一開始在中美洲銀行投資那麼多，是因為裡面都是我們的邦交國，結果搞到現在紛紛斷交剩下兩個：一個貝里斯，一個瓜地馬拉。","然後再來，這個是我們在中美洲銀行股款的繳納，來，我直接看，臺灣的排名是第一名，到最近第八次增資的時候，國際社會已經在質疑中美洲銀行在幹什麼，成為獨裁者的金庫，第八次增資的時候，有很多其他區域外的會員國，大家對於要再拿錢出來是充滿了猶豫，我們應該再把錢往裡面砸嗎？砸進去了以後，錢跑到哪裡去？真的跑去幫助人民嗎？跑去幫助學童嗎？跑去幫助婦女嗎？還是跑到了貪污者、獨裁者的口袋裡面去。","所以第八次增資的時候，我老實講，立法院在那個時候就我們到底要不要參加這件事情，有少數了解情況關心的委員開始在質詢的時候，大家是很在乎，在面對國際社會的時候，蔡英文前總統說，不會跟中國進行無意義的金錢外交競逐，部長同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：也同意嘛？這個也是你說的嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我最後一個問題，中美洲銀行那邊，我們會不會幫其他的國家繳股款？"],["林部長佳龍：其他的國家繳？"],["黃委員國昌：股款，第八次增資的股款，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：同仁……我們沒有這個規劃嘛？"],["黃委員國昌：我只要你一句話就好，因為我接到檢舉……"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：我接到檢舉，說臺灣有可能會幫其他國家繳股款，我只要確認這件事情，我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛同仁講，他們並沒有這樣的計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：確定沒有？我只要你一句話，有還是沒有？會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：第八次增資，來，你來說明一下。"],["孫司長儉元：報告委員，增資的部分，我們不會協助任何國家來繳股款。"],["黃委員國昌：確定？絕對不會拿臺灣納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款，這個是確定的事情了，是嗎？"],["孫司長儉元：我是講第八次增資的部分我們不會繳股款。"],["黃委員國昌：那未來呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明一下，其實我們現在除了加強監督，還有你提到的這個……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！這個我都知道，要加強監督，你們志在裡面有積極的角色……"],["林部長佳龍：我們希望引導中美洲銀行……"],["黃委員國昌：但請回答我一個關鍵的問題，在國會裡面把話說清楚，我們會不會拿納稅人的錢幫其他國家繳股款？我只問這件事，會還是不會？"],["林部長佳龍：好，請同仁說明。"],["黃委員國昌：你們今天在國會裡面講話就要負責任，會還是不會？"],["孫司長儉元：是，報告委員，就是我們希望能夠協助友邦，也增加在中美洲銀行的影響力，共同抗衡資助獨裁政權，所以這個部分確實在我們的考慮之列。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了！你們的問題怎麼反覆啊？剛剛部長說不會，你現在又說考慮。"],["林部長佳龍：他是說第八次增資，我跟委員說明一下，我們是希望把中美洲銀行改造成配合榮邦計畫，事實上，現在也相對單純，那也不只中美洲，我們在加勒比海，甚至在南美洲，我是覺得我們怎麼樣去善用這樣的銀行的資源……"],["黃委員國昌：要花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：我還沒有看到這方面的規劃報告，因為委員關心，我會特別留意。"],["黃委員國昌：我只講一件事，繼續投錢下去，甚至是幫其他的國家繳錢，拿臺灣納稅人的錢去繳，丟到裡面去，我希望外交部要慎重，一定要慎重。這家銀行過去是怎麼對待臺灣，發展到今天的歷史，我們繼續投錢下去還不夠，如果還要拿臺灣納稅人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，我希望外交部要慎重考慮。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我也跟委員說明一下，我們是不是可以從另外一個角度看我們怎麼樣去積極影響中美洲銀行，可以來發揮我們的榮邦計畫？因為現在相對比較單純，我們現在就是瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯兩個邦交國，那是不是在加勒比海或者是其他地方我們也可以擴大，我有請同仁去研究，可是您剛剛提到的所謂的代為繳款，這個部分同仁還沒有提報告給我。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！我直接跟部長講，你講那個，你真的要好好的去研究一下中美洲銀行，我們在裡面是一席常駐理事，你講到好像我們現在已經變成理事主席，可以主導中美洲銀行，今天臺灣如果在裡面是理事主席，可以主導整個中美洲銀行，那我一定贊成丟錢下去，但是臺灣過去這幾年被人家當什麼？被人家當盤子，被人家當盤子還不夠，如果還要再幫其他國家出錢，我是很軟性地跟部長講，請慎重，請慎重。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["黃委員國昌：當然這筆錢該花不該花，國會一定要嚴格把關，好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，部長請回。接下來我們請伍麗華委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}