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來我們來看看圖表這是在所謂的沒有迴避的情況之下迴避零同意的人就是五位那如果有一位大法官迴避現有會變幾位?"},{"start":129.497,"end":131.839,"text":"那同意會變幾位?沒關係你告訴我四位對不對?那迴避二的話現有會剩幾位?然後同意會剩幾位?迴避三的話現有剩幾個?"},{"start":148.921,"end":149.682,"text":"憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":177.892,"end":184.194,"text":"那同意剩幾位?然後現有如果是迴避五位現有剩幾位?三位同意剩幾位?當然越底下越極端嘛我說過啦那迴避是六位呢六位發生過吧對不對那六位那現有會變幾位?"},{"start":202.232,"end":225.331,"text":"你回答我 我只是跟你講邏輯問題嘛 現在有兩位啦 對不對 我知道 我講 我跟你講法律你能夠不顧遇到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎 能不能 你還是要考慮啊我先跟你講嘛 現在規定是不是這樣 同意幾個就可以同意 如果迴避六個 幾個同意就可以了"},{"start":226.701,"end":230.884,"text":"你告訴我啊,過半是幾個?現在有兩個,過半是幾個?過半就是二嘛,不是嗎?那是兩個嘛,來,最極端的狀況,七個迴避,現在有剩幾個?"},{"start":245.203,"end":264.833,"text":"剩幾個啊?你不要跟我講不可能數學上不可能不等於法律上都不可能法律在設計上基本上就要考量各種狀況啊那最後是什麼同意剩幾人照現有法律喔你不要迴避我問題喔你不要跟我講前提可不可以我說如果照現有法律這情況發生7個迴避的時候剩幾個人"},{"start":270.835,"end":283.181,"text":"幾個人啊?你不敢回答我直接告訴你。什麼叫我不管你想像我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人?法律規定。在法研法你是法律人在法研法啊。幾個人?一個人啦!到現在不敢回答!國小數學答不出來!跟吳世堯一樣!"},{"start":293.874,"end":308.101,"text":"我跟你講,我不跟你講極端只一個人。那我們吳宗憲委員說可能只有三四個決定有錯嗎?有沒有可能?你跟我講一個不可能是因為不會迴避七個,你說想像上不可能。那想像上迴避一個總有可能吧?有沒有可能?那就是四個啊!吳宗憲委員說的對不對?他說的對不對?所以我要告訴你啊!今天司法院這個法律你們要謝謝翁曉玲委員啊!"},{"start":324.531,"end":331.974,"text":"他今天就是要把這個漏洞補起來嘛!我今天說實在喔,在想下一個問題,我要跟你講,來來沒關係,我要跟你講今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠堅記多元性跟嚴謹性嘛所以要回到憲法本文的所謂的15個元額來去定義現有嘛,對不對?翁曉玲委員版本是不是?你告訴我"},{"start":349.458,"end":355.339,"text":"為什麼要把你把這麼國小這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長不只是因為吳世耀的數學有問題而是我告訴你這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎"},{"start":375.441,"end":391.987,"text":"因為你不補這個洞因為有這現有迴避的規定的話就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象啊你知道為什麼嗎就像這一次你也知道齁台灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑嘛對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":397.541,"end":412.708,"text":"然後呢這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢止判決為藉有很多的疑慮可是我們親愛的賴清德總統他就提七個大法官六個主張廢除死刑啊"},{"start":414.005,"end":438.233,"text":"而六個主張廢除死刑那我要告訴你問題在哪裡他就算這七個都不過照你現在這種漏洞制度我只要剩下那八個人四個人就可以去通過我今天剛剛吳宗憶委員講的我們大法官目前擁有的第一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地因為他只要現在的人就可以啦"},{"start":439.792,"end":453.519,"text":"這些都是環環相扣的那在下我再請教一下我聽不太懂吳思堯跟民進黨委員我講第二件事情一直強調大法官不需要民意大法官不需要我問一下我有沒有民意基礎我有沒有民意基礎當然啊立法院有沒有民意基礎那為什麼大法官要立法院同意"},{"start":467.711,"end":480.324,"text":"就是要有民意基礎的人同意結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委你跟他講大法官不用民意基礎大法官審判說不需要考慮民意憲法是人民決定的"},{"start":482.455,"end":507.652,"text":"為什麼不用民意基礎這句話都講得出來我真的佩服你阿今天我要說幾句實在話大法官若不需要民意基礎我跟秘書長建議一件事很簡單修憲嘛大法官不需要立法院同意啦大法官就說今天大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝由總統決定任命之結束啦不需要民意基礎就這麼幹就好啦阿幹嘛要民意基礎"},{"start":509.161,"end":524.751,"text":"我再想下一個問題我想請教一下我們副秘書長明顯來講大法官現在的狀況這個所謂的人民申請的釋憲案很多我想請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案受理的比例是多少?政府機關受理了政府機關受理多少?"},{"start":534.965,"end":557.071,"text":"百分之百啦!你們只要民進黨敢送的你哪一個不敢不受理?最近警示民進黨送的東西有沒有受理?只要是行政機關送的你受理沒?民進黨政府受理沒?好統計給我你不敢講沒關係人民的受理多少?人民不受理九成對不對?"},{"start":558.524,"end":561.045,"text":"所以我跟你講今天我們民進黨在這邊講的那個非常光免堂皇的三大論點第一個跟你保證"},{"start":581.79,"end":581.91,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時19分）主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好！"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長，我聽了包括吳思瑤委員，還有前面很多民進黨立委的論述，尤其吳思瑤委員，他特別強調，我們如果不去修改今天的憲法訴訟法，絕對不會出現有幾個大法官就能夠做出憲法判決的情形。到底會不會出現幾個大法官就決定憲法判決的情形，我們吳思瑤委員的數學是100分還是0分，我就請專業的副秘書長和大家，我們來數學檢驗一下。","我想要請教一下副秘書長，現任15位大法官，有7位在10月31日任滿，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，他們任滿之後，還剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：8位。"],["羅委員智強：8位。賴清德總統提出7位所謂的提名人選，目前尚有些爭議，在這7位大法官未獲得同意之前，請問依照現行憲法訴訟法，我們的總額是幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：15位。"],["羅委員智強：這7位未獲得同意之前，是幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下8位。"],["羅委員智強：8位，對不對？好，我想請教你，按照憲法訴訟法第三十條，現有總額在8人的情況之下，大法官判決要有多少人以上參與評議？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：三分之二。"],["羅委員智強：8人的三分之二是幾人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：6位。"],["羅委員智強：6個人。要幾個人同意才能夠做出憲法判決？現有總額過半嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["羅委員智強：8人過半是多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：8人過半的話，就5位。"],["羅委員智強：5位，好。我們來看看圖表，這是在所謂沒有人迴避的情況之下，迴避0位的話，同意的人就是5位，如果有1位大法官迴避，現有會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：會變成7位。"],["羅委員智強：好，同意會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員有列出來。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你告訴我，4位，對不對？迴避2位的話，現有會剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：6位。"],["羅委員智強：同意會剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就變4位。"],["羅委員智強：迴避3位的話，現有剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：像委員……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，我問副秘書長很無聊的國小數學，但是沒辦法，我們的吳思瑤數學就這麼好，我只好用國小數學來問你。現有剩5位，請問同意要幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意當然就是剩下3位，但是這個前提要……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我知道，這個前提是比較特殊的前提。大法官之前都曾經出現過6位，到6位以上都不算特殊，都出現過啦！迴避如果是4位，現有剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下4位。"],["羅委員智強：同意剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剩下3位。"],["羅委員智強：如果是迴避5位，現有剩幾位？3位，同意剩幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這個情形就非常非常的極端……"],["羅委員智強：當然越底下越極端，我說過了啊！迴避是6位的話，6位發生過，對不對？現有會變幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官必須……"],["羅委員智強：你回答我，現在我只是跟你講邏輯問題。現有2位，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我覺得那6位不會發生這種情形……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，我跟你講，法律能夠不顧慮到所謂的最特殊狀況嗎？能不能？你還是要考慮啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為那個時候都是同一個背景的教授……"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講，現在規定是不是這樣？幾個就可以同意？如果迴避6個，幾個同意就可以了？你告訴我，過半是幾個？現有兩個，過半是幾個？過半就是2，不是嗎？那就兩個。最極端的狀況，7個迴避，現有剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個還能夠作成嗎？"],["羅委員智強：剩幾個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然沒辦法，這根本不可能就作成決議。"],["羅委員智強：你不要跟我講不可能，數學上的不可能不等於法律上的不可能，法律在設計上，基本上就要考量各種狀況。最後同意剩幾人？照現有法律，你不要迴避我的問題。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：應該不可能去作成決議。"],["羅委員智強：你不要跟我講前提可不可以，我說如果照現有法律發生這個情況，即7個迴避的時候，剩幾個人？幾個人？你不敢回答，我直接告訴你！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：怎麼想像都不可能發生。"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫想像？我不管你想像，我就是跟你講發生了以後剩幾個人，法律規定、在法言法，你是法律人，在法言法！幾個人？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想完全不會發生的……"],["羅委員智強：1個人，到現在不敢回答，國小數學答不出來，跟吳思瑤一樣。我不跟你講極端值1個人，吳宗憲委員說可能只有三、四個決定，有錯嗎？有沒有可能？你跟我講1個不可能，是因為不會7個迴避，你說想像不可能，那想像1個迴避，總有可能吧？有沒有可能？那就是4個，吳宗憲委員說的對不對？他說的，對不對？所以我要告訴你，今天這個法律修正案司法院要謝謝翁曉玲委員，他就是要把這個漏洞補起來。我今天說實在話。我再講下一個問題……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：假設一定要修，有各種修法……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我要跟你講。今天翁曉玲委員的主張就是希望大法官能夠兼具多元性跟嚴謹性，所以要回到憲法本文所謂的15個員額來定義現有，對不對？翁曉玲委員的版本，是不是？你告訴我。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有各種訂法，像其他國家可以讓……"],["羅委員智強：這是事實問題，翁曉玲委員，是不是？"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，有很多人……"],["羅委員智強：對，還要跟我繞時間。沒有關係，我要跟你講，為什麼要把這麼無聊的國小問題去問堂堂的副秘書長？不只是因為吳思瑤的數學有問題，而是這個問題就產生下一個我要問的問題，你知道為什麼今天非得補這個洞嗎？因為你不補這個洞，因為有現有迴避的規定，就會產生一個叫做鼓勵總統亂提人的現象，你知道為什麼嗎？就像這一次，你也知道臺灣民眾八成反對廢除死刑，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：照外面的……"],["羅委員智強：民調嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們沒有做過調查。"],["羅委員智強：這次大法官就是搞出一個實質廢死判決，外界有很多疑慮，可是親愛的賴清德總統提7個大法官，就有6個主張廢除死刑。我要告訴你問題在哪裡，就算這7個都不過，照現在這種漏洞制度，只要剩下8個人，其中4個人就可以通過剛剛吳宗憲委員講的，大法官目前擁有的單一專業叫做民進黨的神奇寶貝，只要神奇寶貝打出來就可以幫民進黨洗地，因為只要現在的人就可以了。我告訴你，這些都是環環相扣的。","我再請教一下副秘書長，我聽不太懂。我講第二件事情，吳思瑤跟民進黨委員一直強調大法官不需要民意。我問一下，我有沒有民意基礎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：民意代表當然有民意基礎。"],["羅委員智強：當然，立法院有沒有民意基礎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：國會也是代表民意。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼大法官要立法院同意？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官……"],["羅委員智強：就是要有民意基礎的人同意，結果你還附和這些民進黨的立委，你跟他說大法官不用民意基礎，大法官審判的時候不需要考慮民意。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在審判的時候……"],["羅委員智強：憲法是人民決定的，為什麼不用民意基礎？這句話都講得出來，我真是佩服你！今天我要說句實在話，大法官如果不需要民意基礎，我跟秘書長建議一件事，很簡單，修憲嘛！大法官不需要立法院同意，也就是大法官乃民進黨之神奇寶貝，由總統決定任命之，就結束啦！不需要民意基礎，這麼幹就好了，幹嘛要民意基礎？","我再講下一個問題，請教副秘書長，民進黨一直講大法官現在的狀況是所謂的人民聲請釋憲案很多，請問目前政府機關提出的釋憲案，受理的比例是多少？政府機關的受理多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為他聲請的就不到百分之二。"],["羅委員智強：政府機關的受理多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們再來統計……"],["羅委員智強：百分之百！只要民進黨敢送的，你們哪一個敢不受理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們要看哪個政府機關。"],["羅委員智強：你們要去查，把資料告訴我。最近幾次民進黨送的東西有沒有受理？只要是行政機關送的，你受理了沒？民進黨政府送的受理了沒？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：統計後跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：還要統計給我，你不敢講，沒關係！人民的受理多少？人民的不受理九成，對不對？沒錯吧？我的數字有沒有錯？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是人民的量非常多……"],["羅委員智強：人家說你有進步，我承認你進步不錯，但人民的不受理就是九成，政府的就百分之百，政府的不受理是零！民進黨只要送出來，不受理就是零。今天民進黨在這邊講非常冠冕堂皇的三大論點，第一個，跟你保證不會有幾個大法官就把這個憲法判決做了，我剛剛以國小數學題告訴你，就是會發生。第二個，跟你講大法官不需要民意基礎，我覺得你就直接修憲，修憲不需要立法院同意，直接讓大法官變成民進黨親愛的神奇寶貝，球一丟出去就出來開始洗地。第三個、跟我說人民的案件多，現在人民的案件有九成不受理，民進黨送的馬上受理！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","下一位麻煩吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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