{"error":false,"id":["155846"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155846,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155846","日期":"2024-10-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-21T14:29:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-21T14:40:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f07fcc18b12699e834f6b87f55f7374071315d8d3eec934e27ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"14:29:35 - 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抱歉 樓下還在協商總預算那今天真的在立法院風火連天 有很多的戰場但我認為 重中之重當然就是 台灣是不是能夠捍衛我們的憲政法制憲法訴訟法 為修而修 為快而快讓立法權優於司法權這樣子的做法 實在是要三思要三百思 要三萬思啊"},{"start":40.461,"end":63.527,"text":"立委沒有這麼大自己推一堆違憲的法案害怕釋憲然後呢就說大法官是你民進黨開的如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法下一頁我們來說席次喔"},{"start":64.582,"end":69.946,"text":"違憲還是違憲維護憲法還是違反憲法應讀起來是一樣的違憲還是違憲但是結果大不同違憲還是違反憲法由我們司法法制委員會藍白6加1七位立委來決定合理嗎社會不需要對話嗎"},{"start":93.26,"end":107.933,"text":"不需要聽到這麼多法界專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的過去憲法訴訟法從立法到他第一次的修正都歷經了"},{"start":109.534,"end":114.215,"text":"公聽會的程序而現在聽到法界很多不同的聲音為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難如果不管那多元的意見只有七位藍白立委在這裡right here right now在司法法制委員會就決定了憲法訴訟法用法定原額來取代現有原額他未來的評議的決定要三分之二"},{"start":138.562,"end":161.778,"text":"只有七位藍白立委來決定這樣合理嗎?下一頁我們來看看早上我們論述的美國最高法院大法官是八位加上一位首席大法官共九位他們的規定跟台灣一樣三分之二參與評議二分之一同意"},{"start":163.12,"end":166.764,"text":"美國是9位大法官,台灣有15位喔!同樣的門檻,三分之二參與評議,二分之一同意沒有危及憲政,在美國沒有像台灣的國民黨、民眾黨在說的人數太少了,這是少數觀點!"},{"start":180.177,"end":195.616,"text":"美國沒有發生這樣的憲政爭議我以2015年美國的同婚法案為例最高法院大法官以5比4的投票結果就以那關鍵的一票認同美國同婚正是合法"},{"start":196.789,"end":210.921,"text":"美國的人口是台灣的14倍啊美國的大法官人數遠低於台灣憲法法庭的人數在美國沒有藍白立委這樣說少數觀點少數決定不合理所以要修要來癱瘓憲法法庭美國不會下一頁"},{"start":216.397,"end":241.675,"text":"德國大法官聯邦憲法德國的法院大法官有16名他還分兩個議院依據大法官的專業屬性他分為兩庭同樣兩庭16位除以二簡單的數學問題一庭是八個大法官八位大法官裡頭三分之二參與評議二分之一同意跟台灣的門檻都是一樣的"},{"start":242.876,"end":244.097,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）吳思瑤"},{"start":261.707,"end":273.955,"text":"德國的人口是臺灣的3.6倍他們的大法官人數一停只有8位就可以參與審理沒有人說德國的大法官會危及憲政"},{"start":275.357,"end":291.598,"text":"來回來我前頭所以民間已經在串聯了反對二修憲法訴訟法要求先進行大法官人事同意權再來討論憲法訴訟法為什麼民間的聲音藍白的委員不聽"},{"start":293.24,"end":309.015,"text":"把這些學者專家民團的主張帶到立法院司法法制委員會的公聽會一起來討論為什麼害怕。下一頁律師也發動了聯署先審人事案撤回限訴法"},{"start":310.865,"end":321.472,"text":"律師界．法律專業界其實以為不可的為什麼藍白就是要為修而修為快而快連個公聽會都害怕都阻擋所以大家一直說翁曉玲羅志強都說大法官決定的人數數額太少了會有單一觀點會少數來主導"},{"start":335.461,"end":357.68,"text":"那麼就讓大法官人事同意權趕快行使補回15位如果不行使人事同意權只剩下8位當然人數就更可能是單一觀點更可能是少數主導所以更需要趕快補齊大法官15名的員額同樣的為了避免單一觀點為了避免少數主導為了避免藍白的這種"},{"start":362.546,"end":367.029,"text":"強悍地在這裏強行通過就讓多元的觀點進到法制委員會先召開公聽會再討論修法下一頁數字在這裏數字會說話憲法法庭新制之後到現在112年98%是人民的申請案舊制的時候同樣110年同一年有95%都是人民的申請案如果"},{"start":390.626,"end":417.047,"text":"修法癱瘓了憲法法庭不合理的提高他的評議決定的門檻其實是人民的申請釋憲案被剝奪了政黨利益大於國家利益嗎藍白是這樣幹這樣搞的嗎在下一頁重中之重在這裡藍白所幻想的極端案例"},{"start":418.783,"end":435.562,"text":"並不存在過去不存在數十年來不存在我以憲法訴訟法2019完成新制所宣判48件大法官的裁定"},{"start":436.933,"end":436.953,"text":"為什麽（"},{"start":459.036,"end":481.815,"text":"王曉玲羅志強一直在說兩三個大法官就可以來操憲法的生死案例在哪裡過去沒有發生過48個宣判的大法官的釋憲案裡頭37案都是15名大法官全員參與換言之全員參與15位他的二分之一要過關是8位沒有兩位三位這件事"},{"start":486.687,"end":505.272,"text":"另外因為有10個案子是大法官要迴避 有11個案子迴避制度也是立委倡議的啊 相關的案子就要迴避啊 所以把事實說清楚講明白並沒有兩三個大法官就可以來左右憲法解釋的這種"},{"start":507.172,"end":527.364,"text":"極端的怪異的所謂少數觀點的並不存在從過去到現在都沒有但是唯一有可能的在哪裡下一頁就是現在如果在野黨不行使大法官的人事同意權放任著七個大法官的缺額在那裡前提是"},{"start":530.567,"end":551.802,"text":"藍白已經整個歸託得太好了不行使同意權讓大法官只剩下八位八位如果要扣除部分案件需要迴避那確實有可能三分之二平易二分之一可能會有進入一種一個案子也許五位就會一決"},{"start":553.223,"end":569.911,"text":"但這個前提是藍白拒絕審查大法官同意權藍白拒絕補足七位大法官前提在這裡如果極端案例會存在就是藍白的政治的軌跡"},{"start":572.103,"end":582.169,"text":"極端案例會發生只有藍白這種包藏禍心拒絕行使人事同意權也強行來修過憲法訴訟法"},{"start":583.854,"end":601.985,"text":"所以我今天在這裡再一次的說我非常遺憾我們的主張就是先審同意權補足大法官的缺額如果您對於現在送上來的七位名單有不同意的沒有關係透過審查專業對話直求對決你可以投下你的反對票"},{"start":607.745,"end":611.93,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案。．吳思瑤"},{"start":626.528,"end":627.108,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":893,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（14時29分）謝謝主席。抱歉！樓下還在協商總預算，今天在立法院真的峰火連天，有很多戰場，但我認為重中之重，當然就是臺灣是不是能夠捍衛憲政法治。憲法訴訟法為修而修，為快而快，讓立法權優於司法權，這樣的作法實在是要三思、要三百思、要三萬思！立委沒有這麼大，自己推一堆違憲的法案，害怕釋憲，就說大法官是民進黨開的，如果不違憲就不會怕釋憲，更不會需要像今天在野黨啟動了毀憲的修法。","我們來說席次，維憲還是違憲？維護憲法還是違反憲法？音讀起來是一樣的，維憲還是違憲？結果大不同。維憲還是違反憲法？由司法及法制委員會藍白6加1、7位立委來決定，合理嗎？社會不需要對話嗎？不需要聽到這麼多法界、專業界期期以為不可的討論嗎？這就是我今天一直在跟吳宗憲召委請求的，過去憲法訴訟法從立法到第一次的修正，都歷經了公聽會的程序，而現在聽到法界有很多不同的聲音，為什麼該開公聽會再來討論法案有這麼困難？如果不廣納多元的意見，只有7位藍白立委在這裡、right here、right now、在司法及法制委員會，就決定了憲法訴訟法用法定員額來取代現有員額、未來的評議決定要三分之二，只有7位藍、白立委來決定，這樣合理嗎？","我們來看看早上我所論述的，美國最高法院大法官是8位，加上1位首席大法官，共9位，他們的規定跟臺灣一樣，三分之二參與評議，二分之一同意。美國是9位大法官，臺灣有15位，同樣的門檻──三分之二參與評議，二分之一同意，沒有危及憲政，在美國沒有像臺灣的國民黨、民眾黨在說的人數太少了，這是少數觀點，美國沒有發生這樣的憲政爭議。","我以2015年美國的同婚法案為例，最高法院大法官以5比4的投票結果，就以那關鍵的一票認同美國同婚正式合法。美國的人口是臺灣的14倍，美國的大法官人數遠低於臺灣憲法法庭的人數，在美國沒有藍白立委這樣說：少數觀點、少數決定不合理，所以要修、要來癱瘓憲法法庭，美國不會！","再談到德國聯邦憲法，德國的法院大法官有16名，還分兩個議院，依據大法官的專業屬性分為兩庭，同樣兩庭，16位除以二，簡單的數學問題，一庭是8個大法官，8位大法官裡頭，三分之二參與評議、二分之一同意，跟臺灣的門檻都是一樣的，他們遠比臺灣人數低，可是沒有人會去挑戰大法官的專業，沒有人去挑戰他們是不是政黨的好朋友、影響了他們的憲政判斷認知。德國的人口是臺灣的3.6倍，他們的大法官人數一庭只有8位就可以參與審理，沒有人說德國的大法官會危及憲政。","所以民間已經在串聯了，反對二修憲法訴訟法，要求先進行大法官人事同意權，再來討論憲法訴訟法，為什麼民間的聲音藍白的委員不聽？把這些學者專家、民團的主張帶到立法院司法及法制委員會的公聽會一起來討論，為什麼害怕？律師也發動了連署，要求先審人事案、撤回憲訴法。律師界、法律專業界期期以為不可的，為什麼藍白就是要為修而修、為快而快，連個公聽會都害怕、都阻擋？","所以大家一直說，翁曉玲、羅智強都說，大法官決定的人數數額太少了，會有單一觀點，會少數來主導，那麼就讓大法官人事同意權趕快行使，補回15位。如果不行使人事同意權，只剩下8位，當然人數就更可能是單一觀點，更可能是少數主導，所以更需要趕快補齊大法官15名的員額。同樣地，為了避免單一觀點，為了避免少數主導，為了避免藍白這種強悍地在這裡強行通過，就讓多元的觀點進到司法及法制委員會，先召開公聽會，再討論修法。","數字在這裡，數字會說話。憲法法庭新制實施之後到現在，112年有98%是人民的聲請案，舊制的時候，同樣110年同一年，有95%都是人民的聲請案。如果修法癱瘓了憲法法庭，不合理地提高它的評議決定門檻，其實是人民聲請釋憲案的權利被剝奪了。政黨利益大於國家利益嗎？藍白是這樣幹、這樣搞的嗎？","重中之重在這裡。藍白所幻想的極端案例並不存在，過去不存在，數十年來不存在，我以憲法訴訟法2019年完成新制所宣判的48件大法官裁定為例，48案裡頭，有47案參與審議的大法官都高於10位，10位的二分之一的議決是至少要6位，所以沒有兩、三位少數觀點就來解釋憲法的這種極端案例，哪裡有存在過？沒有任何一個案例！為什麼翁曉玲、羅智強一直在說兩、三個大法官就可以來操憲法的生死，案例在哪裡？過去沒有發生過，48個宣判的大法官釋憲案裡頭，37案都是15名大法官全員參與，換言之，全員參與15位，它的二分之一要過關是8位，沒有兩位、三位這件事。另外，因為有11個案子是大法官要迴避，迴避制度也是立委倡議的，相關的案子就要迴避。所以把事實說清楚、講明白，並沒有兩、三個大法官就可以來左右憲法解釋，這種極端的、怪異的所謂少數觀點主導並不存在，從過去到現在都沒有，但是唯一有可能的在哪裡？就是現在！如果在野黨不行使大法官的人事同意權，放任著7個大法官的缺額在那裡，前提是藍、白已經整套想好，不行使同意權讓大法官只剩下8位，如果要扣除部分案件需要迴避，確實有可能三分之二評議，二分之一可能就會有1個案子也許5位就會議決。但這個前提是，藍、白拒絕審查大法官同意權，藍、白拒絕補足7位大法官，前提在這裡，如果極端案例會存在，就是藍白的政治詭計，極端案例會發生，只有藍、白這種包藏禍心拒絕行使人事同意權，也強行修過憲法訴訟法。","所以我今天在這裡再一次地說，我非常遺憾，我們的主張就是先審同意權補足大法官的缺額，如果你們對於現在送上來的7位名單有不同意的沒有關係，透過審查、專業對話直球對決，你可以投下你的反對票，可以再提名找出你們認為更優秀、更適任的人都可以。但前提是如果國會連進入大法官人事同意權都不行使，該做的事不做，現在是搶修、急修憲法訴訟法要閹割大法官、架空大法官，癱瘓憲法法庭，這才是臺灣最大的憲政危機，這是臺灣憲政法治國家最根本的一個超級核子炸彈。翁曉玲委員，你要按下這個發射鍵嗎？"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","傅崐萁","蔡易餘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等\n16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}