{"error":false,"id":["155858"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155858,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155858","日期":"2024-10-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-21T15:23:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-21T15:36:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e70ac4aba65812f0cdab4d3834e7febdd42df3203622d4e3c6fec705aa549b01bfcdbd1d32fe68635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"15:23:51 - 15:36:36","會議時間":"2024-10-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.86096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.15971875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.46221875,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.453468750000003,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.93659375,"end":40.446593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.446593750000005,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.92721875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.92909375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.532218750000006,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.99096875000001,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.33596875,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.01909375000001,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.82471875,"end":78.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.65159375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.88346875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.67159375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.20721875000001,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.16034375000001,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.57221875,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.55846875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.58784375,"end":112.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.02596875,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.50659375000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.85221875,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.13471875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.51409375,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":124.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.36596875000001,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.92596875,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.97659375,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.06096875,"end":159.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.29721875,"end":159.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.53346875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.64221875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.72159375,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.82221875000002,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.47159375,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.19284375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.73096875000002,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.95409375,"end":196.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.37971875000002,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.61034375000003,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.28471875000002,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.47846875000002,"end":214.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.55846875,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.15721875000003,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.31721875000002,"end":223.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.36346875,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.05096875,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.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"end":224.909,"text":"地方才有辦法依據大概我明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助我的預算應該怎樣妥適的來編啊其實過度集權好不好很多民眾也都在講說那前瞻一次要花多少錢8千多億8千4百億8千多億一次就通過不過分很多年就是了分很多年編了國防預算"},{"start":226.206,"end":245.561,"text":"沒幾分的啪就幾千億幾千這樣出去了為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方讓地方好好來施政我們說人民當家做主你錢到地方,地方有議會,議會有眼睛會盯啊"},{"start":247.187,"end":268.012,"text":"那地方它實際需要多少?這你錢充裕一點來,它就有辦法好好來推動嘛。本席在上一次的這個會議當中,我當召委的時候,我請22縣市全部首長不分藍綠什麼的,全部通通都來。"},{"start":269.738,"end":297.666,"text":"我是問他那如果有需要的你就大聲講出來請舉手不需要的你就可以先離開結果你知道22縣市全部都留下來表示他們是重視這個事他們是需要的所以我們希望說中央過度集權這是民眾不樂意看到的"},{"start":298.775,"end":326.729,"text":"因為你再讓我回來講我們是民主國家民主國家就應該讓大家更多的監督的機制如果你都說不要不要不要你們中央要全部一把抓那你幹嘛還要現在目前每年有多少給地方公視裡面有嘛公視委員的意思是說現在有多少對"},{"start":328.943,"end":332.627,"text":"給地方的部分,去年是吧?全部給地方的是這樣,如果加進用114年度的來計算的話,就是1.1兆151億給地方嗎?給地方"},{"start":345.842,"end":372.97,"text":"就是說如果你不給地方全部都由中央來決定的話那是誰說了算?誰來決定?那個就是按照公式去分配的有公式嗎?有公式公式分配所以就是25年來這個公式都沒有修改過嘛所以每個地方現在都改變了嘛像我們以前直轄市、台北市啊後來高雄啊現在六都啊所以六都選出來的這些民意代表"},{"start":373.939,"end":394.137,"text":"每個上來都是大聲疾呼啊為地方來爭取啊如果大家覺得不妥的請覺得不需要的簽個名嘛你可以聲明出來啊你看他回去能不能交代我們來自地方我來立法院我不為地方爭取那我當立委幹嘛"},{"start":395.692,"end":418.409,"text":"所以這個邏輯我也請主席你可以問一下如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助他可以上來聲明他就先離開啊他就不需要在這邊講話啦 對不對我們要爭取的是給需要的人地方需要你就大聲疾呼來講的確有這些困難啊我們面對的很多"},{"start":420.206,"end":433.52,"text":"醫療的部分應該要增加的,消防車以及地方學校的教育等等,我們是需要的,還有我們有一些道路建設等等,對民眾的需求。"},{"start":435.068,"end":458.1,"text":"需要中央,更多中央,其實你中央你就把這個制度制定好,就讓它很順利的推展下去嘛。我跟委員報告,其實我是覺得我們對財化法就是兩個堅固,一個是地方的需求,一個是中央的財政認証,都要顧慮到,這是第一個。"},{"start":458.9,"end":486.503,"text":"第二個其實我們財政部不排斥說要釋出財源因為我們的修法六個原則之中其中一個就是擴大釋出規模所以擴大釋出規模只是說我們希望就是說還能夠調劑營需就是說能夠你釋出去了能夠就是資源比較差的那就多給他也就是說能夠讓他立足點能夠平衡"},{"start":487.003,"end":506.172,"text":"所以我們的六大的原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源所以中央沒有排斥說要釋出財源但是要合理啦要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求啦所以像目前如果說以國民黨版如果釋出4千多億真的中央就很多事情都不能做"},{"start":508.393,"end":521.564,"text":"現在的情況就是可能有一些第一次來當立委的他比較不曉得說立法院其實就是合意制就在你有很多的版本你有很多意見都可以提出來大家可以協調嘛"},{"start":523.53,"end":545.741,"text":"當然可以協調,但是我是說如果啦所以為什麼要草野協商?就是大家來聽聽看,大家的意見也許你沒有辦法100分每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿可是多少嘛?80分也可以,70分也可以我倒是有一個想法就是說因為我們有一個六大的修法原則,假定"},{"start":546.721,"end":562.375,"text":"用這個六大原則來檢視各版本如果可以的話就慢慢就可以聚焦然後慢慢的就是說你釋出的規模大概釋出多少那你水平分配應該用什麼指標來做分配最好"},{"start":563.075,"end":589.493,"text":"如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能啦因為現在我跟委員報告就是說現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢注重就是錢的垂直分配啦啊這樣子的話就會導致一個問題就是說有錢的會更有錢然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢就是說貧則越貧然後富者越貧"},{"start":593.415,"end":593.676,"text":"財政部財政部時間"},{"start":616.214,"end":643.26,"text":"時間已經給了,等很久了我希望說市長剛剛講的六大原則資料給大家大家多多來研究一下如果說真的很好我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的那麼多版本大家幹嘛就是希望地方增加地方的財政錢可以多一點給地方"},{"start":643.98,"end":647.326,"text":"大概就這樣子而已所以不見得說要5000多億沒有5000多億3000多億大家談一談"},{"start":651.583,"end":672.558,"text":"只要有幫助。其實我是覺得也是這樣,如果是說中央跟地方,大家可以各讓一步,然後就是一開始不要釋出那麼多規模會影響到中央的施政的話,其實都比較好處理。現在比例中央跟地方大概多少?"},{"start":674.202,"end":702.58,"text":"現在的比例目前是這樣子62比38但是支出中央是64那地方是36換句話說中央的雖然是62但是我們的支出是64這也是為什麼這幾年我們財政中央的都是赤字那地方的這幾年都是雲雨到去年"},{"start":703.28,"end":719.219,"text":"那麼他已經達到648億的原因在這裡因為中國不斷的釋出那最後就是因為新北市人口最多是千萬拜託人均的概念讓新北市多一點的資源好做事拜託謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":722.901,"end":746.754,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員那我覺得次長講得很好啊就趕快提出財政部的版本你們都有覆案了嘛我們已經給你們三個月又有兩個月啦三個月又一個月啦六月份做的決議財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛你們既然有六大指標就趕快按照指標提出來啊那照理剛剛說64比36那國民黨希望6比4也只有差4%因為很接近啊"},{"start":749.168,"end":764.816,"text":"六十四比三是收入嘛,我們說的是支出,支出是六十四比三十六嘛,中央地方嘛,對不對?那我們要變成六比四只有4%的差距而已啊,只是差別在於地方政府要提出計畫讓你們審,還是由地方政府自己決定計畫嘛,大概差別是在這裡嘛。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（15時23分）謝謝主席，各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請阮次長？"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：阮次長，你好。我想立法院就是討論的地方，不同的意見多多來講。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["羅委員明才：特別是這次的召委，主席的表現可圈可點，因為慢慢的讓大家講到飽，講到內心的話充分的表達。不過我大概從幾十年前聽到現在，雖然版本很多，剛剛因為有其他同仁也講到我的版本，雖然有那麼多的、二十幾個版本，其實都有一個最重要的宗旨啦，就是希望中央不要過度集錢、集權，其實就是這個道理啦。剛剛有人講到本席的提案大概可能會增加數百億，有人的提案是幾千億，通通都有，本席以為成功不必在我，也不堅持一定要用我的案子，只要能過，中央就多一點資源給地方，因為我們都是區域選出來的，最重要的就是希望多一點資源讓地方好好來做事傳譬如說我們過去是臺北縣，現在升格變成新北市，升格之前跟之後，你那裡有沒有數據，我們大概的統籌分配稅款從臺北縣到現在有增加，大概是每年增加多少？因為本席每次在這裡都大聲疾呼，要以人均的概念來思考這個問題，因為人生而平等嘛，這是一個最基本的精神，所以垂直分配的時候，這個地方就應該要把它訂定下來……"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["羅委員明才：這樣才有辦法好好來談事情嘛，我們希望以這樣的精神，但是你說全部用這樣的一個精神嗎，也不是啊，就好像我們最近即將要審查的當沖降稅，其實那個也是我提的，我是提延長5年嘛，金管會彭主委也覺得5年比較恰當……"],["阮次長清華：後來改3年。"],["羅委員明才：他的原因是希望未來整個亞洲的資產管理中心，法規如果過度的變動，外資就不敢進來嘛，今天一進來，3年一下就滿了，下次又要面臨修法的問題，穩定性不夠，所以當然長一點比較好。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["羅委員明才：所以今天我們討論這個財劃法，最大的一個宗旨就是把遊戲規則訂出來，地方才有辦法，依據自己明年大概可以獲得中央多少的補助，才知道預算應該怎樣妥適的來編啦，其實過度集權好不好？很多民眾也都在講，前瞻一次要花多少錢？八千多億……"],["阮次長清華：8,400億。"],["羅委員明才：八千多億一次就通過。"],["阮次長清華：不過它分多年就是了，分很多年編。"],["羅委員明才：國防預算沒幾分鐘就「啪」的幾千億、幾千億這樣出去了，為什麼不把這些多的資源放在地方，讓地方好好來施政？我們說人民當家作主，錢到地方，地方有議會，議會有眼睛會盯啊，地方實際需要多少，錢充裕一點來，他就有辦法好好來推動嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是，所以……"],["羅委員明才：本席在上一次的會議當中，我當召委的時候，我請22縣市的全部首長，不分藍綠什麼的，全部通通都來，我就問他們，如果有需要的就大聲講出來，請舉手，不需要的就可以先離開，結果22縣市全部都留下來啊，表示他們是重視這個事，他們是需要的，所以我們認為中央過度集錢、過度集權，這是民眾不樂意看到的。你再拉回來講，我們是民主國家，民主國家就應該讓大家有更多的監督機制，如果你都說不要、不要、不要，你們中央要全部一把抓，那你幹嘛還要，．現在每年有多少給地方？公式裡面有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：公式？委員的意思是說現在有多少？"],["羅委員明才：對，給地方的部分，去年。"],["阮次長清華：給地方的，是吧？"],["羅委員明才：對，去年是給……"],["阮次長清華：全部給地方的是這樣，如果用114年度的來計算的話，就是1兆151億。"],["羅委員明才：給地方嗎？"],["阮次長清華：給地方，給地方。"],["羅委員明才：好，那就是說，如果你不給地方，全部都由中央來決定的話，是誰說了算？誰來決定？"],["阮次長清華：那個就是按照公式去分配的。"],["羅委員明才：有公式嘛？"],["阮次長清華：依公式分配。"],["羅委員明才：25年來這個公式都沒有修改過，但是每個地方現在都改變了嘛！像我們以前直轄市就臺北市，後來高雄，現在六都啊！所以六都選出來的這些民意代表，每個上來都是大聲疾呼，為地方來爭取啊！如果大家覺得不妥的，請覺得不需要的簽個名，你可以聲明出來啊！你看他回去能不能交代，我們來自地方，我來立法院，我不為地方爭取，我當立委幹嘛！所以這個邏輯。我也請主席可以問一下，如果真的不希望中央統籌稅款的補助，他可以上來聲明，他就先離開，他就不需要在這邊講話了，對不對？我們要爭取的是給需要的人，地方需要，你就大聲疾呼的確有這些困難啊！我們面對的，很多醫療的部分應該要增加的，消防車以及地方學校的教育等等，我們是需要的，我們還有一些道路建設等等，是民眾的需求，所以需要中央給更多資源。其實你中央就把這個制度制定好，讓它很順利的推展下去嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，其實我是覺得我們對財劃法就是兩個兼顧，一個是地方的需求，一個是中央的財政韌性，都要顧慮到，這是第一個。第二個，其實我們財政部不排斥要釋出財源，因為我們修法的六個原則之中，其中一個就是擴大釋出規模，所以擴大釋出規模，只是我們希望還能夠調劑盈虛，就是說你釋出去的，資源比較差的就多給它，也就是說讓它的立足點能夠平衡。我們的六大原則當中就包括擴大釋出財源，所以中央沒有排斥釋出財源，但是要合理，要能夠兼顧地方跟中央的需求……"],["羅委員明才：是，沒錯。"],["阮次長清華：所以像目前以國民黨版，如果釋出四千多億元，真的中央就很多事情都不能做，等於是說……"],["羅委員明才：不是，現在的情況可能有一些第一次來當立委的，他比較不曉得立法院其實就是合議制，就算你有很多的版本、很多意見，都可以提出來，大家可以協調嘛！"],["阮次長清華：當然可以協調，但是我是說如果啦！"],["羅委員明才：所以為什麼要朝野協商，就是大家來聽聽看大家的意見，也許你沒有辦法100分，每個人都沒有辦法爭取到滿，可是多少嘛！80分也可以，70分也可以。"],["阮次長清華：我倒是有一個想法，因為我們有一個六大修法原則，假定用這個六大原則來檢視各版本，如果可以的話就可以慢慢聚焦，然後慢慢的就是你釋出的規模大概釋出多少，你水平分配應該用什麼指標來分配最好，如果用這六大原則來檢視各版本的話，也許就比較容易有聚焦的可能，因為現在……"],["羅委員明才：是，沒錯。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，現在很多版本都只注重什麼呢？注重錢的垂直分配，這樣子的話就會導致一個問題，就是有錢的會更有錢，然後沒有錢的會更沒有錢，就是貧者越貧，富者越富。"],["羅委員明才：其實我覺得你講的有一些道理，比如在這些那麼多的版本裡面，如果財政部有更好的方式，財政部的版本趕快拿出來，我們就會跟著你的版本來凝聚共識。我覺得這個也很好，其實在上個會期的時候，我們一直給財政部時間，時間已經給了，等很久了。"],["阮次長清華：是，這個我們……"],["羅委員明才：我希望次長剛剛講的六大原則，你的資料給大家，大家多多來研究一下，如果說真的很好，我也不見得會堅持一定要通過我的版本啊！"],["阮次長清華：我是覺得這個……"],["羅委員明才：但是我覺得共同的精神是一致的，那麼多版本，大家幹嘛！就是希望增加地方的財政，錢可以多一點給地方，大概就是這樣子而已。"],["阮次長清華：對，當然，我……"],["羅委員明才：所以不見得說要五千多億，沒有五千多億，三千多億大家談一談，只要有幫助，我想地方不滿意，但也是可以接受啊！"],["阮次長清華：其實我是覺得也是這樣，如果中央跟地方大家可以各讓一步，然後一開始不要釋出那麼多規模，會影響到中央施政的話，其實都比較好處理。"],["羅委員明才：是，現在中央跟地方大概是多少比例？"],["阮次長清華：什麼？"],["羅委員明才：現在的比例。"],["阮次長清華：比例，剛才我特別跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：75、25？"],["阮次長清華：目前是這樣子，62比38，但是支出，中央是64，地方是36，換句話說中央雖然是62，但是我們的支出是64，這也是為什麼這幾年我們中央都是赤字，地方這幾年都是盈餘，到去年盈餘已經達到648億元的原因在這裡，因為中央不斷的釋出去。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。最後就是因為新北市人口最多，千萬拜託，人均的概念，讓新北市多一點的資源，好做事，拜託謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。我覺得次長講得很好，就趕快提出財政部的版本，你們都有腹案了嘛！我們已經給你們3個月又1個月了，6月份做的決議，財委會有做一個決議說要提出版本嘛！你們既然有六大指標，就趕快按照指標提出來，照你剛剛說64比36，國民黨希望6比4，也只有差4%，因為很接近啊！62比38是收入，我們說的是支出，支出是64比36，中央、地方，對不對？那我們要變成6比4，只有4%的差距而已啊！只是差別在於地方政府要提出計畫讓你們審，還是由地方政府自己決定計畫，大概差別是在這裡吧！","接著請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}