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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.22409375,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.83721875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.891593750000002,"end":28.988468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.309093750000002,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.612218750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.81721875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.664718750000006,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.477843750000005,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.532218750000006,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.42659375,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.23159375,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.15909375000001,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.10346875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.03159375,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.76534375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.31721875000001,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.16471875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.63971875,"end":124.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.50096875000001,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.86346875000001,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.69846875000002,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.16659375,"end":139.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.31284375,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.55284375000002,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.66221875000002,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.86034375,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.10034375,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.88909375,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.17159375,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.25909375,"end":160.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.96784375000001,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.87409375000001,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.18596875,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.49721875,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.88096875000002,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.44971875000002,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.07784375,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.47346875000002,"end":215.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.47659375,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.26721875,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.40971875000002,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.26596875,"end":225.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.44721875000002,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.13471875000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.80909375000002,"end":234.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.15034375000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.46221875,"end":238.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.01471875000001,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.90784375,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.32346875,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.08659375,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.70221875000004,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.45721875000004,"end":270.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.45284375,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.97159375,"end":282.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.15971875,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.28596875,"end":285.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.55159375,"end":287.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.77909375,"end":291.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.45784375,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.47034375000004,"end":295.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.98471875,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.49096875000004,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.29221875,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.37659375000004,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.55346875000004,"end":303.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.86534375,"end":304.54034375000003},{"speake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對不對?統計分配稅款是你們分配的補助收入也是你們分配的台北市就861億啊你高雄市明年就達到1200多億啊"},{"start":571.346,"end":587.913,"text":"自水預算台北市184億前瞻台北市自水預算184億高雄1200億這是前瞻的自水預算114年中央補助的收入台北市861億高雄市又1200多億是怎樣啦"},{"start":594.045,"end":598.667,"text":"當我們台北市當世海嗎?所以這就是為什麼我們收財劃分法為什麼如此迫切錢都轉在你們手上你愛給誰就給誰你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點"},{"start":608.188,"end":634.383,"text":"這就是為什麼要修財劃法所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊行政院不願意嘛啊主計處反正放在手裡面啊噢這個是是是跟我顏色一樣啊我比較喜歡他補助就多一點然後這個我不喜歡他我就少一些我還沒有去跟你去比桃園跟台中勒是不是"},{"start":636.626,"end":658.505,"text":"這些數字不是只有114年從之前我剛才講這些數字連從111年開始你們就不公平了一直不公平到現在然後每天對外講說我的補助很多大家不要吵我會給你們糖吃那為什麼有人吃的多有人吃的少呢"},{"start":659.417,"end":671.982,"text":"你也沒有辦法告訴我啊為什麼114年他們的差距高雄跟台北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢?主席長我知道你剛剛來啊我現在能把這個理由說因為主席長的關係嗎?其實我也不認為是你的關係啦那是賴總統的關係嗎?"},{"start":681.812,"end":700.128,"text":"所以在這邊第一個我要特別的幫我們其他的縣市包括我們台北市你的那個補助款也好或者是我們益住財源的稅數比例也好台北市長期的敬佩莫做對台北市不公平"},{"start":701.209,"end":719.755,"text":"第2個,財化法的修正有它的正當性及必要性。否則的話,我們就年復一年的發生這樣的狀況啊,是不是?然後你們挨補助誰就補助誰,最後其結果就是這樣的不平均,這樣的不公平啦。"},{"start":720.515,"end":736.262,"text":"好不好甚至我覺得114年我剛講我們今天才划法修正就算我們這個會期完全修正114年度還是你們還是手在那個錢在你們手上但是拜託你們不要這樣的分配不均謝謝好謝謝王洪威委員謝謝主席長那個因為我們現在是時間是16點40"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1337,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（16時28分）謝謝召委，召委辛苦了，我先請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：請教一下主計長，因為您長期都在主計處，所以對預算執行非常的清楚，我想請問一下，我們現在來討論財劃法的修正，會不會造成明年度預算執行的問題？跟明年的預算執行有沒有相關？我們現在討論財劃法的修正跟明年度的預算執行有沒有相關？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要看它什麼時候生效、執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，但是基本上你們的預算已經通過了嘛，對不對？也送到立法院了，所以今天我們即便是這個會期完成財劃法的修正，會影響到明年度嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果說你要用114年度決算的時機去算的話，那就會有影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我就說明年度的執行。"],["陳主計長淑姿：明年度的執行原則上是不會啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：不會嘛，對不對？明年度執行預算不會嘛，最快最快也是影響到115年度，對不對？這個部分我們必須釐清，因為今天早上一大堆之前也沒有在關心財劃法，可能預算也看不懂的委員，在這邊東講西講，好像今天財劃法的修正或通過，立刻影響114年度，我覺得這是有很大的謬誤。","好，我想請教一下，今天早上我也特別提到，我們賴總統說，明年度也就是114年度，我們的補助款會增加八百多億。那麼我想請問一下，以六都來說，整個補助款，哪一個縣市補助的金額最多？好，你們現在才在做功課，來，我們可以看一下預算數，以中央補助來看，臺北市是六都最少的那一個部分，可以看到除了統籌分配稅款之外，很重要的就是來自於中央的補助款，以114年度的預算案來說，臺北是163億，然後高雄是708億，新北是603億，桃園是502億，臺中是530億，臺南是515億，所以從這邊非常明顯可以看到，在補助收入的部分，即使明年度說中央補助會增加很多很多，沒有問題，但是可以看到光是在補助收入的部分，臺北市仍然是吊車尾，是最後一名，而且如果我們看統籌款加補助款，倒數第二的那個項目，就是D等於B加C的部分，可以看到高雄市統籌加補助款明年的金額高達1,229億元，而臺北市的部分呢？861.05億，這中間差了370億元。我要特別講，中央的補助收入，臺北市是六都中最少的，我今天早上就特別講到，為什麼要修財劃法？因為不修財劃法，我們的中央掌握了75%的財源，然後說：「沒有問題，我是老大哥，我來補助各縣市。」可是當你在補助的時候，這就出現了不患寡而患不均的問題，不平均嘛，或者是有些縣市永遠拿得很多。來，我們再來看下一頁，我剛剛講的是114年度，如果我們看各年度高雄市跟臺北市的相比，你就會覺得不可思議，在挹注財源上，以中央的補助款來說，到了114年，臺北市跟高雄市的補助款差了545億，但是之前包含111年度、112年度、113年度，111年度和112年度都是兩百多億，但是到了113年，就擴大成384億，到了114年又擴大成545億，我想請問一下，明年發生什麼樣的事情？明年到底發生什麼樣的事情，讓臺北市跟高雄市之間的差距越來越高、越來越多？主計長，你們對外說補助會增加很多，但是為什麼臺北市跟高雄市差距這麼多？什麼道理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，其實臺北市如果說用統籌分配稅款和一般性補助，臺北市114年得到845億，高雄市得到697億，但是你不能以補助收入占歲出的規模比例來分配，因為像臺北市的歲出規模很大，相對地一般補助下面的比例就會減少，所以以總額來看，最多的是臺北市啊。然後高雄市……"],["王委員鴻薇：總額最多怎麼會是臺北市？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果114年……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌加補助款，我剛才告訴你啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：高雄高達一千兩百多億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，那是加計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們臺北市861億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，有三種補助嘛，一種是統籌分配稅，一種……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌分配稅是他自己的自有財源嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。再來是一般性補助，再來就是計畫型，那計畫型是各部會看計畫的可行性去核定，這個並不是，它是屬於競爭型的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以高雄市的可行性就比較高，臺北市可行性就比較低嗎？你現在是要告訴我這些嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這我沒辦法告訴你，因為這……"],["王委員鴻薇：你沒辦法告訴我，對啊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是各部會用競爭型去核定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們就不公平啊！你怎麼告訴我呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是各部會核定的，這不是我們核定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我告訴你的是，這個都有數字、有真相。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它還有計畫型的，還有按財力去分配，譬如說計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：在排序的部分……"],["陳主計長淑姿：財力第一的話，可能只補助百分之多少，計畫型補助的比例也是不一樣的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可以告訴我，臺北市的財務能力比高雄市高。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那請問一下，高雄市沒有比桃園高嗎？高雄市沒有比臺中高嗎？可是高雄永遠永遠永遠，不管在比例上，都是名列前茅，不是第一，就是第二，在補助金額上，永遠是第一或第二。因為我是臺北市的立委，我當然要幫我們臺北市講話，差那麼多嘛。我請問你，為什麼111年差了257億，114年差到545億？發生什麼事情？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這一個主要是在計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：到底發生什麼事情？我們說財政能力，臺北市財政能力確實是比較高，那請問一下，為什麼差到將近一倍之多呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我主要是……"],["王委員鴻薇：是看蔣萬安不順眼嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個差別主要在計畫型……"],["王委員鴻薇：還是看陳其邁特別順眼呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為一般性的補助明明是臺北市比高雄市還要多，統籌分配稅和一般性補助兩個彙整起來，臺北市比高雄市還要多……"],["王委員鴻薇：你怎麼睜眼說瞎話？來，回到臺北市六都最少的部分，我們要給你看B加C啊，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為你自己……"],["王委員鴻薇：統籌分配稅款是你們分配的，補助收入也是你們分配的，臺北市就861億啊，高雄市明年就達到一千兩百多億。再說治水預算，臺北市184億，在前瞻特別預算裡，臺北市治水預算184億，高雄1,200億，這是前瞻的治水預算。114年中央補助的收入，臺北市861億，高雄市也有一千兩百多億，是怎樣啦？把我們臺北市當「細漢」嗎？所以這就是為什麼我們修財劃法如此迫切，錢都攥在你們手上，你要給誰就給誰，你喜歡給誰多一點就多一點，這就是為什麼要修財劃法。所以這就是為什麼財政部遲遲不願意提出版本啊！行政院不願意嘛！主計處反正放在手裡面啊！這個是跟我顏色一樣的，我比較喜歡他，補助就多一點，然後這個我不喜歡他，我就少一些。我還沒有跟你去比桃園跟臺中咧，是不是？這些數字不是只有114年，我剛才講的這些數字，連從111年開始你們就不公平了，一直不公平到現在，然後每天對外說：「我的補助很多，大家不要吵，我會給你們糖吃。」那為什麼有人吃得多，有人吃得少呢？你有沒有辦法告訴我，為什麼114年高雄跟臺北的差距可以增加到一倍之多呢？主計長，我知道你剛剛來，我先把這個理由說出來，是因為主計長的關係嗎？其實我也不認為是你的關係啦，那是賴總統的關係嗎？所以在這邊，第一個，我要特別幫我們其他的縣市，包含我們臺北市，你的那個補助款也好，或者是我們挹注財源的稅收比例也好，臺北市長期敬陪末座，對臺北市不公平。","第二個，財劃法的修正有它的正當性及必要性，否則的話，我們就年復一年地發生這樣的狀況，是不是？然後你們愛補助誰就補助誰，最後其結果就是這樣的不平均，這樣不公平啦，好不好？甚至我覺得，就像我剛剛講的，今天財劃法修正，就算我們這個會期完成修正，114年度錢還是在你們手上，但是拜託你們不要這樣分配不均。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員。謝謝主計長。","現在的時間是16時40分，下面還有好多委員，剛剛有委員提出要第二輪發言，現在我們有兩位委員，徵求在場委員同意，我們就延長開會，繼續開會，延長開會時間，讓大家講完，有沒有意見？沒有意見。好，那我們就延長開會時間，等一下要準備便當，說不定還要準備消夜。","請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}