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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」2案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅廷瑋等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n【21日廣泛討論，10月21日、23日及24日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.652843750000002,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.715343750000002,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.660343750000003,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.84971875,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.59596875,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.08096875,"end":32.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.751593750000005,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.95721875,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.28159375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.58909375,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.884093750000005,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.469718750000006,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.27971875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.907843750000005,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.17659375000001,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.84721875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.90596875,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.38659375,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":123.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.14659375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.02409375,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.62284375,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.43221875,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.47846875000002,"end":138.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.14846875,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.37596875,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.44346875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.34909375,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.20534375,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.02346875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.38471875000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.59909375,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.83471875,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.36034375000003,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.18721875,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.89971875,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.87409375000001,"end":224.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.26159375,"end":228.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.29909375000003,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.41284375,"end":238.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.45784375000002,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.62221875,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.84534375,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.22909375,"end":245.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.62971875000002,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.55346875,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.08034375000003,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.41784375,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.99096875000004,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.54784375,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.15909375,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.42471875,"end":263.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.16284375000004,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.54659375,"end":267.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.17909375,"end":270.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.31346875,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.15971875,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.32846875,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.15284375000005,"end":309.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.82221875000005,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.34096875,"end":313.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":113.989,"end":131.634,"text":"所以目前的指甲式跟縣市不一樣所以我們有一個修法原則就是說將來指甲式跟縣市希望能夠分配一致化以這個原則來講,所以市長既然你們有你的這個原則所以我就問你嘛"},{"start":133.744,"end":154.983,"text":"財政部,你們有沒有打算提出我們行政院、我們院版的這個財政收支劃分法?現在正在這個跟地方政府,因為這個是涉及到地方政府的財源嘛,所以我們現在就是一直在跟地方政府在開會、在研商。還在開會、還在研商,那你有沒有打算這麼做?"},{"start":156.865,"end":174.88,"text":"現在是這樣,我們是希望就是一套化嘛,就是指甲式跟縣市就一套化但是因為現在各縣市政府現在提的那個版本很多,那麼指標也很多,有80個那80個那我們現在開會一直一直給他收斂一直收斂,那現在已經收斂到已經比較小的範圍了啦"},{"start":176.221,"end":196.814,"text":"就是剩下比如說像這個權重的問題或者是說哪一些還有像防治污染要不要進去或者是說節省的這個稅出那部分要不要進去剩下這幾項所以我們會繼續努力來看看就是說水平這部分盡量能夠有那個所以也就是說我們會提出願板嘛對不對"},{"start":198.735,"end":227.955,"text":"目前我們來努力先把大家有一個共識我個人是這樣認為啦我是認為從中央地方我們這個預算的分配四個字啦知識體大既然知識體大我們要跟地方跟社會大眾說明這件事情就像國土計畫法一樣啊也是啊"},{"start":230.008,"end":240.314,"text":"國土計劃法營商幾十年下來,到現在就是在農地保護跟土地開發的這個之間有很多"},{"start":241.707,"end":244.448,"text":"對,我們希望是越修越好啦。"},{"start":271.377,"end":299.338,"text":"那所以我們是希望就是說我們財劃法因為涉及到中央跟地方的財源劃分嘛所以我們是希望能夠長治久安啦不要說一天到晚在炒這個問題所以我希望就是說相關的指標要非常的公平合理啦我們是希望這樣包括垂直的、包括水平的、包括事權的劃分都能夠講得更清楚大家可以接受那這樣子的話就比較好處理"},{"start":300.899,"end":317.265,"text":"目前現在是這樣,各縣市我們發現就是說,大家的距離還很大啦,還蠻大的啦,所以我們這一部分要耐心地慢慢地...要何止大,往同一個政黨,除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯,欸我記得!"},{"start":319.547,"end":332.143,"text":"國民黨版本大概就是應該高達五千八百億左右嘛就是要從我們中央市民都掏出來的齁但是我怎麼我怎麼那個"},{"start":336.312,"end":353.25,"text":"上午螢幕上看到的在跟你們對話他們好像降到3200億有這回事嗎?事實上我跟委員報告就是他後來降到雖然是3200億但事實上他是漏掉一個年久稅啦所以我們重新算了是4080啦"},{"start":354.762,"end":380.775,"text":"所以照他的說法是多少?4080那這個案子我認為當然啦不管是在野黨啦哪一黨都一樣我們尊重但是你要把這個可不可行要跟他們溝通不是這樣嗎?尤其我們這麼多預算到地方去這當然也是好喔地方自治嘛但是你相對"},{"start":381.835,"end":388.376,"text":"他們的一些法令也要跟著去做搭配、調整嘛。比如說地方制度法。"},{"start":389.905,"end":417.685,"text":"對預算、責任、配置是怎麼樣?他們也要開始去動起來不是這樣嗎?另外很重要一點就是說這樣出去以後對中央的施政的影響這部分也一定要好好去思考啦因為4000多億下出去以後我們中央可以運用的資金大概只剩下3600多億啦如果這樣子的話這個真的是影響到中央的施政真的非常嚴重"},{"start":418.886,"end":429.086,"text":"所以我才說要多溝通嘛我認為你們先前不管財政部也好主計處也罷我認為溝通不足耶"},{"start":431.46,"end":448.155,"text":"我們再繼續努力除了我們現在就是說除了就是把相關的資料我們就放在一個專區那另外讓外界清楚了解之外另外我們也希望就是說中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會大家再交換意見"},{"start":449.356,"end":464.199,"text":"過去地方收支的短處那是我們全國都關注那說實在事實上那時候確實我們地方這個收支短處確實是值得關注理解跟同情可是"},{"start":465.08,"end":481.602,"text":"我如果這個數字沒錯的話101年的時候地方收支短促了589億但是從105年開始4年後我們中央補助一直增加已經"},{"start":482.623,"end":494.436,"text":"有剩餘41億那甚至甚至到111年啊到去年剩餘更高達648億剩餘這麼多欸我們並不是說"},{"start":503.944,"end":518.313,"text":"主席長,你們要記得有幾個原則。第一點,中央不要抱著做之君、做之師這種過去古老的想法跟姿態啦。因為"},{"start":519.594,"end":529.556,"text":"即便中央權力比較大、能力比較強千萬也不要忘了大家都是從中央到地方都民選的"},{"start":531.274,"end":555.436,"text":"我們一切以民意為依歸所以跟地方應該是要多溝通要溝通像我剛剛講的那預算因為再來的重責大政如果這個調整那未來很多財源稅收由地方他們就直接收了所以這個地方"},{"start":557.177,"end":580.171,"text":"制度法這個要做事實的他們這一個部分要去多做理解跟調整的部分那以及第二點不要用這種對地方是施捨的心態啦我想這一次中央地方這樣有一點"},{"start":582.983,"end":608.479,"text":"這個槓上齁我覺得跟這些都有關係啦也就是說如果有良好的溝通如果互相的尊重我認為不至於這件事情這麼沒得談因為財政收支劃分法在怎麼講這些稅金在怎麼分配那麼都是為全體國人所用嘛"},{"start":610.319,"end":625.697,"text":"而這跟國土計劃法它所潛在的這種衝突是不一樣的我國土計劃法那個牽涉到的是那麼重大的土地劃分的利益"},{"start":627.323,"end":642.916,"text":"所以沒有所謂的孰是孰非誰一定對誰就一定錯那你們這個埋藏的這種衝突點那基本上是可以化解的所以我是希望說看到"},{"start":644.287,"end":665.42,"text":"財政部跟主計處,你們多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心,那多跟地方尤其多跟兩大在野黨跟他們去溝通,把可行性、不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚好不好?"},{"start":665.88,"end":689.438,"text":"但是今天這個他們一下降到3200億這個部分那你認為說這個照他的說法其實是事兼宜這個部分你們也要多溝通那也要多理解好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝王事兼委員我們看來謝謝次長看來不分男女都希望趕快提出版本財政部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1462,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（17時17分）謝謝主席。我請主計長跟財政部。"],["主席：請主計長跟阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：你們兩位辛苦了，我今天也一整天。我先請教主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們說地方預算，在分配方面我們有五大原則，包含：面積、人口、從事工業的人數、從事農漁牧業人口數及營利事業的家數，以這些原則來制訂。但是這五大原則之間，到底孰重孰輕？比例是怎麼樣？你們有研議，有結論了嗎？定案了嗎？比方說，人口或面積……"],["阮次長清華：我現在只能跟委員報告目前的權重，直轄市的話，人口是占20%、面積占20%，然後就是財政能力10%，另外一個是營利事業營業額50%，這個是直轄市的部分。另外就是縣市的部分，縣市的部分是彌補基準財政收支差短占85%，另外15%是營利事業所得，即營利事業的營業額，所以目前直轄市跟縣市不一樣。對此，我們有一個修法原則，希望直轄市跟縣市將來的分配能夠一致化。"],["王委員世堅：既然你們也擬了這個原則，請問財政部，你們有沒有打算提出行政院院版的財政收支劃分法？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個涉及地方政府的財源，所以我們現在一直在跟地方政府開會、研商……"],["王委員世堅：還在開會，還在研商？"],["阮次長清華：現在是說……"],["王委員世堅：有沒有打算這麼做？"],["阮次長清華：現在是這樣，我們希望直轄市跟縣市就是一套化；但是因為各縣市政府現在提出來的版本很多，指標也很多，有八十個，我們現在一直開會，一直在收斂，現在已經收斂到比較小的範圍，剩下的這幾項，比如權重的問題，還有防制污染要不要列進去？節省的歲出部分要不要列進去？我們會繼續努力來看看水平這部分儘量能夠有共同的看法。"],["王委員世堅：也就是說，我們會提出院版，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：目前我們來努力，先把大家……"],["王委員世堅：大概要多久？"],["阮次長清華：先讓大家有一個共識。"],["王委員世堅：我個人是這樣認為，中央、地方這個預算分配，就四個字─茲事體大！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員世堅：既然茲事體大，我們就要跟地方及社會大眾說明這件事情，就像國土計畫法也是一樣啊！國土計畫法研商幾十年下來，到現在農地保護跟土地開發之間，還是有很多的爭議跟衝突點，這個一定要處理。我想各黨各派都有不同的意見，但即便大家不同黨派，也會有相同的一些看法。既然茲事體大，我們政府對國土計畫法也是打算先暫停，這個不能執意、不能硬拗嘛！不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們希望越修越好，因為財劃法涉及中央跟地方的財源劃分，希望能夠長治久安，不要一天到晚吵這個問題。所以相關的指標要非常的公平合理，包括垂直的，包括水平的，包括事權的劃分，都能夠講得更清楚，大家都可以接受，這樣就比較好處理。我們發現目前大家的情況是這樣，各縣市的距離還滿大的，所以這部分還要耐心慢慢去……"],["王委員世堅：這何止大？光同一個政黨，除非我剛才在螢幕上看錯，我記得在野黨──國民黨的版本大概高達5,800億左右，這是要從中央這邊多掏出來的；但是上午我怎麼在螢幕上看到他們跟你們的對話，好像又降到3,200億，有這回事嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，他們後來雖然是三千兩百多億，事實上是他們漏掉了菸酒稅，所以我們重新算過是4,080。"],["王委員世堅：所以照他的說法是多少？"],["阮次長清華：4,080。"],["王委員世堅：對於這個案子，我認為不管是在野黨或哪一黨都一樣，我們尊重、尊重！但這個可不可行，你要跟他們溝通，不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有在溝通。"],["王委員世堅：這麼多預算到地方去，這當然也是好喔，地方自治嘛！相對的，他們的一些法令也要跟著去搭配調整，比如地方制度法，針對這個預算，他的責任、配置是怎麼樣，他們也要去動起來，不是這樣嗎？"],["阮次長清華：另外很重要一點，就是這樣出去以後，對中央施政的影響，這部分也一定要好好去思考，因為四千多億下出去以後，中央可以運用的資金，大概只剩下三千六百多億，影響中央的施政真的非常嚴重。"],["王委員世堅：是，所以我才說要多溝通！先前不管財政部也好，主計處也罷，我都認為溝通不足！"],["阮次長清華：我們再繼續努力，現在除了把相關資料，放在一個專區，讓外界清楚了解之外，我們也希望中央跟地方之間能夠有更多的機會，大家再交換意見。"],["王委員世堅：過去地方收支短絀，我們全國都關注，說實在話，那時候地方收支短絀確實值得關注、理解跟同情；如果這個數字沒錯的話，101年的時候，地方收支短絀589億；可是從105年開始，也就是4年後，中央的補助就一直增加，已經有賸餘41億，甚至到111年、到去年賸餘更高達648億，賸餘這麼多！所以請次長、主計長記得幾個原則，第一點，中央不要抱著「作之君，作之師」過去這種古老的想法跟姿態，即便中央權力比較大，能力比較強，也千萬不要忘了，中央到地方，大家都民選的，一切以民意為依歸，跟地方應該是要多溝通、要溝通！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["王委員世堅：就像我剛剛講的，再來的重責大任，預算如果有了這一個調整，未來很多財源稅收由地方直接收取，地方制度法在這一個部分，也要多去理解，要適時的調整。第二點，不要對地方持這種施捨的心態，這次中央跟地方會這樣槓上，我覺得跟這些都有關係。如果有良好的溝通，互相的尊重，我認為這件事情不至於這麼沒得談！因為財政收支劃分法再怎麼講，這些稅金要怎麼分配，都是為全體國人所用，跟國土計劃法潛在的這種衝突，是不一樣的，國土計劃法牽涉到的是重大的土地劃分利益。這裡沒有孰是孰非，誰一定對，誰就一定錯，這裡所埋藏的這種衝突點，基本上是可以化解的。本席希望財政部跟主計處多拿出一些溝通的時間跟耐心，多跟地方，尤其多跟兩大在野黨溝通，可行性跟不可行性都必須跟他們講清楚。好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["王委員世堅：今天他們一下降到3,200億這個部分，你認為照他的說法，其實是4,000億，你們也要多溝通，也要多理解。謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，謝謝次長。看來委員不分藍綠，都希望財政部趕快提出版本，財政部要加油！委員跟我的想法一樣，我們不要有那種為之君、為之父的觀念，中央、地方是夥伴關係。","接著我們請登記第二輪第2位的蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}