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Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一) 本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二) 本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三) 本院委員鄭天財Sra 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就不對了,這樣照我的觀念就錯了,因為如果這個版本未來100%是屬於地方分配,如果100%是地方分配的話,這是不是要回到地方去課徵?"},{"start":387.409,"end":408.525,"text":"現在課徵基本上我們現在...你們還是希望保留是由你們來做統一的課徵因為你們有統一的法令解釋所以這個是適合由中央來課徵的不適合回到地方因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋嘛所以這就是會涉及到的對不對問題是人家在分配的時候這不管你中央他要全拿"},{"start":409.706,"end":436.527,"text":"他會呈現不合理他會呈現這個不合理因為現在是40%嘛現在是40%現在增加到100%另外有些首額稅因為他稅額比較大嘛所以像有一些就會增加到25%所以才會有一些版本會增加釋出的財源會達到7000多億的原因在這裡因為他把首額稅的那個比分出去的比重從10%達到25%那達得很高啦"},{"start":439.669,"end":462.775,"text":"這樣子當然就會嚴重衝擊中央的施政五年級都沒了,都沒了,都跌跌跌跌了市長我再跟你聊一題我看這一個以現在我們在101年的時候地方政府他的財政狀況是最差的整個地方政府總共負債了589億這是在101年的時候"},{"start":467.176,"end":479.993,"text":"那看起來在108年後地方政府的財政狀況開始逐步好轉在108年的時候地方的一些財政是正的正的119億"},{"start":481.96,"end":486.604,"text":"109年184億、110年189億、111年463億、112年648億市長你可以說明一下為什麼在108年後有這樣的一個翻轉地方政府的財政狀況有明顯的改善這個主要是什麼原因?最主要是因為稅收增加"},{"start":505.962,"end":530.67,"text":"因為我剛才講就是說我們現在分配的就是所謂稅是分配10%然後在營業稅是40%然後在貨物稅10%所以只要這幾個稅目增加的話就是他們的分配的就會增加所以他們的財政狀況就改善很多那相反的中央在同一個期間同一個期間大概就從101年到112年"},{"start":534.051,"end":548.791,"text":"只有3年是有剩餘的其他的全部都是赤字所以現在如果是從目前的這樣來看的話這地方目前的財政收支劃其實是比中央還要滾賤目前是這樣"},{"start":550.092,"end":555.135,"text":"他想你的說法就是說事實上中央透過補助的方式給地方有大力的幫忙啊!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!"},{"start":567.443,"end":582.251,"text":"而我們就打中央透過爭取那這一件事情上市長你的看法到底是怎樣?就是說同樣一個預算的執行由中央來執行或者是由地方他自己把錢拿回去他自己去執行你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎?"},{"start":584.813,"end":600.373,"text":"現在是這樣子因為現在都是它是部分出去啦部分出去大部分都是比例比如說百分之多少百分之多少出去啊那個系統現在全部都是中央在負責所以弄到地方以後它每一個地方都要有一套系統所以這個會很複雜"},{"start":602.876,"end":623.07,"text":"會很麻煩因為現在統一有國稅局、基層那就在這個程序上在成本上都便利很多以前再弄到各縣市那真的複雜以前就是各縣市那市長你們有盤整就是說這個市權的部分你認為你們有盤整出哪些是屬於適合"},{"start":624.674,"end":650.866,"text":"下放地方,如果他們要編了更多的一個統籌分配的預算那你現在有盤偵哪些事權可能會去下放地方?這個可能要主席總書來回答不過我據我了解就是比如說像這個計劃型補助計劃型補助以前有中央有補助給他那現在就是因為我一般的統籌分配稅款我給他很多了嘛所以我這個計劃型補助我就不給了"},{"start":651.986,"end":674.802,"text":"另外可能就是說老健寶或者是龍寶也是一樣我就可以把它收回來就是有地方自己負擔一定要用這種調整要不然中央沒辦法可是市長我覺得你剛剛列舉啦可是我覺得說用列舉的方式是還不足你必須要去開始盤略對當然因為現在很明顯的嘛現在事實上"},{"start":675.502,"end":695.748,"text":"不管是執政黨或者是在野黨,大家都對統籌分配,每個人都有他的看法。看起來,以召委我們現在這麼積極的態度,你應該也是會緊鑼密鼓地在排審。所以我覺得說你應該要列舉,說到底有哪些事權會隨著統籌分配的改變。"},{"start":696.548,"end":719.008,"text":"市全會也需要調整。我們這一部分我們再跟主席總署這邊來對,你們應該是要溝通,然後要開始列出來,然後讓大家去總之讓一些地方政府也要知道說我未來這些統籌分配哪一些工作未來可能中央就必須要就直接變成說醫療是地方要做的事情所以我是希望啦"},{"start":720.253,"end":747.3,"text":"昨天我們討論了很多今天從早上到現在雖然我們發現很多事情它的答案還是還是一個不清晰的狀況所以我希望說昨天我們等的就是說因為我時間一直超過一直超過嘛我會覺得說尊重宗家編委員如果有來沒來的話不然我等到他來你可以登記第三輪好嗎不然要等宗家編來啊"},{"start":751.692,"end":778.364,"text":"還是說,您的下一組財政我們繼續討論啦好不好我們一定會充分討論不用擔心喔充分討論對一定會對啦,我們就是說我們這次討論到這裡事實上可是我們還是需要我第一次講的時候我們需要很多資料耶那些資料我們到底說你們後面分配會變怎麼樣這我們都一定要搞清楚啊好不好好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,"},{"start":779.624,"end":787.451,"text":"幫你意見寫下,我們要做一個結論,會會會。謝謝,謝謝蔡議員。好,第二輪討論,我們接著請登記第三號的鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在。好,我們廣泛討論第二輪討論,現在告一個段落,那我們在場委員還要發表意見的。第三輪討論要嗎?"},{"start":811.809,"end":815.455,"text":"蔡議員你要第三輪委員,第三輪討論,那我們就第三輪讓你..."}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1502,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（17時29分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我們今天一整天都在討論這個財政收支劃分法，從早上開始，我大概只有在下午黨團協商的時候不在場，剩下的時間我都在這邊聽。事實上，每個人對於財政收支都有一個自己認為合理的分配，但是這個分配的重點，仍在於中央政府的立場是什麼。你們說正在彙整八十幾個意見，並將這些意見逐漸收斂中，你認為收斂這些意見還需要多久的時間？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們之前從八十幾個收斂到目前為止，其實我們事前也花了很多的功夫。"],["蔡委員易餘：事前溝通跟各地方政府……"],["阮次長清華：因為各縣市政府都太堅持己見，都是用自己的利益，自己的角度去提意見……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！今天我站在地方政府，我也想要多為我們地方多爭取一點，大家都一定會想多爭取，因為過去地方的稅收跟中央比起來，來源當然是比較少。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果可以有機會多爭取一些預算或統籌分配的話，地方政府當然會站在自己的利益，這個都不用懷疑；但是我們不要忘了，過去也曾經有地方政府在使用自己的預算時因為浪費，讓地方政府入不敷出，差一點破產，後來也是靠中央政府挹注，來協助他們。對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：當時大概協助了多少？"],["阮次長清華：這個部分可能還要再查一下，當時協助最多的大概就是苗栗縣。目前超限的就剩下一個縣市，本來大概是兩個，包括宜蘭縣，宜蘭縣現在已經降下來了，都OK了；另外有五個縣市已經到警戒值，現在也都降到正常。最主要是稅收好。"],["蔡委員易餘：尤其是我們這幾年有超徵，超徵的部分，事實上也都有分配到地方……"],["阮次長清華：也都多分給他們嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：可是，有幾點想要跟召委分享。我認為有幾個問題，還是要先做一些沙盤式的確認。第一個，我們現在說中央要把財源下放到地方，在事權的部分，我們先不講單純的執行，就說收稅機關的部分，以土地增值稅為例，請教次長，土地增值稅現在是中央稅還是地方稅？"],["阮次長清華：是地方稅。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是如果照國民黨團現在的版本，未來縣市分配要從80%到100%"],["阮次長清華：等於全部都給地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是全部；如果它是地方稅，就由地方的財稅局來課徵……"],["阮次長清華：等於將來就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：將來的土地增值稅都是地方的，這是他們的版本好，這部分依課稅機關，我覺得還合理。"],["阮次長清華：這個可以，這個沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為地方自己課徵，這個沒有問題；但是其他的就不一樣了。例如營業稅，過去地方是40%，國民黨的版本變成100%，請問營業稅是地方稅，還是？"],["阮次長清華：現在是國稅。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以它是由財政部國稅局負責徵收的國稅，對不對？未來如果分出去的話，100%都屬於地方，事權是不是也應該分出去？"],["阮次長清華：當然啦！所以我們說錢跟權一定要同時考慮。"],["蔡委員易餘：錢跟權，對不對？我現在還沒有講到其他一些業務的執行；就單講課稅機關，因為這些稅未來要由哪個人來分配？我們本來還有一個叫作統籌分配，但是現在有一些版本的設計就是百分之百都塞給地方政府，變成課稅機關也產生了問題。還有貨物稅的部分，貨物稅現在是中央稅嗎？"],["阮次長清華：現在是中央稅，目前有10%分給地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：10%分給地方，這個部分在未來的版本可能會改變嗎？因為有好多版本，所以現在還不知道？總之，第一點就是責任跟事權的分配，事權的分配如果要調整，你必須做哪些事？要不要修改土地增值稅法？要不要修改營業稅法？要不要去修法？"],["阮次長清華：那邊不用，但如果要把勞健保或農保改為地方來負擔的話，就會涉及到相關法律的修正問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：不是喔！次長，我剛講的是事權要移動。"],["阮次長清華：對啊。"],["蔡委員易餘：未來營業稅如果改由地方課徵，你們財政部……"],["阮次長清華：不是由地方課徵，還是由國稅局跟海關來課徵，只是課徵完了以後，我們就全部下放。"],["蔡委員易餘：照我的觀念，這樣就不對了，就錯了！如果依這個版本，未來100%屬於地方分配，由地方分配的話，這是不是要回到地方去課徵？"],["阮次長清華：有關課徵的部分，基本上我們現在系統……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們還是希望保留，由你們來統一的課徵，因為你們有統一的法令解釋，所以這個適合由中央來課徵的，不適合回到地方，因為很多時候還是要有一個統一解釋？"],["阮次長清華：對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這就涉及到了問題，對不對？因為人家在分配的時候，不管你中央，他要全拿，這樣就會呈現出不合理。"],["阮次長清華：原本是40%，現在增加到100%，另外有一些所得稅，所得稅稅額比較大，有一些會增加到25%，所以有一些版本增加釋出的財源會達到七千多億，原因就在這裡，因為他把所得稅分出去的比重，從10%拉到25%，拉得很高，這樣當然就會嚴重衝擊到中央的施政。原來有的錢都沒了，都到了地方嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我再跟你聊一題，101年是地方政府財政狀況最差的時候，整個地方政府總共負債589億，到了108年的時候，地方政府的財政狀況開始逐步好轉，來到正的119億，109年是184億，110年是189億，111年是463億，112年是648億。次長可以說明一下，為什麼108年後有這樣的一個翻轉，讓地方政府的財政狀況有了明顯的改善，主要原因是什麼？"],["阮次長清華：最主要是因為稅收增加，我剛才講了，我們現在的稅收分配，所得稅是10%，營業稅是40%，貨物稅是10%，只要這幾個稅目增加，他們的分配就會增加，他們的財政狀況也就改善很多。相反的，中央在同一期間，即101年到112年間，就三年是有剩餘的，其他的全部都是赤字。所以，如果這樣來看，地方目前的財政狀況，其實是比中央還要穩健，目前是這樣啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：照你的說法，事實上中央透過補助的方式，給了地方大力的幫忙！"],["阮次長清華：對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：不過我早上聽到很多立委不買這個情，他們說不要、不要，就直接拿回地方，他們自己來做，不用再向中央來爭取。在這件事情上，次長的看法到底是怎樣？同樣一個預算的執行，由中央來執行，或者是地方把錢拿回去，它自己去執行，你認為這個會有什麼差異嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為現在是部分放出去，大部分都是按比例，比如百分之多少，那個系統現在全都是中央在負責，如果放到地方，則每個地方都要有一套系統，這樣會很複雜、會很麻煩。因為現在統一由國稅局稽徵，在這個程序上、在成本上都便利很多。以前就是各縣市處理，那是真的複雜。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，如果他們要編更多統籌分配的預算，你們有沒有盤整出哪些事權適合下放地方？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能要主計總處來回答。不過據我了解，像計畫型補助以前中央有補助給他，現在因為一般的統籌分配款也給他很多，所以這個計畫型補助就不給了。另外，可能勞健保或農保也一樣，我就可以把它收回來，改由地方自己負擔，一定要用這種方式調整，要不然中央沒辦法……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得次長剛剛用列舉的方式還不足，你必須開始去盤點……"],["阮次長清華：對，當然。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為現在很明顯的，不管是執政黨或在野黨，大家對統籌分配，每個人都有他的看法。以召委這麼積極的態度，應該也會緊鑼密鼓地再排審，所以我覺得你們應該要列舉出來，隨著統籌分配的改變，到底有哪些事權也需要跟著調整？"],["阮次長清華：對於這一部分，我們再跟主計總處這邊來……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你們應該要去溝通，開始列出來，要讓地方政府知道未來這些統籌分配後，哪一些工作可能就直接變成是地方要做的事情。","所以我想跟召委說，我們今天從早上到現在，也討論了很多，事實上我們發現很多事情，它的答案還是一個不清晰的狀況，因為我的發言時間一直超過……"],["主席：我們就尊重鍾佳濱委員，如果他來了，沒來的話……"],["蔡委員易餘：不然等他來之後，我再繼續問。"],["主席：你可以登記第三輪發言，好嗎？"],["蔡委員易餘：那也要等鍾佳濱委員來。還是召委下一次再排審，我們繼續討論，好不好？"],["主席：好，我們一定會充分討論，不用擔心。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們這次討論到這裡，可是我們還需要很多的資料……"],["主席：什麼資料？"],["蔡委員易餘：就是之後的分配會變成怎樣，我們一定要搞清楚，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：召委，我們是不是保留未來還有討論的空間……"],["主席：會，我們可以把你的意見寫下來，等一下做結論。謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接著請登記第3號的鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","廣泛討論第二輪的發言，現在告一個段落。請問在場委員，第三輪討論還有沒有還要發表意見？在場委員說不需要第三輪討論。","從早上九點開會到現在，大概有幾個要點，我們做個結論，不足的地方，請在場委員再補充一下。第一個，剛剛蔡易餘委員也說了，希望你們趕快提出版本，在沒有提出版本的同時，我們下下週修法以前，你們要提出相關的說法，到底影響了什麼事情要寫清楚，讓委員了解。第二個，隨著財政收支劃分法的修訂，內政部的地方制度法，還有財政部的地方稅法通則、公債法的部分，很多委員都認為應該要一併修正，所以請相關部會，內政部今天也有來，趕快提出你們的修法版本，送到各個委員會，財政收支劃分法是牽頭，我們往前修，你們要趕快跟上，這樣才符合委員們的期待！第三個，早上蔡委員也提到這個修法可能牽涉到內政部、環境部以及農業部，所以我們下次修法的時候，請相關部會都要列席，如果部長沒有辦法列席，至少次長以上的層級要列席。做以上結論。","在場所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，還有沒有委員要提出意見？沒有意見的話，今天的廣泛討論到此告一個段落。為了充分讓委員可以表達更多的意見，我們原本安排是21、23、24三天一次會，現作如下決議：財政收支劃分法修正草案共22案，擇期繼續審查；變更財政委員會第三次全體委員會會議議程，我們會另外發通知單，意思就是大家今天已經討論得非常充分，也沒有委員再繼續登記，我們的廣泛討論就告一段落。星期四就進行金管會的議程，我們會再發一次通知單。","各部會還有沒有什麼意見要表示？蔡委員有意見嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}