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十月一號開打的你打了嗎?"},{"start":44.038,"end":46.52,"text":"我十月一號公開打,兩個都打。"},{"start":48.959,"end":72.278,"text":"院長知道最近我們打疫苗的人數嗎?到10月20號流感的話有555萬人但是新冠疫苗只有56萬人部長發生了什麼事?為什麼差這麼大?就你家不是左流右心嗎?是然後可是差距是10倍一個是500多萬人一個是50萬你買了600萬劑"},{"start":75.582,"end":80.636,"text":"現在只達了56萬劑,我們有什麼,是發生什麼事情,什麼問題,要怎麼宣導?"},{"start":82.93,"end":107.359,"text":"所以第一個宣導就是10月1號,我就是走的六關。 太少人是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗?首先講流感疫苗,流感疫苗基本上大家都願意打。 院長我的問題是你這600萬劑要打的話,如果你現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢,是不是可以再多"},{"start":108.312,"end":110.394,"text":"時間暫停,我請那個時間暫停,部長請回這個直接問院長好了,院長我現在很簡單的問一下"},{"start":137.779,"end":164.441,"text":"部長請回部長可以請回我簡單問一下賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心這是非常重要的政策那看起來我們目前為止金融科技其實有在推但大部分是民間在推可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創其實從我們調他們的資料除了凱基金超過100億以上"},{"start":166.002,"end":186.846,"text":"其他幾乎興趣缺缺,總金額佔它的淨值不到5%,也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。然後現在我們看到了,很多的單位都來向院長要錢,環境部要做綠色成長基金,然後文化部已經拿到文化創意產業的將近98億,"},{"start":190.154,"end":212.488,"text":"智慧、健康、國發基金要給他9月6號給他相關的也大概是百億的基金。 然後綠色成長的環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金。 四個百億基金我現在在這邊幫金管會請命。 院長是不是可以有第五支箭促成國內金融科技的杜教授。 比照這四大基金。"},{"start":214.777,"end":234.291,"text":"黃委員,您也待過地方政府,您也知道... 因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢,所以如果可以的話,部長已經跟你現在在申請,所以院長,金融科技發展我認為也是重要的,所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到,那金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下?"},{"start":235.914,"end":263.466,"text":"如果有周圓的計畫,那我們在財政能力上可以的話,我們當然希望能夠建計畫。因為我們的金管會主委彭金榮主委已經說了他希望促成金融的獨角獸,到目前為止他沒有錢。然後剛剛講的金控興趣缺缺,如果國發基金可以挹注的話,我相信除了環境部還有金管會這邊都應該可以促成賴總統他的政見能夠早日的完成。 院長"},{"start":264.434,"end":292.772,"text":"金融科技也是重要的,好嗎?沒有錯,我們從國內金融,我們當然希望它更開放、更國際、更自由,所以更創新是其中必要的表現。謝謝部長,那你既然已經上來了,我們就討論一下這個事吧。這是基隆的協和電廠。協和電廠在8月的臺電的官網,在8月的時候還告訴我們基隆人說,我們3號、4號會在2024年的年底要除役。"},{"start":293.496,"end":315.676,"text":"這是今年8月都還在這樣說可是最近我們再去問他現在的經濟部說臺電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線協和3號4號還是要繼續運轉所以現在部長你們知道他們要除役還是不除役目前按照規劃是要除役要除役那他現在還要再運轉那現在是到底誰在說謊"},{"start":316.791,"end":341.121,"text":"現在其實他是在緊急備用而已備用 這就是我的問題了 院長這個協和電廠他是燒重油的他燒油每發一度電他是成本就要7塊半他賣一度電只拿回3塊也就是在協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊他去年一整年發了24.2億的電他賠了上百億 請問"},{"start":346.271,"end":347.832,"text":"我們是管制他不能超過一定的時數。 是,所以這個部分我是覺得啦。"},{"start":376.089,"end":404.632,"text":"如果要這樣子下去重點是這一句話今年520院長上任然後我們的經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪然後說了一句世界必推動沒有替代方案世界還在環評環評的過程還在討論現在還在不見在5月份的時候我們的經濟部長就直接說沒有替代方案然後環境部長跑出來說"},{"start":406.55,"end":428.898,"text":"我們堅守專業嚴守立場。 彭部長我很佩服你,你說了一句話,環境部不是經濟部的環保署,所以今天要問的是院長。 一個還在環評階段的過程,經濟部可以這樣子隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎?"},{"start":430.029,"end":431.791,"text":"環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任。 但是經濟部的台電"},{"start":444.599,"end":446.96,"text":"萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?萬一環評沒有過呢?"},{"start":446.96,"end":449.22,"text":"院長,沒有替代方這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長。"},{"start":461.204,"end":479.832,"text":"而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查,然後去找替代方案。 任何一個州長為了他的業務,他必須要勇敢地去執行。 執行的過程當中,環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。好,重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧。"},{"start":481.442,"end":489.25,"text":"我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。所以萬一沒有過是不是要找替代方案?"},{"start":489.25,"end":495.397,"text":"院長你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。不要說萬一沒有過,如果真的沒有過那協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電了。你會不會找替代方案?現在"},{"start":499.568,"end":528.918,"text":"目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案,因為現在還在努力環評的過程。所以院長,我希望的是您的部分一樣尊重專業。當然。再講一次,環境部不是經濟部的環保署。對,一直都不是。是,所以我很,我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業,尤其是如果真的沒有通過,我們真的要有替代方案,好嗎,院長。好,接下來部長請回,我請邱部長。"},{"start":545.224,"end":570.082,"text":"委員好部長你曾經在您代當立委的時候代團去日本考察長照保險是嗎?包委員我們去日本考察是考察長照政策所以整個長照政策其實也是我想您接任衛福部長最重要的工作接下來大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會15年後老人會占30%25年後老人會占40%"},{"start":574.984,"end":595.884,"text":"這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。 現在的長照相關的經費政府撥了每年八九百億。 院長也很認真把各部會的錢全部加進來大概有九百多億。 這是一件好事但是長照的經費長期來說它有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠不穩。"},{"start":598.021,"end":623.779,"text":"什麼叫不夠呢現在的支出從之前長照基金還算收入大於支出可是在這兩年已經開始你可以看到從106年開辦到現在113年已經少了40幾億然後今年明年預估的我們有支出要879億收入大概只有758億其他大概都要靠政府的挹注所以長照基金"},{"start":624.301,"end":643.013,"text":"即將日不復出也就是在高度老化的情況下長照基金可能會越來越不穩然後不穩的原因是什麼院長這是最嚴重的問題因為他來自於不確定醫政稅不健康的菸酒稅"},{"start":643.926,"end":670.433,"text":"還有炒房的跟景氣有關的房地合一稅這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產突然一個企業家過世我們才會有突然間大筆的一陣稅所以這個金額你可以從幾億到幾百億不一定所以它是一個不穩定的財源第二個是不健康"},{"start":672.393,"end":697.534,"text":"菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅,部長對吧?你很希望很多菸酒稅嗎?以衛福部的立場是菸酒稅越少越好對不對?是,所以你看,院長可以看到我們現在的菸酒稅它其實大概已經到頂了,200多億,而且在減少中,表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。這是好事,但是這個財稅、財源不穩。"},{"start":700.066,"end":729.304,"text":"第三個部分是房地合一稅從這個金額您可以看到從幾十億到現在112年房地合一稅高達500多億所以你會發現我們長照的錢購其實它是來自於一個投機炒作的錢這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣所以院長這幾樣稅源其實都不是太穩定這是我們認為長照到今天為止大家認為說好像還可以可是未來的幾年我們非常非常的憂心"},{"start":730.831,"end":759.194,"text":"另外就是我不知道部長你覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率跟我們做得好不好?部長你要不告訴我你現在覺得長照做得好不好?長照我們一定全力讓他不要遺漏任何一個需要長照但是現在剛剛前面林培祥委員所說的外籍看護的部分其實他不在長照涵蓋率裡面他是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任"},{"start":759.995,"end":784.2,"text":"接下去的65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估將來每10個人就1.3個人是失能依照這個推估的話到去年我們將近有86萬的失能者但是有十幾萬人其實是沒有來使用所謂的長照服務也就是說剛剛部長說的有人被漏掉了中間可能有一半一大半是用了外籍看護工"},{"start":785.649,"end":814.759,"text":"所以部長今天我要討論的是長照保險在去年11月的民調家庭照顧者協會他們做的民調90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢將來照顧自己多一點比照全民健保全民納保的概念80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險而且現在坊間的商業保險也非常多的長照險"},{"start":815.43,"end":825.519,"text":"所以 院長、部長這件事情我希望成為臺灣未來長照的先河就是兩位。報告委員"},{"start":826.274,"end":854.339,"text":"台灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會,所以日本的例子我們當然可以來當參考,但是無法完全的補充。所以我知道我們要建立一個更好的制度,所以這是德國在1995年他們人口佔比15%的時候就推動了。日本是在2000年推動,當時的老年人是17,那更重要跟我們相近的2008年的南韓,他也推動長照線。"},{"start":855.339,"end":883.648,"text":"而且現在目前為止全國的我們全世界大概投入在OECD國家平均投入長照費用經費的部分應該是在GDP1%1.7%臺灣只佔0.26%也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠所以長照保險讓人民出一點讓政府出一點讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點這個是我們希望"},{"start":884.827,"end":902.222,"text":"部長你去考察過,你的想法是什麼?是,我想我們這幾年來,我想委員非常重視社區的一個力量,過去也幫忙非常多所以我們希望長照成為我們社區政府,最後我想我時間有限,跟院長一個"},{"start":903.915,"end":917.48,"text":"這個就是長照險應該是最基礎的,上面你可以去買商業保險,就像醫療險一樣,接下去才是家庭互助,最後才是自費市場。但是沒有長照險的情況下,現在就叫做長照杯葛,現在就叫做……"},{"start":937.981,"end":945.136,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝卓院長。報告委員會,現在在議場二樓旁聽起的是"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:34.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:34.389000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:34.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:36.371000+08:00","text":"請卓院長，還有邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:36.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.471000+08:00","text":"請卓院長、邱部長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.511000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.591000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.632000+08:00","text":"院長好、部長好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.832000+08:00","text":"我想請問兩位都滿65歲了嗎？當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:37.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:38.272000+08:00","text":"已經滿了，所以院長您打過疫苗了嗎？打過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:38.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:20:39.213000+08:00","text":"打了，今年打了？剛打？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:20:39.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:05.171000+08:00","text":"有，上半年打過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:05.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:08.613000+08:00","text":"上半年打過，10月1號的流感疫苗跟新冠疫苗你打了嗎？沒有？","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:08.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:15.277000+08:00","text":"今年的流感疫苗我在年中的時候打過。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:15.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:16.277000+08:00","text":"部長呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:15.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:17.038000+08:00","text":"10月1號開打的，你打了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:17.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:19.500000+08:00","text":"我10月1號公開施打，兩個都打。好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:21.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:25.542000+08:00","text":"院長知道最近我們打疫苗的人數嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:25.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:36.251000+08:00","text":"到10月20號，流感疫苗有555萬人，但是新冠疫苗只有56萬人，部長，發生了什麼事，為什麼差這麼大？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:38.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:39.553000+08:00","text":"不是「左流右新」嗎？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:41.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:42.816000+08:00","text":"可是差距是十倍！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:43.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:53.115000+08:00","text":"一個是五百多萬人，一個是五十萬，你買了600萬劑，現在只打了56萬劑，我們是發生什麼事情、什麼問題？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:53.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:53.636000+08:00","text":"要怎麼宣導？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:21:55.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:21:58.311000+08:00","text":"所以第一個宣導就是，10月1號我就去左流右冠……","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:00.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:03.673000+08:00","text":"所以太少人，是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:04.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:09.375000+08:00","text":"首先講流感疫苗，流感疫苗基本上大家都搶著願意打啦！好啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:11.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:20.339000+08:00","text":"部長、院長，我的問題是這600萬劑要打的話，如果以現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢，是不是可以再多加宣導，讓大家知道今年要打兩劑？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:20.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:21.339000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長都說他打過，但是他不知道今年10月還可以打兩劑，一個是流感，一個是新冠，好嗎？","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:21.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:22.339000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:22.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:23.339000+08:00","text":"部長，加油，宣導一下，不然明年又要報廢了，去年的庫存可能有270萬劑也要報廢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:22.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:23.374000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，部長請回，這個直接問院長好了，院長，我現在很簡單的問一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:50.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:22:52.741000+08:00","text":"部長可以請回。謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:22:54.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:23:28.784000+08:00","text":"我簡單問一下，賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心，這是非常重要的政策，看起來目前為止我們金融科技其實有在推，但大部分是民間在推，可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創，其實從我們調他們的資料來看，除了凱基金超過100億以上，其他幾乎興趣缺缺，總金額占它的淨值不到5%，也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:23:29.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:23:54.021000+08:00","text":"然後現在我們看到了，很多的單位都來向院長要錢，環境部要做綠色成長基金，文化部已經拿到「文化創意產業」，將近98億；「智慧健康」相關的部分，國發基金9月6號也是大概給它百億的基金，然後綠色成長的部分，環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金，四個百億基金。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:23:54.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:05.468000+08:00","text":"我現在在這邊幫金管會請命，院長，是不是可以有第五支箭，促成國內金融科技的獨角獸，比照這四大基金？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:07.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:11.160000+08:00","text":"黃委員，您也待過地方政府，你也知道，行政單位……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:16.523000+08:00","text":"是，因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢，所以如果可以的話……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:16.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:17.523000+08:00","text":"行政單位面對這些需求的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:16.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:27.271000+08:00","text":"部長已經跟您申請了，院長，我認為金融科技發展也是重要的，所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到，金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:28.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:34.717000+08:00","text":"如果有周延的計畫，我們在財政能力上可以的話，我們當然希望能夠五箭齊發。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:34.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:41.580000+08:00","text":"因為金管會彭金隆主委已經說了，他希望促成金融的獨角獸，到目前為止他沒有錢。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:41.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:55.766000+08:00","text":"然後剛剛講的，金控興趣缺缺，如果國發基金可以挹注的話，我相信除了環境部，還有金管會，都應該可以促成賴總統他的政見能夠早日的完成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:56.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:24:59.936000+08:00","text":"院長，金融科技也是重要的，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:24:59.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:06.800000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，我們從國內金融，我們當然希望它更開放、更國際、更自由，所以更創新是其中必要的表現。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:06.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:09.942000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，既然你已經上來了，我們就討論一下這個事吧！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:11.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:25.752000+08:00","text":"這個是基隆的協和電廠，台電的官網在8月的時候還告訴基隆人說，協和3號、4號會在2024年年底除役。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:26.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:39.088000+08:00","text":"今年8月都還在這樣說，可是最近我們再去問他，現在的經濟部說，台電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線，協和3號、4號還是要繼續運轉。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:39.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:43.031000+08:00","text":"所以現在部長，你們知道它們要除役還是不除役嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:43.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:45.353000+08:00","text":"目前按照規劃是要除役。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:45.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:46.074000+08:00","text":"要除役？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:46.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:48.676000+08:00","text":"那它現在還要再運轉，現在到底是誰在說謊？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:49.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:25:52.532000+08:00","text":"現在其實它是在緊急備用而已，有一定時數的限制。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:25:53.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:14.121000+08:00","text":"院長，這就是我的問題了，這個協和電廠是燒重油的，它燒油每發一度電，成本就要7塊半，但它賣一度電只拿回3塊，也就是說，協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊，而它去年一整年發了24.2億的電，它賠了上百億。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:14.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:15.151000+08:00","text":"請問如果不除役，要繼續這樣賠下去嗎？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:15.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:16.181000+08:00","text":"這個要蓋到新的機組弄好大概要7年，這7年都要做緊急用電，但是它還要發這麼貴的電嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:16.181000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:17.211000+08:00","text":"它如果除役，那緊急備用，它是一個備用的備援系統。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:17.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:18.241000+08:00","text":"所以你的備援，它也是用這樣的方式，你要留多少人力？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:18.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:19.271000+08:00","text":"有相關的計畫，環境部知道他們的計畫嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:19.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:26:20.491000+08:00","text":"我們是管制它不能超過一定時數。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:26:20.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:02.040000+08:00","text":"是，所以這個部分我是覺得如果要這樣子下去，重點是這一句話，今年520院長上任，經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪，然後說了一句：四接必推動，沒有替代方案。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:04.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:13.369000+08:00","text":"四接還在環評，環評的過程還在討論，現在還在補件，但在5月份的時候，我們的經濟部長就直接說，沒有替代方案。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:14.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:24.672000+08:00","text":"然後環境部長跑出來說，我們堅守專業、嚴守立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:24.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:32.715000+08:00","text":"彭部長，我很佩服你，你說了一句話，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。是。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:33.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:41.898000+08:00","text":"所以今天要問的是院長，一個還在環評階段的過程，經濟部可以這樣隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:41.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:42.898000+08:00","text":"環境部做好環境保護……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:42.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:43.898000+08:00","text":"如果沒有替代方案的話，表示環境部就只能買單囉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:43.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:44.431000+08:00","text":"環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:44.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:51.015000+08:00","text":"它要做環評，環評不是經濟部說了算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:51.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:57.599000+08:00","text":"但是經濟部下的台電的協和電廠就是要用天然氣來橋接，所以它必須轉換成……","quality":0.219},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:57.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:58.479000+08:00","text":"萬一環評沒有過呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:58.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:59.019000+08:00","text":"萬一環評沒有過呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:59.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:27:59.920000+08:00","text":"萬一環評沒有過呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:27:59.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:19.406000+08:00","text":"院長，沒有替代方案這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長，而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查，然後去找替代方案。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:19.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:22.767000+08:00","text":"任何一個首長，為了他的業務，他必須要勇敢的去執行……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:22.767000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:23.767000+08:00","text":"院長，我要講的是，如果院長也是這個態度的話，我覺得這樣很可怕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:22.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:29.370000+08:00","text":"執行的過程當中，環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:30.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:32.812000+08:00","text":"好，重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:34.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:38.346000+08:00","text":"我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:38.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:42.070000+08:00","text":"所以萬一沒有過，是不是要找替代方案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:42.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:44.873000+08:00","text":"院長，你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:44.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:47.156000+08:00","text":"不要說萬一沒有過，如果真的沒有過，協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:47.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:48.257000+08:00","text":"你會不會找替代方案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:52.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:28:56.689000+08:00","text":"目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案，因為現在還在努力環評的過程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:28:57.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:01.591000+08:00","text":"所以院長，我希望的是您的部分一樣要尊重專業。當然。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:01.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:05.832000+08:00","text":"我再講一次，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:06.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:07.353000+08:00","text":"一直都不是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:07.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:18.857000+08:00","text":"是，我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業，尤其是如果真的沒有通過，我們真的要有替代方案，院長，好嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:19.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:21.918000+08:00","text":"接下來，部長請回，我請邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:38.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:38.384000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:38.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:47.051000+08:00","text":"部長，你曾經在當立委的時候帶團去日本考察長照保險，是嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:47.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:51.214000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們去日本考察是考察全面的政策。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:52.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:29:57.638000+08:00","text":"好，所以整個長照政策其實也是你接任衛福部長最重要的工作。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:29:58.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:30:12.028000+08:00","text":"接下來，大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會，15年後老人會占30%，25年後老人會占40%，這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。是。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:30:12.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:30:31.681000+08:00","text":"現在長照相關的經費政府每年撥了八、九百億，院長也很認真，把各部會的錢全部加進來，大概有九百多億，這是一件好事，但是長期來說，長照的經費有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠、不穩，什麼叫不夠呢？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:30:33.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:30:58.262000+08:00","text":"之前長照基金還算收入大於支出，可是在這兩年開始你可以看到，從106年開辦到現在，113年已經少了四十幾億，預估明年的支出要879億，收入大概只有758億，其他大概都要靠政府挹注，所以長照基金即將入不敷出。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:30:58.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:08.008000+08:00","text":"也就是在高度老化的情況下，長照基金可能會越來越不穩，不穩的原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:08.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:21.707000+08:00","text":"院長，這是最嚴重的問題，因為它來自於不確定的遺贈稅、不健康的菸酒稅，還有跟炒房、景氣有關的房地合一稅。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:21.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:41.052000+08:00","text":"這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定，政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產，比如突然有一個企業家過世，才會突然間有大筆的遺贈稅，這個金額可以從幾億到幾百億不一定，所以它是一個不穩定的財源。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:42.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:48.095000+08:00","text":"第二個是不健康，菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅，部長，對吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:48.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:52.139000+08:00","text":"你希望收很多菸酒稅嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:52.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:56.022000+08:00","text":"以衛福部的立場，是菸酒稅越少越好，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:56.022000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:31:57.022000+08:00","text":"我們希望民眾儘量不要抽菸、不要抽酒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:31:56.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:08.212000+08:00","text":"是，所以院長可以看到現在菸酒稅大概已經到頂了、兩百多億而且在減少中，表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:09.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:10.534000+08:00","text":"這是好事，但是這個財源不穩。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:13.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:28.055000+08:00","text":"第三個部分是房地合一稅，從這個金額您可以看到，從幾十億到112年高達五百多億，所以你會發現長照的錢夠，其實是來自於一個投機炒作的錢。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:28.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:42.284000+08:00","text":"這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣，所以院長，這幾樣稅源都不是太穩定，長照到今天為止，大家認為好像還可以，可是未來的幾年，我們非常憂心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:43.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:49.816000+08:00","text":"另外，我不知道部長覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率做得好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:51.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:32:56.001000+08:00","text":"部長，你要不要告訴我，你覺得現在長照做得好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:32:56.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:33:00.405000+08:00","text":"我們一定全力讓長照不要遺漏任何一個需要長照的人。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:33:00.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:33:12.174000+08:00","text":"但是剛剛前面林沛祥委員所說的外籍看護，其實不在長照涵蓋率裡面，而是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:33:12.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:33:30.139000+08:00","text":"接下去，65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估，將來每10個人就有1.3個人失能，依照這個推估的話，到去年有將近86萬的失能者，但是有十幾萬人沒有使用所謂的長照服務。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:33:30.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:33:42.150000+08:00","text":"也就是剛剛部長說的，有人被漏掉，中間可能有一大半是用了外籍看護工，所以今天我要討論的是長照保險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:33:43.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:34:07.759000+08:00","text":"根據去年11月家庭照護者協會所做的民調，90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢，將來照顧自己多一點，比照全民健保、全民納保的概念；80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險，而且現在坊間的商業保險也有推非常多的長照險。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:34:09.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:34:15.876000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，針對這件事情，我希望兩位成為臺灣未來長照的先河。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:34:19.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:34:24.255000+08:00","text":"臺灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會……沒錯。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:34:24.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:34:29.116000+08:00","text":"所以日本的例子我們當然可以當參考，但是無法完全比照。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:34:30.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:34:47.319000+08:00","text":"我知道，我們要建立一個更好的制度，德國在1995年、老年人占比15%的時候就推動了；日本是在2000年推動，當時的老年人占比是17%；更重要的是，跟我們相近、2008年的南韓，也推動長照險。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:34:48.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:08.325000+08:00","text":"而且目前為止，OECD國家平均投入長照險、長照費用的經費應該是占GDP1.7%，臺灣只占0.26%，也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:08.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:16.628000+08:00","text":"所以長照保險讓人民出一點、讓政府出一點，讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點，這個是我們希望的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:17.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:21.450000+08:00","text":"部長，你去考察過，你的想法是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:21.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:29.257000+08:00","text":"是，我想我們這幾年來，委員非常重視社區的力量，過去也幫忙非常多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:29.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:32.300000+08:00","text":"是，所以我們希望長照成為我們社區、政府……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:32.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:45.958000+08:00","text":"最後，我時間有限，請院長看簡報，長照險應該是最基礎的，上面的話你可以去買商業保險，就像醫療險一樣，接下去才是家庭互助，最後才是自費市場。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:45.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:50.160000+08:00","text":"但是沒有長照險的情況下，現在就叫做長照悲歌，現在就是很多人必須要自己辭職、自己下來照顧。","quality":0.525},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:50.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:35:55.420250+08:00","text":"所以部長、院長，我希望長照保險成為卓院長未來規劃的方向，好嗎？","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:35:55.420250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:00.680500+08:00","text":"這是一個很好的思考的方向，我們可以來研究，但是不一定完全copy。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:00.680500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:05.940750+08:00","text":"部長都考察過了，他應該很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:05.940750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:11.201000+08:00","text":"好的，我會請教部長。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:11.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:14.328000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:14.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:18.116000+08:00","text":"報告院會，現在議場2樓旁聽席的是高雄市橋頭區環保促進會的朋友，我們在這邊歡迎他們。","quality":0.324},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:18.616000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:21.758857+08:00","text":"下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時20分）謝謝主席。請卓院長，還有邱部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長好、部長好。我想請問兩位都滿65歲了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經滿了，所以院長您打過疫苗了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：打了，今年打了？剛打？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，上半年打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：上半年打過，10月1號的流感疫苗跟新冠疫苗你打了嗎？沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年的流感疫苗我在年中的時候打過。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長呢？10月1號開打的，你打了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我10月1號公開施打，兩個都打。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。院長知道最近我們打疫苗的人數嗎？到10月20號，流感疫苗有555萬人，但是新冠疫苗只有56萬人，部長，發生了什麼事，為什麼差這麼大？不是「左流右新」嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：可是差距是十倍！一個是五百多萬人，一個是五十萬，你買了600萬劑，現在只打了56萬劑，我們是發生什麼事情、什麼問題？要怎麼宣導？"],["邱部長泰源：所以第一個宣導就是，10月1號我就去左流右冠……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以太少人，是不知道還是不敢打新冠疫苗？"],["邱部長泰源：首先講流感疫苗，流感疫苗基本上大家都搶著願意打啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦！部長、院長，我的問題是這600萬劑要打的話，如果以現在的宣導速度我覺得有點慢，是不是可以再多加宣導，讓大家知道今年要打兩劑？剛剛院長都說他打過，但是他不知道今年10月還可以打兩劑，一個是流感，一個是新冠，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，加油，宣導一下，不然明年又要報廢了，去年的庫存可能有270萬劑也要報廢。時間暫停，部長請回，這個直接問院長好了，院長，我現在很簡單的問一下。部長可以請回。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我簡單問一下，賴清德總統說要推動亞洲金融科技創新中心，這是非常重要的政策，看起來目前為止我們金融科技其實有在推，但大部分是民間在推，可是國內的金控公司對於轉投資所謂的新創，其實從我們調他們的資料來看，除了凱基金超過100億以上，其他幾乎興趣缺缺，總金額占它的淨值不到5%，也就是說金融創新在金融業並不是那麼受歡迎。","然後現在我們看到了，很多的單位都來向院長要錢，環境部要做綠色成長基金，文化部已經拿到「文化創意產業」，將近98億；「智慧健康」相關的部分，國發基金9月6號也是大概給它百億的基金，然後綠色成長的部分，環境部現在又要提出一個百億基金，四個百億基金。我現在在這邊幫金管會請命，院長，是不是可以有第五支箭，促成國內金融科技的獨角獸，比照這四大基金？"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員，您也待過地方政府，你也知道，行政單位……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，因為這是國發基金裡面可以動用的錢，所以如果可以的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政單位面對這些需求的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長已經跟您申請了，院長，我認為金融科技發展也是重要的，所以環境部這筆錢要不要得到，金融科技是不是院長也考慮一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有周延的計畫，我們在財政能力上可以的話，我們當然希望能夠五箭齊發。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為金管會彭金隆主委已經說了，他希望促成金融的獨角獸，到目前為止他沒有錢。然後剛剛講的，金控興趣缺缺，如果國發基金可以挹注的話，我相信除了環境部，還有金管會，都應該可以促成賴總統他的政見能夠早日的完成。院長，金融科技也是重要的，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，我們從國內金融，我們當然希望它更開放、更國際、更自由，所以更創新是其中必要的表現。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝部長，既然你已經上來了，我們就討論一下這個事吧！這個是基隆的協和電廠，台電的官網在8月的時候還告訴基隆人說，協和3號、4號會在2024年年底除役。今年8月都還在這樣說，可是最近我們再去問他，現在的經濟部說，台電說新的燃氣組大概7年後會上線，協和3號、4號還是要繼續運轉。所以現在部長，你們知道它們要除役還是不除役嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前按照規劃是要除役。"],["黃委員珊珊：要除役？那它現在還要再運轉，現在到底是誰在說謊？"],["彭部長啓明：現在其實它是在緊急備用而已，有一定時數的限制。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這就是我的問題了，這個協和電廠是燒重油的，它燒油每發一度電，成本就要7塊半，但它賣一度電只拿回3塊，也就是說，協和電廠燃油每發一度電就賠4.5塊，而它去年一整年發了24.2億的電，它賠了上百億。請問如果不除役，要繼續這樣賠下去嗎？這個要蓋到新的機組弄好大概要7年，這7年都要做緊急用電，但是它還要發這麼貴的電嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果除役，那緊急備用，它是一個備用的備援系統。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你的備援，它也是用這樣的方式，你要留多少人力？有相關的計畫，環境部知道他們的計畫嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是管制它不能超過一定時數。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以這個部分我是覺得如果要這樣子下去，重點是這一句話，今年520院長上任，經濟部長非常快速的接受媒體的專訪，然後說了一句：四接必推動，沒有替代方案。四接還在環評，環評的過程還在討論，現在還在補件，但在5月份的時候，我們的經濟部長就直接說，沒有替代方案。然後環境部長跑出來說，我們堅守專業、嚴守立場。彭部長，我很佩服你，你說了一句話，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天要問的是院長，一個還在環評階段的過程，經濟部可以這樣隨意的說出沒有替代方案嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部做好環境保護……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果沒有替代方案的話，表示環境部就只能買單囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部做好環境保護的各種評鑑的責任……"],["黃委員珊珊：它要做環評，環評不是經濟部說了算。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是經濟部下的台電的協和電廠就是要用天然氣來橋接，所以它必須轉換成……"],["黃委員珊珊：萬一環評沒有過呢？萬一環評沒有過呢？萬一環評沒有過呢？院長，沒有替代方案這件事情不應該是出自於行政首長，而是我們要如何尊重環境部的專業審查，然後去找替代方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何一個首長，為了他的業務，他必須要勇敢的去執行……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我要講的是，如果院長也是這個態度的話，我覺得這樣很可怕。"],["卓院長榮泰：執行的過程當中，環境部所有的規定他都必須要遵守。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，重點是院長遵守環境部的環評委員的專業審查吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從過去到現在一直對於環評的過程是很重視的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以萬一沒有過，是不是要找替代方案？院長，你不要告訴我你的答案也是沒有替代方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：不要說萬一沒有過，如果真的沒有過，協和電廠以後就沒有辦法發電。"],["黃委員珊珊：你會不會找替代方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是還沒有想到任何的替代方案，因為現在還在努力環評的過程。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長，我希望的是您的部分一樣要尊重專業。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：我再講一次，環境部不是經濟部的環保署。"],["彭部長啓明：一直都不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我希望部長能夠堅守這個專業，尤其是如果真的沒有通過，我們真的要有替代方案，院長，好嗎？","接下來，部長請回，我請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你曾經在當立委的時候帶團去日本考察長照保險，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們去日本考察是考察全面的政策。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以整個長照政策其實也是你接任衛福部長最重要的工作。接下來，大家都知道明年我們就是超高齡社會，15年後老人會占30%，25年後老人會占40%，這是一個非常非常快速老化的社會。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在長照相關的經費政府每年撥了八、九百億，院長也很認真，把各部會的錢全部加進來，大概有九百多億，這是一件好事，但是長期來說，長照的經費有一個很嚴重的問題是不夠、不穩，什麼叫不夠呢？之前長照基金還算收入大於支出，可是在這兩年開始你可以看到，從106年開辦到現在，113年已經少了四十幾億，預估明年的支出要879億，收入大概只有758億，其他大概都要靠政府挹注，所以長照基金即將入不敷出。","也就是在高度老化的情況下，長照基金可能會越來越不穩，不穩的原因是什麼？院長，這是最嚴重的問題，因為它來自於不確定的遺贈稅、不健康的菸酒稅，還有跟炒房、景氣有關的房地合一稅。這三樣東西來自所謂的不確定，政府要靠有錢人或者是很多的遺產，比如突然有一個企業家過世，才會突然間有大筆的遺贈稅，這個金額可以從幾億到幾百億不一定，所以它是一個不穩定的財源。","第二個是不健康，菸酒稅是一個很不健康的稅，部長，對吧？你希望收很多菸酒稅嗎？以衛福部的立場，是菸酒稅越少越好，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望民眾儘量不要抽菸、不要抽酒。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以院長可以看到現在菸酒稅大概已經到頂了、兩百多億而且在減少中，表示衛福部的宣導還是有些功效。這是好事，但是這個財源不穩。第三個部分是房地合一稅，從這個金額您可以看到，從幾十億到112年高達五百多億，所以你會發現長照的錢夠，其實是來自於一個投機炒作的錢。這個錢跟景氣有關而且也是要碰運氣，所以院長，這幾樣稅源都不是太穩定，長照到今天為止，大家認為好像還可以，可是未來的幾年，我們非常憂心。","另外，我不知道部長覺得現在我們的長照涵蓋率做得好不好？部長，你要不要告訴我，你覺得現在長照做得好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定全力讓長照不要遺漏任何一個需要長照的人。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是剛剛前面林沛祥委員所說的外籍看護，其實不在長照涵蓋率裡面，而是靠著外籍勞工來分擔政府長照的責任。接下去，65歲以上的人口目前按照衛福部的推估，將來每10個人就有1.3個人失能，依照這個推估的話，到去年有將近86萬的失能者，但是有十幾萬人沒有使用所謂的長照服務。也就是剛剛部長說的，有人被漏掉，中間可能有一大半是用了外籍看護工，所以今天我要討論的是長照保險。根據去年11月家庭照護者協會所做的民調，90%的民眾是願意自己先出一點點錢，將來照顧自己多一點，比照全民健保、全民納保的概念；80%的民眾贊成用全民健保的方式來推動長照保險，而且現在坊間的商業保險也有推非常多的長照險。院長、部長，針對這件事情，我希望兩位成為臺灣未來長照的先河。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣是比日本在更短的時間內進入到高齡社會……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["邱部長泰源：所以日本的例子我們當然可以當參考，但是無法完全比照。"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，我們要建立一個更好的制度，德國在1995年、老年人占比15%的時候就推動了；日本是在2000年推動，當時的老年人占比是17%；更重要的是，跟我們相近、2008年的南韓，也推動長照險。而且目前為止，OECD國家平均投入長照險、長照費用的經費應該是占GDP1.7%，臺灣只占0.26%，也就是我們政府的挹注其實不夠。所以長照保險讓人民出一點、讓政府出一點，讓大家為了自己的未來都出一點，這個是我們希望的。部長，你去考察過，你的想法是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我想我們這幾年來，委員非常重視社區的力量，過去也幫忙非常多。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我們希望長照成為我們社區、政府……","最後，我時間有限，請院長看簡報，長照險應該是最基礎的，上面的話你可以去買商業保險，就像醫療險一樣，接下去才是家庭互助，最後才是自費市場。但是沒有長照險的情況下，現在就叫做長照悲歌，現在就是很多人必須要自己辭職、自己下來照顧。所以部長、院長，我希望長照保險成為卓院長未來規劃的方向，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個很好的思考的方向，我們可以來研究，但是不一定完全copy。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長都考察過了，他應該很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我會請教部長。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在議場2樓旁聽席的是高雄市橋頭區環保促進會的朋友，我們在這邊歡迎他們。","下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}