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院長好部長好 院長質詢期間總質詢期間辛苦你們了不會的 院長當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮他是反對的但是因為那時候有國會的優勢所以還是闖過關了所以這個部分程度可以說明民進黨想推動什麼法案大概就會去過什麼樣的法案"},{"start":46.782,"end":74.41,"text":"所謂的社會共識大概只有在這個不想推動什麼法案的時候就會一直講沒有社會共識沒有社會共識那為什麼我要這樣說呢以代孕法案來說三次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的兩成的不反對就是有八成的民意基礎但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識所以我這裡要請教部長"},{"start":75.33,"end":80.516,"text":"如果要做最近的例子來看,我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的。 我們一直以這個當作"},{"start":93.608,"end":108.602,"text":"國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子這是一個很高的共識那至於說當初美國來租的問題那是因為我們有科學的根據用國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提"},{"start":108.882,"end":109.883,"text":"請問院長,您知道這段話出自何人嗎?"},{"start":140.267,"end":147.263,"text":"請委員指教 我不知道這段話是什麼那你認同這段話嗎我基本上是認同的"},{"start":149.758,"end":172.646,"text":"院長這是賴清德立委在2020年提出的代孕人工生殖法案這個草案的提案說明謝謝你剛好也是認同的但是很遺憾5年後2007年人工生殖法僅僅包含的捐精捐卵還是排除了代孕迄今20幾年那當時的賴清德立委現在已經是賴清德總統了今年國宴520"},{"start":173.886,"end":174.387,"text":"報告委員﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":200.152,"end":219.571,"text":"總統有告訴過我當時國務院那一天你們講話的那個場景他也認為說在事實的情況底下臺灣社會已經朝向更開放更先進步更多元的時代是可以研究的像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題"},{"start":220.691,"end":221.432,"text":"請問院長您支持衛福部的版本嗎?"},{"start":240.759,"end":242.982,"text":"我們已經在7月13日結束議告期,我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議。"},{"start":256.357,"end":261.602,"text":"為什麼我覺得院長態度很重要,院長其實多年來每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法,但是都被行政院性平衛的委員連署反對。"},{"start":281.261,"end":283.342,"text":"今年3月長期擔任性評會委員的黃淑英"},{"start":305.123,"end":333.314,"text":"在姓名會的會期會封殺代孕這個議程,他不讓代孕進入議程討論。他近期告訴人家說代孕是寄予別人的子宮。我很想回他,你有種、有本事、有膽,你就這樣等待器官捐贈人說,你們在寄予別人的器官。院長我要講的是,與行政院的姓名會那也長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢?"},{"start":336.06,"end":362.225,"text":"議員長,20多年來,代孕經歷多好公開的討論,兩次公民會議,三次國家民調,超過10次的公聽會,無數場的專家會議,還有委託大學做研究計畫,它所有的結論都不是5比5,幾乎都是一面倒的支持代孕解禁,這都是政府機關辦的,請問政府機關辦的有沒有公信力?議員長,有沒有公信力?請委員理解,政府所有的"},{"start":363.021,"end":363.421,"text":"幾位姓評會的委員"},{"start":378.577,"end":400.499,"text":"憑什麼否決八成民意?憑什麼用個人的意識形態來扼殺不孕病人的一線生機?所以我想請教院長,您基本上您的態度是非常重要,是您在當家還是姓平會在當家?姓平會當然是院內的一個委員會一個組織,那所有的決議"},{"start":402.749,"end":424.094,"text":"行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定因為您上次回答我是人民在當家我已經告訴你民意如此這個是有證據可考察的然後我可以告訴你一些內幕林全在當院長的時候這個性別非常的囂張一直都很囂張的他很忍耐聽了幾個小時蘇院長主持了一次以後他說不用再召開了"},{"start":425.414,"end":442.319,"text":"賴院長主持會曾經公開講說,你們記好你們的角色,你們是質疑委員。 院長你剛剛也提出了,這些人是質疑委員,不是決策委員。 是的是憲平會在統治臺灣嗎?還是您在治理臺灣?是賴總統在治理臺灣?"},{"start":442.319,"end":444.54,"text":"院長我要你拿出魄力"},{"start":445.956,"end":466.215,"text":"不要讓姓平慧爬到你的頭上去國家有國家的立場姓平慧不是太像我們機關那因為您是召集人嘛您是召集人部長您是委員喔如果人工生技法案這次再進到姓平慧他們又反對了那你們要不要捍衛部長您要不要捍衛你的版本院長您要不要捍衛政府的版本你要不要捍衛"},{"start":469.01,"end":497.449,"text":"我一定會說明我們版本的他的意義以及他考量以及到妹妹聚到照顧到兒童小孩的潛力照顧到母親你不捍衛你還當什麼部長對不對新民委員如果有過去的疑問我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回覆希望能夠取得理解那麼有新發生的問題我們共同來討論一個解決的方式人類社會行為已經很久執政者有意為為自己的政策辯護嗎"},{"start":498.45,"end":500.811,"text":"我已經告訴你有幾個變態的委員在裡面阿講了那些不像話的人 不像話的話阿"},{"start":529.537,"end":551.14,"text":"委員長,為代孕做辯護,我資料都幫您準備好了。衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議,得到非常積極正面的結論,是積極正面,不是無比於我。國健署三次全國性民調,等一下我會給你看,壓倒性的支持。另外還有一份是,這個是民國88年,衛生署研究報告,主持人是婦產科全衛,他現在還在照顧病人,叫曾啟瑞教授。"},{"start":551.981,"end":560.935,"text":"主題是《代理孕母國際現況分析》,研究結論是這樣的,長期以來我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律各個觀點來不斷地爭辯,但是我們經常忽略主角本身。"},{"start":561.98,"end":581.392,"text":"委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻禁止不等於不會發生禁止不等於不會發生尤其代理孕母她本質並非本質為惡的行為在禁止的情況下只會使當事人在沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母的行為這對當事人跟他的子女都不會更有利的我也偷跑過啊"},{"start":583.517,"end":602.784,"text":"請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所出的結論。好,再下一張也是,民國99年衛生署還有個研究主題,世界各國代孕升值政策討論。結論很清楚,代孕增值已久,當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年以難享有代孕政策開放的果實。這講的就是我啦,陳昭姿啦。"},{"start":604.585,"end":607.207,"text":"我們繼續看本研究的結論,他說我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後,不育人口逐漸增加,十幾年前就是發現。"},{"start":622.415,"end":635.039,"text":"大運需求與日俱增,開放大運已成為世界潮流,希望本研究的成果有助於大運法規的及早的訂定跟施行,讓博運附近能享有現代生殖科技帶來的喜悅。 院長這是99年,現在是83年,你對餒。"},{"start":640.612,"end":667.001,"text":"院長反對這30多年來,論述都一樣,只稱這是剝削女性這個物化子宮。 他們一直用臆測沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。 從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策。 他們去拿印度會發生事情來累推台灣。 我請教院長,你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美的方向,歐美國家方向,還是去學習印度呢?"},{"start":668.462,"end":684.607,"text":"您覺得您的政策?我們要學習是進步但適合我國情的。我們適合印度嗎?我們是適合歐美國家還是印度?看什麼法規啊?有!我們還有可以向印度學習的喔?我還不知道有這種事情。印度的軟體就很盡情。"},{"start":686.107,"end":706.369,"text":"我要告訴院長,這份報告的協同主任叫做林智傑教授,他是非常優秀的法律學者,也是貴黨的同志,我很慶幸他成為本屆的信憑會委員。希望院長好好拜讀他的研究,也希望政府用科學、用法律來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人,尤其自認為是女權主義者。"},{"start":708.362,"end":729.217,"text":"邱部長,衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間,收集了一堆意見,你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣,可是這幾十年來醫學在進步,民情更開放啊。反對者同一套論述啊,就是在浪費虛職有需求人的生命跟青春。那叫做什麼呢?把人家死不了啦!"},{"start":732.802,"end":754.168,"text":"當初人工生殖立法的時候,反對者說待遇要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤,他們得逞了。那理委不是這樣講的喔,要一起做喔。現在子宮有病民是被凌遲了20幾年,好,行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法,因為老化嘛,少子化嘛。這群反對者又說待遇要跟單身跟同志脫鉤,又來了!"},{"start":758.744,"end":785.718,"text":"憑什麼子宮有病變女性就要一再被欺壓?一再被拋棄?捐精捐耳的問題會比代孕輕微嗎?單身同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎?我要重複20年前,我有感而發我留下一段很無奈的話,如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話,我說那就是政府欺負人民,健康人欺負有病的人,有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人,"},{"start":787.793,"end":811.694,"text":"部長你也說問題在重複嘛,你願意加速這個行政程序,您說過這樣的話在委員會執行的時候,院長您支持他的做法嗎?加速行政程序?當然支持,如果社會有共識一個好的公共政策,行政程序趕快推動,對大家好,當然支持。請稍等,我們剛剛已經對社會共識的有一段時間的討論,社會共識是有一個問號的,但是我已經用科學證據告訴你,社會是有共識的。"},{"start":812.094,"end":833.949,"text":"現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們擠腦,喊著要脫鉤,我必須再說,無論是代孕、單身或同志,民眾黨跟我的版本是全韓瓜的,我先說前提,如果真的要脫鉤,也是代孕優先,為什麼?如同高雄常跟副常科教授、蘭國中教授近日所言,"},{"start":834.389,"end":850.211,"text":"大陸已經奮鬥二十幾年了,來來回回太久了,大陸議題發展得比較成熟,而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題,如果擔心後案延遲前案,"},{"start":851.152,"end":851.973,"text":"我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法"},{"start":880.486,"end":892.273,"text":"有病人嗎?99年你來看看,院長你從政了一輩子,你也就任何意見的平台都可以操作,但是我給你的是科學性的民調,國家民調,這是民國99年國建署的民調,當時15年前就分別有53.5的人或60.3的人,"},{"start":898.616,"end":926.765,"text":"他支持因為子宮有問題而進行待遇前面是夫妻後面是女性他們就這樣問那基本上當時就是超過了就是是多數多數支持好102年國建署非常小心謹慎又做了第二次民調結果顯示有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止因為當時是當時是禁止的有85%計85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放待遇給有需要的人"},{"start":927.245,"end":932.75,"text":"那我們現在修法不就是在想辦法建立制度擬定配套嗎?"},{"start":932.75,"end":940.097,"text":"院長,當時這個政協有85%人支持,這是你國建署自己做的呢?"},{"start":940.097,"end":942.659,"text":"12年前的民調現在會倒退入嗎?"},{"start":942.659,"end":945.522,"text":"現在的民情是更開放喔,會倒退入嗎?"},{"start":945.522,"end":946.022,"text":"不會嘛!"},{"start":948.223,"end":967.663,"text":"國建署實在太認真了,104年又做了第三次民調,這次題目跟直接問有人認為台灣應該完全禁止代孕,無論任何情況任何配套都不允許代孕但也有人認為說,如果政府制定配套,允許某些人在特定條件上的規範下去委託代孕,請問你比較贊成哪一方?"},{"start":968.784,"end":997.162,"text":"結果有52%的人支持部分開放待遇,6.8%贊成完全開放,也就是我剛剛談的6成的人支持台灣也有待遇制度,還有18%的民眾認為他沒有意見,他可以接受,他沒有意見。 院長這是一個進步的法案加上80%的民意接受度,我不知道你們在猶豫什麼。 院長進步法案加8成的民意支持,你們在猶豫什麼?"},{"start":999.014,"end":1023.52,"text":"還有以前是人權問題嘛現在是國安部議題阿民進黨執政後2016年當時出征20萬人阿那現在呢每年降1萬阿去年13萬阿今年是農年阿去年的前8個月跟今年前8個月比院長你知道還少多少人嗎農年喔還比去年少你知道少多少人嗎你知道嗎我辦公室每天貼阿少3000人對今年要守住13萬很困難"},{"start":1024.758,"end":1049.146,"text":"院長,你不擔心王國滅種嗎?當然擔心啊,所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議啊。但是,不怕生、想養的人就是要趕快幫助他啊。我們鼓勵。 院長,你出生的時候一年四十幾萬喔,現在是十幾萬喔。好,我再強調一次,我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志,我主張全部納入。那但是為什麼以黃淑英為首這種脫鉤論?憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤?要被延後、要被處理?其實就是不準啊。"},{"start":1050.995,"end":1051.536,"text":"有辦過公民會議嗎?"},{"start":1051.536,"end":1053.118,"text":"有辦過全國性民調嗎?"},{"start":1053.118,"end":1054.62,"text":"如果都沒有,相比之下為什麼待遇要被脫鉤?"},{"start":1054.62,"end":1054.64,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":1068.874,"end":1084.102,"text":"如果衛福部最後的版本送出來沒有待遇,或是完整人工生殖法案,走不出行政院大門,要被姓評會再來擋住,我必須很遺憾地說,院長,那你就是讓台灣有姓評會在統治喔!你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔!"},{"start":1087.988,"end":1101.553,"text":"如果事情發生我就在這邊跟你申請,我今天要跟你申請我要成為性品會委員,我有資格嗎?你認為我有資格嗎?大院委員不需要成為性品會的委員,都可以向行政院表現...沒有沒有,我要擔任性品會委員,我有資格嗎?"},{"start":1102.945,"end":1105.348,"text":"職格遠遠超過,但是不需要,你不需要成為性平衛委員。"},{"start":1124.246,"end":1147.595,"text":"部長現在下來我想跟你,不過我還是要先請教院長,好,我們回到醫療體系,我覺得衛福部在執壞球在打假球,為什麼這樣講呢?整個醫療體系有一些重大的問題,每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧,都會有求於醫療這個服務,但是也不能因此相悅嘛,因為醫療改革越好越進步,那我們每個人都會受惠,那從某個角度來看為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話,這個打假球執壞球,"},{"start":1152.016,"end":1161.262,"text":"我想請教院長,您對於分級醫療了解嗎?大概有概念嗎?是,推行了很多年,但是並沒有落實。好,我們來看一下賴總統的態度。應該要落實大家醫的制度,也就是轉整分級醫療,能夠更加的落實。"},{"start":1179.492,"end":1207.837,"text":"謝謝,我們先停,因為他那邊講了很多話,他不只講一次,分級醫療,好,然後再來看下一張圖,柏中這是你餒,柏中這是你餒,你看你現在復仇零次餒,我當然想2018年推動分級醫療,現在淪為口號,現在分級醫療大崩壞餒,為什麼大崩壞我等一下把數字給你看,你都講給我,分級醫療,賴總統也要分級醫療,那個院長我請你看這張圖,別人不告訴你真相,我告訴你真相。"},{"start":1208.937,"end":1229.843,"text":"左邊這張圖是健保開辦1995年醫學中心13家區醫院48家地區醫院有568家這是一個非常穩健的正三角形的醫療架構非常穩但是健保執行20幾年之後你看長成這個樣子醫學中心越來越多區醫院大型區醫院越來越多但是地區醫院縮少到"},{"start":1231.058,"end":1259.616,"text":"三百一十三家幾乎腰斬好今年的醫院這個評鑑公布了醫學中心有二十六家我來告訴院長院長二十六家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽所謂的重大醫療設備全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方動輒幾億幾十億的這個是非常奇怪的現象然後民眾會往這裡跑然後收費也非常高昂沒有一個國家是這樣搞的"},{"start":1261.741,"end":1287.838,"text":"我這樣說,部長你好像心裡有數。如果繼續補考的話,未來的架構變什麼?請院長看最右邊這個圖。到底最後我們的醫療架構會變成一個倒三角形還是這個傘狀?總之它的底部就是萎縮了。那後遺症是什麼?受害者這些民眾不會清楚,但是意見都心知肚明。邱部長你一定知道啦。我想請教院長,院長你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢?禍首?"},{"start":1289.366,"end":1313.19,"text":"我跟委員報告我過去在議會或立法院的時代我比較接觸最多的是基層醫療協會如果這個轉診制度的落實起來的話基層醫療也會很堅強到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的做法為什麼我說衛福部要首當其衝因為你是主的單位"},{"start":1313.55,"end":1314.972,"text":"那民眾往這邊跑,啊怎麼辦?"},{"start":1337.214,"end":1365.216,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣,你擋得住嗎?要成立一個醫學中心,必須它有相當的人口,一定的條件。兩百萬人?對,兩百萬的人口一半。所以,我們只要12家就好了,現在我們26家,好嗎?院長,謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。院長,賴總統努力推動健康台灣,也召開過很多的研討會跟這個活動,變了60億,欸60億不是小數目,因為癌症病有推,努力好多年,好不容易拿到50億的那個今年拿到,明年拿到50億的癌症心藥基金,"},{"start":1365.836,"end":1388.511,"text":"那我目前收到健康臺灣的這個草案計畫裡面只寫的四個範疇優化醫療工作條件規劃多元人才培育導入智慧科技醫療社會責任醫療永續我想從大方向大院長簡單講您覺得這個經費怎麼分配你會集中在某一些醫院嗎就是我大概先了解您的初步想法這是大院長的政策"},{"start":1390.05,"end":1413.286,"text":"健康臺灣是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後,形成一個最後的深耕計畫,那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部去執行下去,這幾次沒有執行,你必須透過衛福部去執行下去。 我知道現在沒有細節,因為我也收不到,所以衛福部有沒有思考過,是不是要協助,我剛剛講,我先讓你看分級醫療已經長得很畸形了嘛,"},{"start":1413.846,"end":1415.588,"text":"委員可以問我報告一下,真的很感謝您關心健康台灣生產計畫"},{"start":1438.787,"end":1455.198,"text":"這個就是仿照我們頂大計,就是說頂尖大學五年五百億的一個計畫,能夠螺製更多的人才。可是那個有爭議喔,你到底要在菁英大學還是普遍的大學來支持?這種概念之下來引導,但是這個經會請放心,第一年"},{"start":1459.161,"end":1487.851,"text":"我跟那個委員一樣,我從小到大,就是到現在完全沒有改變,就是支持分級醫療,雙向轉整,加強primary health care,這是WHO的趨勢。你看我所有的論述,幾百篇論述,絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到一個最accessible的一個狀況。然後那個在深耕計畫裡面,即使你放心,"},{"start":1488.391,"end":1505.455,"text":"我們用盡了腦筋,他重要的是要有創新模式,希望過去的弊病,包括比如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力,我們有一個模式讓他戰力。我剛剛是請教院長大方向,但是那個四項範疇,優化醫療更多條件,就是說會納入哪些醫事員如何優化,你是加薪還是互併比?"},{"start":1513.796,"end":1542.205,"text":"這個賴總統承諾兩年內要互併筆要入法欸互併筆我們有一個什麼樣的KPI對不對這是第一個目標一個對優化工作條件嘛規劃多這個多元人才培育台灣121需要什麼我想院長您也可以部長一定要知道的院長你知道傳統科別內外負荷跟重症科是相對不足的五官科比較沒有壓力的五官科是很搶手的啊那你這個計畫能不能解決這個問題有也要也要我們缺的"},{"start":1543.243,"end":1547.367,"text":"社會責任跟醫療永續,要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳嘛。有包括這個部分。"},{"start":1568.104,"end":1568.364,"text":"是是是"},{"start":1583.547,"end":1608.17,"text":"可以嗎?就是說我是不是能夠有一個你們的這麼多錢60億,大概怎麼用?有什麼規劃?我可以在一個月內給一個月時間可以嗎?我們稍微了解嘛,幫助我們這個...發言委員,我們第一個就是四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點,我們最近已經炒你出來,然後他的經費分配會相當的平均,特別會折衷在"},{"start":1609.33,"end":1610.151,"text":"賴總統當時也說政府要講清楚解決什麼問題"},{"start":1636.582,"end":1636.922,"text":"臨時提案委員．陳昭姿"},{"start":1653.32,"end":1677.991,"text":"我們大概希望在一個日之內公布他的一個怎麼扣計劃哪個單位是可以扣計劃就開始要來接受大家的申請我們再來看醫院評鑑這是你現在的副手林市長講話2016年他講以下都是他講的話當年6千億的健保總和醫院佔了4千億許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看"},{"start":1679.151,"end":1700.147,"text":"拿到較多的總額分配,下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假、禁休。他還說,如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質,那請問篩報的急診,過來的醫護是在哪個平行世界?負責評鑑的醫策會,許多成員都是醫院的總監事。醫院評鑑每期名是改善醫療品質,實則是藉由玩高裝檢設備,瓜分上千億的健保大餅。林靜怡還要求當時的衛福部長蔣秉煌"},{"start":1706.312,"end":1707.574,"text":"立刻停止該年的評鑑。"},{"start":1716.169,"end":1744.631,"text":"如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題﹖表示他是有仔細在觀察﹖也設身有這樣的體驗﹖那他現在身為政務人員﹖他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題﹖解決這個問題﹖不是換位置換腦袋啊﹖不是換位置換腦袋﹖只是去做啊﹖右邊這張圖是護理師們穿的粉裝﹖護理師們﹖右邊標題寫平建前的暴風雨凝靜﹖我們可以帶我們護理師在平建前要很忙﹖很多作業要做﹖到底平建有沒有某個程度的造假﹖"},{"start":1748.259,"end":1752.711,"text":"請問邱部長,你覺得平健能夠改善醫療品質嗎?就這句話,你覺得平健可以改善醫療品質嗎?"},{"start":1754.622,"end":1783.656,"text":"我覺得評鑑一定會改善醫療品質跟安全。好,那就暫停。那就請你跟這個林氏好好溝通啊。他認為塞鮑爾急診過了的醫護是在哪個世界啊?如果評鑑真的可以改善醫療品質,這也不過,他自己講的啊。但是評鑑有他一定的縣市嘛,他就是打各個,他的項目也是全國的相關的專家想領濟出來的項目。再來這個醫院評鑑,我時間有限。評審委員、考察委員也都是我們獨高望重的前輩,所以已經很努力了。"},{"start":1784.996,"end":1810.788,"text":"三立新聞也講了,反正醫師在這評鑑做很多不實的紀錄等等等,批院訓練室漏息,所以我現在要求一個很重要,我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候,不能只公布分數跟榜單,我要求一份總評報告,這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響,包括各級醫院發展的變化,民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能財務衝擊,院長您覺得我這個要求合理嗎?醫院評鑑花那麼多資源,不能只有榜單跟名單,"},{"start":1811.408,"end":1811.668,"text":"所以我們時間到了"},{"start":1847.11,"end":1847.57,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員。謝謝左院長。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:43.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:43.410000+08:00","text":"謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:43.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:46.974000+08:00","text":"主席有請卓院長、邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:47.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:47.394000+08:00","text":"院長，邱部長，請備詢。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:56.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:56.391000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:56.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:36:57.312000+08:00","text":"院長好、部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:36:57.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:00.993000+08:00","text":"院長，總質詢期間辛苦你們了。不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:01.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:14.859000+08:00","text":"院長，當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候，當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮是反對的，但是因為那時候有國會的優勢，所以還是闖過關了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:15.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:31.745000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分可以說明，民進黨想推動什麼法案，大概就會過什麼樣的法案，所謂的社會共識，大概只有在不想推動什麼法案的時候，就會一直講沒有社會共識、沒有社會共識。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:32.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:33.085000+08:00","text":"為什麼我要這樣說呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:33.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:50.410000+08:00","text":"以代孕法案來說，3次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的，兩成不反對，就是有八成的民意基礎，但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識，所以我這裡要請教部長，請問什麼叫做共識？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:50.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:51.410000+08:00","text":"共識是誰的共識？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:51.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:52.410000+08:00","text":"請問天下有哪一件事是有共識的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:52.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:37:53.410000+08:00","text":"請院長回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:37:51.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:24.582000+08:00","text":"如果要以最近的例子來看，我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的，我們一直以這個當作國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子，這是一個很高的共識，至於說當初美國萊豬的問題，那是因為我們有科學的根據，以國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提才通過。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:24.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:25.582000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，萊豬的部分，我也理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:25.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:26.582000+08:00","text":"院長請看下一張投影片上的話，「對於生殖機能有障礙的病人，我們應該以更寬大包容的心來協助他們，而非只是一味要求他們放棄生育權利，強迫他們以領養來解決問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:26.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:27.582000+08:00","text":"捐精、捐卵及代孕應是設立『人工生殖法』的重要所在，如果這幾個方面沒有完整合理的規劃，則將失去立法意義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:24.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:25.883000+08:00","text":"」請問院長，您知道這段話出自何人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:56.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:57.850000+08:00","text":"請委員指教，我不知道這個話是……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:57.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:38:58.873000+08:00","text":"你不知道喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:38:58.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:02.180000+08:00","text":"那你認同這段話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:02.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:03.243000+08:00","text":"我基本上是認同的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:05.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:15.441000+08:00","text":"好，院長，這是賴清德立委在2002年提出的代孕人工生殖法案草案的提案說明，謝謝你剛好也是認同的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:15.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:24.004000+08:00","text":"但是很遺憾，5年後、2007年的人工生殖法案僅僅包含捐精、捐卵，還是排除了代孕，迄今二十幾年。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:25.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:28.626000+08:00","text":"當時的賴清德立委，現在已經是賴清德總統了，今年520國宴我親自向他再確認，我說：「賴總統，你還支持代孕嗎？","quality":0.535},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:28.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:29.626000+08:00","text":"」他告訴我，他支持代孕的態度一直都沒有改變，當時在我旁邊還有好幾位立委，包括貴黨的許智傑立委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:29.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:30.626000+08:00","text":"院長，行政院是否該將代孕解禁了呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:30.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:31.626000+08:00","text":"還是兩位，你們要繼續打臉賴立委、賴總統呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:31.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:39:32.626000+08:00","text":"是不是該解禁了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:39:29.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:15.571000+08:00","text":"報告委員，總統有告訴過我國宴那天你們講話的場景，他也認為在事實的情況下，臺灣社會已經朝向更開放、更進步、更多元的時代，是可以研究的，像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題，有其程度上的不同，我們可以持續的漸進。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:15.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:16.571000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長還有向您的上司了解他所說的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:16.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:17.571000+08:00","text":"這次衛福部推出的人工生殖法修法再次包含代孕，再次！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:16.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:17.432000+08:00","text":"請問院長，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:17.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:22.268750+08:00","text":"這是政府的版本，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:22.268750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:27.105500+08:00","text":"請衛福部先說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:27.105500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:31.942250+08:00","text":"不是，我要請教院長，因為您的態度很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:31.942250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:36.779000+08:00","text":"因為我們還沒有送到行政院，所以我先報告一下。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:36.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:37.720000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在我們截至7月13號已經結束預告期……","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:37.720000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:38.720000+08:00","text":"簡單說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:37.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:38.982000+08:00","text":"我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議，目前來講，還是把代理孕母部分放在裡面……","quality":0.469},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:38.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:43.440333+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，稍後再麻煩你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:43.440333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:47.898667+08:00","text":"院長知道總統的態度，這是非常重要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:47.898667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:52.357000+08:00","text":"預計11月底或12月送到行政院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:52.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:53.278000+08:00","text":"為什麼我認為院長的態度很重要？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:53.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:40:57.602000+08:00","text":"院長，其實多年來，每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法，都被行政院性平會委員連署反對，性平會！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:40:57.602000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:41:07.431500+08:00","text":"上面的資料是102年，當時共同連署人包括顧燕翎，他後來還當了臺北市社會局局長，他在電視上公然說不孕又不是病，怎麼會痛苦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:41:07.431500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:41:17.261000+08:00","text":"我當時在家裡看電視，很想回他：你爸爸、媽媽死了，你也沒有病，為什麼會痛苦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:41:17.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:41:46.805000+08:00","text":"今年3月，長期擔任性平會委員的黃淑英，在性平會的會前會封殺代孕這個議程，他不讓代孕進入議程討論。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:41:46.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:41:52.327000+08:00","text":"他近期告訴人家說，代孕是覬覦別人的子宮。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:41:52.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:00.991000+08:00","text":"我很想回他：你有種、有本事、有膽，就這樣跟等待器官捐贈的人說，你們在覬覦別人的器官。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:01.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:09.294000+08:00","text":"院長，我要講的是，行政院性平會怎麼會長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:12.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:33.984000+08:00","text":"二十幾年來，代孕經歷過多少公開的討論，2次公民會議、3次國家民調、超過10次的公聽會以及無數場的專家會議，還有委託大學做研究計畫，所有結論都不是5比5，而是幾乎一面倒的支持代孕解禁，這都是政府機關辦的，請問政府機關辦的有沒有公信力？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:35.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:35.905000+08:00","text":"院長，有沒有公信力？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:35.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:36.943667+08:00","text":"請委員理解，政府所有各類委員會裡面，如果有外界民間人士參與，我們都會廣泛多元邀集具各種聲音的不同代表。","quality":0.213},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:36.943667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:37.982333+08:00","text":"也有結論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:37.982333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:39.021000+08:00","text":"也有結論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:39.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:42:56.539000+08:00","text":"剛剛我提到，國健署的民調有大概八成的人接受代孕，幾位性平會的委員憑什麼否決八成民意？","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:42:57.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:02.745000+08:00","text":"憑什麼用個人的意識形態，扼殺不孕病人的一線生機？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:06.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:10.733000+08:00","text":"基本上，院長您的態度非常重要，是您在當家，還是性平會在當家？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:12.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:21.310000+08:00","text":"性平會當然是院內的一個委員會、一個組織，所有決議，行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:22.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:27.671000+08:00","text":"好，很好，院長，因為你上次回答我是人民在當家，我已經告訴你民意如此，這是有證據可考察的。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:28.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:48.056000+08:00","text":"然後我也可以告訴你一些內幕，林全在當院長的時候，這個性平會非常囂張，一直都很囂張，他很忍耐的聽了幾個小時；蘇院長的時候主持一次會議後，就說不用再召開了；賴院長主持的時候，曾經公開說：你們記好你們的角色，你們是諮議委員。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:48.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:52.117000+08:00","text":"院長，你剛剛也提出了，這些人是諮議委員，不是決策委員喔！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:52.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:53.178000+08:00","text":"是的、是的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:53.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:55.318000+08:00","text":"是性平會在統治臺灣嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:55.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:43:58.319000+08:00","text":"還是您在治理臺灣、賴總統在治理臺灣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:43:58.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:06.340000+08:00","text":"院長，我要你拿出魄力，不要讓性平會爬到你的頭上，國家有國家的立場。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:06.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:18.591000+08:00","text":"好，性平會不是太上皇機關，因為您是召集人，部長是委員，如果人工生殖法案這次再進到性平會，而他們又反對了，部長要不要捍衛你的版本？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:18.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:21.294000+08:00","text":"院長要不要捍衛政府的版本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:21.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:22.215000+08:00","text":"你要不要捍衛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:22.215000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:25.010000+08:00","text":"政府有版本啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:25.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:35.357000+08:00","text":"我一定會說明我們版本的意義、考量，以及會面面俱到，照顧到兒童、小孩權益，照顧到母親……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:35.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:36.498000+08:00","text":"你就說你會捍衛！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:36.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:37.679000+08:00","text":"你的部版你不捍衛，還當什麼部長！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:37.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:38.940000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:39.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:50.387000+08:00","text":"性平委員如果有過去的疑問，我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回復，希望能夠取得理解；如果有新發生的問題，我們共同來討論一個解決方式。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:50.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:53.449000+08:00","text":"人類的社會行為已經很久了，執政者有義務為自己的政策辯護。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:53.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:54.449000+08:00","text":"現在我跟陳菁徽委員變成像是執政黨的立委，到處在捍衛衛福部的版本，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:54.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:55.449000+08:00","text":"兩位是不是可以承諾……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:55.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:56.449000+08:00","text":"好的公共政策本來就應該朝野一起來推動啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:56.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:57.449000+08:00","text":"站穩立場，捍衛政策。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:57.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:58.449000+08:00","text":"還有我再問一下院長，請問一定要送性平會嗎？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:58.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:59.449000+08:00","text":"法案一定要送性平會嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:59.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:45:00.449000+08:00","text":"這是誰規定的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:45:00.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:45:01.449000+08:00","text":"我想這是一個時代演變的需求，已經有這種組織，我們會希望它更健全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:44:54.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:44:56.671000+08:00","text":"但我已經告訴你，有幾個變態的委員在裡面，講了那些不像話的話啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:45:26.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:45:35.168000+08:00","text":"院長，為代孕做辯護，我資料都幫你準備好了，衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議得到非常積極正面的結論，是積極正面，而不是5比5喔！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:45:36.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:45:39.332000+08:00","text":"國健署3次全國性民調也獲得壓倒性的支持。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:45:39.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:03.323000+08:00","text":"另外還有一份是民國88年衛生署研究報告，主持人是婦產科權威，他現在還在照顧病人，就是曾啟瑞教授，他的主題是「代理孕母國際現況分析」，研究結論是這樣的：「長期以來，我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律等各種觀點不斷的爭辯……我們經常忽略的是主角本身──委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻，……禁止不等於不會發生……」禁止不等於不會發生！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:03.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:07.886000+08:00","text":"「尤其代理孕母並非本質唯惡的行為。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:07.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:13.890000+08:00","text":"在禁止的狀況之下，只會使當事人夫妻在更沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母行為。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:13.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:16.371000+08:00","text":"這對當事人及其子女都不會更有利。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:16.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:17.372000+08:00","text":"」我也偷跑過啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:19.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:21.898000+08:00","text":"請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所作的結論。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:22.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:37.604000+08:00","text":"下一張也是民國99年衛生署還有一個研究主題是「世界各國代孕生殖政策討論」，結論很清楚，代孕爭執已久，「當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年，已難享有代孕政策開放的果實。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:37.604000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:46:40.585000+08:00","text":"」這說的就是我陳昭姿，即便代孕今天通過，我也沒辦法用，但是我背後站了很多人，根據專家評估大概有數千人苦苦等待這個法案。","quality":0.151},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:46:40.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:09.699000+08:00","text":"我們繼續看本研究的結論指出我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後，不孕人口逐漸增加，十幾年前就已經發現，代孕需求與日俱增，開放代孕已成世界潮流，希望本研究的成果有助於代孕法規及早制定施行，讓不孕夫妻得享有現代生殖醫學科技帶來的喜悅。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:09.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:10.899000+08:00","text":"院長，這是在99年，現在是113年年底！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:17.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:26.895000+08:00","text":"反對者三十多年來論述都一樣，指稱都是剝削女性、物化子宮，他們一直用臆測而沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:26.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:42.981000+08:00","text":"從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策，他們拿印度會發生的事情來類推臺灣，我請教院長，你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美國家的方向，還是會去學習印度呢？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:44.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:45.542000+08:00","text":"您覺得您的政策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:46.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:49.383000+08:00","text":"我們要學習的是進步但適合我國國情的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:49.383000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:50.664000+08:00","text":"進步國家的。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:50.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:52.664000+08:00","text":"我們適合印度嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:52.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:54.165000+08:00","text":"我們是適合歐美國家還是印度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:55.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:56.205000+08:00","text":"看什麼法規，這個……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:57.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:58.426000+08:00","text":"我們還有可以向印度學習的喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:58.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:47:59.286000+08:00","text":"我還不知道有這種事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:47:59.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:48:00.547000+08:00","text":"印度的軟體就很進步。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:48:02.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:48:22.349000+08:00","text":"我要告訴院長，這份報告的協同主持人叫做林志潔教授，他是非常優秀的法律學者，也是貴黨的同志，我很慶幸他成為本屆的性平會委員，希望院長好好拜讀他的這個研究，也希望政府用科學、用法律來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人，尤其自認為是女權主義者。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:48:24.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:48:44.156000+08:00","text":"邱部長，衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間，也蒐集了一堆意見，你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣，可是這幾十年來醫學在進步，民情更開放，反對者同一套論述就是在浪費虛擲有需求人的生命跟青春，那叫做什麼呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:48:44.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:48:45.197000+08:00","text":"別人的小孩死不完啦！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:48:48.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:48:57.525000+08:00","text":"當初人工生殖立法的時候，反對者說代孕要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤，他們得逞了，但賴立委不是這樣講的喔，他說要一起做喔！","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:48:58.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:10.148000+08:00","text":"子宮有病變，被凌遲了二十幾年，行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法，因為少子化，這群反對者又說代孕要跟單身、同志脫鉤，又來了！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:14.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:23.329000+08:00","text":"憑什麼子宮有病變的女性就要一再被欺壓、一再被拋棄，捐精捐卵的問題會比代孕輕微嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:23.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:28.611000+08:00","text":"單身、同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:28.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:41.698000+08:00","text":"我要重複二十年前我有感而發所留下一段很無奈的話，如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話，我說那就是政府欺負人民，健康人欺負有病的人，有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:43.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:50.259000+08:00","text":"部長，你也說問題一再重複，你願意加速這個行政程序，您說過這樣的話，在委員會質詢的時候。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:50.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:52.401000+08:00","text":"院長，您支持他的作法嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:52.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:53.361000+08:00","text":"加速行政程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:54.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:49:54.663000+08:00","text":"當然支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:49:55.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:00.067000+08:00","text":"如果社會有共識，一個好的公共政策，行政程序趕快推動，對大家好，當然執行。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:00.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:06.653000+08:00","text":"請稍等，我們剛剛已經對社會共識有一段時間的討論，社會共識是有一個問號的，但是我已經用科學證據告訴你……好。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:06.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:07.674000+08:00","text":"社會是有共識的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:08.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:13.178000+08:00","text":"現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們洗腦，喊著要脫鉤。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:13.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:20.663000+08:00","text":"我必須再說，無論是代孕、單身或同志，民眾黨跟我的版本是全含括的，全含括的喔！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:20.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:21.563000+08:00","text":"我先說前提。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:22.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:25.706000+08:00","text":"如果真的要脫鉤，也是代孕優先，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:25.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:43.247000+08:00","text":"如同高雄長庚婦產科藍國忠教授近日所言，代孕已經奮鬥二十幾年來來回回太久了，代孕議題發展得比較成熟，而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:43.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:44.247000+08:00","text":"如果擔心後案延遲前案，以下是藍教授講的，不是我講的，要優先的也是以病人的需求為優先，要儘速通過這個，讓不孕女性可以用代孕。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:44.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:45.247000+08:00","text":"因為所謂的代孕，就是子宮有病變，至於單身同志，這是比較社會性的議題，所以藍教授的意思是說，先病人的需求，再來談社會，當然同步最好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:45.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:46.247000+08:00","text":"他提出了這樣的論點，您接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:46.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:47.247000+08:00","text":"一個照顧病人那麼多的醫師。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:50:47.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:50:47.953000+08:00","text":"我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:51:16.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:51:16.766000+08:00","text":"病人嘛。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:51:18.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:51:26.592000+08:00","text":"99年，你來看看，院長，您從政了一輩子，您也知道任何意見的平臺都可以操作，但是我給你的是科學性的民調、國家民調。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:51:26.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:51:44.859000+08:00","text":"這是民國99年國健署的民調，15年前，當時就分別有53.5%的人或60.3%的人支持因為子宮有問題而進行代孕，前面是夫妻，後面是女性，他們就這樣問，基本上當時就是超過了，是多數支持。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:51:46.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:02.745000+08:00","text":"102年國健署非常小心、謹慎又做了第二次民調，結果顯示，有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止，因為當時是禁止的；有85%，記好，85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放代孕給有需要的人。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:03.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:08.750000+08:00","text":"那我們現在修法，不就是在想辦法建立制度、擬定配套嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:08.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:11.733000+08:00","text":"院長，什麼時候一個政見有85%的人支持？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:12.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:18.659000+08:00","text":"這是你國健署自己做的，12年前的民調，現在會倒退嚕嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:18.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:21.522000+08:00","text":"現在的民情是更開放，會倒退嚕嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:21.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:22.002000+08:00","text":"不會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:24.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:52:43.643000+08:00","text":"國健署實在太認真了，104年又做了第三次民調，這次題目更直接，題目是問：有人認為臺灣應該完全禁止代孕，無論任何情況、任何配套都不允許代孕；但也有人認為，如果政府制定配套，其實可以就允許某些人在特定條件與規範下去委託代孕，請問你比較贊成哪一方？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:52:44.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:03.136000+08:00","text":"結果有52%的人支持部分開放代孕，6.8%贊成完全開放，也就是我剛剛談的六成的人支持臺灣也有代孕制度，還有18%的民眾沒有意見，他可以接受，他沒有意見。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:03.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:09.820000+08:00","text":"院長，這是一個進步的法案，加上80%的民意接受度，我不知道你們在猶豫什麼耶！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:09.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:13.162000+08:00","text":"院長，進步的法案加八成的民意支持，你們在猶豫什麼？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:15.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:18.995000+08:00","text":"還有，以前是人權問題，現在是國安議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:19.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:30.818000+08:00","text":"民進黨執政後，2016年當時出生20萬人，現在每年降1萬，去年13萬，今年是龍年，去年前8個月跟今年前8個月比，院長，你知道還少多少人嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:30.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:33.538000+08:00","text":"龍年喔，還比去年少，你知道少多少人嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:33.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:34.299000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:34.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:35.219000+08:00","text":"我辦公室每天貼啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:36.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:36.959000+08:00","text":"少三千人。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:38.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:39.520000+08:00","text":"對，今年要守住13萬很困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:40.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:42.278000+08:00","text":"院長，你不擔心亡國滅種嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:42.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:43.499000+08:00","text":"當然擔心啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:43.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:45.800000+08:00","text":"所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:46.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:49.781000+08:00","text":"但是不怕生、想養的人，就是要趕快幫助他啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:49.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:50.181000+08:00","text":"我們鼓勵。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:50.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:53:52.902000+08:00","text":"院長，你出生的時候一年四十幾萬新生兒，現在是十幾萬。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:53:53.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:04.786000+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志，我主張全部納入，但是為什麼以黃淑英為首的這種脫鉤論，憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤、要被延後、要被處理，其實就是不准哪！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:04.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:05.890500+08:00","text":"難道這些女性、女女同志借精生子，會沒有爭議嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:05.890500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:06.995000+08:00","text":"難道他們生了小孩，一定就符合最佳兒童利益原則嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:06.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:07.536000+08:00","text":"有辦過公民會議嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:07.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:09.118000+08:00","text":"有辦過全國性民調嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:09.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:10.620000+08:00","text":"如果都沒有，相比之下，為什麼代孕要被脫鉤？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:10.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:10.640000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:24.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:40.082000+08:00","text":"如果衛福部最後送出來的版本沒有代孕，或是完整的人工生殖法案走不出行政院大門，要被性平會再來擋住，我必須很遺憾地說，院長，你就是讓臺灣由性平會在統治喔，你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:43.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:50.070000+08:00","text":"院長，如果事情發生，我就在這邊跟你申請，我今天要跟你申請我要成為性平會委員，我有資格嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:50.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:51.551000+08:00","text":"您認為我有資格嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:51.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:55.512000+08:00","text":"大院委員不需要成為性平會的委員，都可以向行政院表示……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:55.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:54:57.553000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，我要擔任性平會委員，我有資格嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:54:58.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:01.348000+08:00","text":"資格遠遠超過，但是不需要，你不需要成為性平會委員。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:01.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:07.647333+08:00","text":"我告訴你為什麼我有資格，因為你的師父謝長廷院長在2005年到2007年就聘我為性平會委員，我後來因為立院太忙了才沒參加。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:07.647333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:13.946667+08:00","text":"你現在已經是國會議員，就不需要成為性平會委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:13.946667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:20.246000+08:00","text":"當時叫婦權會，我已經擔任過，我當然有資格，但是我希望性平會好好做事，不要找一些心理變態的人在裡面搞。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:20.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:28.549000+08:00","text":"部長，接下來我想跟你討論，不過我還是要先請教院長，我們回到醫療體系，我覺得衛福部在擲壞球、打假球，為什麼這樣講？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:29.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:41.194000+08:00","text":"整個醫療體系有一些重大問題，每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧，都會有求於醫療服務，但是也不能因此鄉愿，因為醫療改革越好越進步，我們每個人都會受惠。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:42.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:43.334000+08:00","text":"從某個角度來看，為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:43.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:43.575000+08:00","text":"打假球、擲壞球！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:48.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:51.399000+08:00","text":"我想請教院長，你對於分級醫療瞭解嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:51.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:52.980000+08:00","text":"大概有概念嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:52.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:55.221000+08:00","text":"是，推行了很多年，但是並沒有落實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:55.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:55:55.641000+08:00","text":"關於分級醫療，我們來看一下賴總統的態度。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:55:55.641000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:15.492000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:15.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:19.053000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們先停，因為他那天講了很多話，他不只講了一次「分級醫療」。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:20.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:33.735000+08:00","text":"再來看下一張圖，部長，這是你和你現在的副手林次長，2018年想「推動分級醫療」，現在淪為口號，現在分級醫療大崩壞！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:33.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:34.135000+08:00","text":"為什麼大崩壞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:34.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:35.095000+08:00","text":"我等一下把數字給你看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:35.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:39.936000+08:00","text":"這些都是你講過的話，賴總統也提到要分級醫療。","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:40.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:56:57.020000+08:00","text":"院長，請你看這張圖，別人不告訴你真相，我告訴你真相，左邊這張圖是1995年健保開辦，當時醫學中心13家、區域醫院48家、地區醫院568家，這是一個非常穩健的正三角形醫療架構，非常穩。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:56:57.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:09.340000+08:00","text":"但是健保執行二十幾年之後，你看長成這個樣子，醫學中心越來越多，區域醫院、大型區域醫院也越來越多，但是地區醫院縮少到313家，幾乎腰斬。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:09.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:35.596000+08:00","text":"今年的醫院評鑑公布了，醫學中心有26家，我要告訴院長，26家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽，所謂的重大醫療設備，全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方，動輒幾億、幾十億的，這個是非常奇怪的現象，民眾會往這裡跑，收費也非常高昂，沒有一個國家是這樣搞的！","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:37.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:42.604000+08:00","text":"部長，我這樣說你應該心裡有數，如果繼續胡搞的話，未來的架構會變成什麼？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:42.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:49.949000+08:00","text":"請院長看最右邊這個圖，最後我們的醫療架構到底會變成一個倒三角形還是傘狀？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:49.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:54.292000+08:00","text":"總之它的底部就是萎縮了，這個後遺症是什麼？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:54.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:57:57.274000+08:00","text":"受害最深的民眾不會清楚，但是醫界都心知肚明。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:57:57.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:03.818000+08:00","text":"邱部長，你一定知道，我想請教院長，你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢？禍首？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:03.818000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:05.353000+08:00","text":"我想是整個醫療制度和健保制度……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:05.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:06.888000+08:00","text":"醫療制度就是衛福部啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:06.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:22.603000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我過去在議會或立法院的時代，我接觸最多的是基層醫療協會，如果這個轉診制度能夠落實起來，基層醫療也會很堅強，到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:22.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:25.666000+08:00","text":"基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的作法。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:26.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:28.189000+08:00","text":"為什麼我說衛福部首當其衝？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:28.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:40.701500+08:00","text":"因為你是主責單位，你想要當好人、當聖誕老公公，就破壞了醫療網計畫，人家要蓋醫院，你都讓它蓋。","quality":0.175},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:40.701500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:53.214000+08:00","text":"院長，我再跟你告狀一次，現在40%是空床，因為護理人員不夠，可是現在手邊有1.2萬床等著蓋、同意的，醫院繼續長大、醫學中心繼續長大、大醫院繼續長大，民眾往這邊跑，怎麼辦？","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:53.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:54.815000+08:00","text":"現在的狀況是這樣，你擋得住嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:54.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:55.815000+08:00","text":"擋不住！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:55.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:56.815000+08:00","text":"你擋不住，你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:58:54.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:58:59.159000+08:00","text":"要成立一個醫學中心，必須要有相當人口、一定條件。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:00.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:00.260000+08:00","text":"兩百萬人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:00.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:00.980000+08:00","text":"對，兩百萬人口以上。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:01.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:04.403000+08:00","text":"所以我們只要12家就好了，現在我們有26家，好嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:04.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:07.705000+08:00","text":"院長，謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:07.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:21.196000+08:00","text":"院長，賴總統努力推動健康臺灣，也召開過很多研討會及活動，編列了60億，60億不是小數目，因為癌症病友努力好多年，好不容易明年拿到50億的癌症新藥基金。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:21.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:32.863000+08:00","text":"我目前收到的健康台灣草案計畫裡面只寫著四個範疇：優化醫療工作條件、規劃多元人才培育、導入智慧科技醫療、社會責任醫療永續。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:33.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:40.788000+08:00","text":"從大方向來看，院長，簡單講，你覺得這個經費怎麼分配，你會集中在某一些醫院嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:40.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:44.491000+08:00","text":"我大概先了解你的初步想法，這是賴院長的政策。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:46.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T11:59:59.679000+08:00","text":"「健康台灣」是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後，最後形成的一個深耕計畫，那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部來執行下去，自己是沒有執行力，必須透過衛福部去執行。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T11:59:59.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:00:09.186000+08:00","text":"我知道現在沒有細節，因為我也收不到，所以衛福部有沒有思考過是不是要協助，我剛剛講因為那個……我先讓你看分級醫療已經長得很畸形了，那你是不是要有相當以上的譬如說一半的經費是拿來支持地區醫院、基層診所，甚至社區藥局，有更多的資源去聘優秀的醫事人員，就是你要照顧社區醫院跟基層，讓它底部要很穩啊！","quality":0.406},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:00:09.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:00:10.186000+08:00","text":"院長可以往這個方向處理嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:00:09.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:00:43.533000+08:00","text":"委員，我報告一下，真的很感謝您關心健康台灣深耕計畫，這個就是仿照頂大計畫，就是頂尖大學5年500億的計畫，能夠網羅更多的人才。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:00:43.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:00:47.996000+08:00","text":"不過那個有爭議，你到底要在菁英大學還是普遍大學來支持？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:00:48.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:19.810000+08:00","text":"這種概念之下來引……但是這個經費請放心，第一點，我跟委員一樣，我從小到現在完全沒有改變，就是支持分級醫療、雙向轉診，加強primary health care，這是WHO的趨勢，你看我所有的論述、幾百篇論述，絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到accessible的照顧。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:19.810000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:20.810000+08:00","text":"我今天讓你講，院長也都聽到了，會支持的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:20.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:36.293000+08:00","text":"然後在深耕計畫裡面，其實你放心，我們用盡了腦筋，它重要的是要有創新模式，希望過去的弊病，包括譬如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力，我們有一個模式讓它戰力強壯。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:36.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:40.514000+08:00","text":"部長，我剛剛是請教院長大方向，但是那四項範疇，優化醫療工作條件會納入哪些醫事人員？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:40.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:40.754000+08:00","text":"如何優化？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:41.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:41.435000+08:00","text":"是加薪還是護病比？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:49.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:51.537000+08:00","text":"賴總統承諾兩年內護病比要入法。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:52.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:53.097000+08:00","text":"護病比我們有一個目標……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:53.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:53.858000+08:00","text":"你有什麼樣的KPI？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:54.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:01:57.018000+08:00","text":"這是第一個，優化工作條件嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:01:57.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:00.920000+08:00","text":"規劃多元人才培育，臺灣醫療其實需要什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:00.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:07.722000+08:00","text":"我想院長你也……因為部長一定要知道的，院長，你知不知道傳統科別，內外婦兒跟重症科是相對不足的喔！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:08.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:14.364000+08:00","text":"五官科比較沒有壓力，五官科是很搶手的，那這個計畫能不能解決這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:14.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:16.444000+08:00","text":"有，也要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:16.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:17.444000+08:00","text":"我們缺的就是內外婦兒跟重症科醫師。對。","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:17.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:18.444000+08:00","text":"我們甚至……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:18.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:19.444000+08:00","text":"你們要往這個方向走。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:19.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:20.444000+08:00","text":"我們甚至也可以call一個計畫，如何人才培育，培育他願意到偏鄉，願意以社區為職志的醫療人員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:20.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:21.444000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:19.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:22.786000+08:00","text":"社會責任跟醫療永續，要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:22.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:23.347000+08:00","text":"有包括這個部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:23.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:30.587000+08:00","text":"不能都推給環境部啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:30.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:37.827000+08:00","text":"有包括這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:37.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:45.067000+08:00","text":"衛福部要自己做啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:45.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:52.307000+08:00","text":"能源管理、醫療廢棄物，現在醫療廢棄物跑出抗生素了，今天我沒有空處理，你是不是已經有這個方針跟指引讓醫院有一個方向走，你很忙耶！","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:52.307000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:02:59.547000+08:00","text":"部長，很多事要做，這個計畫很多事要做。是。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:02:59.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:00.408000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:00.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:09.957000+08:00","text":"就是我是不是能夠有一個……你們這麼多錢，60億大概怎麼用、有什麼規劃，我可以一個月內……給你一個月時間可以嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:09.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:10.697000+08:00","text":"我們稍微了解嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:11.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:11.298000+08:00","text":"幫助我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:12.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:12.839000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:12.839000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:13.900000+08:00","text":"了解，也可以讓我們監督。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:13.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:24.150000+08:00","text":"第一個，就四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點，我們最近已經草擬出來，然後它的經費分配會相當平均，特別會著重在社區整合型照顧、基層醫療分級，還有分級醫療怎麼樣創造一個模式，不要忘記臺灣過去在分級醫療的努力，大家也費了很多苦心，我們現在有81個很好的分級醫療體系，這都是我們的力量。","quality":0.336},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:24.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:25.330000+08:00","text":"我了解您是家醫出身背景，您對這個是很清楚，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:25.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:03:26.151000+08:00","text":"院長，賴總統當時也說，政府要講清楚要解決什麼問題、要達到什麼目標、需要多少經費、有多少民眾可以受益，他講得很清楚喔！","quality":0.373},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:03:26.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:09.700000+08:00","text":"所以目前我看這些計畫60億是看不到賴總統講的這些事情，所以我剛剛講，是不是一個月內讓我們了解健康台灣深耕計畫到底要怎麼做，有個方向，可以嗎？部長。","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:09.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:13.942000+08:00","text":"我們希望大概在一個月之內公布……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:15.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:15.743000+08:00","text":"一個月可以嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:15.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:16.743000+08:00","text":"都有在進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:16.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:17.743000+08:00","text":"一個月OK啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:17.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:18.743000+08:00","text":"我沒有說一個禮拜哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:18.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:19.743000+08:00","text":"我說一個月哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:15.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:21.025000+08:00","text":"公布怎麼call計畫、哪個單位可以call計畫，就開始要來接受大家的申請。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:21.025000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:22.025000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:21.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:38.794000+08:00","text":"我們再來看醫院評鑑，這是你現在的副手──林次長講的話，2016年他講的，以下都是他講的話，當年6,000億的健保總額，醫院占了4,000億，許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看，拿到較多的總額分配，下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:39.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:04:45.959000+08:00","text":"他還說，如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質，請問塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:04:46.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:03.574000+08:00","text":"負責評鑑的醫策會，許多成員都是醫院的董監事，醫院評鑑美其名是改善醫療品質，實則是藉由玩高裝檢設備瓜分上千億的健保大餅，林靜儀還要求當時的衛福部長蔣丙煌立刻停止該年的評鑑。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:03.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:07.871500+08:00","text":"院長，我要問的是院長，院長，你說他講得有沒有道理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:07.871500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:12.169000+08:00","text":"這是你的政務官。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:12.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:24.799000+08:00","text":"如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題，就表示他是有仔細在觀察，也設身有這樣的體驗，他現在身為政務人員，他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題、解決這個問題。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:24.799000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:25.799000+08:00","text":"去做啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:24.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:25.780000+08:00","text":"不是換位置換腦袋啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:26.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:27.581000+08:00","text":"不是換位置換腦袋，要去做啊。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:28.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:40.611000+08:00","text":"右邊這張圖是護理師們創立的粉專，標題寫「評鑑前的暴風雨寧靜」，我們可以知道護理師在評鑑前很忙，很多作業要做，到底評鑑有沒有某個程度地造假？","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:40.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:44.259000+08:00","text":"我們認為醫界心知肚明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:44.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:46.525000+08:00","text":"請問邱部長，你覺得評鑑能夠改善醫療品質嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:46.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:48.711000+08:00","text":"就這句話，你覺得評鑑可以改善醫療品質嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:50.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:05:53.764000+08:00","text":"我覺得評鑑一定可以改善醫療品質跟安全。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:05:54.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:00.347000+08:00","text":"那就暫停，就請你跟林次好好溝通，他認為塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:00.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:04.108000+08:00","text":"如果評鑑真的可以改善醫療品質，這些是他自己講的啊。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:04.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:12.633000+08:00","text":"但是評鑑有它一定的限制，它的項目也是全國相關的專家所擬具出來的項目。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:12.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:13.953000+08:00","text":"好，再來醫院評鑑，我時間有限……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:14.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:19.636000+08:00","text":"評審委員、考察委員也都是我們德高望重的前輩，已經很努力了。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:20.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:25.178000+08:00","text":"你看下一張簡報，三立新聞也講了，反正就是醫師在做評鑑時做很多不實的紀錄等等，批醫院評鑑是陋習。","quality":0.605},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:26.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:44.447000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要求一個很重要的，我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候，不能只公布分數跟榜單，我要求一份總評報告，這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響，包括各級醫院發展的變化、民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能的財務衝擊，院長，你覺得我這個要求合理嗎？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:44.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:47.468000+08:00","text":"醫院評鑑花那麼多資源，不能只有榜單跟名單，我要求有個總評報告，可以嗎？","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:47.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:48.468000+08:00","text":"院長，你覺得我這樣要求合理嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:48.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:49.468000+08:00","text":"如果能夠促進更專業的評鑑出來，改善醫院的水準跟素質，任何的革新建議都可以來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:49.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:50.468000+08:00","text":"我要一份報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:50.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:51.468000+08:00","text":"好，還是允許我最後一張簡報，這是我臺大醫院的朋友，他在那邊服務10年，每隔一段時間就會寄給我看臺大急診處溢滿溢出的狀況，最後一張投影片。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:47.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:47.648000+08:00","text":"陳委員，我們時間到了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:47.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:06:56.588500+08:00","text":"醫學中心，大家是……但是也不能把急診的病床都塞在正門大廳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:06:56.588500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:05.529000+08:00","text":"主席，你不肯給我再1分鐘？好。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:05.529000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:14.469500+08:00","text":"我們一直在努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:14.469500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:23.410000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長、院長，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:23.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:23.570000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:24.070000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:34.641429+08:00","text":"報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:34.941429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:42.655714+08:00","text":"下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-22T12:07:42.955714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-22T12:07:44.098571+08:00","text":"休息（12時7分）","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時36分）謝謝。主席有請卓院長、邱部長。"],["主席：院長，邱部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長好、部長好。院長，總質詢期間辛苦你們了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，當初蔡政府要開放萊豬進口的時候，當時有66%的民意因為食安的疑慮是反對的，但是因為那時候有國會的優勢，所以還是闖過關了。所以這個部分可以說明，民進黨想推動什麼法案，大概就會過什麼樣的法案，所謂的社會共識，大概只有在不想推動什麼法案的時候，就會一直講沒有社會共識、沒有社會共識。為什麼我要這樣說呢？以代孕法案來說，3次國家的民調平均有六成的民眾是贊成的，兩成不反對，就是有八成的民意基礎，但是近日幾位民進黨立委在委員會質詢的時候還是說沒有共識，所以我這裡要請教部長，請問什麼叫做共識？共識是誰的共識？請問天下有哪一件事是有共識的？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要以最近的例子來看，我覺得成立運動部的共識是很高的，我們一直以這個當作國會跟立法院以及全社會來做合作的一個很好的典範跟例子，這是一個很高的共識，至於說當初美國萊豬的問題，那是因為我們有科學的根據，以國際的標準也保障大家安全的前提才通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，萊豬的部分，我也理解。院長請看下一張投影片上的話，「對於生殖機能有障礙的病人，我們應該以更寬大包容的心來協助他們，而非只是一味要求他們放棄生育權利，強迫他們以領養來解決問題。捐精、捐卵及代孕應是設立『人工生殖法』的重要所在，如果這幾個方面沒有完整合理的規劃，則將失去立法意義。」請問院長，您知道這段話出自何人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教，我不知道這個話是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你不知道喔？那你認同這段話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我基本上是認同的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，院長，這是賴清德立委在2002年提出的代孕人工生殖法案草案的提案說明，謝謝你剛好也是認同的。但是很遺憾，5年後、2007年的人工生殖法案僅僅包含捐精、捐卵，還是排除了代孕，迄今二十幾年。當時的賴清德立委，現在已經是賴清德總統了，今年520國宴我親自向他再確認，我說：「賴總統，你還支持代孕嗎？」他告訴我，他支持代孕的態度一直都沒有改變，當時在我旁邊還有好幾位立委，包括貴黨的許智傑立委。院長，行政院是否該將代孕解禁了呢？還是兩位，你們要繼續打臉賴立委、賴總統呢？是不是該解禁了？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統有告訴過我國宴那天你們講話的場景，他也認為在事實的情況下，臺灣社會已經朝向更開放、更進步、更多元的時代，是可以研究的，像人工生殖跟代理孕母這兩個議題，有其程度上的不同，我們可以持續的漸進。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長還有向您的上司了解他所說的話。這次衛福部推出的人工生殖法修法再次包含代孕，再次！請問院長，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？這是政府的版本，您支持衛福部的版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請衛福部先說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，我要請教院長，因為您的態度很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們還沒有送到行政院，所以我先報告一下。跟委員報告，現在我們截至7月13號已經結束預告期……"],["陳委員昭姿：簡單說明。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有開了大概十幾次的專家會議，目前來講，還是把代理孕母部分放在裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝，稍後再麻煩你。院長知道總統的態度，這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長泰源：預計11月底或12月送到行政院。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼我認為院長的態度很重要？院長，其實多年來，每次衛福部都有提出代孕的修法，都被行政院性平會委員連署反對，性平會！上面的資料是102年，當時共同連署人包括顧燕翎，他後來還當了臺北市社會局局長，他在電視上公然說不孕又不是病，怎麼會痛苦！我當時在家裡看電視，很想回他：你爸爸、媽媽死了，你也沒有病，為什麼會痛苦？今年3月，長期擔任性平會委員的黃淑英，在性平會的會前會封殺代孕這個議程，他不讓代孕進入議程討論。他近期告訴人家說，代孕是覬覦別人的子宮。我很想回他：你有種、有本事、有膽，就這樣跟等待器官捐贈的人說，你們在覬覦別人的器官。","院長，我要講的是，行政院性平會怎麼會長期聘了這幾位態度偏激、心理變態的委員呢？二十幾年來，代孕經歷過多少公開的討論，2次公民會議、3次國家民調、超過10次的公聽會以及無數場的專家會議，還有委託大學做研究計畫，所有結論都不是5比5，而是幾乎一面倒的支持代孕解禁，這都是政府機關辦的，請問政府機關辦的有沒有公信力？院長，有沒有公信力？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員理解，政府所有各類委員會裡面，如果有外界民間人士參與，我們都會廣泛多元邀集具各種聲音的不同代表。"],["陳委員昭姿：也有結論嘛！也有結論嘛！剛剛我提到，國健署的民調有大概八成的人接受代孕，幾位性平會的委員憑什麼否決八成民意？憑什麼用個人的意識形態，扼殺不孕病人的一線生機？基本上，院長您的態度非常重要，是您在當家，還是性平會在當家？"],["卓院長榮泰：性平會當然是院內的一個委員會、一個組織，所有決議，行政院有自己政策上的目標跟決定。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，很好，院長，因為你上次回答我是人民在當家，我已經告訴你民意如此，這是有證據可考察的。然後我也可以告訴你一些內幕，林全在當院長的時候，這個性平會非常囂張，一直都很囂張，他很忍耐的聽了幾個小時；蘇院長的時候主持一次會議後，就說不用再召開了；賴院長主持的時候，曾經公開說：你們記好你們的角色，你們是諮議委員。院長，你剛剛也提出了，這些人是諮議委員，不是決策委員喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的、是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：是性平會在統治臺灣嗎？還是您在治理臺灣、賴總統在治理臺灣？院長，我要你拿出魄力，不要讓性平會爬到你的頭上，國家有國家的立場。好，性平會不是太上皇機關，因為您是召集人，部長是委員，如果人工生殖法案這次再進到性平會，而他們又反對了，部長要不要捍衛你的版本？院長要不要捍衛政府的版本？你要不要捍衛？政府有版本啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我一定會說明我們版本的意義、考量，以及會面面俱到，照顧到兒童、小孩權益，照顧到母親……"],["陳委員昭姿：你就說你會捍衛！你的部版你不捍衛，還當什麼部長！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：性平委員如果有過去的疑問，我想我們會用現在的專業跟現在的發展來回復，希望能夠取得理解；如果有新發生的問題，我們共同來討論一個解決方式。"],["陳委員昭姿：人類的社會行為已經很久了，執政者有義務為自己的政策辯護。現在我跟陳菁徽委員變成像是執政黨的立委，到處在捍衛衛福部的版本，對不對？兩位是不是可以承諾……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的公共政策本來就應該朝野一起來推動啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：站穩立場，捍衛政策。還有我再問一下院長，請問一定要送性平會嗎？法案一定要送性平會嗎？這是誰規定的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想這是一個時代演變的需求，已經有這種組織，我們會希望它更健全。"],["陳委員昭姿：但我已經告訴你，有幾個變態的委員在裡面，講了那些不像話的話啊！院長，為代孕做辯護，我資料都幫你準備好了，衛生署、國健署共兩次公民會議得到非常積極正面的結論，是積極正面，而不是5比5喔！國健署3次全國性民調也獲得壓倒性的支持。","另外還有一份是民國88年衛生署研究報告，主持人是婦產科權威，他現在還在照顧病人，就是曾啟瑞教授，他的主題是「代理孕母國際現況分析」，研究結論是這樣的：「長期以來，我們從宗教、倫理、女權、法律等各種觀點不斷的爭辯……我們經常忽略的是主角本身──委託夫妻和代理孕母夫妻，……禁止不等於不會發生……」禁止不等於不會發生！「尤其代理孕母並非本質唯惡的行為。在禁止的狀況之下，只會使當事人夫妻在更沒有保障的情況下秘密進行代理孕母行為。這對當事人及其子女都不會更有利。」我也偷跑過啊！請記得這個是衛生署的研究計畫所作的結論。","下一張也是民國99年衛生署還有一個研究主題是「世界各國代孕生殖政策討論」，結論很清楚，代孕爭執已久，「當初開始推動代孕的不孕者經歷這麼多年，已難享有代孕政策開放的果實。」這說的就是我陳昭姿，即便代孕今天通過，我也沒辦法用，但是我背後站了很多人，根據專家評估大概有數千人苦苦等待這個法案。我們繼續看本研究的結論指出我國人民結婚年齡不斷延後，不孕人口逐漸增加，十幾年前就已經發現，代孕需求與日俱增，開放代孕已成世界潮流，希望本研究的成果有助於代孕法規及早制定施行，讓不孕夫妻得享有現代生殖醫學科技帶來的喜悅。院長，這是在99年，現在是113年年底！反對者三十多年來論述都一樣，指稱都是剝削女性、物化子宮，他們一直用臆測而沒有發生的事情來扼殺真實存在的不孕夫妻的一線生機。從衛生署到衛福部都研究了各國的政策，他們拿印度會發生的事情來類推臺灣，我請教院長，你覺得我們國家的法規會比較走歐美國家的方向，還是會去學習印度呢？您覺得您的政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要學習的是進步但適合我國國情的。"],["陳委員昭姿：進步國家的。我們適合印度嗎？我們是適合歐美國家還是印度？"],["卓院長榮泰：看什麼法規，這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們還有可以向印度學習的喔？我還不知道有這種事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：印度的軟體就很進步。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要告訴院長，這份報告的協同主持人叫做林志潔教授，他是非常優秀的法律學者，也是貴黨的同志，我很慶幸他成為本屆的性平會委員，希望院長好好拜讀他的這個研究，也希望政府用科學、用法律來擺脫那群有被害妄想症的女人，尤其自認為是女權主義者。","邱部長，衛福部的草案已經擬了一段時間，也蒐集了一堆意見，你也承認它跟過去的想法都一樣，可是這幾十年來醫學在進步，民情更開放，反對者同一套論述就是在浪費虛擲有需求人的生命跟青春，那叫做什麼呢？別人的小孩死不完啦！當初人工生殖立法的時候，反對者說代孕要跟捐精捐卵脫鉤，他們得逞了，但賴立委不是這樣講的喔，他說要一起做喔！子宮有病變，被凌遲了二十幾年，行政院、立法院如今都要重新再修法，因為少子化，這群反對者又說代孕要跟單身、同志脫鉤，又來了！憑什麼子宮有病變的女性就要一再被欺壓、一再被拋棄，捐精捐卵的問題會比代孕輕微嗎？單身、同志產生的問題會比代孕夫妻更輕微嗎？我要重複二十年前我有感而發所留下一段很無奈的話，如果再繼續阻擋代孕的話，我說那就是政府欺負人民，健康人欺負有病的人，有子宮的人欺負沒有子宮的人。部長，你也說問題一再重複，你願意加速這個行政程序，您說過這樣的話，在委員會質詢的時候。院長，您支持他的作法嗎？加速行政程序。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然支持。如果社會有共識，一個好的公共政策，行政程序趕快推動，對大家好，當然執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：請稍等，我們剛剛已經對社會共識有一段時間的討論，社會共識是有一個問號的，但是我已經用科學證據告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：社會是有共識的。現在有一群團體跟民進黨立委被黃淑英們洗腦，喊著要脫鉤。我必須再說，無論是代孕、單身或同志，民眾黨跟我的版本是全含括的，全含括的喔！我先說前提。如果真的要脫鉤，也是代孕優先，為什麼？如同高雄長庚婦產科藍國忠教授近日所言，代孕已經奮鬥二十幾年來來回回太久了，代孕議題發展得比較成熟，而同性伴侶跟單身是這幾年來出現的社會議題。如果擔心後案延遲前案，以下是藍教授講的，不是我講的，要優先的也是以病人的需求為優先，要儘速通過這個，讓不孕女性可以用代孕。因為所謂的代孕，就是子宮有病變，至於單身同志，這是比較社會性的議題，所以藍教授的意思是說，先病人的需求，再來談社會，當然同步最好。他提出了這樣的論點，您接受嗎？一個照顧病人那麼多的醫師。"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然會尊重專業醫師的看法。"],["陳委員昭姿：病人嘛。99年，你來看看，院長，您從政了一輩子，您也知道任何意見的平臺都可以操作，但是我給你的是科學性的民調、國家民調。這是民國99年國健署的民調，15年前，當時就分別有53.5%的人或60.3%的人支持因為子宮有問題而進行代孕，前面是夫妻，後面是女性，他們就這樣問，基本上當時就是超過了，是多數支持。","102年國健署非常小心、謹慎又做了第二次民調，結果顯示，有68%的民眾他不贊成繼續完全禁止，因為當時是禁止的；有85%，記好，85%的民眾贊成在有配套情況下開放代孕給有需要的人。那我們現在修法，不就是在想辦法建立制度、擬定配套嗎？院長，什麼時候一個政見有85%的人支持？這是你國健署自己做的，12年前的民調，現在會倒退嚕嗎？現在的民情是更開放，會倒退嚕嗎？不會嘛！","國健署實在太認真了，104年又做了第三次民調，這次題目更直接，題目是問：有人認為臺灣應該完全禁止代孕，無論任何情況、任何配套都不允許代孕；但也有人認為，如果政府制定配套，其實可以就允許某些人在特定條件與規範下去委託代孕，請問你比較贊成哪一方？結果有52%的人支持部分開放代孕，6.8%贊成完全開放，也就是我剛剛談的六成的人支持臺灣也有代孕制度，還有18%的民眾沒有意見，他可以接受，他沒有意見。","院長，這是一個進步的法案，加上80%的民意接受度，我不知道你們在猶豫什麼耶！院長，進步的法案加八成的民意支持，你們在猶豫什麼？","還有，以前是人權問題，現在是國安議題。民進黨執政後，2016年當時出生20萬人，現在每年降1萬，去年13萬，今年是龍年，去年前8個月跟今年前8個月比，院長，你知道還少多少人嗎？龍年喔，還比去年少，你知道少多少人嗎？你知道嗎？我辦公室每天貼啊！少三千人。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，今年要守住13萬很困難。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，你不擔心亡國滅種嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然擔心啊！所以我們開了好幾次人口對策會議。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是不怕生、想養的人，就是要趕快幫助他啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們鼓勵。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，你出生的時候一年四十幾萬新生兒，現在是十幾萬。我再強調一次，我的版本是包含代孕、單身跟所有同志，我主張全部納入，但是為什麼以黃淑英為首的這種脫鉤論，憑什麼代孕要被脫鉤、要被延後、要被處理，其實就是不准哪！難道這些女性、女女同志借精生子，會沒有爭議嗎？難道他們生了小孩，一定就符合最佳兒童利益原則嗎？有辦過公民會議嗎？有辦過全國性民調嗎？如果都沒有，相比之下，為什麼代孕要被脫鉤？為什麼？如果衛福部最後送出來的版本沒有代孕，或是完整的人工生殖法案走不出行政院大門，要被性平會再來擋住，我必須很遺憾地說，院長，你就是讓臺灣由性平會在統治喔，你們就是打臉賴清德立委、賴清德總統喔！院長，如果事情發生，我就在這邊跟你申請，我今天要跟你申請我要成為性平會委員，我有資格嗎？您認為我有資格嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大院委員不需要成為性平會的委員，都可以向行政院表示……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有、沒有，我要擔任性平會委員，我有資格嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：資格遠遠超過，但是不需要，你不需要成為性平會委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你為什麼我有資格，因為你的師父謝長廷院長在2005年到2007年就聘我為性平會委員，我後來因為立院太忙了才沒參加。"],["卓院長榮泰：你現在已經是國會議員，就不需要成為性平會委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：當時叫婦權會，我已經擔任過，我當然有資格，但是我希望性平會好好做事，不要找一些心理變態的人在裡面搞。","部長，接下來我想跟你討論，不過我還是要先請教院長，我們回到醫療體系，我覺得衛福部在擲壞球、打假球，為什麼這樣講？整個醫療體系有一些重大問題，每個人終身都會受到醫療照顧，都會有求於醫療服務，但是也不能因此鄉愿，因為醫療改革越好越進步，我們每個人都會受惠。從某個角度來看，為什麼我會講出這麼嚴重的話？打假球、擲壞球！我想請教院長，你對於分級醫療瞭解嗎？大概有概念嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，推行了很多年，但是並沒有落實。"],["陳委員昭姿：關於分級醫療，我們來看一下賴總統的態度。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝，我們先停，因為他那天講了很多話，他不只講了一次「分級醫療」。","再來看下一張圖，部長，這是你和你現在的副手林次長，2018年想「推動分級醫療」，現在淪為口號，現在分級醫療大崩壞！為什麼大崩壞？我等一下把數字給你看。這些都是你講過的話，賴總統也提到要分級醫療。","院長，請你看這張圖，別人不告訴你真相，我告訴你真相，左邊這張圖是1995年健保開辦，當時醫學中心13家、區域醫院48家、地區醫院568家，這是一個非常穩健的正三角形醫療架構，非常穩。但是健保執行二十幾年之後，你看長成這個樣子，醫學中心越來越多，區域醫院、大型區域醫院也越來越多，但是地區醫院縮少到313家，幾乎腰斬。今年的醫院評鑑公布了，醫學中心有26家，我要告訴院長，26家醫學中心都在做軍備競賽，所謂的重大醫療設備，全世界都說臺灣是密度最高的地方，動輒幾億、幾十億的，這個是非常奇怪的現象，民眾會往這裡跑，收費也非常高昂，沒有一個國家是這樣搞的！","部長，我這樣說你應該心裡有數，如果繼續胡搞的話，未來的架構會變成什麼？請院長看最右邊這個圖，最後我們的醫療架構到底會變成一個倒三角形還是傘狀？總之它的底部就是萎縮了，這個後遺症是什麼？受害最深的民眾不會清楚，但是醫界都心知肚明。邱部長，你一定知道，我想請教院長，你覺得罪魁禍首是誰呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：禍首？我想是整個醫療制度和健保制度……"],["陳委員昭姿：醫療制度就是衛福部啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我過去在議會或立法院的時代，我接觸最多的是基層醫療協會，如果這個轉診制度能夠落實起來，基層醫療也會很堅強，到社區裡面的診所也會很堅強。"],["陳委員昭姿：基層醫療一定是支持我們分級醫療的作法。為什麼我說衛福部首當其衝？因為你是主責單位，你想要當好人、當聖誕老公公，就破壞了醫療網計畫，人家要蓋醫院，你都讓它蓋。院長，我再跟你告狀一次，現在40%是空床，因為護理人員不夠，可是現在手邊有1.2萬床等著蓋、同意的，醫院繼續長大、醫學中心繼續長大、大醫院繼續長大，民眾往這邊跑，怎麼辦？現在的狀況是這樣，你擋得住嗎？擋不住！你擋不住，你……"],["卓院長榮泰：要成立一個醫學中心，必須要有相當人口、一定條件。"],["陳委員昭姿：兩百萬人……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，兩百萬人口以上。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以我們只要12家就好了，現在我們有26家，好嗎？院長，謝謝你也理解這個醫療網計畫的規範。院長，賴總統努力推動健康臺灣，也召開過很多研討會及活動，編列了60億，60億不是小數目，因為癌症病友努力好多年，好不容易明年拿到50億的癌症新藥基金。我目前收到的健康台灣草案計畫裡面只寫著四個範疇：優化醫療工作條件、規劃多元人才培育、導入智慧科技醫療、社會責任醫療永續。從大方向來看，院長，簡單講，你覺得這個經費怎麼分配，你會集中在某一些醫院嗎？我大概先了解你的初步想法，這是賴院長的政策。"],["卓院長榮泰：「健康台灣」是從選舉前一個大型論壇集合大家的意見之後，最後形成的一個深耕計畫，那深耕計畫當然要透過衛福部來執行下去，自己是沒有執行力，必須透過衛福部去執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道現在沒有細節，因為我也收不到，所以衛福部有沒有思考過是不是要協助，我剛剛講因為那個……我先讓你看分級醫療已經長得很畸形了，那你是不是要有相當以上的譬如說一半的經費是拿來支持地區醫院、基層診所，甚至社區藥局，有更多的資源去聘優秀的醫事人員，就是你要照顧社區醫院跟基層，讓它底部要很穩啊！院長可以往這個方向處理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：委員，我報告一下，真的很感謝您關心健康台灣深耕計畫，這個就是仿照頂大計畫，就是頂尖大學5年500億的計畫，能夠網羅更多的人才。"],["陳委員昭姿：不過那個有爭議，你到底要在菁英大學還是普遍大學來支持？"],["邱部長泰源：這種概念之下來引……但是這個經費請放心，第一點，我跟委員一樣，我從小到現在完全沒有改變，就是支持分級醫療、雙向轉診，加強primary health care，這是WHO的趨勢，你看我所有的論述、幾百篇論述，絕對都是想辦法要達到讓人民能夠得到accessible的照顧。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天讓你講，院長也都聽到了，會支持的。"],["邱部長泰源：然後在深耕計畫裡面，其實你放心，我們用盡了腦筋，它重要的是要有創新模式，希望過去的弊病，包括譬如說基層醫療沒有辦法發揮戰力，我們有一個模式讓它戰力強壯。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我剛剛是請教院長大方向，但是那四項範疇，優化醫療工作條件會納入哪些醫事人員？如何優化？是加薪還是護病比？賴總統承諾兩年內護病比要入法。"],["卓院長榮泰：護病比我們有一個目標……"],["陳委員昭姿：你有什麼樣的KPI？這是第一個，優化工作條件嘛！規劃多元人才培育，臺灣醫療其實需要什麼？我想院長你也……因為部長一定要知道的，院長，你知不知道傳統科別，內外婦兒跟重症科是相對不足的喔！五官科比較沒有壓力，五官科是很搶手的，那這個計畫能不能解決這個問題？"],["邱部長泰源：有，也要……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們缺的就是內外婦兒跟重症科醫師。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱部長泰源：我們甚至……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們要往這個方向走。"],["邱部長泰源：我們甚至也可以call一個計畫，如何人才培育，培育他願意到偏鄉，願意以社區為職志的醫療人員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。社會責任跟醫療永續，要談永續就要想好怎麼幫醫院減碳嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：有包括這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：不能都推給環境部啦！"],["邱部長泰源：有包括這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：衛福部要自己做啦！能源管理、醫療廢棄物，現在醫療廢棄物跑出抗生素了，今天我沒有空處理，你是不是已經有這個方針跟指引讓醫院有一個方向走，你很忙耶！部長，很多事要做，這個計畫很多事要做。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：可以嗎？就是我是不是能夠有一個……你們這麼多錢，60億大概怎麼用、有什麼規劃，我可以一個月內……給你一個月時間可以嗎？我們稍微了解嘛！幫助我們……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：了解，也可以讓我們監督。"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，就四大範疇裡面的各個計畫重點，我們最近已經草擬出來，然後它的經費分配會相當平均，特別會著重在社區整合型照顧、基層醫療分級，還有分級醫療怎麼樣創造一個模式，不要忘記臺灣過去在分級醫療的努力，大家也費了很多苦心，我們現在有81個很好的分級醫療體系，這都是我們的力量。"],["陳委員昭姿：我了解您是家醫出身背景，您對這個是很清楚，謝謝部長。院長，賴總統當時也說，政府要講清楚要解決什麼問題、要達到什麼目標、需要多少經費、有多少民眾可以受益，他講得很清楚喔！所以目前我看這些計畫60億是看不到賴總統講的這些事情，所以我剛剛講，是不是一個月內讓我們了解健康台灣深耕計畫到底要怎麼做，有個方向，可以嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望大概在一個月之內公布……"],["陳委員昭姿：一個月可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：都有在進行。"],["陳委員昭姿：一個月OK啊！我沒有說一個禮拜哦！我說一個月哦！"],["邱部長泰源：公布怎麼call計畫、哪個單位可以call計畫，就開始要來接受大家的申請。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。我們再來看醫院評鑑，這是你現在的副手──林次長講的話，2016年他講的，以下都是他講的話，當年6,000億的健保總額，醫院占了4,000億，許多醫院為了讓5月的評鑑成績好看，拿到較多的總額分配，下令醫護人員在評鑑期間要禁止休息、休假。他還說，如果評鑑真的在改善醫療品質，請問塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？負責評鑑的醫策會，許多成員都是醫院的董監事，醫院評鑑美其名是改善醫療品質，實則是藉由玩高裝檢設備瓜分上千億的健保大餅，林靜儀還要求當時的衛福部長蔣丙煌立刻停止該年的評鑑。院長，我要問的是院長，院長，你說他講得有沒有道理？這是你的政務官。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果他是在立法委員任內看到這些問題，就表示他是有仔細在觀察，也設身有這樣的體驗，他現在身為政務人員，他應該有責任跟能力去面對這個問題、解決這個問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：去做啊！不是換位置換腦袋啊！不是換位置換腦袋，要去做啊。右邊這張圖是護理師們創立的粉專，標題寫「評鑑前的暴風雨寧靜」，我們可以知道護理師在評鑑前很忙，很多作業要做，到底評鑑有沒有某個程度地造假？我們認為醫界心知肚明。請問邱部長，你覺得評鑑能夠改善醫療品質嗎？就這句話，你覺得評鑑可以改善醫療品質嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得評鑑一定可以改善醫療品質跟安全。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就暫停，就請你跟林次好好溝通，他認為塞爆的急診、過勞的醫護是在哪個平行世界？如果評鑑真的可以改善醫療品質，這些是他自己講的啊。"],["邱部長泰源：但是評鑑有它一定的限制，它的項目也是全國相關的專家所擬具出來的項目。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，再來醫院評鑑，我時間有限……"],["邱部長泰源：評審委員、考察委員也都是我們德高望重的前輩，已經很努力了。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看下一張簡報，三立新聞也講了，反正就是醫師在做評鑑時做很多不實的紀錄等等，批醫院評鑑是陋習。所以我現在要求一個很重要的，我要求醫策會在每回醫院評鑑的時候，不能只公布分數跟榜單，我要求一份總評報告，這個總評報告對於整體醫療的分析跟影響，包括各級醫院發展的變化、民眾就醫行為的可能改變以及可能的財務衝擊，院長，你覺得我這個要求合理嗎？醫院評鑑花那麼多資源，不能只有榜單跟名單，我要求有個總評報告，可以嗎？院長，你覺得我這樣要求合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠促進更專業的評鑑出來，改善醫院的水準跟素質，任何的革新建議都可以來討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要一份報告。","好，還是允許我最後一張簡報，這是我臺大醫院的朋友，他在那邊服務10年，每隔一段時間就會寄給我看臺大急診處溢滿溢出的狀況，最後一張投影片。"],["主席：陳委員，我們時間到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：醫學中心，大家是……但是也不能把急診的病床都塞在正門大廳。主席，你不肯給我再1分鐘？好。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一直在努力。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長、院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時7分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}