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對不對那現在你們是採取跟世界接軌的非常開放的態度 是不是我們不預設任何立場 因為這樣的是 各界對於這樣的施設技術市長 卓院長接受彭博的專訪他提起喔"},{"start":122.924,"end":145.415,"text":"他已經提了他竟然會提起你是經濟部是最重要的幕僚長方向應該跟行政院長的方向是一樣的嘛是不是?因為我們有在關注各項跟核能有關的這樣的一個發電的科技所以你認不認同卓院長所說的也就是說新核能科技的態度是非常開放"},{"start":146.505,"end":172.896,"text":"對,我們目前是用開放的態度在面對這個問題是非常開放嘛這跟卓院長同一部的嘛之前我們一直說經濟部長次長在這裡經濟部長要上任的時候說核能是一個乾淨的能源他這麼說接下來我們要求說那麼核二、核三是不是可以研議但是拿了一部法叫做什麼環境基本法第23條"},{"start":174.994,"end":196.644,"text":"拿了這個法來做阻擋牆那請教次長您剛才說的也跟卓院長的論點一樣新核能的科技的態度我們政府因為你是經濟部那麼政府是非常開放那你們是不是會將環境基本法的第23條會來修請教"},{"start":200.816,"end":229.969,"text":"那環境基本法的那個主管機關應該是在那個環境部這邊你要有你的立場啊因為你是持非常態度啊那我們要求你合二合三要研議你說因為有了這一部法啊那同時也說了除非修法所以你必須你所要的你會不會要求環境部你會不會提出要來修法會不會請教目前法令來講法令規定是你會不會提出我們還是會依法來行政的"},{"start":231.15,"end":242.94,"text":"哇!那民眾每一天就好像在撒謊啊!解籤詩啊!一個院長告訴我們是非常開放的態度那現在又有一個《環境基本法》的第23條在那裡那民眾該當要聽哪一個?要聽哪一個?"},{"start":248.43,"end":271.927,"text":"所以,次長,本席再請教,我們不要讓民眾每天跟那些白痴子這樣,苛決自己的意思,政府應該要有一個方向告訴民眾。所以請教,您說你們隨時都有在研議,再一次請教,我們針對於政府目前針對新核能的科技的態度,是不是誠如左院長所說的,是非常開放?"},{"start":272.407,"end":282.936,"text":"就不會預設任何立場我們歡迎各界在討論這個問題而且現在在總統委設立國家氣候變遷對策委員會也有一些委員有針對這個議題在進行討論"},{"start":284.693,"end":306.56,"text":"所以是採非常開放的途徑在走好那所以次長在這邊次長您聽到經濟部次長的這個說法那環境部本身您會不會也依照卓院長的方向就是非常開放所以也不一定是依照的我們的環境基準法的第23條非核家園請說明"},{"start":310.862,"end":318.015,"text":"我們以環境部的立場來說任何的新的能源我們也其實就是整個行政團隊都是採取比較開放的態度但前提以環境部來講就是"},{"start":322.401,"end":325.525,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長"},{"start":341.343,"end":356.138,"text":"所以就環境部的立場而言環境基本法目前的這個寫法是我們必須要依法那也會希望說這個對於任何形式的能源我們要確定它對環境沒有負面的衝擊或負面衝擊可以減輕"},{"start":357.858,"end":357.978,"text":"您的部長說了"},{"start":376.96,"end":379.283,"text":"但是,您的部長說了一句什麼話呢?說如果留在地方,它是分贓,是利益分贓。您認同這一句話嗎?您認同這一句話嗎?"},{"start":399.76,"end":421.247,"text":"產出在我們地方欸我真的傻眼怎麼會有部長這麼說竟然提出利益分贓我再告訴你盧秀燕市長說至少八成的碳費留在地方蔣萬安市長說支持取之於地方用之於地方的概念把碳費留給地方是更有效率的第一線執行第一線執行"},{"start":423.448,"end":450.921,"text":"陳其邁市長也說．碳費留在地方應該是這樣子的張立善縣長也說．碳費至少要一半留在地方我們的彭部長也說．他說．取之於社會．取之於企業．用之於企業．補助企業實質減碳作為．來作為總量管制但相關的．碳牌的這個設備．以及方案 對不對．這個目的．我要告訴你．"},{"start":451.929,"end":471.901,"text":"做一個我們的政府官員不要水口而出另一分張讓全國都傻眼臺中是我們的中火我們的中火我們看到我們的中火被報導全球碳污染的是全球的第19名碳排量的3419萬噸"},{"start":474.542,"end":489.273,"text":"沒有理由不協助我們上次我也給部長講一定要好好的協助臺中在淨零碳排的部分必須專案去處理那麼也得到部長的一個認同他說的確你們現在在考慮這個內容的時候必須要納入因為它是全球最嚴重的中火燃煤的這個污染源"},{"start":500.302,"end":502.924,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．"},{"start":530.683,"end":531.804,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃"},{"start":548.523,"end":556.145,"text":"這是王美花部長當時答應的我們務必要照期程去做所以我再次的要求針對於中火的這個議案你必須在攤位裡頭專案去研討怎麼樣協助我們中部地區你認同嗎?"},{"start":567.13,"end":596.29,"text":"呃...我們碳...呃...中部地區的這個中火的污染其實空污費我們有留一定的比例有在補助在協助那這個我們也在這個減碳的這個計畫上本席跟你講碳費你說到空污費空污費現在目前在執行這麼多年就是以六成在地方對不對所以我們希望好好的去研討協助地方專款專用這個碳費讓企業跟地方都能夠安心嘛好不好專款專用沒有問題嘿謝謝委員好好的去研討"},{"start":597.015,"end":597.461,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":160,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時34分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。首先邀請次長。"],["主席：哪一位次長？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩位次長一起，好嗎？"],["主席：請連次長、施次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為今天的議題與兩位都相關，兩位次長，尤其是經濟部，首先要請教，卓院長跟外媒也特別說了新核能的科技，它是全面性的，非常開放。首先請教次長，卓院長所提出的新核能科技是什麼？請教。"],["連次長錦漳：目前政府對核能政策以持續採開放的態度在面對，因為這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：開放是什麼？到底是什麼？若開放是態度，那內容是什麼？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，第一個，核能科技技術持續在發展、在進步，到底是什麼樣的新核能技術是比較安全的、比較符合各地需求？對此，我們會在國際情勢下來關注這樣一個議題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為行政院長已經提出，目前部會是不是有相關研議？有沒有？"],["連次長錦漳：我們有持續在蒐集這樣的國際……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有持續在研議？"],["連次長錦漳：持續在蒐集相關資料。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：研議的方向跟卓院長一樣？也就是說，對新核能科技的態度非常開放？以前是非核家園，對不對？現在你們則採取跟世界接軌、非常開放的態度，是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：我們不預設任何立場，因為各界對於這樣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，卓院長接受彭博專訪提及，他已經提了，他竟然提了，而你是經濟部，是最重要的幕僚長，方向應該跟行政院長一樣，是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：有，我們有在關注各項跟核能有關的發電科技……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你認不認同卓院長所說，也就是對新核能科技的態度是非常開放？"],["連次長錦漳：對，我們目前是用開放的態度在面對這問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是非常開放的，跟卓院長一樣。現在次長在這裡，之前經濟部長要上任時說，核能是乾淨的能源，他這麼說。所以接下來我們要求，核二、核三是不是可以延役？但你們拿環境基本法第二十三條作為阻擋牆！請教次長，你代表經濟部，你剛才說的論點跟卓院長一樣，對新核能科技的態度政府是非常開放的，你們會不會修改環境基本法第二十三條？請教。"],["連次長錦漳：環境基本法的主管機關應該是在環境部。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要有你的立場啊，因為你說持非常開放的態度啊！但我們要求核二，核三要延役時，你們說因為有這一部法在，還說除非修法，所以你必須、你所要的、你會不會要求環境部修法？會不會？請教。"],["連次長錦漳：就目前法令來講，法令規定是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會不會提出？"],["連次長錦漳：我們還是會依法行政。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以民眾每天都像在解籤詩啊！院長告訴我們是非常開放的態度，卻又有環境基本法第二十三條在那裡，民眾到底要聽哪一個？要聽哪一個？次長，本席再請教，我們不要讓民眾每天都像在解籤詩一樣各自解讀，政府應該要有一個方向告訴民眾。您說你們隨時都有在研議，所以針對政府目前對新核能科技的態度，是不是誠如卓院長所說是非常開放的？"],["連次長錦漳：就是不會預設任何立場，我們歡迎各界討論這個問題，而且總統府也設立了國家氣候變遷對策委員會，也有一些委員針對這個議題在進行討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是採非常開放的途徑在走？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以施次長在這邊，您也聽到了經濟部次長的說法，請問環境部本身會不會依照卓院長的方向也非常開放？不一定依照環境基本法第二十三條的非核家園？請說明。"],["施次長文真：委員好。跟委員報告，以環境部的立場來說，任何新能源，我們整個行政團隊其實都是採取比較開放的態度，但以環境部而言，前提是必須對環境不會帶來負面效益。再來，環境部在做環評的過程當中發現，比較需要很大的社會共識來推動一些類似……比如核能，就環境部立場來講，目前環境基本法的寫法我們必須要依法，也會希望任何形式的能源要確定對環境沒有負面衝擊，或負面衝擊可以減輕，也希望可以取得社會的共識再來推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，也是朝開放的立場？這是你的說法？"],["施次長文真：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們很高興聽到你的立場是開放的，但我們現在面對了碳費補助的問題。您的部長說，在這個項目碳費本來就是專款專用，就是怎麼樣去減碳這個項目……"],["施次長文真：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是您的部長說了一句什麼話呢？他說如果留在地方是利益分贓，您認同這一句話嗎？"],["施次長文真：沒有，我想我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認同這一句話嗎？但這是我們地方產出的，我真的傻眼，怎麼會有部長這麼說，竟然說利益分贓？我再告訴你，盧秀燕市長說至少八成的碳費留在地方；蔣萬安市長說，支持取之於地方，用之於地方的概念，把碳費留給地方是更有效率的第一線執行；陳其邁市長也說，碳費留在地方應該是這樣子的；張麗善縣長說，碳費至少要一半留在地方。至於我們的彭部長則說，取之於企業，用之於企業，補助企業實質減碳來作為總量管制，但相關的碳排設備及方案……對不對？我要告訴你，作為政府官員，不要隨口而出講利益分贓，讓全國聽了都傻眼！中火在臺中市，我們看到我們的中火被報導是全球碳污染的第十九名，碳排量3,419萬噸，所以沒有理由不協助我們！上次我也告訴部長，一定要在淨零碳排的部分好好協助臺中，必須專案處理，也得到部長的認同。他說，你們在考慮內容時必須要納入，因為中火是全球最嚴重的燃煤排碳污染源。我們也談到必須以價制量，要讓民眾瞭解你的碳藍圖及碳費到底要怎麼做，這點非常重要。所以我再一次強調，政府做事情不能只在冷氣房裡做決策，應該要看到人民所需。我再一次強調，對於部長說如果把碳費留在地方是利益分贓這點，我們提出嚴正抗議！我也要嚴正要求，在臺中市中火議題上，對於好不容易改為燃氣，我們全力支持，同時改一組燃氣就要拆掉一支煙囪，這是王美花部長當時答應的，所以務必要照著期程去做。所以我再次要求，針對中火的議案，必須在碳費裡做專案研討，看怎麼樣協助我們中部地區，你認同嗎？"],["主席：好……"],["施次長文真：中部地區中火的污染，其實我們有留一定比例的空污費作為補助與協助，在減碳計畫上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席跟你講碳費，你說到空污費，目前空污費執行這麼多年，就是六成在地方，對不對？所以我們希望好好地去研討、協助地方碳費專款專用，讓企業跟地方都能夠安心，好不好？"],["主席：好好去研討。"],["施次長文真：專款專用沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，兩位次長請回座。","下一位質詢請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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