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入反毒策略行動幹委第三期了那現在我們是導進就是說在整個一個供應跟那個需求我們是那個要把它阻斷掉那降低那個需求"},{"start":258.888,"end":259.008,"text":"有好嗎?"},{"start":287.431,"end":307.132,"text":"我認為是有效果,如果沒有效果的話,不會新增人口,不會降低那監獄裡面這些人數會降低嗎?有降低啦,現在已經降到4成,應該是4成2吧,4成2那這邊我們用多元處理方案,因為其實把它關到牢裡去,其實會衍生很多做學就業的很多的一個問題"},{"start":307.793,"end":336.348,"text":"那事實上這是他有病人跟病人的一個特質因為他吸毒他那個整個腦部的基因會有減損所以時間沒有很多啦我要提出來就是說我跟黃國昌委員的看法不一樣啦不一樣啦但不一樣的東西是我們共同厭惡的一樣但是呢我認為我們的方式啊未必是對啦這個真的值得法務部好好去思考啦不然不會刑度一直增加然後毒品犯罪的"},{"start":337.268,"end":338.03,"text":"另外啊 我要講的就是說啊"},{"start":349.724,"end":375.48,"text":"今天我們這個所謂的偵查大公開我是很大的一個感觸偵查我相信不公開各位全部都是法律人大家很清楚最主要是保障犯罪嫌疑人跟被告合法的一個權利就是說在整個未經審判程序的一個這個過程裡面防止未經審判程序的一個輿論審判同時去維護整個社會的一個公平性我要請教"},{"start":377.131,"end":387.063,"text":"調查局好了 先調查局好不好你們這五年內這五年內因為違反偵查不公開的部分你們有沒有處罰過的案例及件"},{"start":394.049,"end":417.128,"text":"報告委員,我們從105年到目前為止我們總共有我們主動提報地點署偵辦我們同仁涉嫌洩密的案件我們總共有七件處罰了幾件七件,我們七件大概大部分都起訴那另外在行政調查部分我們也都去做行政上面的追究那幹部如果說有疏失的話我們也做行政上面的追究"},{"start":419.025,"end":426.402,"text":"我看我們本院一些委員一直在講說這個整個偵查不公開裡面"},{"start":428.061,"end":449.181,"text":"涉及到的一個件數啊甚至於講到說有七千多件違反偵查不公開那只有十幾位被處分這個新聞我們也都看到了啊阿博長你認為啊我們法務部裡面啊你來這樣你這樣把它了解開啊這五天就要不要再啦你如果出發過萬人偵查不公開你覺得"},{"start":452.833,"end":476.552,"text":"那個我們是整個一個案記加總是處分是這幾年統計是15件那跟委員報告那個7000多件那個是有件報的我們一定會把它對啦有件報沒有錯那再來做一個那個過濾審查阿你們處...阿有的你們覺得有幾件?這幾年是15...我統計資料是15件15件阿有處罰了嗎?就處罰15件處罰15件?對阿那個...那個...那個...級別都到哪裡?"},{"start":483.53,"end":483.65,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":500.514,"end":514.345,"text":"剛剛調查局那邊還有幾件調查人員那以法務部來看的話就似乎啊檢察官就都沒有那沒有是好事啊可是這個社會到底會不會相信就很怪你們也必須要有這樣的一個疑問"},{"start":515.866,"end":521.311,"text":"我們整個刑務訴訟法第245條我請教司法院行政廳廳長廳長我們245條的第5項裡面去講到說檢察官檢察事務官或者司法警察司法警察官、辯護人、告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務的人員除了為了維護整個公共利益或保護合法的一個權益者以外"},{"start":541.828,"end":554.962,"text":"偵查中執行職務之息的事項不得去公開或者揭露給這些執行法定職務範圍以外之人嘛你所謂的以外之人包括你的內心的想法包括哪些人"},{"start":557.418,"end":559.639,"text":"我是說不得揭露給哪些人我告訴你"},{"start":575.288,"end":589.844,"text":"按照你們高院的見解陳辦中的檢察官偵查中的一個案件連總統行政院長連法務部長都不能讓他知道這個在之前的案例有出現是高院也講了一個見解"},{"start":590.945,"end":608.206,"text":"那個部長,部長部長,你那檢察官偵查案件,你會頭頭去問嗎?這個我不會去干涉郭文貴主席啊,他如果說給你聽,你的心肝會怎樣?這個他不會來找我報告這些事情也不會啦,你不要像以前那個黃世明一樣,傻傻的跑去跟馬英九講"},{"start":611.428,"end":633.544,"text":"這個不可能的事情 不應該發生 我的意思就是說我們這整個法制啊 其實它不是沒有規定 它規定得很清楚啊你像比如說 你一個偵查程序當中只是一個偵查階段的一個開始而已啊 被告到底有沒有犯罪都還不知道"},{"start":634.605,"end":642.881,"text":"你說很多被告啊你把他列為被告像譬如說假設各位被列為被告的話你們第一個怎麼想你們第一個想說我絕對相信司法司法是給我清白的對不對"},{"start":645.734,"end":669.045,"text":"可是如果是被告的時候檢察官一直給你放一直給你放或者其他人一直給你放這對當事人的隱私名譽甚至於整個身家的一個安全啊這對這個都違反到法律對他們的一個保護啊所以任何在偵查當中任何一個訊息的一個洩漏啊對當事人或者他的家屬啊都會造成嚴重的一個損害啊這部長你敢認同這個嗎"},{"start":671.126,"end":684.958,"text":"這個是謝謝委員的指導麥公指導這個我們都很心知肚明你要保障整個偵查的一個工作你國家機關尤其是偵查機關你本來就享有比較優越的一個資訊的一個關鍵"},{"start":688.081,"end":698.106,"text":"可是你任何一個不當的一個洩漏以後這對於你保全犯人也好或者說對於收集跟保全證據這會產生很大的一個阻礙罰我們也休了我記得你看我們在偵查中執行職務的事項不能任意去洩漏這個在2012年的時候你去徵訂刑事訴訟法245條第5項還會同司法院還有行政院去訂定偵查不公開的一個辦法"},{"start":717.495,"end":733.96,"text":"到了2017年施改國事會議當中也去討論偵查不公開．跟媒體不當或違法報導影響的議題做成決議才有2019年去修正偵查不公開的一個辦法我要問問題出在哪裡 部長現在都走不上了都走不上了問題出在哪裡在問部長這個問題 廉政署裡面那邊也是一樣啊"},{"start":746.977,"end":760.998,"text":"全部都是一樣的啦!你們警政署也是一樣啦!都一樣的啦!你們也不知道怎麼說?兩手一攤!無解!部長回應一下!這個要讓社會至少知道你們的態度嘛!"},{"start":762.039,"end":762.379,"text":"部長,我跟你說無效。為什麼無效?"},{"start":789.125,"end":817.595,"text":"涉及到這一些偵查不應該揭露的資訊的人都是專業人士啊不然怎麼可能叫人來偵查檢察官一定是嘛調查局一定是嘛司法警察官一定是嘛司法警察一定是嘛你廉政署的人一定都是專業人他們怎麼會不懂這些法律為什麼會這樣就是沒辦兩件齁台階很高啦我舉跟我們召委吳宗憲稍微過去有點關係的啦你看那個媽媽嘴暗嘛"},{"start":818.703,"end":847.511,"text":"最有名的吧你看當年那個呂政鴻殺人犯香港殺人犯你們的傳播都這樣去大動作2013年大動作去養僑人的咖啡廳到現在來看無罪了還他清白了可是他被標籤化他對當事人是多大的一個傷害啊甚至於你看他走在路上搞不好人家還指指點點他看到這個對當事人那種精神上的折磨"},{"start":848.926,"end":873.573,"text":"這個不是喔所握公權力尤其是偵查發動權的司法人員有辦法去忍受啦所以保證我們不能說只有說有啦我都有在宣達有在教育啦有在做什麼問題外界看到的就是不是如此啊所以我們重喜我每一次我從在野黨國民黨執政我對這個偵查不公開我就很有意見我說我們偵查機關我們法務部這個地方"},{"start":878.885,"end":883.751,"text":"我就非常有意見。到了民進黨執政,其實我也非常有意見。你不改選,有補嗎?有補嗎?"},{"start":890.103,"end":916.582,"text":"就像委員我們有抓到證據我們就嚴辦當然啦當然抓到當然是一定要重罰問題你就抓不到抓不到你就不知道你就每天你每天你就覺得這個對我們整個司法喔對尤其是啊我們檢查體系啊受到那個不信任齁我告訴你喔以最近發現發生的這些事情我問柏定德你的感觸是什麼你的感觸是什麼欸"},{"start":919.724,"end":919.744,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":935.049,"end":935.209,"text":"這是一個態度"},{"start":965.103,"end":977.806,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員他錯了兩個地方啊他說昭偉今天這個偵查不公開的一個整個報告其實他講錯了今天叫做偵查大公開 對不對昭偉第二個他講說政論節目從晚上開始他也講錯了政論節目從中午就在開始你講得太精彩了而且每一次講完以後我看你們的動作實在是"},{"start":992.83,"end":1005.796,"text":"這個問題不是黨派的問題這個問題司法的話你本來就不應該有黨派你們真的要去想辦法不能任由偵查當中的這些資訊任意的去做一個揭露"},{"start":1006.738,"end":1008.78,"text":"我相信我相信我的我們檢察官還有我們那個偵查團隊對最近報的我們認為"},{"start":1034.07,"end":1035.752,"text":"不是不是部長你這個我不同意喔你說最近這幾天的案件裡面這樣新聞的揭露你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開"},{"start":1053.796,"end":1069.866,"text":"這個違反偵查這個是還是要按照要證據來認定的事實如果事後這一些萬一起訴書裡面揭露出來全部都在偵查階段裡面所公開任意揭露這些都是真的你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開我沒有說違反偵查不公開我認為這個就是說我相信我相信整個偵查團隊不會去違反偵查不公開"},{"start":1078.308,"end":1078.968,"text":"這個檢察官還在查齁 這個檢察官還在查"},{"start":1109.064,"end":1109.184,"text":"主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:39:59.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:00.199000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請法務部鄭部長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:02.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:03.060000+08:00","text":"麻煩部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:05.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:08.662000+08:00","text":"還有廉政署馮成署長。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:08.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:09.784000+08:00","text":"馮署長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:09.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:13.487000+08:00","text":"法務部調查局吳副局長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:13.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:15.369000+08:00","text":"副局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:15.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:19.033000+08:00","text":"內政部警政署陳永利副署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:19.033000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:20.033000+08:00","text":"副署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:19.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:22.496000+08:00","text":"是不是也請司法院刑事廳廳長？廳長。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:22.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:23.357000+08:00","text":"我就不問候部長了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:23.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:40:30.354000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:40:30.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:00.054000+08:00","text":"今天召委排這樣的議程有它的意義，但是整個標題是在講偵查大公開，各位應該很有感觸，我也有非常大的感觸，確實最近整個社會上發生了一些案件，相信民眾也是感受在心裡。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:00.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:19.491000+08:00","text":"剛剛我聽了黃國昌委員的質詢以後，其實我剛好也有不同的想法，譬如他剛才在質詢的時候，針對整個毒品防制犯罪的部分，他痛心疾首，他的感受相信一般社會大眾也會有感。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:20.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:25.076000+08:00","text":"可是我倒是反向思考，我覺得各位剛才的答詢都不太好，為什麼說不太好呢？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:26.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:29.581000+08:00","text":"我記得……馮成我們都差不多嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:29.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:31.663000+08:00","text":"我們幾乎是同一輩啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:31.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:41:47.992000+08:00","text":"二十幾年前，還不到30年，我去看守所律見，或是在監獄裡面律見的時候，當時監獄裡面關的，以前叫「煙毒犯」，毒品犯罪的人不到20%。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:41:51.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:06.147000+08:00","text":"當初吸食毒品，從勒戒到戒治，後來法律一直修、一直改，我要請教法務部長的是，我們現在在監獄裡面，屬於毒品犯罪的人達到幾成？","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:09.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:09.315000+08:00","text":"現在是四成多。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:10.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:11.176000+08:00","text":"四成多？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:11.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:14.397000+08:00","text":"以前是超過五成，現在已經降到五成以下了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:15.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:19.698000+08:00","text":"每一次我到監所裡面去，我第一件問典獄長的事是，你這邊關毒品的差不多占幾成。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:19.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:19.858000+08:00","text":"有超過五成的，對不對？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:19.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:43.714000+08:00","text":"我要問的就是說，我們這個法律一直修訂，這個社會對整個毒品犯罪深惡痛絕，可是卻愈關愈多，不管是採取應報或是採取矯治，全部都失敗！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:45.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:46.314000+08:00","text":"廳長應該很清楚嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:46.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:48.875000+08:00","text":"這些都失敗了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:48.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:42:52.236000+08:00","text":"我要提出來的警告是，我們的方法會不會錯了？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:42:52.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:24.028000+08:00","text":"我們跟國外剛好相反，但是國外有成功的，我們不敢用，我們因為政治上的攻防，也沒有任何一個執政者會去採取像荷蘭、像歐洲，甚至是像美國，現在很多像大麻都不算毒品犯罪，你們又不敢，所以我們對毒品犯罪叫做束手無策。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:25.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:31.191000+08:00","text":"立法院要的是，老百姓很討厭就把它刑度提高，這個結果變成什麼？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:33.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:34.476000+08:00","text":"有沒有去做一個省思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:35.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:37.778000+08:00","text":"簡單回答一下，部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:37.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:53.888000+08:00","text":"我們現在對毒品……明年已經要進入反毒策略行動綱領的第三期了，現在我們是導進……在整個供應跟需求，我們是要把它阻斷掉，降低那個需求；另外，在復歸社會方面，事實上我們有做轉銜的制度抑制再犯；現在新生人口已經降低了，所以跟委員報告，我們現在毒品的新生人口是降低的，這是一個可喜的現象。","quality":0.419},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:53.888000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:54.888000+08:00","text":"當然以現在在施用的，我們現在是採多元的處遇方案讓他以專案的方式，讓他跟社會做一個復歸，所以我們現在事實上，我是第一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:54.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:43:54.008000+08:00","text":"有效嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:43:54.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:22.431000+08:00","text":"你認為有效嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:22.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:26.736000+08:00","text":"我認為是有效果的，如果沒有效果的話，新生人口不會降低。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:27.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:30.500000+08:00","text":"那監獄裡面的這些人數會降低嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:30.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:32.682000+08:00","text":"降低了，現在應該已經降到四成二了。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:36.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:50.777000+08:00","text":"這邊我們是採用多元處遇方案，因為把他關到牢裡去，其實也會衍生很多，包括就學、就業等問題，但事實上他有病人的特質，因為他吸毒後整個腦部的基因會有減損，所以……","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:51.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:44:52.238000+08:00","text":"時間沒有很多啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:44:53.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:11.328000+08:00","text":"我要提出的是，我跟黃國昌委員的看法不一樣，我們共同厭惡的一樣，但是我認為我們的方式未必是對的，這個真的值得法務部好好去思考，不然不會刑度一直增加，然後毒品犯罪的升高到有的監獄關了快50%。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:11.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:12.328000+08:00","text":"國外的方法，有效的我們又不能用，也不敢用，這個值得去省思。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:12.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:30.127000+08:00","text":"另外，我要講的是，今天所謂的「偵查大公開」，我是有很大的感觸。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:30.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:45:49.799000+08:00","text":"我相信偵查不公開，各位全部都是法律人，大家也很清楚，最主要是保障犯罪嫌疑人跟被告合法的權利，也就是說，在整個未經審判程序的過程裡面，防止未經審判程序的輿論審判，同時維護整個社會的公平性。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:45:50.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:02.043000+08:00","text":"我要先請教調查局，這五年內因為違反偵查不公開的部分，你們有沒有處罰過的案例？幾件？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:02.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:09.049000+08:00","text":"只要講幾件就好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳副局長以公","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:09.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:18.957000+08:00","text":"報告委員，從105年到目前為止，我們主動提報地檢署偵辦我們同仁涉嫌洩密的案件總共有7件。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:19.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:20.298000+08:00","text":"處罰了幾件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳副局長以公","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:21.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:32.108000+08:00","text":"7件都起訴，另外在行政調查部分，我們也都去做行政上面的追究，幹部如果有疏失的話，我們也做行政上面的追究。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:34.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:46:54.452000+08:00","text":"我看本院一些委員一直在講說，偵查不公開裡面涉及到的件數，甚至講到有七千多件違反偵查不公開，只有十幾位被處分，這個新聞我們也都看到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:46:56.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:04.040000+08:00","text":"部長，你認為法務部裡面，以你就任以來的了解，這五年就好，不要多，你們有處罰過違反偵查不公開的嗎？","quality":0.595},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:08.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:19.062000+08:00","text":"我們按季加總的這幾年處分，統計是15件，跟委員報告，那個七千多件有見報的我們一定會把它……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:20.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:21.704000+08:00","text":"對啦，有見報，沒有錯。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:21.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:23.526000+08:00","text":"然後再來做過濾審查。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:24.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:25.707000+08:00","text":"有的你們覺得有幾件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:26.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:28.610000+08:00","text":"以我們的統計資料這幾年是15件。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:28.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.631000+08:00","text":"15件，那有處罰的嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.671000+08:00","text":"就處罰15件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:29.791000+08:00","text":"處罰15件？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:30.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:31.552000+08:00","text":"級別都是到哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:31.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:33.296500+08:00","text":"級別都是屬於輔助的偵查機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:33.296500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:35.041000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是偵查機關太廣，檢察官也是偵查機關，書記官也是啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:35.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:36.785500+08:00","text":"檢察官沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:36.785500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:38.530000+08:00","text":"所以都處罰到哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:38.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:47:38.610000+08:00","text":"司法警察。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:47:38.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:09.345000+08:00","text":"所以以法務部來看的話，剛剛調查局那邊還有幾件，就是調查人員，那以法務部來看的話，似乎檢察官都沒有，沒有是好事，可是這個社會到底會不會相信，就很怪，你們也必須要有這樣的一個疑問。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:11.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:45.537000+08:00","text":"你看刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，我請教司法院刑事廳廳長，廳長，第二百四十五條的第五項講到，檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官、司法警察、辯護人、告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務之人員，除依法令或為維護公共利益或保護合法權益有必要者外，偵查中因執行職務知悉之事項，不得公開或揭露予執行法定職務必要範圍以外之人員。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:46.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:49.942000+08:00","text":"所謂的「以外之人員」，你內心的想法包括哪些人？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:49.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:51.180000+08:00","text":"以你的見解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:51.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:48:52.418000+08:00","text":"就我們認為可能接觸到的相關人員，就他所知悉到的，有沒有包括記者，這個部分我們不是很確定，但是基本上那個是在規範公務員的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:48:52.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:20.619000+08:00","text":"我是說不得揭露給哪些人，我告訴你，按照你們高院的見解，承辦中的檢察官就偵查中的案件，連總統、行政院長，連法務部長都不能讓他知道。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:21.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:23.262000+08:00","text":"是，這個在之前的案例有出現過。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:23.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:24.824000+08:00","text":"是，高院有這樣的一個見解。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:27.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:30.310000+08:00","text":"部長，你們檢察官偵查案件，你會偷偷去問他嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:30.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:32.092000+08:00","text":"這個我不會去干涉、過問或指導。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:32.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:33.995000+08:00","text":"不會啦！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:33.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:36.357000+08:00","text":"他如果要說給你聽，你的耳朵會這樣閉起來嗎？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:36.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:38.740000+08:00","text":"他不會來找我報告這些事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:39.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:39.581000+08:00","text":"也不會啦！不會。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:40.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:43.206000+08:00","text":"不要像以前那個黃世銘一樣，傻傻地跑去跟馬英九講。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:46.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:47.789000+08:00","text":"這個不可能的事情，我想……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:48.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:49.210000+08:00","text":"不應該發生啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:49.210000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:49:50.210000+08:00","text":"是，不應該發生，我們不會干預介入指導。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:49:49.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:08.524000+08:00","text":"是，我的意思就是說，我們的整個法制其實不是沒有規定，它規定得很清楚，譬如說在偵查程序當中，只是一個偵查階段的開始而已，被告到底有沒有犯罪都還不知道。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:12.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:14.294000+08:00","text":"假設各位被列為被告的話，你們第一個怎麼想？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:14.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:17.760000+08:00","text":"你們第一個想說：我絕對相信司法，司法是給我清白的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:17.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:17.881000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:20.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:35.281000+08:00","text":"可是如果你是被告，檢察官一直給你放消息、一直給你放，或者其他人一直給你放消息，這對當事人的隱私、名譽，甚至於整個身家安全，這都違反法律對他們的保護。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:35.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:44.045000+08:00","text":"所以在偵查當中任何訊息的洩漏，對當事人或他的家屬都會造成嚴重的損害，部長你是否認同這句話？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:46.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:50:49.609000+08:00","text":"這個謝謝委員的指導。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:50:49.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:11.465000+08:00","text":"不要說指導，這個我們都很心知肚明，要保障整個偵查工作，國家機關──尤其是偵查機關本來就享有比較優越的資訊關鍵，可是任何一個不當的洩漏，這對於保全犯人也好，或是對於蒐集跟保全證據都會產生很大的阻礙，法我們也修了。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:11.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:45.999000+08:00","text":"你看，在偵查中執行職務的事項不能任意洩漏，這部分在2012年時增訂刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條第五項，還會同司法院及行政院訂定偵查不公開的辦法；到了2017年，司改國是會議當中也去討論偵查不公開跟媒體不當或違法報導影響的議題作成決議，才有2019年去修正偵查不公開的辦法。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:46.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:46.879000+08:00","text":"我要問，問題出在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:46.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:51:48.519000+08:00","text":"部長，現在都驗不出傷了、都驗不出傷了，問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:51:48.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:05.923000+08:00","text":"問部長這個問題，廉政署你們那邊也是一樣啊，全部都是一樣啦，你們警政署也是一樣啦，都一樣啦！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:07.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:11.552000+08:00","text":"你也不知道要怎麼說，兩手一攤，無解。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:13.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.978000+08:00","text":"部長，回應一下，至少要讓社會知道你們的態度嘛。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:15.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.978000+08:00","text":"我想我們會再嚴格地落實，事實上，最近我們多次發函要求，還有利用各種的場合，包括檢察長會議、任何的教育訓練、研討會，我們都在申述這樣的態度。沒效！沒效！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:16.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.978000+08:00","text":"這部分如果查的話，我們就是絕對嚴辦、絕無寬貸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:52:17.359000+08:00","text":"部長，我跟你說無效，為什麼無效？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:52:44.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:01.491000+08:00","text":"涉及到這些偵查不應該揭露資訊的人都是專業人士啊，不然怎麼可能叫他們來偵查，檢察官一定是，調查局一定是，司法警察官一定是，司法警察一定是，你廉政署的人一定都是，都是專業人士，他們怎麼會不懂這些法律？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.412000+08:00","text":"為什麼會這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:03.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:07.413000+08:00","text":"就是因為沒有辦幾件來殺雞儆猴啦。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:08.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.008000+08:00","text":"我舉跟我們召委吳宗憲過去稍微有點關係的，你看那個媽媽嘴案，最有名的吧，你看當年那個呂炳宏被人說是殺人犯，你們2013年全部大動作去搜索人家的咖啡廳，到現在來看，無罪了、還他清白了，可是他被標籤化，對於當事人是多大的一個傷害，甚至於你看他走在路上，搞不好人家還指指點點，這對當事人那種精神上的折磨，這不是手握公權力──尤其是偵查發動權的司法人員有辦法去忍受的啦。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:51.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:56.109000+08:00","text":"所以部長，你們不能只有說：有啦，我都有在宣導，有在教育啦，有在做什麼。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:53:56.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:53:58.590000+08:00","text":"外界看到的就不是如此啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:00.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:18.371000+08:00","text":"我從當時我們還是在野黨，在國民黨執政時，我對這個偵查不公開就很有意見，對於偵查機關、法務部的這個部分，我就非常有意見；到了民進黨執政，其實我也非常有意見，你們就沒有改善啊！","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:18.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:21.997000+08:00","text":"有沒有方法？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:21.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:25.623000+08:00","text":"有方法嗎？部長。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:25.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:26.944000+08:00","text":"我們有抓到證據，我們就嚴辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:26.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:44.096000+08:00","text":"當然啦，抓到當然是一定要重罰，問題是你就抓不到，你就抓不到，每天你就覺得……這對我們整個司法，尤其是我們的檢察體系遭受到不信任。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:44.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:54:50.981000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，我以最近發生的這些事情問部長就好，你的感觸是什麼？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:54:50.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:15.542000+08:00","text":"因為最近檢方辦了很多社會矚目的案件，我想這個部分社會都非常地關注，媒體都大幅報導，談話性節目也非常多，我是認為很多報導有些是以訛傳訛。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:15.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:40.103000+08:00","text":"我們也要求檢察官對這部分都分案來做一個了解，我相信這可以做一個適度的澄清，因為我們是執法人員，針對澄清部分，我們按照偵查不公開作業辦法就事實澄清，如果報導有諸多不實，我想在上次地檢署的新聞稿都有做充分的說明了，我想這是一個態度。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:40.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:55:49.745000+08:00","text":"剛剛黃國昌委員錯了兩個地方，他說召委今天排偵查不公開的報告，其實他講錯了，今天叫做偵查大公開，對不對？召委。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:55:49.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:19.715000+08:00","text":"第二個，他講說政論節目從晚上開始，他也講錯了，政論節目從中午就在開始，就是說講得太精彩了，而且每一次講完以後，我看你們的動作實在是……部長，我們要想辦法，這個問題不是黨派的問題，這個問題……司法本來就不應該有黨派，你們真的要去想辦法，不能任由偵查當中的這一些資訊任意的被揭露，為什麼這樣講？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:19.715000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:21.738000+08:00","text":"司法對人民來講的話，對於一個他認為自己是無罪的人，司法應該是他的避風港，但以現在我們司法實務的操作，變成是新聞頭條裡面的風暴中心，你沒有特別有感觸嗎？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:21.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:23.780000+08:00","text":"我相信我們的檢察官還有偵查團隊，對於最近的報導，我們認為沒有違反偵查不公開的情形，但是因為現在檢察官已經在查了，如果說我們仔細去查，我相信……","quality":0.344},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:56:49.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:56:50.752000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，部長，你這個我不同意，你說最近這幾天的案件、新聞這樣的揭露，你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:08.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:10.076000+08:00","text":"我想這個還是要按照……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:10.076000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:12.498000+08:00","text":"要講好喔！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:12.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:13.659000+08:00","text":"要由證據來認定事實。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:13.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:21.985000+08:00","text":"是，如果事後這一些萬一在起訴書裡面揭露出來，在偵查階段裡面所公開、任意揭露這些全部都是真的，你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:21.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:24.866000+08:00","text":"我沒有說違反偵查不公開，我相信整個偵查團隊不會去違反偵查不公開。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:24.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:26.129143+08:00","text":"這樣就驗不出傷，只有你們知道而已！","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:26.129143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:27.392286+08:00","text":"你們說你們沒有，不然是鬼知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:27.392286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:28.655429+08:00","text":"這個跟委員報告……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:28.655429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:29.918571+08:00","text":"還是吳宗憲去竊聽人家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:29.918571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:31.181714+08:00","text":"第五條裡面的規定，其所接觸到的訊息非常多，我不覺得直接就是以……是以檢方的偵查團隊……","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:31.181714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:32.444857+08:00","text":"那當然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:32.444857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:33.708000+08:00","text":"可是社會大眾要的不是這個，社會大眾要的是知道是誰，是鬼還是「魔神仔」？","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:33.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:33.948000+08:00","text":"這個檢察官還在查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:34.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:38.733714+08:00","text":"對社會還是要有一個正面的回應。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:39.033714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:43.033714+08:00","text":"這個我們真的要非常謹慎，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:43.333714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:44.476571+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:44.776571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.205143+08:00","text":"謝謝莊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:57:46.505143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:13.648000+08:00","text":"部長，但莊委員的意思是說沒有違反……你說沒有違反偵查不公開，但是我們有違反偵查不公開的結果，事實上有這個結果，但是你說沒有這個行為，那就很奇怪，就是沒有這個行為，但是卻在現實上有了這個結果，剛剛莊委員是這個意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T09:58:13.948000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T09:58:17.662286+08:00","text":"下一位我們請沈委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時39分）謝謝召委，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有廉政署馮成署長。"],["主席：馮署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：副局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：內政部警政署陳永利副署長。"],["主席：副署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是不是也請司法院刑事廳廳長？"],["主席：廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就不問候部長了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今天召委排這樣的議程有它的意義，但是整個標題是在講偵查大公開，各位應該很有感觸，我也有非常大的感觸，確實最近整個社會上發生了一些案件，相信民眾也是感受在心裡。","剛剛我聽了黃國昌委員的質詢以後，其實我剛好也有不同的想法，譬如他剛才在質詢的時候，針對整個毒品防制犯罪的部分，他痛心疾首，他的感受相信一般社會大眾也會有感。可是我倒是反向思考，我覺得各位剛才的答詢都不太好，為什麼說不太好呢？我記得……馮成我們都差不多嘛！我們幾乎是同一輩啊！二十幾年前，還不到30年，我去看守所律見，或是在監獄裡面律見的時候，當時監獄裡面關的，以前叫「煙毒犯」，毒品犯罪的人不到20%。當初吸食毒品，從勒戒到戒治，後來法律一直修、一直改，我要請教法務部長的是，我們現在在監獄裡面，屬於毒品犯罪的人達到幾成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是四成多。"],["莊委員瑞雄：四成多？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以前是超過五成，現在已經降到五成以下了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：每一次我到監所裡面去，我第一件問典獄長的事是，你這邊關毒品的差不多占幾成。有超過五成的，對不對？我要問的就是說，我們這個法律一直修訂，這個社會對整個毒品犯罪深惡痛絕，可是卻愈關愈多，不管是採取應報或是採取矯治，全部都失敗！廳長應該很清楚嘛！這些都失敗了！我要提出來的警告是，我們的方法會不會錯了？我們跟國外剛好相反，但是國外有成功的，我們不敢用，我們因為政治上的攻防，也沒有任何一個執政者會去採取像荷蘭、像歐洲，甚至是像美國，現在很多像大麻都不算毒品犯罪，你們又不敢，所以我們對毒品犯罪叫做束手無策。立法院要的是，老百姓很討厭就把它刑度提高，這個結果變成什麼？有沒有去做一個省思？簡單回答一下，部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在對毒品……明年已經要進入反毒策略行動綱領的第三期了，現在我們是導進……在整個供應跟需求，我們是要把它阻斷掉，降低那個需求；另外，在復歸社會方面，事實上我們有做轉銜的制度抑制再犯；現在新生人口已經降低了，所以跟委員報告，我們現在毒品的新生人口是降低的，這是一個可喜的現象。當然以現在在施用的，我們現在是採多元的處遇方案讓他以專案的方式，讓他跟社會做一個復歸，所以我們現在事實上，我是第一個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：有效嗎？你認為有效嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為是有效果的，如果沒有效果的話，新生人口不會降低。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那監獄裡面的這些人數會降低嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：降低了，現在應該已經降到四成二了。這邊我們是採用多元處遇方案，因為把他關到牢裡去，其實也會衍生很多，包括就學、就業等問題，但事實上他有病人的特質，因為他吸毒後整個腦部的基因會有減損，所以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：時間沒有很多啦！我要提出的是，我跟黃國昌委員的看法不一樣，我們共同厭惡的一樣，但是我認為我們的方式未必是對的，這個真的值得法務部好好去思考，不然不會刑度一直增加，然後毒品犯罪的升高到有的監獄關了快50%。國外的方法，有效的我們又不能用，也不敢用，這個值得去省思。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我要講的是，今天所謂的「偵查大公開」，我是有很大的感觸。我相信偵查不公開，各位全部都是法律人，大家也很清楚，最主要是保障犯罪嫌疑人跟被告合法的權利，也就是說，在整個未經審判程序的過程裡面，防止未經審判程序的輿論審判，同時維護整個社會的公平性。我要先請教調查局，這五年內因為違反偵查不公開的部分，你們有沒有處罰過的案例？幾件？只要講幾件就好。"],["吳副局長以公：報告委員，從105年到目前為止，我們主動提報地檢署偵辦我們同仁涉嫌洩密的案件總共有7件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：處罰了幾件？"],["吳副局長以公：7件都起訴，另外在行政調查部分，我們也都去做行政上面的追究，幹部如果有疏失的話，我們也做行政上面的追究。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我看本院一些委員一直在講說，偵查不公開裡面涉及到的件數，甚至講到有七千多件違反偵查不公開，只有十幾位被處分，這個新聞我們也都看到了。部長，你認為法務部裡面，以你就任以來的了解，這五年就好，不要多，你們有處罰過違反偵查不公開的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們按季加總的這幾年處分，統計是15件，跟委員報告，那個七千多件有見報的我們一定會把它……"],["莊委員瑞雄：對啦，有見報，沒有錯。"],["鄭部長銘謙：然後再來做過濾審查。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有的你們覺得有幾件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以我們的統計資料這幾年是15件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：15件，那有處罰的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就處罰15件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：處罰15件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：級別都是到哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：級別都是屬於輔助的偵查機關。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我知道，但是偵查機關太廣，檢察官也是偵查機關，書記官也是啊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官沒有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以都處罰到哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法警察。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以以法務部來看的話，剛剛調查局那邊還有幾件，就是調查人員，那以法務部來看的話，似乎檢察官都沒有，沒有是好事，可是這個社會到底會不會相信，就很怪，你們也必須要有這樣的一個疑問。你看刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，我請教司法院刑事廳廳長，廳長，第二百四十五條的第五項講到，檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官、司法警察、辯護人、告訴代理人或其他於偵查程序依法執行職務之人員，除依法令或為維護公共利益或保護合法權益有必要者外，偵查中因執行職務知悉之事項，不得公開或揭露予執行法定職務必要範圍以外之人員。所謂的「以外之人員」，你內心的想法包括哪些人？以你的見解。"],["李廳長釱任：就我們認為可能接觸到的相關人員，就他所知悉到的，有沒有包括記者，這個部分我們不是很確定，但是基本上那個是在規範公務員的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是說不得揭露給哪些人，我告訴你，按照你們高院的見解，承辦中的檢察官就偵查中的案件，連總統、行政院長，連法務部長都不能讓他知道。"],["李廳長釱任：是，這個在之前的案例有出現過。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，高院有這樣的一個見解。部長，你們檢察官偵查案件，你會偷偷去問他嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不會去干涉、過問或指導。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：他如果要說給你聽，你的耳朵會這樣閉起來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他不會來找我報告這些事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：也不會啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不要像以前那個黃世銘一樣，傻傻地跑去跟馬英九講。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不可能的事情，我想……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不應該發生啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，不應該發生，我們不會干預介入指導。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的意思就是說，我們的整個法制其實不是沒有規定，它規定得很清楚，譬如說在偵查程序當中，只是一個偵查階段的開始而已，被告到底有沒有犯罪都還不知道。假設各位被列為被告的話，你們第一個怎麼想？你們第一個想說：我絕對相信司法，司法是給我清白的！對不對？可是如果你是被告，檢察官一直給你放消息、一直給你放，或者其他人一直給你放消息，這對當事人的隱私、名譽，甚至於整個身家安全，這都違反法律對他們的保護。所以在偵查當中任何訊息的洩漏，對當事人或他的家屬都會造成嚴重的損害，部長你是否認同這句話？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個謝謝委員的指導。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不要說指導，這個我們都很心知肚明，要保障整個偵查工作，國家機關──尤其是偵查機關本來就享有比較優越的資訊關鍵，可是任何一個不當的洩漏，這對於保全犯人也好，或是對於蒐集跟保全證據都會產生很大的阻礙，法我們也修了。你看，在偵查中執行職務的事項不能任意洩漏，這部分在2012年時增訂刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條第五項，還會同司法院及行政院訂定偵查不公開的辦法；到了2017年，司改國是會議當中也去討論偵查不公開跟媒體不當或違法報導影響的議題作成決議，才有2019年去修正偵查不公開的辦法。我要問，問題出在哪裡？部長，現在都驗不出傷了、都驗不出傷了，問題出在哪裡？問部長這個問題，廉政署你們那邊也是一樣啊，全部都是一樣啦，你們警政署也是一樣啦，都一樣啦！你也不知道要怎麼說，兩手一攤，無解。部長，回應一下，至少要讓社會知道你們的態度嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們會再嚴格地落實，事實上，最近我們多次發函要求，還有利用各種的場合，包括檢察長會議、任何的教育訓練、研討會，我們都在申述這樣的態度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒效！沒效！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果查的話，我們就是絕對嚴辦、絕無寬貸。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我跟你說無效，為什麼無效？涉及到這些偵查不應該揭露資訊的人都是專業人士啊，不然怎麼可能叫他們來偵查，檢察官一定是，調查局一定是，司法警察官一定是，司法警察一定是，你廉政署的人一定都是，都是專業人士，他們怎麼會不懂這些法律？為什麼會這樣？就是因為沒有辦幾件來殺雞儆猴啦。","我舉跟我們召委吳宗憲過去稍微有點關係的，你看那個媽媽嘴案，最有名的吧，你看當年那個呂炳宏被人說是殺人犯，你們2013年全部大動作去搜索人家的咖啡廳，到現在來看，無罪了、還他清白了，可是他被標籤化，對於當事人是多大的一個傷害，甚至於你看他走在路上，搞不好人家還指指點點，這對當事人那種精神上的折磨，這不是手握公權力──尤其是偵查發動權的司法人員有辦法去忍受的啦。所以部長，你們不能只有說：有啦，我都有在宣導，有在教育啦，有在做什麼。外界看到的就不是如此啊！我從當時我們還是在野黨，在國民黨執政時，我對這個偵查不公開就很有意見，對於偵查機關、法務部的這個部分，我就非常有意見；到了民進黨執政，其實我也非常有意見，你們就沒有改善啊！有沒有方法？有方法嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有抓到證據，我們就嚴辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啦，抓到當然是一定要重罰，問題是你就抓不到，你就抓不到，每天你就覺得……這對我們整個司法，尤其是我們的檢察體系遭受到不信任。我告訴你，我以最近發生的這些事情問部長就好，你的感觸是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為最近檢方辦了很多社會矚目的案件，我想這個部分社會都非常地關注，媒體都大幅報導，談話性節目也非常多，我是認為很多報導有些是以訛傳訛。我們也要求檢察官對這部分都分案來做一個了解，我相信這可以做一個適度的澄清，因為我們是執法人員，針對澄清部分，我們按照偵查不公開作業辦法就事實澄清，如果報導有諸多不實，我想在上次地檢署的新聞稿都有做充分的說明了，我想這是一個態度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：剛剛黃國昌委員錯了兩個地方，他說召委今天排偵查不公開的報告，其實他講錯了，今天叫做偵查大公開，對不對？召委。第二個，他講說政論節目從晚上開始，他也講錯了，政論節目從中午就在開始，就是說講得太精彩了，而且每一次講完以後，我看你們的動作實在是……部長，我們要想辦法，這個問題不是黨派的問題，這個問題……司法本來就不應該有黨派，你們真的要去想辦法，不能任由偵查當中的這一些資訊任意的被揭露，為什麼這樣講？司法對人民來講的話，對於一個他認為自己是無罪的人，司法應該是他的避風港，但以現在我們司法實務的操作，變成是新聞頭條裡面的風暴中心，你沒有特別有感觸嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信我們的檢察官還有偵查團隊，對於最近的報導，我們認為沒有違反偵查不公開的情形，但是因為現在檢察官已經在查了，如果說我們仔細去查，我相信……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是、不是，部長，你這個我不同意，你說最近這幾天的案件、新聞這樣的揭露，你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個還是要按照……"],["莊委員瑞雄：要講好喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：要由證據來認定事實。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，如果事後這一些萬一在起訴書裡面揭露出來，在偵查階段裡面所公開、任意揭露這些全部都是真的，你認為這個沒有違反偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有說違反偵查不公開，我相信整個偵查團隊不會去違反偵查不公開。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣就驗不出傷，只有你們知道而已！你們說你們沒有，不然是鬼知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個跟委員報告……"],["莊委員瑞雄：還是吳宗憲去竊聽人家……"],["鄭部長銘謙：第五條裡面的規定，其所接觸到的訊息非常多，我不覺得直接就是以……是以檢方的偵查團隊……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！可是社會大眾要的不是這個，社會大眾要的是知道是誰，是鬼還是「魔神仔」？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個檢察官還在查。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對社會還是要有一個正面的回應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我們真的要非常謹慎，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。部長，但莊委員的意思是說沒有違反……你說沒有違反偵查不公開，但是我們有違反偵查不公開的結果，事實上有這個結果，但是你說沒有這個行為，那就很奇怪，就是沒有這個行為，但是卻在現實上有了這個結果，剛剛莊委員是這個意思。","下一位我們請沈委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}