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不能分這棟的岩那棟的岩這是合理的像剛才鄭水鴻 拿媽媽水在釣工在釣主席那這個岩 那個岩現在到我那邊沒水"},{"start":42.711,"end":63.932,"text":"藝術,他的藝術是什麼?是科批告的有可能破不出嗎?你怎麼知道?對不對?無罪推定是這樣嗎?法律是無罪推定,但是這個個案部分我就不評論,因為...不是啊,就有可能嘛,任何一個案都有可能破不出。記者的人不一定有罪,對不對?已經,已經歡迎採訪記者,最好他覺得一定有罪。"},{"start":68.922,"end":78.027,"text":"基本上就是因為法官會被裁定即要就是犯罪嫌疑重大但是罪有感一定有罪啦這個要用證據來認定嘛不是我現在說事務嘛"},{"start":81.584,"end":82.465,"text":"這十年來有一個統計資料就是"},{"start":101.081,"end":113.707,"text":"有羈押處分的這部分有定罪率是﹐起訴率是98﹐98﹐台南市的議長賄算稍微那麼多人全部都沒做啊對不對所以我說的我不是針對做一個案子啦我是在說照剛才委員說的啊提那個案子現在新委員還去說嘛不要用個案來處理啊"},{"start":133.45,"end":157.906,"text":"社會重大受謀的案件沒中今天你不論司法、行政、立法都一樣為什麼媒體叫第四款所以NCC有人要注意這對媒體的主力來說第四款媒體想要邀請所有的新聞來滿足社會大眾這是媒體的立場跟他的做法"},{"start":161.721,"end":168.489,"text":"但是當媒體說出我選擇這條線我已經7年了我還在說變人妻的這你要自己看看啊這個各位報告這個有來約談了這個有那個我們都讓他妻的我們都念中華民國政府的心碎啊我們說變人妻的"},{"start":183.341,"end":211.769,"text":"再來,剛才說到政策不公開,但是有內閣可以公開嗎?是不是怎麼破掉?對,這個有那個作為辦法,你怎麼規定?公開的部分應該是由什麼人來公開?這個新聞發言人新聞的發言人?不是由媒體來公開嗎?不過就是因為,我們會新聞發言人對媒體來做一個...你是透過媒體去說到,但是媒體公開的都不是你公開的那部分"},{"start":213.1,"end":228.071,"text":"但是你沒有公開的部分他都給你公開了不過這個新聞報導的有些是捕風捉影捕風捉影是你說的嘛捕風捉影不會說大家親像聯繫局這樣斷命就對了親像聯繫局說到有影有影、有腳有手再來敢聽的一文"},{"start":239.131,"end":242.094,"text":"警察如公開亦無公開當媒體報道這禁聽的言文內有什麼東西的時候這就標示內部已經出問題了嘛"},{"start":257.91,"end":266.594,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個內部齁 我們會檢討而且會落實齁我沒有跟你說什麼人有問題啦 我也不會說檢察官有問題 只是過程中有很多人接觸到這些資料啊但是對我 對我就是人民領域司法的公信已經太順了 你聽我意思嗎"},{"start":281.072,"end":281.492,"text":"包括今天現在現狀況"},{"start":308.803,"end":312.544,"text":"這麼多年來,台南這塊土地遭受很多困難,我控告幾件,你們都不公開,奇怪,我控告,你們都問我偵查不公開,你也公開一下,半天我出來看看,看得到嗎?對不對?"},{"start":335.729,"end":350.192,"text":"現在來...委員你關心的...我們就是...台南這個案件...你不要在這裡跟我說個案啦...你說個案...我也不會要求你說個案...台南這個案件因為...它所有所成就的地點都在台南市了...既然過去發生了一個不法...現在還有偵查這一個不法...這麼多...沒聽一句就對了...繼續在開罰..."},{"start":362.984,"end":376.529,"text":"你知不知道外面現在說什麼人們就用司法的力量簽署現主席的既定利益者而變成一幫新的集團來吃肉部長你聽到後會變成怎樣我們的故鄉你如果辦三案了嘛只要有接到我們有查到的司法我們就會反流反流就是為了簽署這些既定利益者就對了這都太狡猾了"},{"start":392.551,"end":400.737,"text":"這案件都在外面 你們都要抓一個局長去關全的人都不知道 一個局長可以 七八千億的案 吃手抓停可以這樣嗎?不可能絕對不可能 再來因為現在 警察中 警察不公開 所以我不該說他的名聽說這個人 因為他勘定過了案過去戰經是 執政黨的擱展"},{"start":421.089,"end":425.311,"text":"他有救報、有其他卡在骨頭上,你如果問骨頭上,我有接到情報聽說他要走,我是希望這部分,我現在正式給你記報我的消息是說,他準備要繞跑,繞跑去後面都看不到了"},{"start":445.578,"end":469.576,"text":"你有什麼訪問的作為跟委員報告因為我對案件我是不干涉、不知道、不介入若說委員這部分有比較具體的一個情緒我們是可以提供給台南地檢署給城辦的地檢署可以依照228條訴訟228條告訴高花或把一些的犯罪性我們就跟他告發可以做撥轉的設施就對了我想任何意見任何的意見"},{"start":472.351,"end":478.315,"text":"因為這是社會重大事務的案件,如果是這樣,我可以把這個情報提供給你們嗎?這樣可以嗎?那我們就轉給成辦的地檢署。好,這樣讓我正式把這個情報提供給幾單位。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":513,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時14分）主席，我請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：對於剛才沈委員說的，我順便來問一下，他剛才說不要分這個黨的案子，那個黨的案子，這是合理的，像剛才莊瑞雄故意拿「媽媽嘴」在抨擊主席，結果那個案子到最後判沒罪，他的意思是怎麼樣？是柯P到最後有可能判沒罪嗎？對不對？無罪推定是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法律是無罪推定，但是個案部分我就不評論。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！因為有可能嘛！任何一個案子都有可能判無罪，羈押的人不一定有罪，對不對？已經被法院裁定羈押，最後他一定有罪嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：基本上法官會裁定羈押就是犯罪嫌疑重大。"],["謝委員龍介：但最後一定有罪嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要用證據來認定。"],["謝委員龍介：不是，我現在說實務嘛！我不是針對哪一個案子，就是說所有的案子，通案啦！司法案件被羈押的嫌疑人，最後一定有罪嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有羈押的案件，定罪率就會很高。"],["謝委員龍介：很高就一定都有罪嗎？也是有判無罪啊！不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這十年來有一個統計資料，就是有羈押處分的，這部分的起訴率是98%。"],["謝委員龍介：98%？臺南市議長賄選案收押那麼多人，全部都無罪啊！對不對？所以我不是針對哪一個案子，我是說照剛才莊委員說的那一案，現在沈委員又說，不能用個案來處理。社會重大矚目的案件，部長，今天無論司法、行政、立法都一樣，為什麼媒體叫第四權？所以NCC的人要注意媒體自律，第四權的媒體想挖盡所有的新聞來滿足社會大眾，這是媒體的立場及其作法，但是當媒體講出「我經營這條線已經7年」，你們就變成被人養的耶！這點你就要問問看了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有約談。"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼變成我們被他們養？我們領的都是中華民國政府的薪水，怎麼都變成是他養的？再來，剛才也講到偵查不公開，但是有例外可以公開，是不是這樣，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個作業辦法裡面有……"],["謝委員龍介：公開的部分應該是由什麼人來公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個新聞的發言人。"],["謝委員龍介：新聞的發言人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["謝委員龍介：不是由媒體來公開嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過，就是因為我們是以新聞發言人對媒體來做一個……"],["謝委員龍介：你們是透過媒體去講，但是媒體公開的都不是你們公開的那部分啊！你們沒公開的部分，他們都幫你們公開了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過，新聞報導有些是捕風捉影。"],["謝委員龍介：捕風捉影是你講的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法確定哪一個是真的、哪一個是假的……"],["謝委員龍介：捕風捉影的話也不會讓大家像在看連續劇一樣每晚都有，而且還講得有模有樣、有手有腳啊！再來，監聽的譯文還一直出來，就連監聽的譯文也跑出來，你說這……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不知道哪裡有監聽的譯文……"],["謝委員龍介：你說這樣偵查是有公開還是沒公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：監聽的譯文這個我不清楚耶！"],["謝委員龍介：當媒體在報導監聽的譯文裡面有些什麼的時候，這就表示內部已經出問題了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個內部我們會檢討，而且會落實。"],["謝委員龍介：我沒跟你說是什麼人有問題，我也不會講檢察官有問題，事實上過程中有很多人會接觸到這些資料，但是對外的話，人民會認為司法的公信力已經受損了嘛！你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我清楚，這個因為……"],["謝委員龍介：在百姓的心目中，對你們的信賴度會降低嘛！變成你們在其中是有所為的，你們是為了特定的目的在辦特定的案件，這樣對你們就不好了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對不會為特定的人去辦特定的案件，包括所有案件都是刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條因告訴、告發、自首……"],["謝委員龍介：包括今天現在此時，正在羈押中、申請羈押中的案件。我想你的故鄉在臺南，和我一樣，這4年來，臺南這塊土地造成了多少「𧿬踏」，我控告了幾件，你們怎麼都不公開一下？我就覺得奇怪，我提告的那些，你們怎麼都在偵查不公開？不然你們也公開一半，讓我看看案子辦到哪裡了，對不對？現在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的，我們就是……"],["謝委員龍介：臺鹽這個案件，你不要在這邊跟我說個案，我也不會要求你講個案，但臺鹽這個案子因為它所有承作的地點剛好就在臺南市，既然過去發生了那麼多的不法之事，現在也還在偵查這些不法，這麼多個案件沒一件停下來，都還在繼續開發。你可知道外面現在說什麼嗎？人家是借用司法的力量，剷除現在的既得利益者，但後面又有一批新的集團要來接手，部長，你聽了之後覺得怎樣？這是我們的故鄉耶！你們已經辦3個案子了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有接到，我們查到不法，我們就……"],["謝委員龍介：查辦就是為了剷除這些既得利益者，這些都是官商勾結的案件，結果你們只抓了一個局長去關，剩下的人都沒事，一個局長可以經辦七、八千億的案子，還可以隻手遮天，可以這樣嗎？不可能！絕對不可能！","再來，因為現在偵查中的案件不予公開，所以我也不講他的名字，但聽說這個人，因為涉及好幾個案子，過去曾經是執政黨的高層，雖然他交保了，但也還牽涉到其他好幾件案子，你們也問過他好幾遍了。我有接獲情報，聽說他要走了，我是希望這部分……我現在正式向你舉報，我得到的消息是，他準備要逃跑了，如果讓他逃跑了，後面就都查不到了，你能有什麼方法可作為嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為我對案件是不干涉、不知道、不介入，如果委員這部分有比較具體的情資，我們是可以提供給臺南地檢署、給承辦的地檢署，可以依照刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條告訴、告發，或把一些犯罪嫌疑向他告發……"],["謝委員龍介：可以實施保全措施就對了？預防？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想，任何意見都可以……"],["謝委員龍介：這是社會重大矚目的案件，如果是這樣的話，我可以把這個情報提供給你們嗎？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我們就轉給承辦的地檢署。"],["謝委員龍介：好，這樣的話，我會後就正式地把這個情報提供給貴單位。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}