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怎麼讓被告回來這部分齁 如果說有通緝的話 我想我們那個會檢察官或 通緝了沒有這個還沒有通緝那如果通緝了可以叫他回來嗎註銷 這個就可以用25條 那個護照條例25條好 說得很好 25條註銷 我們來看一下有沒有辦法註銷齁 來往下看來 我們通緝啊 你直接說通緝了 本來說"},{"start":276.738,"end":300.131,"text":"如果被告人在國內的時候通緝可以逮捕,人在國外你說要註銷他的護照,是不是這樣子?這個我們目前的說法可以,就是我們外交部領事裁判就依照……你們有確定?這個我們這個含……我們看一下齁,往下看。他現在呢,你再發佈他通緝,假設發佈他通緝,他要遣返回台,或他滯留日本,或遣往第三國,他可不可以遣往第三國?"},{"start":302.128,"end":323.567,"text":"這不能註銷護照的話如果註銷護照除了他有第二本國家的護照不然他就沒有辦法銷往第三國了是不是這樣子對好 那往下看以前呢到底紀律上有沒有辦法註銷護照以前有位彭先生啊他是遭通氣候護照被註銷我們了解的時候呢他不是註銷他是原護照到期去申請換發就被扣了"},{"start":324.363,"end":339.733,"text":"他到期後就不扣了扣了之後他就沒有護照了所以他現在呢他就沒辦法到其他國家了是不是這樣子是那你們根據領事事務局告訴你們怎麼樣可以註銷通緝犯在國外的通緝犯的護照往下看有嗎怎麼註銷第幾條23條還是25條25條第二項25條第二項"},{"start":345.219,"end":346.4,"text":"那這樣子你們開始做了沒有?"},{"start":373.62,"end":379.302,"text":"目前的話我想這部分北檢會依照這個我相信因為我沒辦法去過問這個個案我相信成辦的地檢署成辦檢管應該會用這個方式來處理因為我沒辦法去過問這個"},{"start":389.125,"end":407.86,"text":"所以我秀出來的護照條例第25條沒有秀出來第二項再回過頭去援引第23項23條的第一項第二款司法或軍法機關通知主管機關那這個司法機關是我們的司法院是哪一個司法機關防護秘書長剛剛部長說的對嗎這司法機關是指誰是檢查機關所以檢查機關就會註銷對現在那個"},{"start":418.43,"end":420.675,"text":"那另外的哪些人要遵守偵查不公開的人員?"},{"start":429.086,"end":456.854,"text":"這個在作為辦法第5條有第一項第二項都有規定就是警察嘛、檢察官嘛、辯護人嘛對不對這個蠻多的齁其實事實上那個修正的說明被告有沒有保密的義務?證人有沒有保密的義務?就是被告跟證人沒保密所以他會講出去所以如果證人跟被告沒有保密的義務他會跟記者講因為記者會問他啊OK好那往下看啦好我們往下看齁那記者知道了"},{"start":458.383,"end":472.393,"text":"你可以問他說是證人告訴你的還是被告告訴你的嗎?你可以問他?你可以要求他嗎?你們要查啊!如果是證人跟被告沒有保密的義務的人他洩露去了有沒有方案秘密偵查?"},{"start":474.721,"end":496.975,"text":"這個我們最多啦最多就是依照第6條的規定就是跟他講說小市的如果公開揭露偵查資訊程序或內容要件會發生什麼不好的影響你只是告訴他嘛你不能限制他嘛他告訴記者記者報表出來的他不告訴你是誰告訴他的可不可以記者有沒有不透露下來的人的權利"},{"start":498.839,"end":525.232,"text":"這是一個...我們副...副民事長記者可不可以不透露消息來源?那個...跟委員報告那我們的順便報告一下那在他們是依照一些的規範裡面是認為人權公約的規範你認為是他可以不透露是嗎?所以如果記者不告訴你誰跟他講的他可能是被告講的可能是證人講的你連續告訴被告跟證人你們不要亂講都沒有機會啊往下看好那記者如果沒有不公開的義務他有沒有拒絕證詞的權利?"},{"start":527.318,"end":528.3,"text":"有沒有拒絕證言的範圍?他不再拒絕證言的範圍"},{"start":542.774,"end":559.461,"text":"是嘛所以說部長你們現在認為妨礙偵查不公開如果有媒體報導你們要怎麼辦把記者用證人方式來傳喚用調查洩密罪的方式請他說到底作證一下是誰告訴你的可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":562.638,"end":587.634,"text":"各位委員報告,如果說有這個外面有這種我們有這種我們分擔在處理的話,我們就是會請記者來當證人那他是證人嗎?他是證人他如果被告他要接默權嗎?對不對?他又不講嗎?那證人他要義務講嗎?對不對?有沒有用過這個方式要記者講?我們是會問記者他說保護消息的來源那他可以拒絕作證嗎?他不能拒絕作證那怎麼辦?"},{"start":588.912,"end":608.864,"text":"大概193條他這部分有拒絕證言的話他可以裁罰三萬元以下裁罰三萬元以下你們有沒有開罰過以前有開罰過那最近這麼多分分鬧鬧你們有沒有在調查洩密案呢最近這一連串的所謂的偵查被公開最近有沒有最近有有"},{"start":609.724,"end":637.97,"text":"那查了之後有沒有傳喚記者?這個有傳喚記者那記者有沒有作證?這個有作證你沒有拒絕證言?所以沒有被罰?這個我不清楚不過這個要按照那你要不要查一下?這個新聞稿裡面齁它裡面有做一個說明的啦有一個說明的這個新聞稿就是9月16號的一個新聞稿所以?所以怎麼樣?說明什麼?就是說查證信那個記者的是依據消息人員是轉述的"},{"start":639.249,"end":651.247,"text":"所以他有透露他的消息來源他作證有透露他的消息來源這個消息來源可能是被告可能是證人你們沒有證實但是絕對不是有保密義務的警察司法官是不是這樣的意思辯護人"},{"start":660.318,"end":675.285,"text":"所以你們可以跟大家講嘛如果記者知道了他也交代了消息來源了只要沒有保密義務的那三種人你沒辦法他嘛是的好來接下來我們往下一條來來那個那個副秘書長"},{"start":678.312,"end":693.664,"text":"現在記者如果說記者說我為了我們保護消息來源希望未來修法刑訴第182條比照182條列入醫師、藥師、心理師等等等這些人你們司法院的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":695,"end":718.188,"text":"新聞自由啊 你們用證人傳喚我 我要告訴你是誰告訴我的啊那如果說我要保密呢 要列入182條啊 你們的態度怎麼樣 刑訴是你們管的這可能要再進一步的研議了 以前沒有把這部分涵蓋進去哪個國家有在我們類似刑訴第182條 把新聞工作者列入 拒絕證言的權利"},{"start":719.741,"end":738.369,"text":"有沒有來回去查一下我希望最後一題希望你們會同其他機關包括如何去研議護照註銷防止逃亡嚴防這些刑事偵查當中可能的被告或招通緝的人滯留在國外不回部長可不可以做到"},{"start":741.52,"end":763.589,"text":"這個在9月2號有開過會了開過會了後續的做法具體做法一個月內給本席可以嗎可以好 那麼司法院那至於媒體是否能適用包括偵查不公開以及他有沒有刑訴第182條可以甄列適用的對象他有拒絕證詞的權利這個請司法院也去了解各國的情況給我們回答好不好是"},{"start":764.249,"end":781.572,"text":"我今天的題目就是說大家討論偵查不公開其實也是在討論我們國內的新聞自由華盛頓郵報當年在水門事件在越戰調查報告當中都有類似的情況他們的最高法院也就做出對新聞自由的保障"},{"start":782.293,"end":799.341,"text":"那如果未來我們台灣有明確的規定那麼新聞自由他想辦法去發掘知識時想辦法去滿足社會大眾知的權利如果我們要限制他就要從修改法律來著手而不是在這邊改一些什麼框定一個採訪範圍啦限制我們檢察官跟記者接觸啦"},{"start":803.222,"end":826.213,"text":"這些都不能夠杜絕跟防止在新聞自由的情況之下媒體就其他無偵查保密義務的人的身上取得類似這些案情的來源造成了我們偵查不公開三個部分為了避免審判不公平為了避免侵害隱私避免這些情況發生副部長同不同意同意部長要不要坐要好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時33分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院黃副秘書長，還有法務部鄭部長、黃次長，調查局跟警政署就隨時奉命，可以幫忙補充。"],["主席：請副秘、鄭部長、黃次長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副秘書長好，部長好，次長好。今天我們在談偵查不公開，其實要回到犯罪偵查，這裡涉及到新聞自由、旅行自由，還有法律要不要修改，記者或人民的權利才能有所依循。我先回到之前問過的問題，關於西班牙國際通緝犯奧納德的現況，部長，就你所知，雖然不是你的直接業務，你所知道的情況怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：移民署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：移民署怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：西班牙通緝犯已經遣返到德國，要遣送就送到德國。"],["鍾委員佳濱：重新送到德國去了，最新的狀況？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最新的狀況，這個媒體有報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看一下，回顧一下，他在2019年入境臺灣，在2020年發布紅色通緝，但是我方不知道，然後他在臺灣取得了居留之後，移民署後來發現有犯罪的情況，他就要限期出境、強制出境對不對？但是強制出境有一個問題，他出境，你覺得他是拿哪一國的護照？他是拿西班牙的護照出境嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得合理推斷，他如果拿西班牙的護照入境，他可能拿西班牙的護照出境，然後他去新加坡，新加坡有沒有准他簽證不知道，但是新加坡拒絕他入境，因為他被紅色通緝不讓他入境，新加坡有這個權利，原班機就回來了，對不對？為什麼會回來呢？因為法院撤銷了，行政法院撤銷了他的行政裁定，是不是這樣子？請問一下，你不見得知道他是持西班牙護照的，那我們怎麼知道他被紅色通緝？警政署知道嗎？警政署不要浪費我的時間，剛剛請你們待命了，警政署，他怎麼知道的？"],["陳副署長永利：跟委員報告，這是國際刑警組織通報的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們什麼時候知道的？不知道，好，沒關係。那他現在人在臺灣了嗎？剛剛說了，到德國去了嗎？"],["陳副署長永利：已經離開了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：離開了，用哪個國家的護照出境的？那是移民署管的，你們不管？"],["陳副署長永利：後續就由移民署處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們不清楚，好，如果他的西班牙護照註銷，我請教一下黃副秘書長，這涉及到人權，依你推論，我們兩個背景可能很接近，如果他的西班牙護照被註銷，他還能夠被送到新加坡或西班牙嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國際刑警有沒有經驗？警政署有沒有經驗？你們覺得呢？都沒有，都不知道？警政署知不知道？"],["陳副署長永利：這一部分我們就比較沒有處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不清楚？你們要知道，我看下一題就知道了，往下看，他是詐騙回臺嘛？有個橘子到日本避風頭，他的朋友說他去遊學，他應該是被列被告，是不是有個被列被告在日本滯留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他已經被列被告了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那怎麼辦？能叫他回來接受偵查嗎？他是留學簽證耶！他只要在日本沒有違反規定，日本也不要註銷他的簽證，他就可以待在日本，部長怎麼辦？怎麼讓被告回來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果說有通緝的話，我想我們檢察官會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：通緝了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還沒有通緝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果通緝了可以叫他回來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就可以用護照條例第二十五條來註銷……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，說得很好，用第二十五條來註銷，我們來看一下有沒有辦法註銷，我們通緝……你直接說通緝了，本來說如果被告人在國內的時候，通緝就可以逮捕，人在國外的話你說要註銷他的護照，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們目前的作法可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：外交部領事裁判就依照……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個函……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們往下看，現在假設發布他通緝，他要遣返回臺，或他滯留日本或前往第三國，他可不可以前往第三國？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分註銷護照的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果註銷護照的話，除非他有第二本國家的護照，不然他就沒辦法前往第三國了，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看，到底技術上有沒有辦法註銷護照？以前有位彭先生遭通緝後，護照被註銷，我們了解之後他不是註銷，他是原護照到期去申請換發就被扣了，他到期後就被扣了，扣了之後他就沒有護照了，所以他現在就沒辦法到其他國家了，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們根據領事事務局告訴你們怎麼樣可以註銷通緝犯在國外的護照？有嗎？怎麼註銷？第二十三條還是第二十五條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二十五條第二項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二十五條第二項，第二項是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：持照人有同條例第二十四條第二項第二款的情形，及持照人在外國或港澳或大陸地區……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第幾條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二十五條第二項，然後最好就是依同條……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第幾條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二十三條第一項第二款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二十三條第一項第二款就是經司法或軍法機關通知主管機關就可以註銷了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就外交部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那這樣子，你們開始做了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前的話，我想這部分北檢會依照……我相信啦！因為我沒辦法去過問這個個案，我相信承辦的地檢署、承辦的檢察官應該會用這個方式來處理，但因為我沒辦法去過問……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，所以我秀出來的護照條例第二十五條沒有秀出來第二項，再回過頭援引第二十三條第一項第二款「經司法或軍法機關通知主管機關。」，這個司法機關是司法院的哪一個司法機關？請問黃副秘書，剛剛部長說的對嗎？這個司法機關是指誰？是檢察機關？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：還在偵查階段應該是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以檢察機關就可以註銷？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，在偵查的時候是檢察機關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察機關就可以申請……"],["鄭部長銘謙：函請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：函請領事事務局把它註銷？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。另外哪些人要遵守偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在作業辦法第五條第一項、第二項都有規定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是警察、檢察官、辯護人嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個滿多的，其實事實上，修正的說明都還……"],["鍾委員佳濱：被告有沒有保密的義務？證人有沒有保密的義務？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是被告跟證人沒有保密義務……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以他會講出去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！所以如果證人跟被告沒有保密的義務，他可以跟記者講。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為記者會問他。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，往下看。記者知道了之後，你可以問他說是證人告訴他的還是被告告訴他的嗎？你可以問他、你可以要求他嗎？你們要查啊！如果是證人跟被告等沒有保密義務的人洩露出去了，這有沒有妨礙秘密偵查？沒有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於這個，我們最多就是依照第六條的規定，跟他講說如果公開揭露偵查資訊、程序、內容、要件會發生什麼不好的影響，道德勸說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你只是告訴他嘛！你不能限制他嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒辦法限制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他告訴記者，記者報導出來了，他不告訴你是誰告訴他的可不可以？記者有沒有不透露消息來源的權利？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問副秘書長，記者可不可以不透露消息來源？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們的書面報告有，依照一些規範、人權公約規範認為他可以不透露消息的來源……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以如果記者不告訴你誰跟他講的，他可能是被告講的、可能是證人講的，你連去告訴被告跟證人不要亂講都沒有機會啊！如果記者沒有不公開的義務，他有沒有拒絕證詞的權利？你們如果開始以洩漏機密、公共機密來調查他，請問副秘書長，記者可不可以不透露消息來源，如果你傳喚他要他作證的話……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他不在拒絕證言的這個範圍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有拒絕證言的範圍？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，他不在得拒絕證言的範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以說部長，你們現在認為妨礙偵查不公開，如果有媒體報導，你們要怎麼辦？把記者用證人的方式來傳喚、用調查洩密這個方式請他說到底……作證一下是誰告訴他的，可以這樣做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，如果外面有這種……我們分案在處理的話，我們會請記者來當證人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他是證人嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：他是證人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他如果是被告他會行使緘默權嘛，對不對？他又不講嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，他不講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那證人他有要義務講嘛，對不對？有沒有用過這個方式要記者講？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是會問記者，但他會說要保護消息的來源……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他可以拒絕作證嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他不能拒絕作證。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大概第一百九十三條這部分，就拒絕證言的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後會怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以裁罰三萬元以下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：裁罰三萬元以下，你們有沒有開罰過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以前有開罰過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那最近那麼多紛紛擾擾，你們有沒有在調查洩密案呢？最近這一連串所謂的偵查被公開，最近有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最近有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有！那查了之後有沒有傳喚記者？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有傳喚記者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那記者有沒有作證？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有作證。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有拒絕證言，所以沒有被罰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚，不過這個要按照……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們要不要查一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個新聞稿裡面有做一個說明，就是9月16號的新聞稿。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以怎麼樣？說明什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是記者依據的消息來源是轉述的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以他有透露他的消息來源？他作證有透露他的消息來源？這個消息來源可能是被告、可能是證人，你們沒有證實，但是絕對不是有保密義務的警察、司法官、辯護人。是不是這樣的意思？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為我只能依據那個新聞稿來做一個了解，如果說是屬於那個被告或證人，他當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們可以跟大家講嘛！如果記者知道了，他也交代消息來源了，只要沒有保密義務的那三種人，你也拿他沒有辦法嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：就沒有保密義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。接下來，我們往下一條，副秘書長，如果記者說他們為了要保護消息來源，希望未來修刑訴法第一百八十二條，比照第一百八十二條，列入醫師、藥師、心理師等等這些人，你們司法院的看法怎麼樣？新聞自由啊！你們用證人傳喚他，他要告訴你是誰告訴他的，如果他要保密、要列入第一百八十二條，你們的態度怎麼樣？刑訴是你們管的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這可能要再進一步研議了，以前沒有把這部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪個國家有類似我們的刑訴第一百八十二條，把新聞工作者列入得拒絕證言的權利？有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就我們所知好像沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，回去查一下，最後一題，希望你們會同其他機關，包括如何去研議護照註銷，防止逃亡，嚴防這些刑事偵查當中可能的被告或遭通緝的人滯留在國外不回，部長可不可以做到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在9月2號有開過會了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：開過會了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後續的作法、具體作法，一個月內給本席可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。至於媒體是否能適用，包括偵查不公開以及他有沒有刑訴第一百八十二條可以增列適用的對象，他有拒絕證詞的權利，這個請司法院也去了解各國的情況後給我們回答，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我今天的題目就是，大家在討論偵查不公開，其實也是在討論我們國內的新聞自由，華盛頓郵報當年在水門事件、在越戰調查報告當中都有類似的情況，他們的最高法院也做出對新聞自由的保障，如果未來我們臺灣有明確的規定，那麼新聞自由想辦法去發掘事實，想辦法去滿足社會大眾知的權利，如果我們要限制它，就要從修改法律來著手，而不是在這邊改一些像框定一個採訪範圍、限制我們檢察官跟記者接觸等等，這些都不能夠杜絕跟防止在新聞自由的情況之下，媒體就其他無偵查保密義務的人的身上取得類似這些案情的來源，造成了我們偵查不公開。三個部分，為了避免審判不公平，為了避免侵害隱私，避免這些情況發生，副秘書長同不同意？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長要不要做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請羅智強委員進行詢答。我們現在先宣告一下：剛剛本來宣告11點要處理臨時提案，但是剛剛吳思瑤委員有提出請求，所以我們待會會在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後再進行臨時提案的處理。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}