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這個部長還有我們國防部次長謝謝次長今天撥空過來那因為最近你剛剛也做了一個簡報國防部包括因為財產申報有一些不該留出來的名冊留到了不該的位置那現在這個問題但是對數位部來講"},{"start":41.992,"end":70.477,"text":"這是我們兩年前你現在成立你也兩歲了成立數位部大家的一個期待我們一直在想到底有沒有做到做到多少事實上這兩年來各個機關政府機關那民間的都不算了很多的資料外洩一事一事外流這等等的這個事件一直不斷那直到了我們最近這個國安部這個問題那我先請次長說明一下好不好就是說"},{"start":71.777,"end":88.557,"text":"財產申報然後把這個很多的高層國防部各單位的應該要申報的人員顯然都是蠻高層的作為一個附件這個整包送出啊那送發的對象有多少人多少單位Mail給多少人"},{"start":89.502,"end":97.204,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個送發的對象就有28個單位28個單位嗎28個單位對28個單位他送發的途徑是經由我們軍網的軍網這個軍網的這個系統來做公文做電子公文的傳輸OK軍網那你28個單位都在同一個基地嗎全台灣各地嘛對不對"},{"start":113.967,"end":142.187,"text":"對,也不是說全臺灣問題,就是在大概……都是走你們,全臺灣走你們的軍網?是,是,走我們的軍網。好,那第二個呢,發生這個問題的時候,你做了一個很重要的動作,叫回收。是。回收的意義是什麼?一個Mail出去,這樣啦,我們常常自己PO文啦,我們不管走什麼網,LINE不小心PO出去了。像我們沛翔委員有時候,誒,不該弄的照片,假設被我看到了,他收回沒有用,你知道嗎?"},{"start":142.907,"end":168.418,"text":"或他突然罵我一句收回沒有我不太懂啊這個處理的方式當然你收回不再擴張那可是其實對於有一些機密資料要外洩的時候你送到單位兩個最主要的問題收件人那邊可不可能收件的單位他已經看到不管通過截圖或者任何一個方式然後甚至他存留"},{"start":169.338,"end":186.582,"text":"他搞不好有時候好意不好意有時候我們發覺常常消息漏出去是好意你知道嗎你看我跟怎麼樣怎麼樣這個什麼事情所以這第一個我覺得某種程度的危險資安的危險是已經造成了部長覺得我講的對不對啊"},{"start":189.123,"end":208.249,"text":"他現在收回他現在你你現在在收回的部分其實如果人家該要留存的或者你的軍網我們真的希望他是百分之百安全啦一方面是在網路上可能被截走第二方面是在接收端可能會被傳出去你們這樣的這樣好吧市長你先講你會不會擔心啊"},{"start":208.769,"end":211.85,"text":"二、邀請交通部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長"},{"start":229.818,"end":255.108,"text":"一般的民間或公務機關去,這都在我們軍網裡面傳輸那這個傳輸出去之後,剛剛您問的,說怎麼回收,通常它再回到我們的事務器來對,我知道啦,它收件人如果存入另外一個檔案或怎麼樣,它已經存了不管是用PDF、DOC檔案,它要存就存了啦,你也沒辦法控制最重要說,這麼神秘,我怎麼會知道"},{"start":256.067,"end":262.205,"text":"好不好這麼神秘軍網完全不洩漏我們28個單位都是很棒"},{"start":263.157,"end":285.656,"text":"不會有媒體知道不會有外界知道你自己去想但是我覺得擔心一件事因為你剛剛講說感覺好像問題不大其實我覺得我是蠻憂心的因為在這次我們最近我們看現在戰爭形態變化太大我們看以巴這個戰士對於高層精準的獵殺其實我剛剛開始看到我個人是嚇一跳我不知道軍方看到的是什麼"},{"start":286.317,"end":312.065,"text":"但你再怎麼精準獵殺你也知道這個人是誰才能夠精準當然他們有時候我覺得各地的情報單位要一個一個去找資料都不容易我們整包大放送我是覺得我看到這個我是覺得非常非常的一個擔心我想這個數位部數位部我特別你們要成立兩年對國防部有什麼樣一個幫助"},{"start":313.882,"end":316.825,"text":"所以除外除了國防部之外還有誰?"},{"start":343.732,"end":362.64,"text":"所以你們過去兩年任何的一個作為我們問了半天很多的問題你們要做的一個防護都進不了國防部因為國防部給你們所建立一個資安不管一個新的想法、觀念因為唐鳳部長講的太多了全國最新的一個潮流進不了國防部嘛"},{"start":363.493,"end":389.745,"text":"沒有 報告委員我們跟國防部雖然治安法沒有納管國防部但是國防部是我們情資協防的體系之一所以我們會有任何的攻擊情資我們會給國防部參考那國防部如果收集到攻擊情資他也會跟我們交流所以他是整體的國家的整體治安聯防的體系之一我們是有密切的合作只是說沒有納管他其實我覺得我第二個憂心就在這裡"},{"start":391.397,"end":406.573,"text":"因為我們希望我們國防部一切都很棒資安你也是第一名你比數位部還要強所有的先進的知識所有的跟數位現在的所有的攻擊你隨時都掌握這是我的期待"},{"start":408.854,"end":424.32,"text":"可是國軍內部我們現在的一個狀況是希望委員你都最好都不要什麼問這個不要問那個也不要知道你那個知道的事你可能就可能泄密你可能就是不挺台灣可是問題就是我們就像我是最挺你們啦"},{"start":425.02,"end":451.47,"text":"國安部我們盡量不去問你們國軍辛苦啦挺了半天我覺得你們內部這麼專業到什麼樣一個程度我們也看到我們數位部這兩年直接導入零信任的機制結果確實沒有國安部嘛包括自行導入的機關也沒有寫到國安部國安部在你們的數位部成立之後我們原本希望對於全國所謂私安就是國安"},{"start":452.37,"end":479.867,"text":"私安就是國安但是國防更是國安啊所以你私安做好了你國防完完全全沒有辦法去納入或者把你們新建的一些制度把它進入導入的話我是覺得你的零信任制度原來到了國防部變成零接觸你跟他沒有接觸你的新的方法反正你也不用來看當然可能因為一些保密的一個機制啦所以這時候就會有兩個要件第一個你國防部自己要"},{"start":480.808,"end":481.89,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告"},{"start":497.987,"end":519.574,"text":"然後再來呢這個部分有時候是數位技術的問題你這個是人員管理的問題人員管理的問題怎麼可能一個人振豐市啊我最後問一下我本來今天一大堆要問交通部的算了時間不夠振豐振豐振豐單位請教你一下你到振豐幾年了在這個職務剛到報委員在這個職務今年1月到"},{"start":526.141,"end":528.844,"text":"新的主管加新人可是問題是你知道這個部分因為治安你們自己去做是"},{"start":546.38,"end":569.406,"text":"可是對我來講我們外人後面看到了如果你們比一些公司的管制制度叫做double check或者系統幫你check系統發現他有一些系統我不知道你會發展到這個地步如果沒有你要存請問一下是只有一個人的書師還有上級的主管有幾層去這個資料出去經過了幾層人合格"},{"start":573.59,"end":591.561,"text":"我總共有五個人所以五個人都不知道沒看到所以我可以這樣講說這件事情發生除了基層的我們都以為只有基層的人不小心小指一按所以這個部分以你們制度至少不管怎麼樣的不管電子簽或書面簽網上簽有簽到你嘛對不對是"},{"start":596.653,"end":624.203,"text":"好吧我今天其實請數位部來我們是希望數位部在資訊方面在治安方面甚至署長來要給你們很大的幫忙但是我覺得如果你們零接觸只是資訊的分享那我們現在只能期待你內部有非常好的管理機制但顯然現在是看到沒有所以次長可能要跟部長說我覺得這不是個案"},{"start":625.043,"end":644.039,"text":"一夜之秋到底還有任何一個情況在現在的一個戰爭模式上面我真的是希望你們要好好保護國軍這些的不管是將領一級的一個主管尤其我們的情報人員我覺得這個部分你們"},{"start":645.954,"end":648.536,"text":"的確啦這個是我們承辦人員還有這個合適主管他的疏忽他並沒有去把這個"},{"start":661.448,"end":662.209,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長進行專題報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":682.332,"end":682.652,"text":"不懂的不強的因為"},{"start":709.176,"end":734.933,"text":"我們的數位部或者相關的友軍都在這裡有時候自己教自己的孩子教不來真的教不來第二個也許我自己本身都不會我怎麼教他那有專業人士在這裡你們在不涉及機密的情況我覺得事實上要跟你們的友軍專業單位做密切的交流最後我想請問一下最後我們政風你是政風處長嗎"},{"start":737.192,"end":742.026,"text":"主任那你簽這個完之後你再上層簽給誰啊?"},{"start":745.216,"end":766.197,"text":"公務員報告 這個我們按照分層負責 是我這邊來負責覺醒所以你是第五個嘛 第五個千人就出去了齁對 報告是不過你們五個人真的都沒有去察覺這個問題我覺得 我想說有沒有double check你是五層check還是這樣我覺得管理上面也出了問題好 我今天就問到這裡 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請我們數位部黃部長、國防部楊基榮楊次長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長及我們國防部次長，謝謝次長今天撥空過來，你剛剛也做了一個簡報，國防部因為財產申報，有一些不該流出來的名冊，流到了不該的位置，現在有這個問題，但是對數位部來講，現在你也兩歲了，兩年前成立數位部，對於大家的期待，我們一直在想到底有沒有做到、做到多少？事實上，這兩年來各個政府機關，民間的都不算了，很多的資料外洩、疑似外流等等的事件一直不斷，直到了最近國防部的這個問題，我先請次長說明一下，好不好？財產申報把國防部各單位應該要申報的人員，顯然都是滿高層的，做了一個附件整包送出，那送發的對象有多少人？多少單位？mail給多少人？"],["楊次長基榮：跟委員報告一下，送發的對象有28個單位。"],["魯委員明哲：28個單位嘛？"],["楊次長基榮：是，有28個單位。它送發的途徑是經由我們軍網的系統來做電子公文傳輸。"],["魯委員明哲：OK，軍網？"],["楊次長基榮：是。"],["魯委員明哲：28個單位都在同一個基地嗎？是全臺灣各地嘛，對不對？"],["楊次長基榮：也不是說全臺灣，就是在大概……"],["魯委員明哲：全臺灣都是走你們的軍網？"],["楊次長基榮：是！走我們的軍網。"],["魯委員明哲：好。第二個，發生這個問題的時候，你做了一個很重要的動作叫回收，回收的意義是什麼？一個mail送出去，我們常常自己po文，我們不管走什麼網，LINE不小心po出去了，像沛祥委員有時候不該弄的照片，假設被我看到了，他收回沒有用你知道嘛，或者他突然罵我一句，收回。我不太懂這個處理的方式，當然你收回不再擴張，可是對於有些機密資料外洩的時候，你送到單位後，兩個最主要的問題，可不可能收件的單位已經看到了，不管透過截圖或任何一個方式，甚至他存留，他搞不好有時候是好意或不好意，有時候我們發覺常常消息洩漏出去是好意的，你知道嗎？所以第一個我覺得某種程度的資安危險是已經造成了，部長，你覺得我講的對不對？你現在在收回的部分，如果人家該要留存的，或者你的軍網，我們真的希望它是百分之百安全啦！一方面是在網路上可能被截走，第二方面是在接收端可能會被傳出去，這樣好不好，次長你先講，你會不會擔心啊？"],["楊次長基榮：跟委員報告，首先回答委員第一個問題，我剛剛報告過了，這份公文循著軍網傳輸，但是都在我們內部的環境裡面，我們內部的環境是有實體隔離的，所以它不會隨隨便便就外流到一般民間或公務機關去，這都在我們軍網裡面傳輸。當這個傳輸出去之後，剛剛您問的怎麼回收，通常它會再回到我們的伺服器後台。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道啦！收件人如果存入另外的檔案位置，他已經存了，不管你是用pdf、doc檔案，他要存就存了，你也沒辦法控制，最重要是這麼神秘我怎麼會知道，好不好？這麼神秘，軍網完全不洩漏，我們28個單位都是很棒，不會有媒體知道，不會有外界知道，你自己去想嘛！但是我就會擔心一件事，因為你剛剛講感覺好像問題不大，其實我是滿憂心的。最近我們看現在的戰爭型態變化太大，我們看以巴戰事，對於高層精準的獵殺，其實我剛開始看到，我個人是嚇一跳，我不知道軍方看到的是什麼，再怎麼精準獵殺，你也要知道這個人是誰才能夠精準，我覺得各地的情報單位要一個一個去找資料都不容易啊！我們是整包大放送，我看到這個，我是覺得非常、非常的擔心。我想問數位部，你們現在成立了兩年，對國防部有什麼樣的幫助啊？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們納管資安法，納管單位其實沒有包括國防部，所以我們在做很多政府的稽核及演練，主要是針對中央政府機關，再加上一些CI的單位，但是並沒有包括……"],["魯委員明哲：所以除了國防部之外，還有誰？還有哪個單位也除外呢？"],["黃部長彥男：署長可以再進一步說明。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們過去兩年任何的作為，我們問了半天，很多的問題，你們要做的防護都進不了國防部，因為國防部跟你們所建立的資安，不管是新的想法、觀念，因為唐鳳部長講了太多了，全國最新的潮流進不了國防部嗎？"],["謝署長翠娟：報告委員，雖然資安法沒有納管國防部，但是國防部是我們情資協防的體系之一，有任何的攻擊情資，我們會給國防部參考，國防部如果蒐集到攻擊情資，也會跟我們交流，所以它是國家整體資安聯防的體系之一，我們是有密切的合作，只是說沒有納管它。"],["魯委員明哲：其實我覺得第二個憂心的就在這裡，因為我們希望國防部一切都很棒，資安你也是第一名，你比數位部還要強，所有的先進知識、所有現在數位的攻擊，你隨時都掌握，這是我的期待。可是國軍內部現在的狀況是希望委員最好什麼都不要問，這個也不要問、那個也不要知道，如果知道了，就可能會洩密，可能就是不挺臺灣，但像我是最挺你們啦！國防部我們儘量不去問，你們國軍辛苦啦！挺了半天，我覺得你們內部專業到什麼樣的程度，我們也看到數位部這兩年直接導入零信任機制，結果確實沒有國防部嘛！包括自行導入機關也沒有寫到國防部，國防部在你們數位部成立之後，我們原本希望對於全國來說，資安就是國安，但是國防更是國安啊！所以你資安做好了，但國防完完全全沒有辦法去納入，或者把你們新建的一些制度導入的話，我是覺得你的零信任制度，原來到了國防部變成零接觸，你跟它沒有接觸，你們新的方法反正它也不用來看，當然可能是因為一些保密的機制啦！","所以這時候就會有兩個要件，第一個，國防部自己要夠強，不能只是說我們都不能看，強的方法不是圍牆做得很強，大家都不要問，我講真的，你們數位的圍牆要圍得比數位部還要高；再來，這個部分有時候是數位技術的問題，但這個是人員管理的問題。政風室，我最後問一下，我本來今天一大堆問題要問交通部的，算了，時間不夠。政風單位，請教你一下，你到政風在這個職務幾年了？剛到？"],["王主任鎮國：報告委員，在這個職務今年1月到。"],["魯委員明哲：今年1月嘛？"],["王主任鎮國：是。"],["魯委員明哲：你們的作法跟去年比有沒有什麼改變？"],["王主任鎮國：今年單純是人員的疏失。"],["魯委員明哲：人員變了嗎？"],["王主任鎮國：人員也是新人。"],["魯委員明哲：所以是新的主管加新人，可是問題是，你知道，這部分因為資安你們自己去做，可是對我來講，我們外人後面看到的，如果你們去比一些公司的管制制度，如double check，或者系統幫你check，當系統發覺它有一些問題，我不知道你們有沒有發展到這個地步，如果沒有，請問一下是只有一個人的疏失，這個資料出去，經過幾層上級主管核可？"],["王主任鎮國：總共有5個人。"],["魯委員明哲：所以5個人都不知道、沒看到？所以我可以這樣講說，這件事情發生，除了基層的，我們都以為只有基層的人不小心手指一按，所以這個部分以你們的制度，至少不管怎麼樣，不管電子簽或書面簽、網上簽，有簽到你嘛！對不對？"],["王主任鎮國：是。"],["魯委員明哲：好吧！我今天其實請數位部來，甚至署長來，我們是希望數位部在資訊方面、在資安方面，要給你們很大的幫忙，但是我覺得如果你們零接觸，只是資訊的分享，那我們現在只能期待你內部有非常好的管理機制，但顯然現在看到是沒有，所以次長可能要跟部長說，我覺得這不是個案，一葉知秋，到底還有什麼樣的情況，在現在的戰爭模式上面，我真的是希望你們要好好保護國軍這些不管是將領、一級主管，尤其我們的情報人員，我覺得這個部分你們不能這樣，我覺得太疏忽了，你做個結論好不好？"],["楊次長基榮：是，謝謝委員剛剛的指導，我在這邊再跟委員報告一遍，的確這個是我們承辦人員還有核示主管的疏忽，他並沒有去把電子公文裡面有關於名冊的附件做個區隔，所以有些部分比較機敏的人員包含在這個名冊裡面，因為這個名冊本身也只是職務、職稱跟姓名，並沒有涉及到其他有關於個人的這些……"],["魯委員明哲：次長，不要再這樣講了，你知道嗎？"],["楊次長基榮：跟委員做說明，另外一個真的就是純粹是人為疏忽，這個我們必須要去檢討，資安上我們也去檢視一下，在資安上我們是沒問題，現在國防部對資安要求都是非常高的……"],["魯委員明哲：好，次長，我也希望如果你們真的有一些不懂的、不強的，因為我們的數位部或者相關你的友軍都在這裡，有時候自己教自己的孩子教不來，真的教不來。第二個，也許我自己本身都不會我怎麼教他，有專業人士在這裡，你們在不涉及機密的情況，我覺得事實上要跟你們的友軍、專業單位做密切的交流。最後我想請問一下政風，你是政風處長嗎？"],["楊次長基榮：政風室的主任。"],["魯委員明哲：主任嘛！主任，那你簽完之後，你再上呈簽給誰啊？"],["王主任鎮國：跟委員報告，我們按照分層負責，是我這邊來負責決行。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你是第5個嘛！第5個簽就出去了。"],["王主任鎮國：是，報告是。"],["魯委員明哲：不過你們5個人真的都沒有去察覺這個問題，我想說有沒有double check，你是五層check還是這樣，我覺得管理上面也出了問題。好，我今天就問到這裡，謝謝。"],["楊次長基榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。"],["主席（魯委員明哲）：好，接下來有請陳素月召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}