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委員長還有這個廉政署的馮署長以及調查局的吳副局長麻煩"},{"start":46.868,"end":74.544,"text":"幾位長官剛剛看到部長很辛苦一直在Defense偵查不公開的事情其實你現在隨便到台灣的任何的城市從北到南、從南到北任何的一個角落去問張山理事隨便問我們偵查有沒有公開或者說偵查不公開"},{"start":76.451,"end":95.329,"text":"百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一者從最近的看到柯文哲的事情一路的好像北檢跟這個週刊是聯合作戰了"},{"start":96.403,"end":120.451,"text":"穿同一條褲子的好像是同一個單位的部長難道你你不覺得就外面我我就告訴你外面現在看到的是什麼看到說週刊報個料然後呢媒體就開始大幅報導爭論節目就播然後那個就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判我原來就不相信了"},{"start":122.199,"end":134.628,"text":"我原來都不相信了後面那些奇怪怎麼他一播一登然後呢這個媒體再一登再一政論節目再一講欸過兩天都真的都真的"},{"start":136.035,"end":164.52,"text":"可見得這個洩密很嚴重啊來部長你講一下我認為媒體的報導有它的一個媒體報導是有它的天職它那個報導大部分就是捕風捉影嘛演繹嘛那媒體的一個娛樂的一個效果嘛那我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位都要嚴格落實偵查不公如果有查到有這些的違反偵查不公我們就是淹犯了那我想這個我們"},{"start":165.18,"end":190.459,"text":"可是你們調查結果都沒有啊都說沒有違反不公開都是沒有公開啊那因為媒體報導我們第一個線一定要是從那個媒體我們要請媒體來約談媒體嘛那麼現在媒體能夠你們辦了沒有你們辦了幾屆我們總共有15間這幾年了有15間有成立最近最近因為最近柯P的事情柯P的事情鬧得崩潰於耳哪一間今天有一間什麼時候辦的"},{"start":192.096,"end":193.197,"text":"所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過"},{"start":202.581,"end":205.824,"text":"現在有在分案在瞭解就是調查到底是...都沒有辦過!"},{"start":205.824,"end":210.208,"text":"抗爭案子都沒有辦過!現在有在偵辦啊!有在偵辦啊!有嗎?"},{"start":210.208,"end":225.002,"text":"你剛剛說一件花零的...那個是成立處分 因為這是處分已經調查後成立的違反偵查不公開的是有一件但是現在委員會關心的這些現在的這些媒體在報導的這些那個北捷有在分案在處..."},{"start":226.263,"end":231.587,"text":"我原來啊還對你們有抱一絲絲的覺得說哎呀我相信司法啦相信法務部啊結果看到前幾天有個新聞媒體講說要把舉子列為被告欸今天果然被列為被告啊吼吼有夠準啦媒體這麼厲害這如果不是你們洩露出去了怕死了不要再審他都講了前幾天講了要把舉子列為被告結果就已經列為被告了有夠準啦有夠準啦"},{"start":255.425,"end":272.456,"text":"什麼很厲害這個有些的話就是依照作為辦法要適度的一個公開因為違反是不能程序內容跟德行證的理由這個是不能公開的不公開的是程序內容所德行證都不可以公開結果現在公開的一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":274.898,"end":275.638,"text":"我提醒你啊"},{"start":300.829,"end":306.352,"text":"我提醒你啊檢察院糾正過警政署及調查局檢察院正式糾正警政署調查局洩密違反偵查不公開請教那個翁代理主委啊"},{"start":318.271,"end":343.581,"text":"委員好他們在媒體揭露有部分是真的有部分是假的這部分你們要不要去查一下這個東西報告委員這個我們都有受理民眾來申訴之後啊我們就按照那個有一個SOP就是我們會去把這個那個內容測錄帶調出來然後請那個相關的當事人呈訴意見那現在有11件已經在處理了"},{"start":345.762,"end":349.979,"text":"最近有沒有關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理有有 起見起見"},{"start":352.048,"end":380.569,"text":"申訴有414件但是是不同的案情我們都有記錄而且我們就按照依法行政現在就是有沒有對外公佈我們還沒有做決定之前我們不會去公佈什麼時候要公佈我們有一定的程序就是依法受理之後啊進行必要的行政程序提到我們那個節目內容廣告諮詢委員會那有一定的時間"},{"start":381.81,"end":384.571,"text":"法務部的正部長還有翁大理主委你們兩個責任很重現在你們兩個由於消極的不作為或者故意的配合特別是法務部現在已經跟靜州幹事綁在一起了你們完全綁在一起了"},{"start":400.539,"end":415.813,"text":"這個沒有證據這個沒有什麼綁在一起這個我必須要澄清的故事大家的了解就很簡單這是一個誤解你們有檢察官怎麼樣怎麼樣直接進階把消息漏給靜州刊這個沒有證據這個沒有證據而且我相信我們檢察不會去丟出來對我們的辦公室有幫助對我們的辦公室絕對是沒有幫助我話沒有講你不要急嘛然後呢就透過這樣子媒體這樣子操作就輿論定罪"},{"start":428.029,"end":431.693,"text":"這個要辦人講證據我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯沒有人反對沒有人反對但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作操作沒有人認同沒有人可以接受我也沒辦法認同那個委員就是說"},{"start":449.273,"end":449.794,"text":"我們沒有這回事"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時1分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請法務部部長，以及NCC翁代理主委。"],["主席：有請部長、翁代理主委。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：還有廉政署馮署長，以及調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：麻煩各位。"],["賴委員士葆：剛剛看到部長很辛苦，一直在defense偵查不公開的事情。其實你現在到臺灣的任何城市，從北到南，從南到北，任何一個角落，隨便去問張三、李四─我們偵查有沒有公開？或者是偵查不公開？百分之一百的受訪者都會告訴你：我們如果講偵查不公開叫做笑話一則！從最近看到的柯文哲事情，一路好像是北檢跟這個週刊聯合作戰，穿同一條褲子的，好像是同一個單位的，部長難道不覺得？我告訴你外面現在看到了什麼？看到週刊爆個料，媒體就開始大幅報導，政論節目就播，然後就造成輿論上的一個類似裁判！我原來都不相信，後來就覺得很奇怪，怎麼媒體一登，政論節目再一講，過兩天都真的，可見得這個洩密很嚴重。部長請說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為媒體報導有他的天職，而他那個報導大部分都是捕風捉影，演繹，是媒體的一個娛樂效果嘛！我相信我們都有嚴格要求我們自己所屬的單位，都要嚴格落實偵查不公開，如果查到違反偵查不公開的話，我們就是嚴辦！我想這個我們就……"],["賴委員士葆：可是你們調查結果都說沒違反不公開原則，也沒有公開。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為媒體報導，我們第一條線一定是從媒體開始，要請來約談媒體，我們也希望媒體能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：你們辦了沒有？你們辦了幾件？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這幾年總共有15件成立……"],["賴委員士葆：最近、最近，因為柯P的事情鬧得風風雨雨。"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年有一件。"],["賴委員士葆：哪一件？什麼時候辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個月花蓮地檢署查……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候辦的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年第二季就是4月到6月這一季。"],["賴委員士葆：所以柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在我們在分案了解，調查到底……"],["賴委員士葆：都沒有辦過？柯文哲的案子都沒有辦過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在有在偵辦啊。"],["賴委員士葆：有在辦啊有嗎？你說的一件是花蓮的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是成立處分，就是已經調查後成立─違反偵查不公開有一件。委員關心這些媒體現在報導的這些，北檢已在分案處理。"],["賴委員士葆：我原來對你們還抱一絲絲的信任─相信司法！相信法務部！結果看到前幾天，有新聞媒體說要把橘子列入被告，果然今天就列為被告，有夠準！媒體這麼厲害！這如果不是你們洩漏出去的，打死也沒人相信！他們前幾天就講了，要把橘子列為被告，結果就列為被告了，有夠準的！為什麼這麼厲害？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有些依照作業辦法，要有一個適度的公開，但程序、內容跟所得之心證是不能公開的……"],["賴委員士葆：不公開的是程序、內容、所得之心證，都不可以公開……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個都不能公開。"],["賴委員士葆：結果現在公開得一塌糊塗啊！你可以想啊，什麼幾大金主，裡面一堆的帳，這個怎麼都是你們在洩漏的一塌糊塗啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不能夠說是我們洩漏，如果真有這回事，也不能說是我們洩漏，因為可以接觸到這些資訊的人，實在是太多了。委員有細看作業辦法第五條、第六條，你就可以很清楚，這裡面包括偵查系統的、調查的，包括司法法院，甚至律師都有接觸……"],["賴委員士葆：我提醒你，監察院糾正過警政署及調查局，監察院正式糾正過警政署、調查局洩密，違反偵查不公開。我想請教翁代理主委。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：他們在媒體揭露的，有部分是真的，有部分是假的，你們要不要去查一下這個東西？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個我們委員都有受理，民眾來申訴之後，我們會按照SOP，去把那個內容的側錄帶調出來，然後請相關的當事人陳述意見。現在有11件已經在處理了。"],["賴委員士葆：最近關於柯文哲的事情有沒有受理？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有幾件？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：申訴有414件，是不同的案情，我們都有紀錄，我們就依法行政，現在就是……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有對外公布？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：還沒有做決定之前，我們不會公布。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候公布？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：我們有一定的程序，就是依法受理之後，進行必要的行政程序，提到我們的節目內容廣告諮詢委員會，它有一定的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：法務部鄭部長還有翁代理主委，你們兩個責任很重啊，由於你們兩個消極的不作為或者故意的配合，特別是法務部，現在已經跟鏡週刊綁在一起啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我要澄清……"],["賴委員士葆：你們完全綁在一起啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有跟鏡週刊綁在一起啦，沒有什麼綁在一起的，這個我必須要澄清！"],["賴委員士葆：大家對故事的了解就很簡單……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個誤解。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有檢察官怎麼樣直接、間接把消息漏給鏡週刊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有證據，這個沒有證據，而且我相信我們檢察官不會去這樣做……"],["賴委員士葆：由鏡週刊丟出來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對我們辦案也沒有幫助，對我們辦案絕對是沒有幫助。"],["賴委員士葆：我的話還沒有講完，你不要急嘛！然後就透過媒體這樣子操作，就輿論定罪！要辦人講證據，我們絕對支持法務部嚴格去辦任何的貪污犯，沒有人反對；但是你們這樣赤裸裸的違反偵查不公開原則，特別是跟特定的媒體這樣子合作、操作，沒有人能認同，沒有人可以接受！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我也沒辦法認同委員直接認定，就是我們檢調廉政署赤裸裸的去跟媒體勾結洩密，我們不承認有這件事情……"],["賴委員士葆：勾結是你說的，我沒說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有這回事。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}