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有了整個我們都沒收嘛所以這個就有一套的管理的機制一定要有養殖事實那沒有電業許可之後勒?那是指把他的整個案場沒收?你怎麼說到明?直接說到明?對,那個案場就直接收歸國有?"},{"start":314.756,"end":338.541,"text":"還是怎樣啊?就是你們要講清楚這個法則是這樣,這樣才會讓大家去警覺到說我們現在要在這個地方投入魚電共生,我們不要用這種投機式的,那個明明的說養殖才是一個重點,結果看起來沒有人把養殖當作重點,我真的沒有遇到說我要在這個魚電共生場好好來養殖,沒有啦,真的沒有啦,好不好?"},{"start":342.123,"end":368.801,"text":"所以我覺得市長這件事我們要要緊啦!要要緊!其實我們現在在跟農業部也在討論說要是不是因為有像委員講的這樣的一個事情我們現在也在跟農業部在討論說是不是採用一些新的機制避免這樣的一個情況發生這樣子我們現在目前這個機制正在演繹中市長我相信你也知道站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能"},{"start":369.862,"end":398.041,"text":"但是我們覺得說我們一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚這樣我們在推展綠能的時候才不會被有很多投機的或者是他是用很多不法的手段然後來達到他們有發展他們投入綠能的一個效果就既然這個地方我們強調養魚為主的餘電共生這樣我們就要一開始他的計畫就要好啊他到底要怎麼跟地方的漁民來做合作還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣"},{"start":400.043,"end":412.32,"text":"這事情都還沒有講清楚結果大家一窩蜂在投入現在我看起來真的我感覺起來有很多真的沒有在養魚啦"},{"start":413.463,"end":413.643,"text":"應該是長7%吧?"},{"start":437.825,"end":453.791,"text":"我要查一下鋼鐵是要漲7%嗎?鋼鐵是他有調漲到對他有調漲只是說他是減半調漲我要再查一下我來查一下好沒關係我直接說啦事實上我是代為去轉"},{"start":454.791,"end":466.344,"text":"轉述一些業者的一個心聲因為鋼鐵業這幾年事實上遇到的是包括中國這邊的一些打壓事實上我們這幾年來鋼鐵業的"},{"start":469.748,"end":492.313,"text":"成長是不好的他們的這個獲利是差的所以這一次的漲電價事實上對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊但是他們現在應該是沒有被認定是在減半的一個行業別裡面所以我想這部分我們經濟部可能再斟酌一下是不是在於說要調漲電價這個應該是"},{"start":494.393,"end":495.314,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請經濟部次長？"],["主席：經濟部連次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有能源署游署長。"],["主席：署長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，今天整個媒體是聚焦在臺鹽公司在臺南以及嘉義，他們的綠能有涉及弊案。"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：就我來說，也是在選區嘛！其中有一場在義竹，我想要請教的是，這樣的一個弊案，發生了這樣的狀況，現在當然正在調查中，請問經濟部對於當時這個案件的發生，你們掌握的程度是怎樣？"],["連次長錦漳：我可不可以請副司長？"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，這個案子我們當時掌握到之後，我們有做一些調查，也有把相關資料直接主動移送。"],["蔡委員易餘：調查是在什麼時候？"],["劉副司長起孝：在112年的時候。"],["蔡委員易餘：112年。"],["劉副司長起孝：對，在去年的時候。"],["蔡委員易餘：去年你們開始調查。"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那就臺鹽公司呢？臺鹽公司他們的內部調查。"],["劉副司長起孝：對，內部調查之後，他們也主動提送相關的資料。"],["蔡委員易餘：當時臺鹽公司董事長是？"],["劉副司長起孝：陳董事長，陳啟昱陳董事長。"],["蔡委員易餘：陳啟昱的時候，之後的調查是在吳容輝董事長的時代嘛？"],["劉副司長起孝：不是，那個時候吳董事長已經離開了。"],["蔡委員易餘：吳董事長離開。"],["劉副司長起孝：已經離開，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們有做內部調查？"],["劉副司長起孝：對，是。"],["蔡委員易餘：內部調查後，你們的調查資料有送給檢調嗎？"],["劉副司長起孝：對，臺鹽公司有把相關的資料送到檢調單位。"],["蔡委員易餘：送給檢調單位。"],["劉副司長起孝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這一件就是勿枉勿縱，該偵辦就應該要好好偵辦。"],["劉副司長起孝：是，我們會全力配合。"],["蔡委員易餘：我接下來要請教次長和署長，事實上相關的綠能產業，尤其是像我們這邊的漁電共生，我一直有在就教經濟部，如果這樣的綠能產業發生弊案的時候，它的後端處理是怎樣？這個弊案有可能是說，像這一件可能涉及到工程弊案，而我在意的是，漁電共生如果發生假養魚，沒有養魚，但是它一樣在發電，它的處罰機制到底是什麼？還是署長來說？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，如果是漁電共生，它當然是養殖為主，然後綠能加值，所以有關於漁業養殖這件事情，農業部及地方的漁業主管機關會去查核，如果查核到沒有養魚……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，會查核我知道，署長，我跟你說啦！如果真的是養殖為主，發電為輔，我在跑選區的時候應該會聽到很多人說我現在是替這些綠能公司來養魚，我現在的工作就是替他們養，可是我好少聽到，我幾乎沒有聽到，還是說他們都是請外部的人，請專家去養魚，這個專家都住在遙遠的地方，所以我在跑選區的時候都遇不到？我真的很少聽到，所以我要說的是，像這個是屬於工程弊案，工程弊案當然是由司法來認定，我是說今天說的、發生的案子，但是有其他的弊案是他作弊，也許還沒有到達刑事的強度，但是他作弊啊！很明顯，他的養魚，今天沒有農業單位啦！"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，你有沒有聽過「買魚金」這個名詞？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：你沒聽過。"],["連次長錦漳：因為我不是……"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是漁業的可能就知道，「買魚金」就是說他們會去開假發票，因為我們也知道農漁事實上是不用繳稅，他們開發票出來很難被查核，所以他就有「買魚金」，也就是所謂的假發票。他如果說好，在漁電共生的地方我就去生一張發票，我說裡面有養魚，結果養魚是假的，那這件事有沒有罰則？有沒有處罰？而且署長，我記得我在上一屆就跟你建議過了，處罰就很簡單啊！他的發電不要給他，他沒有養，當年度他的發電都不可以拿。"],["游署長振偉：這件事情後來有跟農業部協調過，就是如果沒有養殖事實，經過限期改善不改善的話，它會撤銷農業許可，我們就撤銷電業許可。"],["連次長錦漳：就取消。"],["蔡委員易餘：就直接撤銷電業許可？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：撤銷電業許可又有分為幾個層次啊！第一個，電費的部分呢？"],["游署長振偉：如果他的電業執照被撤銷，當然整個就沒有了。"],["蔡委員易餘：整個都沒收嘛！"],["游署長振偉：所以這個有一套管理機制，一定要有養殖事實。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有電業許可之後，是指把他的整個案場沒收？你們要說清楚，直接說清楚，那個案場就直接收歸國有還是怎樣？你們要講清楚這個罰則是怎樣，才會讓大家去警覺到說我們要在這個地方投入漁電共生，我們不要用這種投機式的。明明有說養殖才是重點，結果我看起來，沒有人把養殖當作重點，我真的沒有遇到有人說我要在漁電共生場好好來養殖，沒有啦！真的沒有啦！好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以次長，我覺得這件事我們要重視。"],["連次長錦漳：好，其實我們現在跟農業部也在討論，像委員講的這種事情，我們現在也跟農業部在討論是不是採用一些新的機制，避免這樣的情況發生，目前這個機制正在研擬中，如果有的話，應該要避免這樣的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我相信你也知道，站在我的立場我是很鼓勵地方發展綠能，但是我們覺得一定要先把遊戲規則講清楚。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣我們在推展綠能的時候，才不會被很多投機的，或者是用很多不法的手段來達到他們投入綠能的效果，既然我們強調養魚為主的漁電共生，一開始他的計畫就要好啊！"],["連次長錦漳：對，要把話講清楚。"],["蔡委員易餘：他到底要怎麼和地方的漁民來合作，還是說他們養魚計畫是怎樣，這些事情都還沒有講清楚，結果大家一窩蜂在投入，現在我看起來，我感覺起來，有很多真的沒有在養魚啦！好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個我覺得要注意一下。"],["連次長錦漳：我們已經在檢討改善了。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，因為這一次整個電價調漲，我想請教一下，就鋼鐵業來說，他們現在是不是在減半調漲的範圍？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是漲7%吧！我要查一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：鋼鐵是……"],["連次長錦漳：它有調漲到。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，它有調漲，我是說它是不是減半調漲？"],["連次長錦漳：我來查一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係，我直接說啦！事實上我是代為轉述一些業者的心聲，因為鋼鐵業這幾年遇到……"],["連次長錦漳：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括中國這邊的打壓，事實上這幾年來鋼鐵業的成長是不好的，他們的獲利是差的，所以這一次漲電價對於鋼鐵業是有相當的衝擊，但是他們現在應該沒有被認定在減半的行業別裡面，所以這部分經濟部可能再斟酌一下。調漲電價應該是為了反映台電的成本，但是對於個別產業別遇到衝擊的時候，我們是不是可以考慮得再細膩一些？這樣好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們看用什麼方式來協助他們。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員精準質詢，次長先回座。","下一位質詢請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}