{"error":false,"id":["155955"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155955,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155955","日期":"2024-10-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-23-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-23T11:10:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-23T11:22:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d63552259763a3d44448446428ab222207fe99cfeeb60987bc2dd14c04eb8ab3b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:10:22 - 11:22:16","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.101593750000001,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.56909375,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.563468750000002,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.22971875,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.83721875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.23784375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.089718750000003,"end":35.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.345968750000004,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":39.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.77159375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.84721875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.994718750000004,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":44.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.673468750000005,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.63096875,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.55846875,"end":54.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.14471875,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.78534375,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.68346875,"end":63.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.22346875000001,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.88909375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.64409375000001,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.26409375,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.79909375000001,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":80.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.48659375000001,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.61659375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.53971875,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.00721875,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.47534375000001,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.56784375000001,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.91784375,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.06971875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.33971875,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.01034375,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.90471875,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.01409375,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.95846875000001,"end":115.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.50159375000001,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.04409375,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.21596875,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.34159375000002,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.35784375,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":154.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.06534375,"end":160.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.18721875,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.65034375000002,"end":168.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.74721875,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.13534375,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.92721875,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.15034375000002,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.74909375000001,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.23409375,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.82471875000002,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.35596875000002,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.99659375000002,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.65034375000002,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.94534375,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.91971875000002,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.22284375,"end":205.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.92284375000003,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.12471875,"end":218.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.15284375000002,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.07221875000002,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.42471875,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.98971875,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.22971875000002,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.61721875,"end":244.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.90409375000002,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.06846875000002,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.37596875000003,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.27034375000002,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.86909375000002,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.89846875,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.22721875,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.72909375,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.37034375,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.38721875,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.43784375,"end":260.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.45471875000004,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.19159375000004,"end":268.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.64721875000004,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.57534375,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.99971875,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.44534375,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.01409375000003,"end":302.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.27909375,"end":302.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.43096875000003,"end":313.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.26034375,"end":314.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.59784375000004,"end":323.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.11971875,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.52471875000003,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.57534375,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.43596875000003,"end":330.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.93284375,"end":333.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.56534375,"end":340.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.63596875,"end":343.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.47096875,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.79159375,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.80846875000003,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.26409375000003,"end":344.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.25971875000005,"end":345.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.40721875,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.98096875000005,"end":349.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.10284375000003,"end":353.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.83221875000004,"end":358.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.45596875,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.74596875000003,"end":371.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.36534375,"end":371.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.14159375,"end":375.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.15784375000004,"end":377.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.01409375000003,"end":382.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.22846875000005,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.06784375,"end":391.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.78409375,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.47534375000004,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.53346875000005,"end":403.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.72721875,"end":406.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.88721875000005,"end":407.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.32596875,"end":412.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.04659375,"end":415.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.61159375000005,"end":417.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.24846875000003,"end":418.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.36221875,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.64909375,"end":423.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.01534375,"end":424.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.33159375,"end":430.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.98471875,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.41471875,"end":437.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.27471875000003,"end":439.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.11409375000005,"end":451.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.11221875,"end":452.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.75346875,"end":456.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.46159375,"end":461.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.16971875,"end":468.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.43034375,"end":468.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.47659375,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.78409375,"end":473.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.42096875000004,"end":483.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.85409375,"end":488.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.96721875000003,"end":491.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.12284375,"end":494.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.80596875000003,"end":498.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.00784375,"end":502.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.95659375,"end":505.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.44971875000005,"end":509.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.57159375000003,"end":513.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0265937500001,"end":516.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.51971875,"end":527.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.47596875,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.28971875,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.05284375,"end":542.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.81534375,"end":545.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.92034375,"end":547.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.16471875,"end":549.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.31221875,"end":551.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.6028437500001,"end":561.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.79971875,"end":562.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.5759687500001,"end":565.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.74846875,"end":566.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7734687500001,"end":569.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.0515937499999,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.05971875,"end":572.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.36346875,"end":575.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.6203437500001,"end":577.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.0165937500001,"end":578.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.36659375,"end":580.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.21034375,"end":581.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.1172187500001,"end":582.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.9272187500001,"end":588.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.91784375,"end":595.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0053437500001,"end":598.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.2790937500001,"end":602.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.7509687500001,"end":606.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.10909375,"end":609.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.85534375,"end":611.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.8172187499999,"end":613.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.5847187500001,"end":616.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.5378437500001,"end":621.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.9253437500001,"end":625.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.7390937499999,"end":626.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.46471875,"end":628.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.86096875,"end":637.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.5178437500001,"end":637.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.73721875,"end":643.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.8290937500001,"end":646.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.7822187500001,"end":647.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.99721875,"end":650.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.81534375,"end":652.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.4309687500001,"end":655.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.40096875,"end":663.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.5178437500001,"end":665.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.96909375,"end":667.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.26409375,"end":674.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.3897187500002,"end":676.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.35971875,"end":679.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.19471875,"end":683.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.56534375,"end":687.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.67034375,"end":690.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.5390937500001,"end":691.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.9565937500001,"end":692.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.0703437500001,"end":694.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.99409375,"end":698.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.9428437500001,"end":701.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.9253437500001,"end":706.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.9584687500001,"end":707.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.03846875,"end":713.21909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.427,"end":13.371,"text":"好特別謝謝主席請交通部陳部長跟交通部陳部長杜董事長台鐵公司杜董事長好謝謝兩位早我看了一下台鐵公司"},{"start":30.342,"end":46.729,"text":"這個營業項目的收支概況也就是我們簡單講臺鐵公司的財務狀況這個看起來今年那個杜董事長應該你們的預估是虧淨利是虧74億是嗎是明年還是虧明年還是那杜董事長這個財務狀況裡面你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡"},{"start":56.689,"end":75.856,"text":"虧損如果是以帳面價值來看就是會計帳來看的話主要的原因是我們的折舊很龐大那折舊的話邏輯上如果折舊攤體是一定要的那如果以這樣來看最主要這個折舊還是來自於這個運輸的這個本業"},{"start":81.999,"end":90.884,"text":"其他的臺鐵包括土地資產的開發包括像便當這種商品的其他部門的營業狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":92.894,"end":118.669,"text":"其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有比較沒有那個折舊的影響不是他是虧損還是他是虧損還是獲利獲利土地開發也獲利土地開發也獲利所有商品也獲利商品也獲利好那只有本業虧損其他的都賺錢大體上是這樣那還有什麼部門你覺得有機會可以賺錢"},{"start":120.903,"end":147.937,"text":"我們主要有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦但是主要可以不受折舊影響來賺錢的話如果可以切開看的話是資產開發應該沒有人不算折舊啦那這個公司大概太好經營了折舊一定要算嘛那本席只是覺得說是不是因為我臺鐵公司這個其實我主要問部長是說"},{"start":149.398,"end":152.281,"text":"明年會虧74億,明年預估虧87億每一個部門的KPI,每一個部門的營業目標"},{"start":165.848,"end":191.682,"text":"你有請同仁們提出嗎?有那這些虧87億都是你覺得合理每一個部門提出之後你覺得合理所以你估算出這個數字嗎?那本席是不是要求你把每一個部門怎麼算?可不可以給本席?可以因為對臺鐵公司來講,立法院就像公司的監察人"},{"start":193.069,"end":208.968,"text":"我們很想知道每一個部門他怎麼去看待明年的營業就你現在是公司啦公司邏輯上不要再吃大鍋飯嘛所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛那有一個目標我們以目標的方式來監督"},{"start":210.33,"end":232.2,"text":"我覺得這個才對臺鐵公司合理不然立法院來大家只挑一個地點挑一個點就開始罵開始批評那明年又換新的我認為這沒有辦法系統性的監督臺鐵所以我覺得應該你有一個KPI讓我來看我明年我就按照你的KPI我來追蹤來要求這些目標可不可以達成我認為這樣對臺鐵的監理才是第二個有一些東西雖然賺錢董事長你會不會覺得他賺太少"},{"start":240.285,"end":251.206,"text":"譬如說我舉個例子我剛剛林俊鑫好像也有提到便當我們去年賺去年營業額是7億多對不對去年賺了多少錢"},{"start":253.03,"end":279.62,"text":"一億多七億、七億賺一億啦好那十幾趴十幾趴對對對你比較起其他的餐飲就跟我們類型類似的來講你的營業利率其實有比較有比贏過人家嗎沒有沒有還是沒有嗎所以這個就是我覺得說如果我們覺得跟我們的同業比我們的營業利率相對低那我們就應該有精進的空間表示說"},{"start":281.055,"end":302.683,"text":"我們的營業額7億不錯但是我們一定是管銷費用或者什麼費用比人家高所以我們才會我們的營業利益才會比別人低嘛就這個邏輯你懂嗎所以應該我們用這樣的方式讓台鐵公司一個部門一個部門來檢討像土地的開發我覺得台鐵土地很多嘛我們應該想辦法來檢討嘛"},{"start":304.904,"end":323.187,"text":"那我們不只土地他不是在做不是純粹我們在講土地的這個炒作啦開發不是這個而是土地怎麼樣運營跟管理那包括你的廠站也是一樣我剛剛也聽到那個數月委員在提他的惡靈車站很重要對不對他也是古蹟啊對不對"},{"start":324.5,"end":352.932,"text":"本席的日南火車站我也過去一直跟你們爭取從觀光局也要錢來修護這個古蹟日南車站的周邊然後我講了很多年臺鐵公司終於同意我爭取了大概接近我看五、六千萬有啦要把古蹟的本體開始要進行維護對不對那董事長這些古蹟本體這麼多的車站不久之後只要它沒被拆掉的它通通是古蹟"},{"start":353.905,"end":382.199,"text":"那臺鐵公司花錢去修理比如說我一個日南車站周邊不要算因為周邊是從我從觀光局要來的嘛觀光署要來的但是本體你就要花五、六千萬去整修了那整修完之後啊你等於說對你來講你是投入資產的的運委或者投入資產的這個這個這個活化嘛那怎麼獲利就投入了之後這些車站投入獲利除了對古蹟的保存"},{"start":383.291,"end":406.148,"text":"你是公司欸你不是交通部欸交通部連交通部連國貨會都要跟你算那個那個回收啊回報率啊那你的你作為公司你對於這些投入你更應該這樣計算嘛所以臺鐵公司應該同時在修復古蹟的同時你應該去試想我怎麼運為我的古蹟可以讓我臺鐵公司有現金流進啦要有再利用的計畫對"},{"start":407.509,"end":423.569,"text":"所以我一直很擔心我到今天為止我都沒有看嘛每一個人都在問他的古蹟什麼時候修復我也是一樣啊對不對日南車站留標4次了嘛今天要開第5次標嘛對已經開了留標了嗎沒有有一家有標了那我們下個月就會完成評選好OK"},{"start":425.387,"end":438.857,"text":"不要再流標了啦同仁都很辛苦每次同仁回復辦公室都說同仁很努力了我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦但是喔努力沒有效果叫做有心無力啦這是悲劇嘛"},{"start":440.168,"end":467.525,"text":"就有心有力要把問題解決啦所以不是講通人很努力我也知道通人很努力但沒方法事情沒辦法完成只有心有心我想要把它做好但沒有能力把它完成嘛所以有心無力有力無心都不行都解決不了問題啦所以回過頭來我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼去活化就是你的股機去整修花那麼多錢每一個站你都要去修每一個站都要去維護"},{"start":469.514,"end":490.837,"text":"他對臺鐵公司未來的營收的幫忙是什麼我隨便舉個例子比如說你們現在開始改那個叫海豐號啊把舉光號改成去把它裝扮了海豐號叫什麼還有個叫什麼藍啊山藍號對不對對啊那這些要跑哪裡我是不知道啦但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟"},{"start":492.199,"end":516.696,"text":"其實沒有一台很棒的車子比如說在假日開禮拜六禮拜天你們也去打造一台這個臺鐵的什麼號專門營跑古蹟的就你在禮拜六禮拜天就載我跑海線的古蹟嘛因為你禮拜六禮拜天你的主力的運輸一定是相對遊客少嘛因為上班上學的沒有嘛所以這時候你就有你有古蹟你就可以去做嘛"},{"start":517.557,"end":545.159,"text":"那你的古蹟的這個車子你想一個很響亮的名字取一個號把舉光號去改裝嘛你用舉光號去開大家覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦你把它重新改裝過後大家都覺得很好啦再來你的古蹟立法院不會審你的票價啊你的古蹟號要收多少錢我立法院不會說不行我在乎的是每天民眾要上下班上下雪那個票價你要漲價我就先問你績效改了沒"},{"start":545.97,"end":566.813,"text":"可是你否遊客否旅遊的你定很高那個就是市場機制嘛那個就是市場機制所以這個就是我一直在提的方法我沒有看到你的這些站我很贊成你去維護這些站我很支持我不是反對喔可是這個站跟這個公司的關係是什麼這個你要去想嘛"},{"start":567.847,"end":570.15,"text":"二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就"},{"start":582.987,"end":608.135,"text":"真的能從包括你自己從民間挖到挖角把臺鐵公司起始回生你要有突破點就你上任董事長之後你的突破點是什麼讓大家耳目一新覺得這個杜董事長從過去公務人員現在變公司的董事長哇那臺鐵真的是不一樣了你這時候要談你不管要調幾趴大家會問說我這人才這樣會不會調太久"},{"start":611.881,"end":624.841,"text":"同仁讓大家有目標去拼拼完了我們有成績我們就加薪讓大家有動力立法院也挺得大家都很開心大家覺得不一樣了臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司"},{"start":625.799,"end":655.374,"text":"所以老生餐廊都是在談這些東西啦但是董事長就是你一定要很清楚那個方向每一個部門的方向是什麼他有可能可以再發揮創意是什麼過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此沒有公司之前不在此他就是讓火車可以跑不要上班不要遲到上學不要遲到正常運轉臺鐵公司就做好啦他還有什麼事情便當賣不賣不重要啦對不對沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊"},{"start":656.442,"end":683.473,"text":"那便當可以光便當你現在不是思考便當你要思考我怎麼樣可以讓我的飲食部門營收飆一倍從7億變14億對不對剛剛有人有緣有題啊各種各式各樣的啊你臺鐵現在便當叫全國統一版你也可以第二個版本叫地方版每一個地方又有屬於地方的特色這個就是你的創意讓你的營收可以翻倍的基礎嘛"},{"start":684.639,"end":712.366,"text":"所以我建議這個是你參考一下啦因為畢竟你是董事長不是我是董事長所以這些問題一個公司就是公司啦我把你改字叫公司我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司公司就是公司而公司的方向是什麼公司角色是什麼跟過去公務同仁不大一樣所以我的意思是要這樣來思考臺鐵才會有未來好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時10分）特別謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵公司杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。兩位早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下臺鐵公司營業項目的收支概況，簡單講就是臺鐵公司的財務狀況。杜董事長，看起來，你們的預估是今年淨利虧74億元，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：明年還是虧？"],["杜董事長微：對，明年還是。"],["蔡委員其昌：杜董事長，在這個財務狀況裡面，你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡？"],["杜董事長微：如果以帳面價值來看、就是會計帳的話……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，會計帳。"],["杜董事長微：主要的原因是折舊很龐大。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，如果是折舊的話，邏輯上折舊攤提是一定要的啦！","那以這樣來看，最主要的折舊還是來自運輸本業？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是嘛！那在其他方面，包括土地資產的開發、包括像便當這種商品在內，其他部門的營業狀況怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有受到折舊的影響。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，我指的是虧損還是獲利？"],["杜董事長微：獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：土地開發也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：土地開發也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：所有商品也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：商品也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，只有本業虧損，其他都賺錢？"],["杜董事長微：大體上是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：那還有什麼部門是你覺得有機會賺錢的？"],["杜董事長微：有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦！但是主要可以不受折舊影響而賺錢的話，如果可以切開來看的話，是資產開發。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，應該沒有人不算折舊啦！否則公司大概就太好經營了，折舊一定要算嘛！其實我主要是要問，今年會虧74億元、明年預估虧87億元，那麼請問董事長，針對每一個部門的KPI，也就是每一個部門的營業目標，你有請同仁們提出嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：有喔！那這87億元虧損你都覺得合理？每一個部門提出之後，你都覺得合理，所以你估算出這個數字嘛！對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那本席要求你，包括每一個部門怎麼算，可不可以提供給本席？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以啦！"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","對於臺鐵公司來講，立法院就像公司的監察人，我們很想知道每一個部門怎麼看待明年的營業。你們現在是公司，既然是公司，邏輯上就不要再吃大鍋飯，所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛！有目標之後，我們以目標方式監督，我覺得這樣對臺鐵公司才合理啦！不然大家來到立法院，只挑一個點就開始罵、開始批評，明年又換新的，我認為這樣沒有辦法系統性地監督臺鐵啊！我覺得應該是你們有KPI讓我看，明年我就按照你們的KPI追蹤、要求這些目標達成嘛！我認為這樣對臺鐵監理才是正確嘛！","第二，有一些東西雖然賺錢，但董事長會不會覺得它賺太少？我舉個例子，剛剛林俊憲委員好像也有提到……"],["陳部長世凱：便當。"],["杜董事長微：便當。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵便當去年營業額是七億多元，對不對？那去年賺了多少錢？"],["杜董事長微：一億多元。"],["蔡委員其昌：七億元賺一億元啦！"],["杜董事長微：對，獲利差不多十幾個百分點。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。那比較起其他餐飲、就是類似餐飲來講，你們的營業利益率有贏過人家嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有？還是沒有嘛！所以我覺得，如果跟同業比，臺鐵的營業利益率相對低，那就應該有精進的空間，表示營業額7億元雖然不錯，但是一定是管銷費用或什麼費用比人家高，所以營業利益率才會比別人低嘛！這個邏輯你懂嘛！所以應該用這樣的方式讓臺鐵公司一個部門、一個部門檢討。像土地開發，我覺得臺鐵土地很多嘛！應該想辦法檢討啦！臺鐵也不只有土地，我們不純粹在講土地的炒作、開發，不是這個！而是土地怎麼運營跟管理。包括場站也一樣，我剛剛聽到陳素月委員提到她的二林車站很重要，對不對？它也是古蹟啊！"],["杜董事長微：是二水。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席針對日南火車站，過去也一直跟你們爭取，還從觀光局要錢修復古蹟、日南車站周邊。然後，我講了很多年，臺鐵公司終於同意，讓我爭取了大概五、六千萬元有啦！要開始對古蹟本體進行維護，對不對？董事長，這麼多屬於古蹟本體的車站，不久之後只要沒被拆掉，統統是古蹟，臺鐵公司若花錢修理，譬如說日南車站，周邊不要算，因為周邊相關經費是我從觀光署要來的嘛！但是對於本體，你們就要花五、六千萬元整修了，對你們來講，這是投入資產運維或投入資產活化，那整修完之後怎麼獲利？對這些車站投入之後，除了對古蹟的保存之外，你們是公司欸！不是交通部欸！連國發會對交通部都要算回收、回報率啊！那你們作為公司，對於這些投入更應該這樣計算嘛！所以臺鐵公司在修復古蹟的同時也應該試想怎麼運維古蹟，讓臺鐵公司有現金流進來。"],["杜董事長微：是，要有再利用的計畫。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。而我一直很擔心，因為到現在為止都沒有看到嘛！每一個人都在問他們的古蹟什麼時候修復，我也一樣啊！日南車站流標4次，今天要開第五次標嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對，已經開了。"],["蔡委員其昌：流標了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，有一家……"],["蔡委員其昌：標了？"],["杜董事長微：我們下個月就會完成評選。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，OK。不要再流標了啦！臺鐵同仁都很辛苦，每次臺鐵同仁回復本席辦公室，都說同仁很努力了。我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦！但是努力若沒有效果，就叫做有心無力啊！這是悲劇嘛！必須有心有力、要把問題解決啦！不能光講同仁很努力。我也知道同仁很努力，但是沒方法、事情沒辦法完成，就叫做只有心做好，但沒有能力把它完成嘛！所以有心無力、有力無心都不行，都解決不了問題啦！","回過頭來，我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼活化。臺鐵為古蹟整修花那麼多錢、每一個站都要修、每一個站都要維護，那麼它對臺鐵公司未來營收的幫忙是什麼？我隨便舉個例子，你們現在開始改裝海風號，就是把莒光號加以裝扮改為海風號，還有一個山嵐號，對不對？這些要跑哪裡我是不知道，但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟，其實都沒有一臺很棒的車子。譬如說在假日、禮拜六、禮拜天，你們也可以打造一列臺鐵的什麼號，專門跑古蹟，也就是禮拜六、禮拜天就專門載我跑海線古蹟嘛！在禮拜六、禮拜天，主力運輸的遊客一定相對少，因為上班、上學旅客沒有搭車嘛！而你們有古蹟，這時候就可以去做嘛！對於跑古蹟的車子，你們就想一個很響亮的名字、取一個號，把莒光號加以改裝嘛！如果用莒光號去開，大家會覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦！但重新改裝過後，大家都會覺得很好啦！再來，對於跑古蹟列車，立法院不會審你們的票價啊！古蹟號要收多少錢，立法院不會說不行，因為我們在乎的是每天民眾上下班、上下學的那個票價，若你們要漲價，我們就會先問績效改了沒。如果是專為遊客、為旅遊而開的票價訂很高，就是基於市場機制嘛！這就是我一直在提的，我雖然沒有去看到這些站，但我很贊成你去維護這些站，我很支持、我不是反對喔！可是，這些站跟這家公司的關係是什麼？這點你要去想啊！便當賣得好，有沒有可能再賣其他的、新商品的開發如何？你們現在是公司嘛！所以大家在談你的薪水啊！說實在話，對我來講，你們只要賺錢就好，包括你自己，或者真的要能從民間挖角，讓臺鐵公司起死回生。總之，你要有突破點，包括你上任董事長之後，突破點是什麼，要讓大家耳目一新，覺得杜董事長從過去的公務人員變成現在的公司董事長，哇！臺鐵真的是不一樣了。這時候不管你談要調幾個百分點，大家反而會問對這樣的人才會不會調太少？對不對？你要讓同仁有目標去拚，拚完了有成績就加薪，讓大家有動力。立法院也會挺得很開心，大家會覺得不一樣了，臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司。這是老生常談，都是在談這些東西啊！但是董事長一定要很清楚那個方向、每一個部門的方向是什麼、有可能可以再發揮創意的地方是什麼。過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此，沒有變成為公司之前的任務不在此，就是要讓火車可以跑，民眾上班不要遲到、上學不要遲到，只要正常運轉，臺鐵公司就做好啦！還有什麼事情？便當賣不賣不重要啦！對不對？沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊！光是針對便當，你現在不是要思考便當本身，而是思考怎麼樣可以讓飲食部門營收飆一倍、從7億元變14億元，對不對？剛剛也有委員提到啊！可以賣各式各樣的便當啊！臺鐵現在的便當叫作「全國統一版」，你們也可以推出第二個版本叫「地方版」，每一個地方版便當又有屬於地方的特色。這就是你的創意可以讓營收翻倍的基礎啊！所以我建議這個，你參考一下啦！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：畢竟你是董事長，我不是董事長，所以要處理這些問題，一個公司就是公司啦！對於改制為公司，我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司。而公司就是公司，公司的方向是什麼？公司的角色是什麼？跟過去的公務同仁不大一樣，所以我的意思是要這樣思考，臺鐵才會有未來，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}