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謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:25.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:26.467000+08:00","text":"特別謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:29.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:30.869000+08:00","text":"請交通部陳部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:31.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:34.610000+08:00","text":"請交通部陳部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:34.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.130000+08:00","text":"臺鐵公司杜董事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:36.130000+08:00","text":"請杜董事長。謝謝。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.171000+08:00","text":"兩位早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:36.171000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:36.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:37.171000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:10:35.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:10:58.625000+08:00","text":"我看了一下臺鐵公司營業項目的收支概況，簡單講就是臺鐵公司的財務狀況。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:00.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:04.487000+08:00","text":"杜董事長，看起來，你們的預估是今年淨利虧74億元，是嗎？是。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:05.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:05.348000+08:00","text":"明年還是虧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:05.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:05.648000+08:00","text":"對，明年還是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:05.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:08.729000+08:00","text":"杜董事長，在這個財務狀況裡面，你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:18.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:23.070000+08:00","text":"如果以帳面價值來看、就是會計帳的話……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:23.070000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:24.070000+08:00","text":"對，會計帳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:23.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:25.091000+08:00","text":"主要的原因是折舊很龐大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:26.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:32.034000+08:00","text":"好，如果是折舊的話，邏輯上折舊攤提是一定要的啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:33.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:37.856000+08:00","text":"那以這樣來看，最主要的折舊還是來自運輸本業？是。是嘛！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:43.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:11:52.884000+08:00","text":"那在其他方面，包括土地資產的開發、包括像便當這種商品在內，其他部門的營業狀況怎麼樣？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:11:54.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:00.097000+08:00","text":"其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有受到折舊的影響。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:00.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:02.719000+08:00","text":"不，我指的是虧損還是獲利？獲利。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:03.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:05.260000+08:00","text":"土地開發也獲利？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:05.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:06.341000+08:00","text":"土地開發也獲利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:08.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:09.502000+08:00","text":"所有商品也獲利？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:10.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:10.723000+08:00","text":"商品也獲利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:10.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:15.606000+08:00","text":"好，只有本業虧損，其他都賺錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:15.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:17.847000+08:00","text":"大體上是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:17.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:20.669000+08:00","text":"那還有什麼部門是你覺得有機會賺錢的？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:24.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:26.865000+08:00","text":"有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:27.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:35.510000+08:00","text":"但是主要可以不受折舊影響而賺錢的話，如果可以切開來看的話，是資產開發。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:35.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:37.151000+08:00","text":"不，應該沒有人不算折舊啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:37.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:12:40.572000+08:00","text":"否則公司大概就太好經營了，折舊一定要算嘛！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:12:49.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:11.250000+08:00","text":"其實我主要是要問，今年會虧74億元、明年預估虧87億元，那麼請問董事長，針對每一個部門的KPI，也就是每一個部門的營業目標，你有請同仁們提出嗎？有。有喔！","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:11.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:15.452000+08:00","text":"那這87億元虧損你都覺得合理？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:15.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:19.394000+08:00","text":"每一個部門提出之後，你都覺得合理，所以你估算出這個數字嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:19.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:20.895000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:20.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:27.999000+08:00","text":"好，那本席要求你，包括每一個部門怎麼算，可不可以提供給本席？可以。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:27.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:31.381000+08:00","text":"可以啦！可以。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:31.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:40.996000+08:00","text":"對於臺鐵公司來講，立法院就像公司的監察人，我們很想知道每一個部門怎麼看待明年的營業。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:41.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:47.364000+08:00","text":"你們現在是公司，既然是公司，邏輯上就不要再吃大鍋飯，所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:48.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:13:54.111000+08:00","text":"有目標之後，我們以目標方式監督，我覺得這樣對臺鐵公司才合理啦！","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:13:54.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:03.275000+08:00","text":"不然大家來到立法院，只挑一個點就開始罵、開始批評，明年又換新的，我認為這樣沒有辦法系統性地監督臺鐵啊！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:04.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:12.779000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該是你們有KPI讓我看，明年我就按照你們的KPI追蹤、要求這些目標達成嘛！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:13.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:13.400000+08:00","text":"我認為這樣對臺鐵監理才是正確嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:13.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:14.180000+08:00","text":"第二，有一些東西雖然賺錢，但董事長會不會覺得它賺太少？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:22.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:27.455000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，剛剛林俊憲委員好像也有提到……便當。便當。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:29.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:32.425000+08:00","text":"臺鐵便當去年營業額是七億多元，對不對？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:32.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:33.206000+08:00","text":"那去年賺了多少錢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:35.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:35.270000+08:00","text":"一億多元。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:36.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:37.351000+08:00","text":"七億元賺一億元啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:37.351000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:41.552000+08:00","text":"對，獲利差不多十幾個百分點。對。","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:41.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:50.896000+08:00","text":"那比較起其他餐飲、就是類似餐飲來講，你們的營業利益率有贏過人家嗎？沒有。沒有？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:51.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:14:52.096000+08:00","text":"還是沒有嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:14:52.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:12.819000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得，如果跟同業比，臺鐵的營業利益率相對低，那就應該有精進的空間，表示營業額7億元雖然不錯，但是一定是管銷費用或什麼費用比人家高，所以營業利益率才會比別人低嘛！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:14.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:14.679000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯你懂嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:15.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:21.042000+08:00","text":"所以應該用這樣的方式讓臺鐵公司一個部門、一個部門檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:21.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:23.983000+08:00","text":"像土地開發，我覺得臺鐵土地很多嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:24.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:24.663000+08:00","text":"應該想辦法檢討啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:27.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:33.452000+08:00","text":"臺鐵也不只有土地，我們不純粹在講土地的炒作、開發，不是這個！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:33.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:35.815000+08:00","text":"而是土地怎麼運營跟管理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:37.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:43.685000+08:00","text":"包括場站也一樣，我剛剛聽到陳素月委員提到她的二林車站很重要，對不對？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:43.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:44.426000+08:00","text":"它也是古蹟啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:44.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:46.500000+08:00","text":"是二水。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:46.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:15:55.664000+08:00","text":"本席針對日南火車站，過去也一直跟你們爭取，還從觀光局要錢修復古蹟、日南車站周邊。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:15:55.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:01.806000+08:00","text":"然後，我講了很多年，臺鐵公司終於同意，讓我爭取了大概五、六千萬元有啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:02.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:07.329000+08:00","text":"要開始對古蹟本體進行維護，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:08.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:24.389000+08:00","text":"董事長，這麼多屬於古蹟本體的車站，不久之後只要沒被拆掉，統統是古蹟，臺鐵公司若花錢修理，譬如說日南車站，周邊不要算，因為周邊相關經費是我從觀光署要來的嘛！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:24.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:38.996000+08:00","text":"但是對於本體，你們就要花五、六千萬元整修了，對你們來講，這是投入資產運維或投入資產活化，那整修完之後怎麼獲利？","quality":0.51},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:41.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:47.112000+08:00","text":"對這些車站投入之後，除了對古蹟的保存之外，你們是公司欸！","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:47.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:48.253000+08:00","text":"不是交通部欸！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:48.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:53.057000+08:00","text":"連國發會對交通部都要算回收、回報率啊！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:53.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:16:57.800000+08:00","text":"那你們作為公司，對於這些投入更應該這樣計算嘛！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:16:58.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:06.567000+08:00","text":"所以臺鐵公司在修復古蹟的同時也應該試想怎麼運維古蹟，讓臺鐵公司有現金流進來。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:07.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:08.148000+08:00","text":"是，要有再利用的計畫。對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:09.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:11.732000+08:00","text":"而我一直很擔心，因為到現在為止都沒有看到嘛！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:11.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:14.555000+08:00","text":"每一個人都在問他們的古蹟什麼時候修復，我也一樣啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:15.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:19.221000+08:00","text":"日南車站流標4次，今天要開第五次標嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:19.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:20.062000+08:00","text":"對，已經開了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:20.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:21.124000+08:00","text":"流標了嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:21.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:22.565000+08:00","text":"沒有，有一家……標了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜董事長微","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:23.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:25.289000+08:00","text":"我們下個月就會完成評選。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:25.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:25.549000+08:00","text":"好，OK。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:27.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:28.248000+08:00","text":"不要再流標了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:28.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:32.411000+08:00","text":"臺鐵同仁都很辛苦，每次臺鐵同仁回復本席辦公室，都說同仁很努力了。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:33.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:34.892000+08:00","text":"我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:35.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:39.336000+08:00","text":"但是努力若沒有效果，就叫做有心無力啊！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:40.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:40.837000+08:00","text":"這是悲劇嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:42.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:44.209000+08:00","text":"必須有心有力、要把問題解決啦！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:44.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:45.930000+08:00","text":"不能光講同仁很努力。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:46.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:53.555000+08:00","text":"我也知道同仁很努力，但是沒方法、事情沒辦法完成，就叫做只有心做好，但沒有能力把它完成嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:17:54.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:17:58.598000+08:00","text":"所以有心無力、有力無心都不行，都解決不了問題啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:00.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:03.241000+08:00","text":"回過頭來，我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼活化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:05.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:14.858000+08:00","text":"臺鐵為古蹟整修花那麼多錢、每一個站都要修、每一個站都要維護，那麼它對臺鐵公司未來營收的幫忙是什麼？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:14.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:26.070000+08:00","text":"我隨便舉個例子，你們現在開始改裝海風號，就是把莒光號加以裝扮改為海風號，還有一個山嵐號，對不對？","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:26.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:36.100000+08:00","text":"這些要跑哪裡我是不知道，但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟，其實都沒有一臺很棒的車子。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:37.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:45.006000+08:00","text":"譬如說在假日、禮拜六、禮拜天，你們也可以打造一列臺鐵的什麼號，專門跑古蹟，也就是禮拜六、禮拜天就專門載我跑海線古蹟嘛！","quality":0.558},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:45.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:55.313000+08:00","text":"在禮拜六、禮拜天，主力運輸的遊客一定相對少，因為上班、上學旅客沒有搭車嘛！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:18:56.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:18:58.676000+08:00","text":"而你們有古蹟，這時候就可以去做嘛！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:00.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:05.241000+08:00","text":"對於跑古蹟的車子，你們就想一個很響亮的名字、取一個號，把莒光號加以改裝嘛！","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:06.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:08.884000+08:00","text":"如果用莒光號去開，大家會覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:09.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:12.447000+08:00","text":"但重新改裝過後，大家都會覺得很好啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:12.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:15.630000+08:00","text":"再來，對於跑古蹟列車，立法院不會審你們的票價啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:17.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:27.139000+08:00","text":"古蹟號要收多少錢，立法院不會說不行，因為我們在乎的是每天民眾上下班、上下學的那個票價，若你們要漲價，我們就會先問績效改了沒。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:28.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:33.796000+08:00","text":"如果是專為遊客、為旅遊而開的票價訂很高，就是基於市場機制嘛！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:35.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:43.267000+08:00","text":"這就是我一直在提的，我雖然沒有去看到這些站，但我很贊成你去維護這些站，我很支持、我不是反對喔！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:43.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:48.092000+08:00","text":"可是，這些站跟這家公司的關係是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:48.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:48.492000+08:00","text":"這點你要去想啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:48.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:49.704667+08:00","text":"便當賣得好，有沒有可能再賣其他的、新商品的開發如何？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:49.704667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:50.917333+08:00","text":"你們現在是公司嘛！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:50.917333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:19:52.130000+08:00","text":"所以大家在談你的薪水啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:19:52.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:09.889000+08:00","text":"說實在話，對我來講，你們只要賺錢就好，包括你自己，或者真的要能從民間挖角，讓臺鐵公司起死回生。","quality":0.439},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:10.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:22.833000+08:00","text":"總之，你要有突破點，包括你上任董事長之後，突破點是什麼，要讓大家耳目一新，覺得杜董事長從過去的公務人員變成現在的公司董事長，哇！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:23.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:24.193000+08:00","text":"臺鐵真的是不一樣了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:26.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:29.875000+08:00","text":"這時候不管你談要調幾個百分點，大家反而會問對這樣的人才會不會調太少？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:29.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:33.881000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:33.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:40.651000+08:00","text":"你要讓同仁有目標去拚，拚完了有成績就加薪，讓大家有動力。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:41.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:46.821000+08:00","text":"立法院也會挺得很開心，大家會覺得不一樣了，臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:48.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:50.180000+08:00","text":"這是老生常談，都是在談這些東西啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:50.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:20:59.945000+08:00","text":"但是董事長一定要很清楚那個方向、每一個部門的方向是什麼、有可能可以再發揮創意的地方是什麼。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:20:59.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:10.971000+08:00","text":"過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此，沒有變成為公司之前的任務不在此，就是要讓火車可以跑，民眾上班不要遲到、上學不要遲到，只要正常運轉，臺鐵公司就做好啦！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:11.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:11.931000+08:00","text":"還有什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:12.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:14.392000+08:00","text":"便當賣不賣不重要啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:15.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:15.773000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:15.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:17.354000+08:00","text":"沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:19.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:30.787000+08:00","text":"光是針對便當，你現在不是要思考便當本身，而是思考怎麼樣可以讓飲食部門營收飆一倍、從7億元變14億元，對不對？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:30.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:31.787000+08:00","text":"剛剛也有委員提到啊！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:32.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:33.268000+08:00","text":"可以賣各式各樣的便當啊！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:34.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:41.311000+08:00","text":"臺鐵現在的便當叫作「全國統一版」，你們也可以推出第二個版本叫「地方版」，每一個地方版便當又有屬於地方的特色。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:42.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:45.453000+08:00","text":"這就是你的創意可以讓營收翻倍的基礎啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:46.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:49.200000+08:00","text":"所以我建議這個，你參考一下啦！是。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:50.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:21:56.481000+08:00","text":"畢竟你是董事長，我不是董事長，所以要處理這些問題，一個公司就是公司啦！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:21:57.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:00.282000+08:00","text":"對於改制為公司，我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:01.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:04.964000+08:00","text":"而公司就是公司，公司的方向是什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:04.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:06.544000+08:00","text":"公司的角色是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:06.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:14.366000+08:00","text":"跟過去的公務同仁不大一樣，所以我的意思是要這樣思考，臺鐵才會有未來，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:14.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:16.008857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:16.308857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:17.737429+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:18.037429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:19.751714+08:00","text":"現在休息10分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:20.051714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:21.194571+08:00","text":"休息（11時22分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:21.494571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:23.208857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時32分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:23.508857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:25.223143+08:00","text":"我們繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-23T11:22:25.523143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-23T11:22:28.951714+08:00","text":"接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時10分）特別謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵公司杜董事長。"],["主席：請杜董事長。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。兩位早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下臺鐵公司營業項目的收支概況，簡單講就是臺鐵公司的財務狀況。杜董事長，看起來，你們的預估是今年淨利虧74億元，是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：明年還是虧？"],["杜董事長微：對，明年還是。"],["蔡委員其昌：杜董事長，在這個財務狀況裡面，你認為虧損主要來自於哪裡？"],["杜董事長微：如果以帳面價值來看、就是會計帳的話……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，會計帳。"],["杜董事長微：主要的原因是折舊很龐大。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，如果是折舊的話，邏輯上折舊攤提是一定要的啦！","那以這樣來看，最主要的折舊還是來自運輸本業？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是嘛！那在其他方面，包括土地資產的開發、包括像便當這種商品在內，其他部門的營業狀況怎麼樣？"],["杜董事長微：其他部門的營業狀況就比較沒有受到折舊的影響。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，我指的是虧損還是獲利？"],["杜董事長微：獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：土地開發也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：土地開發也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：所有商品也獲利？"],["杜董事長微：商品也獲利。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，只有本業虧損，其他都賺錢？"],["杜董事長微：大體上是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：那還有什麼部門是你覺得有機會賺錢的？"],["杜董事長微：有機會可以賺錢的其實都有啦！但是主要可以不受折舊影響而賺錢的話，如果可以切開來看的話，是資產開發。"],["蔡委員其昌：不，應該沒有人不算折舊啦！否則公司大概就太好經營了，折舊一定要算嘛！其實我主要是要問，今年會虧74億元、明年預估虧87億元，那麼請問董事長，針對每一個部門的KPI，也就是每一個部門的營業目標，你有請同仁們提出嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：有喔！那這87億元虧損你都覺得合理？每一個部門提出之後，你都覺得合理，所以你估算出這個數字嘛！對不對？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那本席要求你，包括每一個部門怎麼算，可不可以提供給本席？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以啦！"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","對於臺鐵公司來講，立法院就像公司的監察人，我們很想知道每一個部門怎麼看待明年的營業。你們現在是公司，既然是公司，邏輯上就不要再吃大鍋飯，所以每一個部門都應該有目標嘛！有目標之後，我們以目標方式監督，我覺得這樣對臺鐵公司才合理啦！不然大家來到立法院，只挑一個點就開始罵、開始批評，明年又換新的，我認為這樣沒有辦法系統性地監督臺鐵啊！我覺得應該是你們有KPI讓我看，明年我就按照你們的KPI追蹤、要求這些目標達成嘛！我認為這樣對臺鐵監理才是正確嘛！","第二，有一些東西雖然賺錢，但董事長會不會覺得它賺太少？我舉個例子，剛剛林俊憲委員好像也有提到……"],["陳部長世凱：便當。"],["杜董事長微：便當。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺鐵便當去年營業額是七億多元，對不對？那去年賺了多少錢？"],["杜董事長微：一億多元。"],["蔡委員其昌：七億元賺一億元啦！"],["杜董事長微：對，獲利差不多十幾個百分點。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。那比較起其他餐飲、就是類似餐飲來講，你們的營業利益率有贏過人家嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有？還是沒有嘛！所以我覺得，如果跟同業比，臺鐵的營業利益率相對低，那就應該有精進的空間，表示營業額7億元雖然不錯，但是一定是管銷費用或什麼費用比人家高，所以營業利益率才會比別人低嘛！這個邏輯你懂嘛！所以應該用這樣的方式讓臺鐵公司一個部門、一個部門檢討。像土地開發，我覺得臺鐵土地很多嘛！應該想辦法檢討啦！臺鐵也不只有土地，我們不純粹在講土地的炒作、開發，不是這個！而是土地怎麼運營跟管理。包括場站也一樣，我剛剛聽到陳素月委員提到她的二林車站很重要，對不對？它也是古蹟啊！"],["杜董事長微：是二水。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席針對日南火車站，過去也一直跟你們爭取，還從觀光局要錢修復古蹟、日南車站周邊。然後，我講了很多年，臺鐵公司終於同意，讓我爭取了大概五、六千萬元有啦！要開始對古蹟本體進行維護，對不對？董事長，這麼多屬於古蹟本體的車站，不久之後只要沒被拆掉，統統是古蹟，臺鐵公司若花錢修理，譬如說日南車站，周邊不要算，因為周邊相關經費是我從觀光署要來的嘛！但是對於本體，你們就要花五、六千萬元整修了，對你們來講，這是投入資產運維或投入資產活化，那整修完之後怎麼獲利？對這些車站投入之後，除了對古蹟的保存之外，你們是公司欸！不是交通部欸！連國發會對交通部都要算回收、回報率啊！那你們作為公司，對於這些投入更應該這樣計算嘛！所以臺鐵公司在修復古蹟的同時也應該試想怎麼運維古蹟，讓臺鐵公司有現金流進來。"],["杜董事長微：是，要有再利用的計畫。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。而我一直很擔心，因為到現在為止都沒有看到嘛！每一個人都在問他們的古蹟什麼時候修復，我也一樣啊！日南車站流標4次，今天要開第五次標嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對，已經開了。"],["蔡委員其昌：流標了嗎？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，有一家……"],["蔡委員其昌：標了？"],["杜董事長微：我們下個月就會完成評選。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，OK。不要再流標了啦！臺鐵同仁都很辛苦，每次臺鐵同仁回復本席辦公室，都說同仁很努力了。我從來沒有否定你們的努力啦！但是努力若沒有效果，就叫做有心無力啊！這是悲劇嘛！必須有心有力、要把問題解決啦！不能光講同仁很努力。我也知道同仁很努力，但是沒方法、事情沒辦法完成，就叫做只有心做好，但沒有能力把它完成嘛！所以有心無力、有力無心都不行，都解決不了問題啦！","回過頭來，我希望看到的是臺鐵怎麼活化。臺鐵為古蹟整修花那麼多錢、每一個站都要修、每一個站都要維護，那麼它對臺鐵公司未來營收的幫忙是什麼？我隨便舉個例子，你們現在開始改裝海風號，就是把莒光號加以裝扮改為海風號，還有一個山嵐號，對不對？這些要跑哪裡我是不知道，但是我馬上想到的是我每次要去看這些古蹟，其實都沒有一臺很棒的車子。譬如說在假日、禮拜六、禮拜天，你們也可以打造一列臺鐵的什麼號，專門跑古蹟，也就是禮拜六、禮拜天就專門載我跑海線古蹟嘛！在禮拜六、禮拜天，主力運輸的遊客一定相對少，因為上班、上學旅客沒有搭車嘛！而你們有古蹟，這時候就可以去做嘛！對於跑古蹟的車子，你們就想一個很響亮的名字、取一個號，把莒光號加以改裝嘛！如果用莒光號去開，大家會覺得旅遊的樂趣沒有啦！但重新改裝過後，大家都會覺得很好啦！再來，對於跑古蹟列車，立法院不會審你們的票價啊！古蹟號要收多少錢，立法院不會說不行，因為我們在乎的是每天民眾上下班、上下學的那個票價，若你們要漲價，我們就會先問績效改了沒。如果是專為遊客、為旅遊而開的票價訂很高，就是基於市場機制嘛！這就是我一直在提的，我雖然沒有去看到這些站，但我很贊成你去維護這些站，我很支持、我不是反對喔！可是，這些站跟這家公司的關係是什麼？這點你要去想啊！便當賣得好，有沒有可能再賣其他的、新商品的開發如何？你們現在是公司嘛！所以大家在談你的薪水啊！說實在話，對我來講，你們只要賺錢就好，包括你自己，或者真的要能從民間挖角，讓臺鐵公司起死回生。總之，你要有突破點，包括你上任董事長之後，突破點是什麼，要讓大家耳目一新，覺得杜董事長從過去的公務人員變成現在的公司董事長，哇！臺鐵真的是不一樣了。這時候不管你談要調幾個百分點，大家反而會問對這樣的人才會不會調太少？對不對？你要讓同仁有目標去拚，拚完了有成績就加薪，讓大家有動力。立法院也會挺得很開心，大家會覺得不一樣了，臺鐵公司是一個全新的公司。這是老生常談，都是在談這些東西啊！但是董事長一定要很清楚那個方向、每一個部門的方向是什麼、有可能可以再發揮創意的地方是什麼。過去臺鐵公司的任務不在此，沒有變成為公司之前的任務不在此，就是要讓火車可以跑，民眾上班不要遲到、上學不要遲到，只要正常運轉，臺鐵公司就做好啦！還有什麼事情？便當賣不賣不重要啦！對不對？沒有規定臺鐵一定要賣便當啊！光是針對便當，你現在不是要思考便當本身，而是思考怎麼樣可以讓飲食部門營收飆一倍、從7億元變14億元，對不對？剛剛也有委員提到啊！可以賣各式各樣的便當啊！臺鐵現在的便當叫作「全國統一版」，你們也可以推出第二個版本叫「地方版」，每一個地方版便當又有屬於地方的特色。這就是你的創意可以讓營收翻倍的基礎啊！所以我建議這個，你參考一下啦！"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：畢竟你是董事長，我不是董事長，所以要處理這些問題，一個公司就是公司啦！對於改制為公司，我很支持讓臺鐵變成公司。而公司就是公司，公司的方向是什麼？公司的角色是什麼？跟過去的公務同仁不大一樣，所以我的意思是要這樣思考，臺鐵才會有未來，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}