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0個人所以現在有很多的士官所以這個部分就不算有可能算在觀光裡面"},{"start":416.032,"end":418.134,"text":"時間很有限這十班的飛機意味著只有一個月多一點所以我拜託是不是請民航局"},{"start":443.007,"end":457.988,"text":"負起主導的責任要協調中油怎麼樣把油管車送到那邊去然後加油的技術人員起碼要做一個培訓把這個任務完成五階段已經過關了五階段過關了"},{"start":460.185,"end":484.442,"text":"那對民航局而言沒有什麼問題剛才部長一直把這個風向導向觀光民航導向觀光觀光署能夠補助這個錢嗎?沒辦法這個錢一定要從民航作業基金裡面虧損的部分還有我昨天也告訴華信公司每一班飛機每個航線都要虧損你們都要爭取補助嗎?你們可以自給自足啊因為70個人"},{"start":487.182,"end":493.845,"text":"跟50個人意味著什麼?現在票價是3960塊包機的票價如果能夠承載70個人的話這個票價有機會降到3200塊而且華信可以打平"},{"start":505.151,"end":521.345,"text":"所以把它成為固定航班民航局不一定要從民航作業經理裡面支出非常大的一個數額所以我還是拜託何局長你回去趕快研究一下因為11月6號啟動以後只有一個月的時間這一個月的時間你要做一些"},{"start":525.273,"end":552.66,"text":"前置作業讓把它轉換成固定航班而且督促華信、華信航空華信航空目前飛馬組是賺錢的喔要不要請何主席回應一下要非常謝謝委員在這一條航線的推動上我想剛剛委員講的要我們協調我們一定盡全力來協調包含中油的加油問題或者是華信這邊公司的態度因為要申請定期航班要華信那這個部分我們盡力來協調"},{"start":553.88,"end":581.483,"text":"那主要還是加油因為剛剛我也有提到70個位置只賣50個位置的話其他損益良貧其實在整個運作上不是那麼有效率所以如果加油問題可以解決我覺得這條航線的局長現在不是互推責任的時候不能互推中油他現在講說油罐車跟那個保險是馬油你馬祖那邊是馬油當時我時任縣長的時候中油說我們在公司化了馬祖油品公司要獨立出去"},{"start":582.776,"end":603.718,"text":"我是忍痛把他認養,認養這個兒子你現在中油怎麼可以講說,那不是我家的兒子你在全台灣的各港口機場是你們中油的責任,然後你們就給油罐車"},{"start":605.336,"end":629.113,"text":"就給這個加油的保險那現在馬油不是,那我們把馬祖油品公司,我也不管啦我看你中央政府要不要派馬祖不要加油嗎?你中油沒有責任嗎?難道會請台塑過去,台塑會聽這個指令嗎?不可能你中油勢必要在馬祖成立中油公司你們如果要這樣做的話,那我就我就把油停掉把油停掉我來請問行政院"},{"start":629.793,"end":652.605,"text":"你中油公司在幹什麼?你中油公司要派人來然後我要申請個油罐車你說只借到12月底三個月沒關係你買新的給我啊你買個新的油罐車給我啊你不能說全台灣的這些加油公司都是你兒子馬阿祖的油品公司可能是外面領養的還是小三生的你不能這樣處理啊是不是"},{"start":653.405,"end":669.178,"text":"所以羅副董你回答我一下油的問題是委員好有關於航油車這個部分水長在這邊跟委員報告整個這個作業我們已經都ready好油櫃也準備好原本我們是9月份就要運到我們的這個"},{"start":670.956,"end":695.266,"text":"沒有原本的問題啊我這個事情已經寫到半年還不止了那現在就是說我們原本只是跟委員在討論這個包機部分嘛那回頭如果固定航班因為現在整個我們會再整體再來評估看看如果我們一定會往促成這方面來進行我請問如果是固定航班的話你油罐車要不要給我們還有你的油的保險要不要處理"},{"start":695.856,"end":721.897,"text":"如果能夠不影響我現在在高雄的機場這個部分一定全力支持油罐車的影響高雄機場什麼關係不是小港機場沒有加油的問題啊只是馬路有加油的問題啊我這個航遊車是從高雄機場的這個這邊借過去的啦那如果不要影響到他那邊一定來往這方面你們借油罐車給我啊我已經勉強接受了按照規矩你們買個新的油罐車給我"},{"start":723.14,"end":738.453,"text":"我已經很忍耐了,是不是?我已經很忍耐,不然你買個新的給我啊。你說馬祖油品公司不是你們的兒子的話,那我就請我們聯商線路把油品公司撤掉。請問中油有沒有派個公司到馬祖來?"},{"start":739.69,"end":764.742,"text":"然後馬祖這些輪船、飛機、車輛都不要加油嗎這是中華民國政府欸是中央政府要負責的剛才我也跟部長開宗明義的講啊行的便利、交通的便捷、整個的連結你台灣這邊有高鐵、有捷運、有什麼花了幾百億、幾千億、幾兆你馬祖這個小小一個事情是不是你連高雄"},{"start":766.274,"end":782.953,"text":"各位數非花蓮各位數你的造飛都固定航線你媽的為什麼給我停掉我等了20年了現在的觀光人口從以前的每年10萬人已經到40幾萬人了不一樣了所以中油道"},{"start":784.212,"end":798.548,"text":"明晚去開會你們不要再推山阻石喔你們再推來推去我就找中油好不好你不能說油罐車我借給你借到12月底沒關係啊你借到12月底你買個新的給我你買一台新的油罐車給我你說這技術人員"},{"start":799.862,"end":817.97,"text":"我們都忍耐到說我們願意派個人去裡面培訓因為加飛機的汽油跟加汽車的汽油是不一樣的狀況是不是這裡面有保險,保險要幾千萬你叫連央縣政府把房子賣掉來繳這個錢嗎?怎麼可能?好不好,羅副總你回去研究,一個禮拜之內給我答覆,可以嗎?"},{"start":821.038,"end":843.398,"text":"那何局長這邊我就拜託部長,部長也交代啦好不好你不能十半飛機停掉啊,我想早上我不曉得許智傑委員還有李昆仁委員有沒有諮詢到這一點他們很關心啊,這個才是實質的關心既然在我們立法院的交通委員會有那麼多藍綠的委員在關心這條航線我拜託部長"},{"start":844.69,"end":870.328,"text":"你年輕有為你有魄力,希望你這個第一項把它打響,把這個事情不要停掉你停掉的話,我們馬祖的群眾、馬祖的民眾也好,還有軍人軍人為什麼許智傑委員還有李昆哲委員那麼關心?他們是高雄的子弟,800個人住在高雄屏東他回家的路有一些現在是士官役了,轉任士官役,他們戶口都遷到馬祖去"},{"start":871.656,"end":879.669,"text":"如果把油料問題解決那邊可以加油就可以滿載70個人票價不要到3900多塊可以降到3200"},{"start":881.345,"end":904.531,"text":"而且你在票價審議委員會的時候,3200應該華信就可以吸收了所以也不需要你動用民航作業基金部長你覺得我這樣講法有道理嗎?我們朝這個方向來努力朝這個方向,我希望能夠說到做到好不好?部長我也拜託你,你非常年輕而且非常有魄力我希望你幫我完成這件事情,還有羅副總你回去"},{"start":905.391,"end":913.262,"text":"因為董事長今天列席在經濟委員會他沒辦法親自來所以羅副總我想你也是底下的技術官僚你幫我協助這問題有關這你舊的運過來借我們用沒關係"},{"start":918.41,"end":946.383,"text":"你不能說給我限到12底啊12月底的話那你買對不起你買一台新的給我不然的話我斷然措施請林鄉縣政府把郵品公司把它切斷切斷以後你們中油公司要派派中油公司到分公司到馬祖來要進駐馬祖然後所有的責任你們要去負責你願意這樣做嗎你划不來嘛對不對現在就這個一個加油的問題能夠幫我們解決就不是很好的事情嗎好不好"},{"start":948.192,"end":952.482,"text":"所以剛才部長說朝觀光儲備部分去處理"},{"start":953.632,"end":971.34,"text":"那不是正道那都是臨時性的請我們民航局我們現在的包機先這樣處理我想請民航局主動的很積極的去主導這件事情這才是正道好不好部長謝謝部長、謝謝羅副總、謝謝何局長我們謝謝組長、謝謝趙偉、謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時51分）謝謝召委，請交通部陳部長、民航局何局長、中油羅副總。"],["主席：請陳部長、何局長、羅副總。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：部長年輕有為，希望您展現魄力，多為交通做點事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我今天的質詢重點是馬祖到高雄航線，大概是配合南竿機場，馬祖的南竿機場是94年1月14日啟用，那時候馬祖高雄航線已經起飛了，後來到11月，只飛了11個月就停飛了，為什麼？因為人流不足、流量等等原因。"],["陳部長世凱：載客率不足。"],["陳委員雪生：對，到現在113年，停飛20年了，所以相較臺北飛高雄、屏東航線或是飛花蓮航線，雖然都是個位數，他們還是用固定航班在飛，當然現在高雄可能停止了。在10月14日在高雄，縣長、議長、本席，還有高雄市陳其邁市長，還有4位交通委員會的委員都蒞臨了這個記者會，這個記者會也非常成功。昨天10月22日我們又跟許智傑委員共同主持了一個協調會，為什麼呢？因為11月6日交通委員會到馬祖考察，就在當天，我選定那個時間就是高雄跟馬祖航線要復航，這是用包機的方式，只有十趟。這十趟包機是用觀光的名義，觀光署給了100萬元，連江縣政府動支第二預備金花了500萬元，也就是這600萬元飛了十趟，那以後怎麼辦呢？現在我們交通部委員會很多委員很關心這個問題，為什麼呢？一旦復航，然後飛了十班以後又把它停止，我們鄉親會罵死，我想這條路不只是交通的一個連結，也是行的便利，中央政府本來就有責任，是不是？你在各縣市做高鐵，成本多高啊！現在花這麼一點點小錢，而且我們的十班已經全部滿載了，所謂滿載是50個人，一班飛機因為省油的問題，所以……"],["陳部長世凱：那是因為載油的問題，所以有下降。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我想不只是中央政府的責任，更多是一條情感的橋梁，對許多南部在外地的鄉親來說，每一次回家的路都是充滿了思念跟期待的旅程，這條航線就讓這一份思念不再被距離所阻礙，特別對於那些在南部、在馬祖打拚的這些朋友，也有軍人，也有一些工程上協助我們的人，希望回家的路不要再漫長了，家庭的團聚就不再遙遠，讓回家的路能夠變得更近、更便捷、更順暢。","昨天協商會裡面有個問題，這十班飛完以後，民航局是不是在這十班的時間、一個月的時間做前置作業，包括後面是不是繼續要飛？昨天開完會以後，我跟我們縣長討論，我們縣政府的錢是動支第二預備金，各位曉得馬祖的財政狀況級距是第五，第五就是非常艱困、非常艱困，所以在這樣的情形之下可能沒有錢。昨天民航局跟中油也不敢給我一個確切的承諾，所以今天部長來了，我拜託部長，是不是督促民航局，我希望中央能夠負起對各縣市政府，尤其對偏遠離島交通的責任，一個行人的權利及便利，能夠負起完整的責任來。","目前的問題大概是滿載可以坐70人，所以再扯到加油問題了，馬祖沒有加油站，不是，有加油站，但是沒有加飛機的油，你要在那邊設加油站要有油罐車，還有一個油料的特別責任保險，我等一下再問中油，我現在請教部長，這十班飛完以後能不能把它轉換為固定航班？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您當時在爭取航班的包機非常用心，也非常努力，所以觀光署也特別以促進觀光的角度，我們也給100萬元來補助，民航局也相當努力趕快把航班促成，所以有十次的來回。現在的問題是在於臺北跟臺中飛往南竿沒有加油的問題，因為距離相對近。"],["陳委員雪生：三百多公里。"],["陳部長世凱：對，三百多公里，但是高雄相對遠一點，航程多了接近一倍的航程時間。"],["陳委員雪生：國內航程最長的……"],["陳部長世凱：對，國內航程最長的一條線，所以就會有加油的問題，那目前的困難點是加油部分需要中油來協助，如果我們的飛機飛到那邊有得加油的話，我覺得這個航線的價值性可能會再更高一些。我知道委員在爭取之前這十趟航班已經非常不容易，但是確實如果只飛十次的包機，就現在這個數據看起來，包機的乘載率還可以，有七成以上，但是大部分是觀光，所以我們大概也會朝觀光推廣的角度，希望繼續討論能不能再延長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我打斷一下，目前馬祖防衛司令部中，住在高雄的阿兵哥大概有800人左右，他們每個禮拜放假的有130人，所以現在有很多的士官……"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個部分就不可能算在觀光裡面，他們給我的數據可能觀光裡面包含了這些阿兵哥，因為沒有設籍在那邊就不算居民，確實委員您爭取的這個，我們來努力啦，中油如果可以把油的部分做改變，或者是讓我們更方便的話，我們請民航局這邊來做研議，就是朝延長的方向來做努力。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，時間很有限，這十班的飛機意味著只有一個月多一點的時間，所以我拜託民航局負起督導的責任，要協調中油，怎麼樣把油罐車送到那邊去，然後對加油的技術人員起碼要做一些培訓，把這個任務完成。五階段都已經過關了，對民航局而言會什麼問題？剛才部長一直把風向導向觀光，觀光署能夠補助這個錢嗎？沒辦法！這個錢一定要從民航作業基金裡面，就是虧損的部分。還有我昨天也告訴華信公司，每一班飛機、每一個航線都虧損的話，你們都要爭取補助嗎？你們可以自給自足啊，因為70個人跟50個人意味著什麼呢？現在包機的票價是3,960元，如果能夠搭載70個人，這個票價有機會降到3,200元，而且華信可以打平，所以把它成為固定航班，民航局不一定要從民航作業基金裡面支出這個非常大的數額，所以我還是拜託何局長，回去趕快研究一下，因為11月6日啟動後只有一個月的時間，你要做一些前置作業，把它轉換成固定航班，而且要督促華信航空，華信航空目前飛馬祖是賺錢的喔！"],["陳部長世凱：要不要請何局長說明？"],["陳委員雪生：是，請何局長說明。"],["何局長淑萍：非常謝謝委員，在這一條航線的推動上，剛剛委員講要我們協調，我們一定盡全力來協調，包含中油的加油問題，或者是華信公司這邊的態度，因為要申請定期航班要華信配合，那這個部分我們盡力來協調。主要還是加油，剛剛委員提到70個位置只賣50個位置的話，就損益兩平來看，其實在整個運作上不是那麼的有效率，所以如果加油問題可以解決，我覺得這條航線的……"],["陳委員雪生：局長，現在不是互推責任的時候，不能互推！"],["何局長淑萍：沒錯，沒錯！"],["陳委員雪生：現在中油講油罐車跟保險是馬油，馬祖那邊是馬油，當時我擔任縣長的時候，中油說他們現在公司化，馬祖油品公司要獨立出去，我是忍痛把它認養耶，認養這個兒子，現在中油怎麼可以講說那不是我家的兒子？何局長請回，沒關係。在全臺灣的各港口、機場是中油的責任，然後你們就給油罐車，就給加油的保險；現在馬油不是，那我們把馬祖油品公司也不管了，我看你中央政府要不要派，馬祖不要加油嗎？中油沒有責任嗎？難道會請台塑過去，台塑會聽這個指令嗎？不可能！中油勢必要在馬祖成立中油公司，你們如果要這樣做的話，我就把油停掉，把油停掉，我來請問行政院，你中油公司在幹什麼？你中油公司要派人來，然後我要申請一個油罐車，你說只借到12月底，3個月，沒關係，你買新的給我啊，你買個新的油罐車給我啊！你不能說全臺灣這些加油公司都是你兒子，馬祖的油品公司可能是外面領養的還是小三生的，不能這樣處理啊！是不是？羅副總回答我一下油的問題。"],["羅副總經理博童：是，委員好。有關於航油車這個部分，在這邊跟委員報告，整個作業我們已經都ready好，油櫃也準備好，原本我們是9月份就要運到……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有原本的問題啊，我這個事情已經協調半年還不止了。"],["羅副總經理博童：原本只是跟委員在討論包機的部分，回頭如果要固定航班，因為現在我們會再整體來評估看看，我們一定會往促成這方面來進行。"],["陳委員雪生：我請問如果是固定航班的話，油罐車要不要給我們？還有油的保險要不要處理？"],["羅副總經理博童：如果能夠不影響現在在高雄機場這個部分，一定全力支持油罐車的……"],["陳委員雪生：跟影響高雄機場有什麼關係？"],["羅副總經理博童：不是……"],["陳委員雪生：小港機場沒有加油的問題，是馬祖有加油的問題啊！"],["羅副總經理博童：我是說航油車是從高雄機場借過去的，如果不要影響到它，一定往這方面……"],["陳委員雪生：你們借油罐車給我，我已經勉強接受了，按照規矩是你們買個新的油罐車給我，我已經很忍耐了，是不是？我已經很忍耐，不然你買個新的給我啊！你說馬祖油品公司不是你們的兒子，那我就請我們連江縣政府把油品公司撤掉，請問中油要不要派個公司到馬祖來？然後馬祖這些輪船、飛機、車輛都不要加油嗎？這是中華民國政府耶！是中央政府要負責的，剛才我也跟部長開宗明義的講了，行的便利、交通的便捷還有整個的連結，臺灣這邊有高鐵、有捷運、有什麼，花了幾百億、幾千億、幾兆，馬祖這個小小一個事情，是不是？你連飛高雄個位數、飛花蓮個位數，你都照飛，且都是固定航線，馬祖為什麼給我停掉？我忍了20年了，現在的觀光人口從以前每年10萬人已經到四十幾萬人了，不一樣啊！所以中油到民航局開會，你們不要再推三阻四了，你們再推來推去，我就找中油，你不能說油罐車借給我，只借到12月底，沒關係啊！你借到12月底，那你買台新的油罐車給我！你說要技術人員，我們都忍耐到我們願意派個人去你們那邊培訓，因為加飛機的汽油跟加汽車的汽油是不一樣的狀況，而且這裡面有保險，保險要幾千萬，你叫連江縣政府把房子賣掉來繳這個錢嗎？怎麼可能？好不好？羅副總回去研究，一個禮拜之內給我答復，可以嗎？"],["羅副總經理博童：好，是。"],["陳委員雪生：那何局長這邊，我就拜託部長了，部長也交代了，好不好？你不能十班飛機之後停掉啊，我不曉得早上許智傑委員和李昆澤委員有沒有質詢到這一點。"],["陳部長世凱：他們有質詢到。"],["陳委員雪生：他們很關心，這個才是實質的關心，既然在我們立法院交通委員會有那麼多藍綠的委員關心這條航線，我拜託部長，您年輕有為，您有魄力，希望你把這個第一槍打響，把這個事情不要停掉，停掉的話，我們馬祖的群眾或是民眾也好，還有軍人，為什麼許智傑委員和李昆澤委員那麼關心？他們是高雄的子弟，800個人住在高雄、屏東，那是他們回家的路，有一些現在都轉任士官役了，他們戶口都遷到馬祖去，如果把油料問題解決，那邊可以加油，就可以滿載70個人，票價不要到三千九百多元，可以降到3,200元，而且你在票價審議委員會的時候，3,200元華信應該就可以吸收了，所以也不需要你動用民航作業基金，部長，你覺得我這樣講法有道理嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：朝這個方向，我希望你能夠說到做到，好不好？部長，我也拜託你，你非常年輕，而且非常有魄力，我希望你幫我完成這件事情。另外，因為董事長今天列席經濟委員會，他沒辦法親自來，羅副總是底下的技術官僚，你幫我協助這個問題，把舊的油罐車運過來借我們用沒關係，但你不能給我限到12月底，到12月底的話，對不起，你買一台新的給我，不然的話我斷然做出，請連江縣政府把油品公司切斷，切斷以後，你們要派中油分公司到馬祖來，要進駐馬祖，然後所有的責任你們要去負責，你願意這樣做嗎？你划不來嘛，對不對？現在就這個加油問題能夠幫我們解決，這不是很好的事情嗎？所以剛才部長說朝觀光署補助部分去處理，那不是正道，都是臨時性的，請我們民航局……"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在的包機先這樣處理。"],["陳委員雪生：對，但是只有十班啊，所以我請民航局主動的、很積極的去主導這件事情，這才是正道，部長，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，謝謝羅副總，謝謝何局長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝民航局跟中油公司，今天因為你們沒有列到專報的主題，但是因為委員額外關心，你們可以先行離席，謝謝。","繼續進行質詢，請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","林沛祥","何欣純","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","郭國文","王育敏","陳亭妃","陳菁徽","徐巧芯","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林月琴","林倩綺","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","劉建國","游顥","黃健豪"],"page_start":197,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微及文化部就「臺鐵如何精進\n服務品質、落實轉型治理、加速資產活化、強化文資保存及提升鐵道美學與功能」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部鐵道局局長就「我國軌道建設執行概況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男、數位發展部資通安全署署長及國防部就「國防部財產申報\n作業誤失之問題檢討、應處作為、風險管控及後續強化資安保護」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}