{"error":false,"id":["155981"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":155981,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155981","日期":"2024-10-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-35-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-23T12:02:09+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-23T12:11:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f30dcf391021d633dde2d12029b7f4bfbc85fd0f5e73d7766e8eac7fc2cd0ec1b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:02:09 - 12:11:06","會議時間":"2024-10-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.15721875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.37659375,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.10221875,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.606593750000002,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.79534375,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.71471875,"end":53.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.127843750000004,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.93346875,"end":58.502843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.312843750000006,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.77221875,"end":66.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.92346875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.11721875,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.22596875,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.85284375,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.78471875000001,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.65346875,"end":94.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.96971875000001,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.53909375,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.56409375000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.65221875,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.61784375,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.17034375,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.23346875,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.27971875,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.98409375000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.67159375000001,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.30846875,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.95346875000001,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.03721875000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.29034375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.96534375,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.03659375000001,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.98159375,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.09471875,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.27159375000002,"end":135.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.06034375000002,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.52846875,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.93284375000002,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.26596875,"end":143.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.43471875,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.44659375,"end":160.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.83284375000002,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.41909375,"end":164.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.10221875000002,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.27471875,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.83534375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.40409375000002,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.36971875,"end":182.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.87159375000002,"end":184.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.96409375000002,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.36846875,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.22846875000002,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.38846875000002,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.73784375000002,"end":204.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":209.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.00659375,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.60971875,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.44909375,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.25846875000002,"end":219.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.64221875,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.35471875000002,"end":225.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.96596875,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.14284375000003,"end":230.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.50534375,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.20471875,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.84971875000002,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.10659375,"end":248.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.71346875,"end":251.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.63721875000002,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.53096875,"end":258.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.32784375,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.88034375,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.65221875000003,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.18784375,"end":266.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":268.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.15346875,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.34284375000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.14409375,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.73034375000003,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.19846875,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.41346875,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.56909375000004,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.58971875000003,"end":287.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.52596875,"end":288.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.99846875000003,"end":298.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.93346875000003,"end":303.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.10159375,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.62409375000004,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.95284375,"end":318.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.93471875,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.84159375,"end":322.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.69784375,"end":326.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.96721875000003,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.89096875,"end":329.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.45596875,"end":332.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.73409375,"end":337.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.75034375,"end":339.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.97346875,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.01971875000004,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.93909375000004,"end":347.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.58846875,"end":348.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.02284375000005,"end":351.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.63846875,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.55784375,"end":358.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.41784375000003,"end":361.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.30284375,"end":367.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.07471875000005,"end":369.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.57221875000005,"end":380.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.96721875000003,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.94159375000004,"end":386.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.30784375,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.07971875000004,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.78409375,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.24784375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.96471875000003,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.77034375000005,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.87096875000003,"end":405.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.86909375000005,"end":417.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.46346875,"end":419.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.97784375000003,"end":421.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.49659375000005,"end":426.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.88409375000003,"end":429.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.29284375000003,"end":431.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.64284375000005,"end":435.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.62096875000003,"end":438.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.79346875000005,"end":440.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.56534375,"end":442.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.52721875000003,"end":443.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.19784375,"end":444.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.10909375000006,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.30284375,"end":449.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.80034375,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.16284375000004,"end":455.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.28034375000004,"end":458.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.38534375,"end":466.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.28346875000005,"end":464.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.93721875000006,"end":465.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.75971875000005,"end":471.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.48471875,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.07409375000003,"end":486.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.19221875000005,"end":481.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.23784375,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.25034375,"end":486.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.30096875000004,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.48659375000005,"end":486.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.52034375000005,"end":489.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.18221875,"end":496.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.72971875,"end":500.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.56034375,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.58909375,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.28409375,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.7140937500001,"end":517.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.9922187500001,"end":518.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.5828437499999,"end":526.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.4084687500001,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.32784375,"end":534.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.63096875,"end":537.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.66034375,"end":536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.61784375,"end":537.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.544,"end":21.331,"text":"今天主席安排了一個非常好、很重要的專報因為之前你特別提到說"},{"start":22.867,"end":51.646,"text":"中共現在在灰色地帶的襲擾還有經濟上的恫嚇一直在加大中共演習越來越大越來越不容易去掌握所以有可能由訓轉演、由演轉戰這個可能性嘛那包括我們的海軍的司令唐華接受經濟學人這個專訪的時候一共啊中國大陸那邊現在用的是蟒蛇戰略所以他們隨時可能會封鎖台灣所以今天這個會非常非常的重要我要請問部長的是"},{"start":52.762,"end":80.322,"text":"部長有感受到兩岸的戰爭一步一步在靠近嗎?」我會這樣問一個很重要除了你剛剛講的理論之外最近發生什麼事情就是教育部調查的學生扶擒意願書有些家長是擔心的你有感覺到有聞到那個兩岸的那個戰爭氣氛一步一步在靠近嗎我想跟委員報告國防部立場一向是備戰而不求戰但是我們還是要進行備戰是"},{"start":83.262,"end":111.305,"text":"當然戰爭是沒有贏家的大家看一下這個畫面這是烏克蘭戰爭基輔戰前跟日後的這個對比你看左邊那個圖左上角那個戰爭完之後變成左下角右上角那個圖戰爭之後變成下面這個烏克蘭戰爭兩年多本來很富庶平和的烏克蘭現在死亡人數最新統治"},{"start":113.071,"end":132.844,"text":"8萬人,烏克蘭死亡了20萬人聲名塗炭,戰爭都沒有贏家所以我要請問部長所以我們要譴責的是侵略者嘛侵略者,對對對,所以我們要做好我們沒有要侵略對,我們做好避戰也做好備戰的準備嘛所以柏廷我問你一個問題嘛如果我們也要備戰,那戰爭如果發生的時候,部長"},{"start":137.574,"end":147.551,"text":"你要怎麼樣去凝聚國人的向心力,如何去提升全民的士氣?」你怎麼回事?你當過國安會秘書長跟做保定,你對這個應該是很有研究對不對?"},{"start":148.479,"end":169.346,"text":"我想我們就是要加強這個全民對於這個敵情日劇嚴峻的這樣子的一個情況來凝聚國人的一個團結然後來強化全社會防衛的韌性我現在看到的是40萬名利嘛然後高章生要不要去服刑、義援書嘛我給你看一個很成功的個案好不好部長看到這個應該會有些感慨喔這個照片你給阿扁那個人生嘛你也認得陳志忠嘛"},{"start":177.455,"end":204.027,"text":"你看到這個當初青春正盛的陳志忠公他明年要去當兵他的爸爸是陳水扁你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺你這個問題一再的跟我問然後一再的叫我等一下問你啊你之前有問過你陳志忠這個照片嗎你看到這張照片你有什麼感覺尤其他說這句話很重要啊他說他每年要去做兵啊他爸爸是阿扁啊"},{"start":205.553,"end":225.067,"text":"這個文件很重要啊 這個扭轉了2000年的總統大選喔老蔣也很感人啊 你看他左邊講的這個那個部長我念不一定喔 他說天啊北部心嘛沒有一個總統願意將自己的住民推向戰爭每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉啊我現在要問你的事 你看到這張照片看到這張畫有什麼感覺"},{"start":231.53,"end":258.365,"text":"我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心這是我們國防部的立場就是這樣子那是不是請那個賴清德賴總統也要跟陳水扁陳總統請議一下陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵啊當初大家也鼓掌叫好啊這是不是第一個要做的欸現場我看今天很多將官在加起來一百顆星星喔很多將官為國盡心盡力很多小孩都是後來也都當了兵嘛對不對"},{"start":260.376,"end":287.321,"text":"要不要呼籲奈總統跟陳水扁總統學習?但是還要重要的,我們在台灣的高官們不是只有40萬名利的問題啊也不是只有調查高中生要不要去扶秦啊高官要做點榜樣吧,乾脆在台灣最能夠提振士氣的能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人嘛奈總統啊,這就是你啊,是你部長"},{"start":288.547,"end":297.572,"text":"我想任何一個人他按照這個相關憲法跟法律的規定他應該要盡他這個相關的義務包括服兵役等等應該都會做"},{"start":299.96,"end":325.977,"text":"阿扁阿驚陳志忠這個文宣阿為什麼那麼感動人一個是他以身作者他真的去當兵當然後來他去當兵發生了一些波折可是他說到天啊白無心小孩是心頭肉沒有一個父母現在就是這段時間有一些父母開始擔心嘛第二個下面這個話還很重要阿他說孩子都要去服兵役了所以阿扁阿說他最不希望也最不願意的"},{"start":327.011,"end":352.701,"text":"就是台灣發生戰爭了我們也不願意台灣發生戰爭我們都希望維持現狀對 維持現狀 這很好 對可是萬一發生的時候要該做什麼事情來 全世界有一個非常成功的典範來看看 以色列以色列啊 最近發生以哈戰爭啊他們的總理本來小孩是在美國的 在邁阿密緊急就回國去了"},{"start":354.619,"end":379.862,"text":"那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單大家知道嗎?那個名單叫什麼?以色列部長及以上高官的子女參戰的名單這個是以色列媒體做的喔他們包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務的部長五個孩子社會保險部的兒子、交通部的部長的長女他們是男女都接兵喔"},{"start":381.579,"end":404.759,"text":"連長女都去當兵了移民跟整合部的部長來 看一個倒數第三行顧部長以色列勞動部的部長有四個小孩還有他四個子女跟他的女婿全部都當兵了這個家庭至少8個人搞不好12個人去當兵了全民皆兵啊所以以色列才那麼強啊"},{"start":406.305,"end":434.867,"text":"部長我當然知道我們今天要追求和平要避戰對不對不希望小孩上戰場去阿那問題是現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近然後整個氣氛又那麼不好我們是不是該做一點事情那我們看下面這一張能不能我現在問的問題是當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上的小孩的參戰名單台灣的呢中華民國高官指你不要說參戰名單有沒有一個備戰的名單"},{"start":436.673,"end":458.245,"text":"是不是要先問幾個事情?第一部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎?第二個有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎?第三最卑微的這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚嘛總統說要40萬有韌性強韌的這個民兵是不是小孩至少去參加40萬民兵的訓練?"},{"start":459.675,"end":470.736,"text":"跟委員報告一直在講民兵他們不是民兵嘛他就民力不是民兵嘛您不要這樣子一直在那部長我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩包括你的小孩去參加民力OK嗎"},{"start":471.516,"end":488.581,"text":"我想每一個人都有他應該應盡的義務嘛那這個就是你上次也一直在問說是這樣我覺得這個問題應該就是說他任何他任何應該應盡的義務都是應該盡的嘛就是這樣子嘛好不好好那我們做個簡單的總結部長"},{"start":490.362,"end":517.023,"text":"這不是在刁難你應該是你以前金管會主委你也把你任內的工作做得很好嘛國防部部長也一樣啊那國防部長你現在碰到現實兩岸現在看起來是在緊張的是不是所以我才問你說你怎麼樣去把士氣是提振的要凝聚的我今天從國內一個以前的案例從陳志忠跟你講到國際上以色列的請參考一下好不好當然我們做兩件事情第一個我們追求和平盡量避戰對不對"},{"start":518.683,"end":534.035,"text":"我同意了對不對那第二個不得已我們當然自己要捍衛自己啊所以該買的武器是要買的我們自己要武裝自己那怎麼去提振士氣你要做好準備啊好不好思考一下陳時中這個案例思考一下以色列人家的參戰跟備戰名單好謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時2分）請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好，今天主席安排一個非常好、非常重要的專報，因為你之前特別提到說，中共現在在灰色地帶的襲擾，還有軍事上的恫嚇，一直在加大，中共演習越來越大，越來越不容易去掌握，所以有可能由訓轉演，由演轉戰，有這個可能性。包括我們海軍司令唐華接受經濟學人專訪的時候也說，中國大陸那邊現在用的是蟒蛇戰略，所以他們隨時可能會封鎖台灣，所以今天這個會非常非常地重要。我要請問部長的是，部長有感受到兩岸的戰爭，一步一步在靠近嗎？我會這樣問，有一個很重要的原因，除了你剛剛講的理論之外，最近發生一件事情，就是教育部調查了學生服勤意願書，有些家長是擔心的，你有感覺到，有聞到兩岸戰爭的氣氛一步一步在靠近嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想跟委員報告，國防部的立場一向是備戰而不求戰，但是我們還是要進行備戰。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。當然，戰爭是沒有贏家的，大家看一下這個畫面，這是烏俄戰爭中基輔在戰前跟戰後的對比，你看左邊那個圖，左上角的場景在戰爭之後變成左下角的場景，右上角的場景戰爭之後變成下面的場景。烏俄戰爭開戰至今兩年多，本來很富庶、平和的烏克蘭……現在死亡人數最新統計是8萬人，烏克蘭死亡了20萬人，生靈塗炭。戰爭都沒有贏家，所以我請問部長……"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們要譴責的是侵略者。"],["張委員啓楷：對，沒有錯，所以我們要做好……"],["顧部長立雄：我們沒有侵略。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對，我們做好避戰，也做好備戰的準備。所以部長我要問你下一個問題，如果我們也要備戰，那戰爭如果發生的時候，部長，你要怎麼樣去凝聚國人的向心力，如何去提升全民的士氣？你要怎麼做？你當過國安會秘書長，還當部長，你對這個應該是很有研究，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們就是要加強全民對於敵情日趨嚴峻的情況來凝聚國人的團結，然後來強化全社會防衛的韌性。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我現在看到的就是40萬民力，然後高中生被調查要不要填服勤意願書。我給你看一個很成功的個案，部長看到這個照片，應該會有些感慨，你跟阿扁應該很熟，也認得陳致中嘛！當初青春正盛的陳致中說他明年要去當兵，他的爸爸是陳水扁。你看到這張照片有什麼感覺？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，你這個問題，一再的跟我問，然後一再的叫我……"],["張委員啓楷：我是第一次問你啊，之前有問過你陳致中的這張照片嗎？你看到這張照片有什麼感覺？尤其他說的這句話很重要，他說他明年要去當兵，他爸爸是阿扁，這張文宣很重要，它扭轉了2000年的總統大選，老實講也很感人。你看他左邊講的，我唸給部長聽，他說：「天下父母心。沒有一個總統願意將自己的子民推向戰爭。」每個小孩都是父母的心頭肉！我現在問你的是，你看到這張照片，看到這段話有什麼感覺？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們要強化自我防衛能力跟決心，這是我們國防部的立場，就是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：是不是請賴清德總統也要跟陳水扁總統請益一下？陳總統是自己的小孩去當兵，當初大家也鼓掌叫好，這是第一個要做的。我看今天很多將官在現場，加起來一百顆星星，很多將官為國盡心盡力，很多小孩後來也都當了兵，對不對？要不要呼籲賴總統跟陳水扁總統學習。","第二個更重要的是，臺灣的高官們，我們現在不是只有40萬民力的問題，你們不是有調查高中生要不要去服勤，高官要做點榜樣吧，不用嗎？現在臺灣最能夠提振士氣，最能夠凝聚向心力的兩個人，一個是賴總統，一個是你，是不是？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我想任何一個人，他按照憲法跟法律相關的規定，應該要盡他這個相關的義務，包括服兵役等等，應該都會做。"],["張委員啓楷：阿扁和陳致中的這個文宣，為什麼會那麼感動人，一個是他以身作則，他真的去當兵，當然後來當兵發生了一些波折，可是他說到天下父母心，小孩是心頭肉。現在這段時間，確實有一些父母開始擔心。","第二個，下面這段很重要啊！阿扁說孩子要去服兵役，他最不希望也最不願意的，就是臺灣發生戰爭。"],["顧部長立雄：我們也不願意臺灣發生戰爭，我們都希望維持現狀。"],["張委員啓楷：維持現狀這很好，可是萬一發生的時候，該做什麼事情？全世界有一個非常成功的典範，大家看看最近發生以哈戰爭的以色列，他們總理的小孩本來是在美國的邁阿密，緊急之下就回國去了，那時候以色列媒體還做了一份很重要的名單，大家知道嗎？那個名單叫作以色列部長級以上高官子女參戰的名單，包括總理的兒子、總統的兒子、兩名無職務部長的五個孩子，社會保險部的兒子，交通部部長的長女，他們是男女皆兵，連長女都去當兵，還有移民跟整合部部長的孩子。請顧部長看一下倒數第三行，以色列勞工部部長有四個小孩，還有他四個女兒跟女婿全部都當兵了，這個家庭至少八個人，搞不好十二個人去當兵了，是全民皆兵啊，所以以色列才那麼強！部長，我當然知道，我們今天要追求和平，要避戰，不希望小孩上戰場；問題是，現在看起來戰爭離我們越來越近，然後整個氣氛又那麼不好，我們是不是該做一點事情？","我們再看下面這一張，我現在要問的問題是，當以色列的媒體列出一個部長級以上高官子女參戰的名單，我們臺灣呢？中華民國高官子女不要說參戰名單，有沒有備戰的名單？請問部長幾件事情，第一個，部長級以上的小孩有當兵嗎？第二個有準備跟以色列一樣準備要上戰線嗎？第三個最卑微的就是這段時間鬧得沸沸揚揚─總統說，要有四十萬有韌性、強韌的民兵，他們的小孩是不是至少去參加四十萬民兵的訓練？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，他們不是民兵，就民力嘛！不是民兵，你不要這樣子，一直在……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我呼籲至少部長級以上的小孩，包括你的小孩去參加民力，OK嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想每一個人都有他應盡的義務，你上次也一直在問，我覺得這個問題應該就是說，任何他應盡的義務都應該盡的，就是這樣子嘛！好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：我做個簡單的總結，部長，這不是在刁難你，你以前擔任金管會主委，也把你任內的工作做得很好，國安會秘書長也一樣啊。現在是國防部長，兩岸現在看起來是比較緊張的，所以我才問你要怎麼樣把士氣提振起來、凝聚起來。我今天從國內一個以前的案例，從陳致中跟你講到國際上以色列的情況，請參考一下。好不好？當然我們做兩件事情，第一個我們追求和平，儘量避戰，部長同意，對不對？第二個，不得已遇到了，當然自己要捍衛自己，該買的武器要買，我們自己要武裝自己，要怎麼樣去提振士氣，你要做好準備。思考一下陳致中這個案例，思考一下以色列人家的參戰跟備戰名單。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，部長請回。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}