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基隆民你說你相信你的檢察官你要去看他們的心聲在你的可以把柯文哲的名字蓋起來"},{"start":87.799,"end":87.819,"text":"呃 這個我認為 呃"},{"start":111.7,"end":128.189,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導那這個檢查論壇我相信當然是這次檢查有檢查有這樣的意見那個我們這個檢查論壇就是給大家一個發出意見的一個平台那我也不曉得是不是"},{"start":129.189,"end":130.13,"text":"臺北地檢檢察官"},{"start":158.131,"end":172.082,"text":"但是因為這個實在是因為新聞實在是太社會太矚目了媒體在無所不用其極那他消息怎麼來的啊消息是不是正確我說實在我不知道"},{"start":172.881,"end":192.491,"text":"伯定伯定伯定你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗喔啓制書到時候出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的我跟你講全民都盯著看啦啓制書裡面如果內容是這個媒體先出來那不是北檢從哪邊來內容如果說相互的我們不能夠直接就認定就是因為有通靈啊或作夢啊要不然不是北檢是誰"},{"start":194.718,"end":220.035,"text":"這次的資料實在是太多了所以為什麼那麼多接觸為什麼一口就咬定就是檢察官或班人來來來看另外一位檢察官的啦事實上你如果去你的檢察官論壇看現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多我覺得我們對你們是有希望的要去多看反省的力量你看這個檢察官他怎麼說你剛剛提說你們是有約談的對不對然後你還澄清了叫這個檢察官在這說"},{"start":222.33,"end":242.789,"text":"他說那一篇你們這個自親文叫什麼北檢治島的大爛劇你們檢察官自己都這樣講啦他直接講說你如果偵查不公開你現在已經沒辦法實現了嘛那乾脆廢掉然後請法務部跟學院開一個叫做如何要如何學會被媒體經營你看多諷刺你自己檢查官就這樣說啦"},{"start":245.816,"end":254.819,"text":"那是因為三立的記者直接講阿他說經營你們北檢你們檢調經營7年阿那你沒有更正這個我們有約談喔跟委員報告這個有約談喔這個我們了解這個齁這個這個某姓的記者的記者馬姓的記者這個不是跑司法記者的齁我們不曉得他這個怎麼從何而來我們不曉得你亂講對不對"},{"start":271.172,"end":277.999,"text":"他這部分在北檢有約談過了對,他亂講嗎?亂講你們沒有一個責任這個有澄清喔,這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個粗暴訊息你澄清了也沒關係,人家這樣給你獻醉不只一個檢察官耶,你的北檢被人家打這有澄清什麼?不是我說不對,你這個有這樣嗎?"},{"start":292.293,"end":315.621,"text":"這個有澄清是否透明之干?我意思就是說你自己的部署被北檢這樣弄成煎脆配,大家在動作笑話,你就是這樣一個,然後你的檢察官還講說你根本就是一個北檢的制導的大爛劇,你都不相信?我們司法院委員會MG掙扎不夠的作為辦法第8條第1項第7款的做適度的一個澄清嘛,因為既然社會有這樣的一個捕風捉影的一種"},{"start":316.681,"end":341.328,"text":"所以我們有份讓你來做一個處理嗎?我認為你還有機會去補這個破網你不補的話就是剛中線講的沒有錯整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉嘛我們也不希望看到這樣子喔我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水行國家的公器他是好的我們台灣才有未來嘛是不是這樣?所以我做兩個建議第一個你剛才講你約了媒體來"},{"start":345.39,"end":354.306,"text":"剛剛民進黨立委都問你嘛你約了記者去他到底要不要講你剛剛那個答覆是有問題的啊你把他約來他到底是證人還是被告"},{"start":356.338,"end":379.585,"text":"是證人還被告?你約這個記者來是證人還被告?證人阿證人?證人是不是有作證的義務?阿他來啦!他有到場啦!那他有跟你講他的消息來源嗎?他有如實跟你講嗎?還是你自己找就打起來?這個時候我想檢察官因為我他的偵查的一個手段跟心證我也沒辦法去過問說你到底講什麼我又不能去過問"},{"start":380.728,"end":388.412,"text":"你會不會變成那個基層檢察官,變成個歷史罪人,你形象不錯的,你的形象是不錯的,你要去挽救你的,你這樣會影響到,對不對,要幫你檢查,要做事情,來,我做個具體建議,我看沒你的預算書裡面,檢察司啊,變那個醫生啊,一個檢察司變了,要一千多萬對不對,"},{"start":410.22,"end":420.181,"text":"檢察司會副司長有時間嗎來來來變成一千塊錢嘛對不對你第一個項目就是教育訓練費啊我一定會叫司長好好討論一下"},{"start":422.745,"end":424.446,"text":"你做了什麼檢討?做了什麼改進?要讓社會知道啊"},{"start":441.261,"end":460.661,"text":"有看到成果嗎?你把那個做出來的東西一個禮拜給我好不好?然後第二個我很具體的要求,我講實在,現在只有兩條路嘛,你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查前途路,這比預算就砍掉嘛。你檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己,有負人民的請託啊。"},{"start":462.798,"end":487.061,"text":"這個費用就是要刪嘛這是一條路嘛第一個是把它做好嘛所以第一個你在一個禮拜內把你們做的怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情具體的你們的改善計畫或者已經有的給我好不好那第二個更重要喔要提出來提出來以後要怎麼去你們甚至要去辦幾堂這個公聽會或者座談會找專家學者來啊找你們一些形象好一點的啊跟這些北檢的檢察官講啊"},{"start":488.171,"end":489.511,"text":"主委好主委其實人民不是只有對檢察官"},{"start":515.747,"end":537.418,"text":"對NCC也有很高的期待NCC只要把那個公平做出來就好了嘛你看柯文哲這個事件甚至不要講柯文哲你往前推還有很多的司法案件媒體每天一個劇本後來很多都印證都錯的你現在手上很多檢舉案對不對媒體那個亂下那個檢舉案你會處理嗎都在處理當中所以沒有這個案子現在是有已經有結案的嗎"},{"start":543.188,"end":567.706,"text":"現在目前的話,因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件你現在將心比心,如果你是被影射、被作文章那個人,你會怎麼想?我沒有,我要求兩個,很簡單的第一個,速度加快,好不好?第一個,你的標準要是一致的你當初怎麼處罰中天的?中天有任何一個新聞有問題你就開始處罰嘛,罰則嘛對不對?後來就把台就關掉了嘛"},{"start":568.342,"end":570.044,"text":"市長我們都是依照換照辦法規定來處理啊"},{"start":580.635,"end":582.235,"text":"你現在你一個禮拜的送來現在到底有多少檢舉案你的進度是怎麼樣子"},{"start":610.401,"end":626.883,"text":"然後具體要求你速度要加快第二個更重要的人民現在都在我剛講過人民很簡單啊人民台灣人民的水準這麼高啊包括部長法務部有沒有好好做事情NCC有沒有做事情人民心中有一把尺啦你們本來形象都不錯的"},{"start":628.451,"end":628.571,"text":"法務部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時29分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。你剛才說你相信你的檢察官，你應該也常常上去看剛剛宗憲提到的「檢察官論壇」，大家看一下這個畫面，這個作者名稱是一審的檢察官。他說，他事實上是在對你喊話，也是對北檢這些同仁在喊話，他說你們對於現今檢媒一體的亂象，這裡講的不只偵查不公開而已，他用一個非常非常重的字眼，叫做檢察官跟媒體現在是一體，媒體跟檢方變成一體這個亂象，你們到現在都沒有積極作為，讓檢察官已經失去了人民的信任，把檢察官的名器踩在地上，這會使得你們會變成檢方的罪人。所以，部長，一方面你說你相信你的檢察官，那你應該去看他們的心聲。","第二個，可以把「柯文哲」的名字蓋起來，現在不是只有在幫柯文哲講話的問題，我們在幫臺灣的法治，幫所有的檢察官講話，檢察官領的是人民的納稅錢，對不對？是國家名器。本來臺灣司法是很受敬重的，可是你看這次這整個偵查不公開，這幾年搞成這樣子，你不會覺得難過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指導。至於「檢察官論壇」，我相信當然這是檢察官有這樣的意見，這個檢察官論壇就是給大家一個發抒意見的平臺嘛，那我也不曉得是不是臺北地檢的檢察官，這個我也不清楚，但我想整個偵查不公開原則，我想我們都會確認。像我在處理媒體，我從來不給獨家，我們都是直接落實發言人的政策，全部媒體……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你可以叫北檢跟你學啊！北檢，你看，從8月30日到現在每天一個版本。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不給這些，尤其檯面下去給，我們是完全禁止這一種的行為……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，現在人民……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是這新聞實在是太受社會矚目了，媒體就無所不用其極，那他的消息怎麼來的？消息是不是正確？說實在我不知道，這個我不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你講的話馬上就會受到檢驗，到時候起訴書出來的內容如果是這些媒體講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我沒有介入個案，我沒有介入個案。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，全民都盯著看啦！起訴書裡面的內容如果是這些媒體先出來，那不是北檢的話是從哪邊來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分內容如果是相符的，我們不能夠直接就認定這是偵查……"],["張委員啓楷：若是沒有，除非他有通靈或作夢……"],["鄭部長銘謙：洩出去的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：要不然不是北檢是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：接觸資料的人實在是太多了，所以那麼多人接觸，為什麼一口咬定就是檢察官或是辦案團隊外洩？這一點我是比較，比較不認同……"],["張委員啓楷：來啦！部長，來看另外一位檢察官。如果你去檢察官論壇看就知道，現在檢察官自己在反省的人真的很多，我覺得我們對你們是有希望的，要去多看反省的力量。你看這個檢察官他怎麼說？你剛剛提到你們是有約談，對不對？然後你們還澄清了，結果這個檢察官在這裡說，那一篇你們的自清文叫什麼？「北檢自導的大爛劇」！你們檢察官自己都這樣講，他直接說如果偵查不公開現在已經沒辦法實現了，那乾脆廢掉，然後請法務部跟學院開一個「要如何學會被媒體經營」的課程，你看多諷刺？你自己的檢察官都這樣講了，那是因為三立的記者直接講，他說經營你們北檢跟檢調7年了，那你有沒有更正？"],["鄭部長銘謙：三立這個我們有約談，跟委員報告，這個有約談，經過我們了解，這個馬姓的記者不是跑司法的記者，我們不曉得他這個是怎麼……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你說他亂講？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼從何而來我們不曉得。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，你是說他亂講，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他這部分北檢有約談過了。"],["張委員啓楷：對，他亂講，但亂講你們沒有追究責任。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有有有，這個有澄清，這個在9月16號的新聞稿有做一個初步的……"],["張委員啓楷：對，你澄清之後就沒有事情了嗎？人家這樣打你耳光，而且不只一個檢察官，你整個北檢被人家打……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有澄清什麼……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，我是說部長，你只有這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有澄清什麼唾面自乾，真的沒有，真的沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣澄清就好了喔？我意思就是說，你自己的部屬跟北檢被人家這樣打臉，把你們當作笑話，你就是這樣一個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們是執法……"],["張委員啓楷：然後你的檢察官還講，根本就是「北檢自導的大爛劇」，你都不會傷心？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是執法人員，我們依據「偵查不公開作業辦法」第八條第一項第七款做適度的澄清，因為既然社會有這樣一種捕風捉影的……所以我們有分案來做處理。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，說實在的，我認為你還有機會去補這個破網，你不補的話，就是剛剛宗憲講的沒有錯，整個檢察官的形象就一直往下掉。我們也不希望看到這樣，我們希望檢察官是領人民的薪水，行國家的公器，他是好的，我們臺灣才有未來，是不是這樣？所以我們是對你有期望。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指導。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我做兩個建議，第一個，你剛才講你約了媒體來，剛剛連民進黨立委都問你，你約了記者去，他到底要不要講？你剛剛那個答復是有問題的，你把他約來，他到底是證人還是被告？是證人還是被告？你約這個記者來是證人還是被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：證人。"],["張委員啓楷：證人，證人是不是有作證的義務？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他來啦，他有到場，他有問啊。"],["張委員啓楷：他來，那他有跟你講他的消息來源嗎？他有如實的跟你講嗎？還是你自己嘴巴就塞起來，他跟你說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官有他偵查的一個手段跟心證，我也沒辦法去過問說，你到底講什麼，我又不能去過問。"],["張委員啓楷：你的整個形象這樣被人家打臉，整個形象掉到這樣子，你都不去關心，你會不會變成那個基層檢察官講的，變成一個歷史罪人？你形象不錯的，部長，你的形象是不錯的，你要去挽救你的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣會影響到，對不對？你也要幫你們檢察官做事情。我做個具體建議，我看明年的預算書裡面，檢察司編的預算，一個檢察司編了一億一千多萬，對不對？檢察司的副司長是不是有來？編一億一千多萬，對不對？你第一個項目就是教育訓練費，部長跟司長好好討論一下，偵查不公開被人家嫌到這樣，然後漏洞那麼多，訓練一下嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，有，這個都有在訓練，新聞發言人這個部分，我們每年都有定期在受訓。"],["張委員啓楷：有在受訓？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有、有、有，這個因為我們從事……"],["張委員啓楷：你們做了什麼檢討，做了什麼改進，要讓社會知道啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們有在就發布新聞……"],["張委員啓楷：有在做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，有在做。"],["張委員啓楷：有看到成果嗎？你把做出來的東西，一個禮拜給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第二個，我很具體的要求，我說實在的，現在只有兩條路，你再這樣繼續偵查不公開變成偵查全都露，這筆預算就砍掉。檢察司這樣自己沒辦法保護自己，有負人民的請託，這個費用就是要刪，這是一條路；第二個是把它做好。所以第一個，你在一個禮拜內把你們做的，怎麼樣去改善偵查不公開這個事情，你們的具體改善計畫或者已經有的給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要，提出來以後要怎麼去……你們甚至要去辦幾堂公聽會或者座談會，找專家學者來，找你們一些形象好一點的跟這些北檢的檢察官講，不要再這樣搞了，把自己都搞垮了，好不好？部長，一個禮拜內給我資料，好不好？要不然的話，這筆預算一億一千多萬是一定要砍的啦。","抱歉，還有點時間，我問一個相關的議題，請NCC的……沒有，主委你不要上來，主秘上來。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主秘，其實人民不是只有對檢察官有期望，對NCC也有很高的期待，NCC只要做到公平就好了嘛。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你看柯文哲這個事件，甚至不要講柯文哲，你往前推還有很多的司法案件，媒體每天一個劇本，後來很多都印證是錯的，你現在手上很多檢舉案，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：媒體那種亂象，那些檢舉案你有處理嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：都在處理當中。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在沒有任何一個案子已經結案了嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在的話，因為都是在9月跟10月所發生的案件……"],["張委員啓楷：你的速度不會太慢嗎？你現在將心比心，如果你是被影射、被做文章那個人，你會怎麼想？我有兩個要求，很簡單，第一個，速度加快，好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你的標準要一致的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你當初怎麼處罰中天的？中天任何一個新聞有問題，你就開始處罰，罰責，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：後來就把新聞臺關掉了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在的標準有沒有一樣？你最近這兩、三個月的新聞……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：一樣，都一樣，因為我們是……"],["張委員啓楷：到現在沒有處理，你以前……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們都是依照換照辦法的規定來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：現在人民看起來就是非常不公平嘛，我是資深媒體人，我怎麼不知道？你現在……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：一樣啊，因為它是9月跟10月發生的案件……"],["張委員啓楷：所以NCC一個案子，兩、三個月處理不好嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們以前都是按照這樣的程序在做。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，以前處理中天很快，以前有人去檢舉，那個什麼曾文水庫有在倒什麼東西……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有啦！那都是一樣，都要經過……"],["張委員啓楷：你們馬上就處理完，弄到後來整個臺都關掉了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是啦，那都是一樣的程序。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，我要求兩個東西，請你一個禮拜內送來，包括現在到底有多少檢舉案？你的進度是怎麼樣子？然後我具體要求，速度要加快。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要的，我剛才講過，人民很簡單，臺灣人民的水準這麼高，包括部長，法務部有沒有好好做事情，NCC有沒有做事情，人民心中有一把尺啦。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們本來形象都不錯的，你們要把自己的形象弄得更好。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你一定要一致，最簡單的方式，以前中天怎麼處理，這一次有些造謠的或者是很明顯的，人家檢舉你查，確實也有狀況的，該罰的趕快罰。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。"],["張委員啓楷：這個對整個臺灣社會也好，你罰了他之後，他去改正嘛，是不是這樣？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們都會公平處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同努力，為臺灣的法治，為臺灣媒體有一個好的環境共同努力，好不好？多謝。多謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，請留步。因為今天部長跟在座的都是偵辦案件的人，等於是執行法律的，但我們不能說自己偵辦案件的人卻自己帶頭犯罪，因為違反偵查不公開是犯罪！所以部長，這部分可能就要請你們注意，不能夠講自己在維護正義，然後自己卻其實在傷害正義。我請教部長一個很簡單的問題，教唆他人犯罪是不是成立教唆犯，對吧？部長，這個你應該懂。好，那如果跟犯罪之人有犯意聯絡或行為分攤，是不是成立共同正犯？前面教唆犯會成立共犯關係，但是後面如果有犯意聯絡跟行為分攤，會成為共同正犯關係，我想這個應該沒有問題。所以，如果偵查不公開規範的是公務員，講這句話沒有錯，可是當非公務員跟公務員共犯一個案子的時候，這位非公務員也會成立犯罪。所以我跟部長提醒，我們國家的法律有這樣的規定，不要認為很多人在外面傳說，這個東西只處罰公務員，不處罰非公務員，所以我怎麼做都沒關係，但事實上不要忘記了，我國的刑法還有規定共同正犯跟共犯這兩種東西，所以你只要跟公務員共同正犯或共犯犯罪的話，本身也是成立犯罪。我想我這個話就是跟部長建議，我國還是有這樣的規定，今天我們的質詢可能讓部長不是很開心，但我想我們盡到我們的義務，我們必須把這個東西點出來。好，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請廖偉翔、廖偉翔、廖偉翔不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","請陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐不在。","請高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在。","請林思銘、林思銘、林思銘不在。","請林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬不在。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速將資料交給個別委員及本會。","委員林思銘、陳冠廷所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。另外，列席本次會議的全國律師聯合會律師李奇有提出書面，也一併列入公報紀錄。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}