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請衛福部部長"},{"start":17.799,"end":45.875,"text":"委員好昨天我在總質詢的時候跟你就教就是我們現在急診室等病房時間越來越長的問題那其實現在的醫療的問題其實不只是這樣那最近有一個抗藥性的病菌他現在是全球的十大健康威脅他也會造成住院天數增加而且醫療的費用增加那如果沒有效控制的話這個醫療界他們預估在2050年會可能會讓全台有3.3萬的人死亡會佔每年總死亡人數的兩成"},{"start":47.196,"end":67.615,"text":"那我都不知道你有掌握到這個狀況嗎?不是掌握,我瞭解到這種趨勢瞭解趨勢齁那接下來跟你討論一下我們要怎麼樣去防避這件事情我們都會想辦法來現在主要是有六大抗藥性的細菌現在有一些趨勢表格我們也從醫學期刊裡面有找到"},{"start":67.955,"end":72.577,"text":"在區域醫院已經高達19.9在醫學中心有3.4所以它的趨勢是一直往上而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":88.965,"end":113.251,"text":"那這個病菌現在已經造成醫院的一些負擔了比如說因為他如果要隔離的話必須要有負壓隔離病房但是負壓隔離病房根本不夠醫護也不夠所以有的時候被發現有感染的就是在原來病床加一個簾子實際上他並沒有辦法達到任何的隔絕的作用他就會造成院內感染那我特別把這個CRKP特別跟部長來討論你有聽過這個"},{"start":115.452,"end":116.832,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為．"},{"start":141.209,"end":161.862,"text":"沒有對不對我跟你講我有跟CDC調資料啦這是CDC給的資料CRKP在112年的時候呢感染人數是1961那死亡率我們如果是死亡人數如果是抓一半的話大概也將近1000個人死亡113年已經到目前為止感染人數已經830億人但是部長這個是精確的數字嗎欸部長"},{"start":166.513,"end":191.941,"text":"我們現在質詢欸我再看你這個資料你不要跟旁邊那個聊天我對你這個資料這CDC給的啊你會給我假資料嗎是那因為齁我跟委員報告齁因為我們因為這個問題所以我現在在看的資料就是衛福部也提其實也提出了國家級防疫不是我現在問你人數啦不要在那邊答非所問好不好人數人數如果是習慣屬題的應該是沒有錯"},{"start":195.345,"end":207.121,"text":"部長你根本我跟你講好不好就是不是這個數字為什麼你知道嗎不是這個數字因為現在在你們的疾管署建置的這個系統裡面他是採非 採自願式方式通報啊"},{"start":208.223,"end":236.007,"text":"他自願就通報啦不自願就不通報啦所以有一大堆黑數啦所以我剛剛給你看的數字根本沒辦法反應全貌是但我現在不懂的就是剛剛你也承認說這個致死率很高而且情況越來越嚴重可是我們卻對醫院如果發現這樣的器具我們不去管理他我們才自願性通報到底我們衛福部對於相關的處置你的態度跟立場到底是什麼啊我們當然一定要全那為什麼是自願式通報"},{"start":240.27,"end":266.925,"text":"你知道這個問題非常嚴重因為我有個朋友今年年初的時候在其中一家醫院北部的他說他發現在呼吸治療病房裡面很多人抬出去都是因為感染的類似的細菌欸所以我完全都不瞭解這個情形因為機關室應該因為機關室的專家都是當今對那我現在問部長您是部長您更是專家為什麼這次採取志願式的方式來通報為什麼"},{"start":270.746,"end":289.308,"text":"基本上這個應該都是要自動就會通報所以不能只有自驗應該是所以你覺得不可以是不是那這個機關署歸你管嗎應該要全部通報那機關署是不是歸你管我們馬上來了解一下這樣的部長怎麼感覺好像我沒跟你講這個你還不了解狀況你是衛福部長"},{"start":291.977,"end":308.243,"text":"因為我們尊重那個業館他已經這個你去了解一下好不好你可不可以去了解一下然後再來就是還有另外你們現在剛你要講就是這個計畫嘛全民健保抗維生物質際管理計畫嘛你要講這個嘛編了2.25億元嘛對不對每次支付不是這個計畫不是要管理及感染的品質提升"},{"start":319.417,"end":345.69,"text":"我們的簽名其實叫做國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性反抗生素這2億那個經過明年2億對嘛那一樣嘛一樣東西嘛對啊每一次一個病人每次支付1000點按照現在健保點子還要打折啦然後還要扣東扣西的最後實際上用在病人身上人沒多少了啦所以我們國家呢光是補助一個0日供給就補助1.13億元啦"},{"start":348.431,"end":348.511,"text":"主席"},{"start":363.279,"end":388.486,"text":"根據一些醫療的報導研究臺灣至少需要1113位感染科醫師可是現在臺灣整個職業登記只有771位而且今年只有20位報考而且報考的醫生人數是逐年下降所以你現在感染科醫師也有造成很大的缺口最後王必勝曾在之前還就任的時候他說感染科要列為不定專科但目前列為不定專科了嗎?部長"},{"start":391.363,"end":407.981,"text":"部長,目前列為不定專科嗎?肝癌科?肝癌科現在還沒...還沒嗎?我在跟部長講話為什麼都一直有人來聊天啊?那你這樣就拖延我執行時間啊,我剛剛一直被暗靈欸"},{"start":410.261,"end":427.61,"text":"感染科不是不定的專科不定的就是像內科、外科所以不是嘛那問題是之前王必勝講的嘛刺專科所以現在是吃專科嘛對嘛所以你承諾說之前衛福部承諾要變不定專科表示重視感染科現在仍然是刺專科所以我現在是把問題跟你講這細菌很嚴重"},{"start":429.571,"end":429.591,"text":"謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1658,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時41分）主席，麻煩請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。昨天我在總質詢的時候有向你就教，現在急診室等病房時間越來越長的問題嘛，其實現在的醫療問題不只是這樣，最近有一個抗藥性的病菌，現在是全球的十大健康威脅，也會造成住院天數增加啦，而且醫療費用也會增加，如果沒有有效控制的話，醫療界預估在2050年可能會讓全臺有3.3萬人死亡，占每年總死亡人數的二成。部長，你有沒有掌握到這個狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：不是掌握，我瞭解到這種趨勢……"],["葉委員元之：瞭解趨勢？好，接下來我跟你討論一下我們要怎麼樣去防避這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們都會想辦法來……"],["葉委員元之：現在主要是有六大抗藥性的細菌啦，現在有一些趨勢的表格，我們也從相關的醫學期刊裡面有找到，像這個是一些不同抗藥性的病菌、細菌，譬如你可以看CRKP，以CRKP在醫院跟醫學中心在抗藥性菌的占比來看，在區域醫院已經高達19.9%，在醫學中心有3.4%，所以它的趨勢是一直往上，而且是越來越嚴重。這個病菌現在已經造成醫院的一些負擔，比如說如果要隔離的話必須要有負壓隔離病房，但是負壓隔離病房根本不夠，醫護也不夠，所以有的時候發現被感染了，就是在原來病床加一個簾子，實際上這並沒有辦法達到任何的隔絕作用，這樣就會造成院內感染。我特別拿CRKP來跟部長討論，您有聽過這個細菌嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有聽過。"],["葉委員元之：它的學名是碳青黴烯類耐藥肺炎克雷伯菌，你知道它的致死率多少嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個很高喔。"],["葉委員元之：非常高啊。"],["邱部長泰源：嗯，非常高。"],["葉委員元之：醫學雜誌的評估是40%到60%，大家是抓50%，50%的致死率算高還低？很高吧？"],["邱部長泰源：算高、算高。"],["葉委員元之：很高，現在衛福部有沒有掌握這個細菌的感染人數？有嗎？沒有，對不對？我跟你講，我有跟CDC調資料，這是CDC給的資料，CRKP在112年的感染人數是1,961人，以死亡率50%來說，人數抓一半的話大概也將近1,000人死亡；113年到目前為止的感染人數已經831人。部長，這個是精確的數字嗎？部長，我們現在在質詢耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我在看你這個資料。"],["葉委員元之：你不要跟旁邊的人聊天喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我在對你的這個資料。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這是CDC給的啊，你會給我假資料嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，針對這個問題，我現在看的資料是衛福部其實也提出了國家級防疫計畫……"],["葉委員元之：不是，我現在問你人數啦，不要在這邊答非所問，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：人數，人數如果是疾管署提的，應該是沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我跟你講，就不是這個數字，為什麼你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是這個數字？"],["葉委員元之：因為現在在你們疾管署建置的系統裡面，它是採志願性方式通報，志願的話就通報，不志願就不通報，所以有一大堆黑數啦，所以我剛剛給你看的數字根本沒辦法反映全貌。但我現在不懂的就是，剛剛你也承認這個致死率很高，而且情況越來越嚴重，可是我們對醫院如果發現這樣的細菌卻不去管理，我們採志願性通報，衛福部對於相關的處置，你的態度跟立場到底是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然一定要全力……"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼是志願性通報？你知道這個問題非常嚴重耶！我有個朋友，今年年初的時候在其中一家醫院，北部的，他說他發現在呼吸治療病房裡面，很多人被抬出去都是因為感染了類似的細菌耶，所以衛福部完全都不瞭解這個情形！"],["邱部長泰源：因為疾管署的專家都是當今的感染專家……"],["葉委員元之：對，那我現在問部長，您是部長，您更是專家，為什麼這是採取志願性方式來通報？為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：基本上這個應該都是自動就會通報，所以不能只有志願啦，應該是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不可以，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：應該要全部通報……"],["葉委員元之：疾管署不歸你管嗎？疾管署是不是歸你管？"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來瞭解一下這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，怎麼感覺好像我沒跟你講這個，你還不瞭解狀況，你是衛福部長耶！"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們尊重業管，它已經……"],["葉委員元之：這個你去瞭解一下，好不好？你可不可以去瞭解一下？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，我們已經在……"],["葉委員元之：再來，剛剛你要講的就是這個計畫嘛，全民健保抗微生物製劑管理計畫，你要講這個嘛，編了2.25億元，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是管理行動計畫。"],["葉委員元之：不是這個計畫喔？"],["邱部長泰源：我們計畫的全名其實叫做國家級防疫一體抗生素抗藥性管理行動計畫……"],["葉委員元之：多少錢？總共編了多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：2億……"],["葉委員元之：總共編了多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：那個經過……"],["葉委員元之：2.25億，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：明年2億。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，一樣嘛，一樣的東西嘛！對啊，一個病人每次支付一千點，按照現在健保點值還要打折，然後還要扣東扣西的，最後實際上用在病人身上可能沒多少了啦！我們國家光是一個「零日攻擊」就補助1.13億元，大概就是這整個計畫的二分之一，所以你投入的經費非常少嘛，投入的經費非常少代表你對這個根本不重視！","我很快再講另外一個問題，感染科醫師現在也不夠啊，根據一些醫療報導研究，臺灣至少需要1,113位感染科醫師，可是現在臺灣整個執業登記只有771位，而且今年只有20位報考，報考的醫生人數是逐年下降，所以現在感染科醫師也有很大的缺口啊！","最後，王必勝在之前還在任的時候曾說過感染科要列為部定專科，請問目前列為部定專科了嗎？部長，感染科目前列為部定專科了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：感染科現在還沒……"],["葉委員元之：還沒嘛！為什麼每次我在跟部長講話都一直有人來聊天啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，是提供資訊。"],["葉委員元之：你這樣就拖延我質詢時間啊，我剛剛一直被按鈴耶！"],["邱部長泰源：感染科不是部定的專科，部定的就是像內科、外科……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，所以不是嘛，問題這是之前王必勝講的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：感染科是次專科。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在是次專科嘛，對嘛，之前衛福部承諾要變部定專科是表示重視感染科，現在仍然是次專科，所以我現在是把問題跟你講，這細菌很嚴重，然後你們也沒有要求他們一定要通報，感染科醫師也不足，編列的預算也不夠，那你有沒有決心要解決這個問題？如果不解決的話，急診室等病房越等越久，醫療的費用會越來越增加，現在感覺部長是不瞭解啦，所以幕僚才會一直上來耳提面命嘛，是不是可以給我一份報告，詳細的，補給我，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員，謝謝部長及副署長。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員，陳亭妃委員不在。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}