{"error":false,"id":["156038"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156038,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156038","日期":"2024-10-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-35-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-24T09:17:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-24T09:29:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b75ee7af2c69610bbacf2ea2eceb6ef2614dc9c52315f49e5b90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:17:41 - 09:29:58","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":1.27971875,"end":10.18971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.91221875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":10.915343750000002,"end":11.67471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.344718750000002,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":19.15034375,"end":38.37096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":38.50596875,"end":45.37409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":45.47534375,"end":60.055343750000006,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":60.46034375000001,"end":66.16409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":66.65346875,"end":221.75159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":222.39284375000003,"end":224.56971875000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":224.72159375,"end":237.68159375000002,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":225.61596875,"end":225.88596875000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":228.06284375,"end":228.36659375000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":231.38721875000002,"end":232.16346875000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":234.42471875,"end":235.99409375000002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":236.31471875000003,"end":243.87471875000003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.85784375000003,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":244.70159375000003,"end":245.00534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":246.52409375000002,"end":247.06409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":260.29409375,"end":260.88471875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":291.29346875000005,"end":335.05034375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.06534375,"end":293.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.11159375,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.41409375,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":335.23596875000004,"end":386.46846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.46409375,"end":361.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":386.46846875,"end":386.83971875000003,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":387.07596875,"end":389.42159375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":389.10096875000005,"end":393.26909375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":392.66159375,"end":394.60221875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":393.70784375000005,"end":396.01971875000004,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":396.12096875000003,"end":400.30596875000003,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":397.04909375,"end":421.50096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.34221875000003,"end":411.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":421.50096875,"end":425.04471875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":422.15909375,"end":422.47971875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":424.96034375000005,"end":427.06971875000005,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":425.06159375000004,"end":427.55909375000005,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":427.32284375,"end":430.20846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":428.84159375,"end":429.17909375000005,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":429.78659375,"end":434.32596875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":431.49096875000004,"end":431.76096875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":434.47784375000003,"end":446.08784375000005,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":443.86034375,"end":452.70284375000006,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":448.16346875000005,"end":449.96909375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":453.07409375000003,"end":466.54034375000003,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.73221875,"end":454.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.15721875,"end":461.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.64159375,"end":497.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":471.53534375000004,"end":473.89784375000005,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.43409375000005,"end":531.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":531.69471875,"end":586.55534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.8628437500001,"end":590.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.17471875,"end":596.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.06846875,"end":597.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.75596875,"end":604.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":604.93221875,"end":632.64096875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":613.79159375,"end":614.12909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":632.26971875,"end":638.83409375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":633.9740937500001,"end":634.34534375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":638.4965937500001,"end":640.52159375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":639.4584687500001,"end":664.9565937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":640.82534375,"end":641.9053437499999,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":665.31096875,"end":666.3740937500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":666.72846875,"end":678.08534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":678.1865937500002,"end":683.0634687500001,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":682.2197187500001,"end":684.39659375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":684.0422187500001,"end":690.20159375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":685.93221875,"end":686.7422187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":690.45471875,"end":695.09534375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":691.0959687500001,"end":691.56846875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":695.63534375,"end":696.2765937500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":695.80409375,"end":696.81659375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":697.0190937500001,"end":701.6597187500001,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":697.7109687500001,"end":698.1497187500001,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":701.03534375,"end":707.75159375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":703.4990937500002,"end":703.71846875,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":708.05534375,"end":711.5147187500002,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":711.2278437500001,"end":711.27846875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":711.29534375,"end":712.98284375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員美玲","start":712.8815937500001,"end":735.62909375,"speaker_score":0.974},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":713.79284375,"end":714.09659375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"顧部長立雄","start":720.28971875,"end":720.40784375,"speaker_score":0.873}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.634,"end":11.179,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長還有經備局林文祥中將那還有中科院李士強中將請顧部長羅委員好"},{"start":19.401,"end":30.35,"text":"部長好部長從這個無二戰爭的國土防衛作戰當中我們看到無人機呢確實扮演了非常重要的這個角色可以充分發揮不對稱作戰的這個優勢那我國也是借鑒於此所以這幾年來一直積極的這個籌建無人機的這個戰力"},{"start":38.576,"end":64.812,"text":"那除了我們像國外這個軍購的這個MQ-9B無人機之外其實我們也透過中科院委製或是國內商購的方式來做籌貨那剛剛我有聽到我們軍備局我們林中正有提到那目前無人機的主的機種主要是區分為艱增跟這個攻擊兩大類那是不是這兩大類就已經"},{"start":67.373,"end":95.326,"text":"這兩個機型是不是完全就合乎我們作戰時候的這個需求其實本期先前有參閱了這個國防情勢特刊它裡面有刊登了一篇是有關於我國無人機軍事運作的這個現行跟未來的發展的一個分析報告那裡面有提到就是說目前我國的無人機如果對應到108年國防報告書所提出的整體防衛"},{"start":97.307,"end":115.524,"text":"我國的這個無人機是不是能夠合乎這個戰時所需我在想這兩份應該是大家我想國防部應該是都非常的熟悉那也因為這份分析報告所以本席跟辦公室重新整理了目前我國服役中或是研發中無人機在整體防衛構想當中的對應的這個角色"},{"start":118.666,"end":143.865,"text":"現在我們提到的整體防衛的構想其實它是分為三個階段第一個階段就是戰力防護階段第二階段就是濱海決勝第三就是這個探案間敵那我們先來看就是第一階段的部分我們看看是說我們目前所擁有的這個無人機是不是就合乎那個階段我們所需要的這個機種"},{"start":146.047,"end":151.81,"text":"OK 我們先來看的是戰力防護的這個階段其實戰力防護階段是貫穿整個作戰的這個全程那我們需要經過我們要需要透過各種手段來保持這個戰力並進行這個損害的控制也就是說讓這個損害到最小那所以我們這時候需要的這個機型應該就是微小型、戰術型跟輻射型的無人機那確實我們就要像"},{"start":174.42,"end":175.121,"text":"中國、美國和俄羅斯都有投入研製"},{"start":197.637,"end":199.198,"text":"請問未來是否會投入資源進行無人機的研製?"},{"start":222.929,"end":245.648,"text":"運輸型無人機的研製請問跟委員報告就是中科院所有的研發需求都是依照軍種提出的作戰需求來發展的確目前軍種並沒有提出有關他並沒有提出來那變成說中科院這邊的話就沒有就沒有來做研發那請問部長這部分的話我們為什麼沒有提出呢我最近也看到相關的報告確實這一個"},{"start":249.612,"end":264.842,"text":"這個運輸型的無人機,美軍正在研發,事實上也因為涉及到無人機的載重的能量,它的航程還有存貨率等等的,那這些"},{"start":265.422,"end":281.767,"text":"那所以我想我們根據美軍現在的這個相關我們看到的這些報告我們會來這個積極的研討在無人運輸型的無人機在這個整個這個作戰的這個防衛作戰上面的一個需求來進行"},{"start":283.547,"end":302.335,"text":"那這個部分我認為這個如果我們有一定的作戰需求的話我們自主研發的能力應該是還可以我們其實也是有這個能力來自主研發的嘛因為之前我有看到那個交通部其實他們也希望就是利用這個運輸型的這個無人機他可能是屬於比較小型的"},{"start":302.435,"end":302.695,"text":"對,我很感恩。"},{"start":331.4,"end":355.393,"text":"所以我們所以這部分的話當然就是這個需要的這個我們可以看到說我們有這個艦翔嘛可以攻擊這個敵艦的這個雷達通訊系統等等可是我有看到其實我們還是有少了兩個功能因為我之前有請辦公室稍微去做了一個一個整理就是說OK 不管艦翔也好或是說我們即將要購入的這個"},{"start":359.636,"end":361.437,"text":"有嗎 有辦法嗎 有"},{"start":387.176,"end":409.504,"text":"也是有是不是?那有在進行當中嗎?第一個先跟委員報告那個建翔他是有匿蹤能力的並不是沒有建翔是有匿蹤的能力嗎?而且他還伴隨有幼兒所以他還有幼兒?是還有伴隨幼兒因為我目前看到建翔的細節還沒有到這麼多一直看到就是說其實我們應該因為專家學者有在提到說其實這個部分的話我們應該是要來做研發"},{"start":412.385,"end":433.704,"text":"另外還有一個就是空中的這個加油機這個部分的話我們有在做研發嗎?因為這在這個油料的補給其實還是非常重要的因為我們現在連有人的空中加油機都沒有都沒有所以無人的話現在還所以這部分我們還沒有能力來研發就是了另外跟委員報告有關攻擊型無人機其實我們現在"},{"start":434.625,"end":437.128,"text":"但是我們的數量好像到目前為止我們的數量其實還是不足的我有看過這個烏克蘭他們一年當中"},{"start":453.146,"end":456.629,"text":"各位委員報告我想可能太具體的我想不是以太多過多的接受但是總體來講就是說"},{"start":474.642,"end":496.879,"text":"共軍假設要登陸作戰的時候他在這個航路的過程當中會有一個最脆弱的這個時候那在最脆弱的這個階段我們現在要發展就是在他最脆弱的那個階段然後來運用無人機來進行一個攻擊那這個可能是尋求一個大量的或者有一個匿蹤功能或者甚至是一個"},{"start":499.059,"end":527.754,"text":"就是說也有一個精準的一個功能等等這些所以各式的無人機現在發展的這個速度是非常的快的大概不多久就會有新的這種概念出來所以我們現在沒有辦法跟委員在公開的分享但是這個部分是我們無人機的運用甚至包括無人艇的運用這個部分是我們在整個防衛構想上面"},{"start":528.354,"end":555.951,"text":"日後一定會扮演非常非常重要的角色OK了解這個這部分的話OK如果不方便透露的話那這樣我們這個這一題就到這裡那再來呢下來我想要提到的就是原物料短缺的這個問題那我們先發現說我相信我相信台灣真的有能力生產這個無人機的這個機組件等等可是我們缺乏的還是原物料"},{"start":556.331,"end":556.631,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":592.279,"end":595.804,"text":"我想我們現在就是說"},{"start":598.823,"end":626.932,"text":"或者中科院先回答說明它一些相關的一些部分然後再整個就整體我們現在委員就是針對供應鏈韌性的部分其實我們也做了很多最壞狀況的想定當然現在很多我們進口都沒有問題那我們甚至已經布局到就是說假如您剛剛講的相關原料我們被封鎖了或者是進不來了或者是斷絕進來我們用其他的替代方式例如3D列印"},{"start":627.372,"end":627.412,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":649.915,"end":677.946,"text":"那再來還有一點我有看到國防安情研究院的國防國安所有提到他說臺灣的廠商有能力生產90%的無人機零組件可是目前臺灣還沒有辦法做到的關鍵零件是光電球相機雲台就等於這個無人機的眼睛這部分我們有辦法解決嗎我看這份報導好像是10月份最近的BBC News裡面所報導的針對這部分我想請教國防部"},{"start":679.626,"end":707.575,"text":"我們現在正在採購一項設備我們採購這個設備進來之後我相信在很短的時間之內光電球的部分我們可以克服可以克服,我們可以自己來我們目前的話都是從哪裡採購?以色列?日本比較多所以那我們自己本身有辦法來研製就對了我們現在就是想要跨過這個障礙但是它的有一個關鍵性的設備我們最近才獲得輸出許可"},{"start":709.38,"end":710.18,"text":"這部分是可以解決的"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:17:42.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:17:50.858000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請顧部長、軍備局林文祥中將，還有中科院李世強中將。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:17:50.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:17:51.999000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:18:00.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:18:00.741000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:18:01.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:18:11.330000+08:00","text":"部長，從烏俄戰爭的國土防衛作戰當中，我們看到無人機確實扮演了非常重要的角色，可以充分發揮不對稱作戰的優勢，我國也是借鑑於此，所以這幾年來一直在積極籌建無人機戰力。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:18:19.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:18:31.203000+08:00","text":"除了向國外軍購的MQ-9B無人機之外，其實我們也透過中科院委製或國內商購的方式來籌獲。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:18:31.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:18:52.595000+08:00","text":"剛剛我聽軍備局林中將有提到，目前無人機的機種主要是區分為監偵跟攻擊兩大類，這兩個機型是不是完全合乎我們的作戰需求？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:18:53.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:19:22.010000+08:00","text":"因為本席先前有參閱國防情勢特刊，裡面刊登了一篇有關我國無人機軍事運作的現行及未來發展的分析報告，其中提到目前我國的無人機如果對應到108年國防報告書所提出的整體防衛構想，我國的無人機是不是能夠合乎戰時所需。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:19:24.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:19:27.976000+08:00","text":"這個部分我想國防部應該都非常熟悉。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:19:28.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:19:36.504000+08:00","text":"也因為這份分析報告，所以本席跟辦公室重新整理了目前我國服役中或者是研發中的無人機在整體防衛構想當中的對應角色。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:19:39.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:19:53.877000+08:00","text":"現在我們提到的整體防衛構想分為三個階段，第一個階段是戰力防護，第二個階段是濱海決勝，第三個階段是灘岸殲敵。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:19:54.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:20:04.865000+08:00","text":"我們先來看第一階段的部分，目前我們所擁有的無人機是不是就合乎該階段所需要的機種？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:20:07.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:20:12.409000+08:00","text":"OK，我們先來看戰力防護的階段，其實戰力防護階段是貫穿整個作戰的全程，我們要透過各種手段來保持戰力並進行損害控制，也就是讓這個損害降到最低，所以這個時候需要的機型應該就是微／小型、戰術型和反輻射型的無人機，而確實我們就有紅雀二、三型，還有銳鳶、騰雲、劍翔等等，我們都有這方面的機型。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:20:12.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:20:27.818333+08:00","text":"可是對應到我之前參閱的報告，幫我們檢視現在我們所擁有的機型，我們缺少什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:20:27.818333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:20:43.227667+08:00","text":"缺少了運輸型的無人機。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:20:43.227667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:20:58.637000+08:00","text":"像中國、美國跟俄羅斯這些國家，其實他們都有投入研製運輸型的無人機，希望在戰時能夠投入運補彈藥、燃料還有補給品等等，再來是如果交通被截斷的時候，運輸型的無人機其實是可以來做為輔助的。","quality":0.169},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:20:58.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:25.751000+08:00","text":"所以我想請問，我們未來是否會投入相關資源進行運輸型無人機的研製？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:25.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:35.479000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，中科院所有的研發需求都是依照軍種提出的作戰需求來發展的，的確，目前軍種並沒有提出有關無人機……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:35.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:37.441000+08:00","text":"它並沒有提出來？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:37.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:38.441000+08:00","text":"對，我們回去會再檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:37.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:41.604000+08:00","text":"那變成中科院這邊就沒有來做研發？是。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:42.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:44.727000+08:00","text":"請問部長，這部分我們為什麼沒有提出呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:45.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:21:51.432000+08:00","text":"我最近也看到相關的報告，美軍確實正在研發運輸型的無人機。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:21:56.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:22:22.506000+08:00","text":"因為涉及無人機載重的能量跟它的航程，還有存活率等等的，我們會根據現在看到的美軍相關報告，積極地來研討運輸型無人機在整個防衛作戰上面的需求。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:22:24.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:22:32.230000+08:00","text":"這個部分我認為如果我們有一定的作戰需求的話，我們自主研發的能力應該是還可以的。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:22:32.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:22:34.891000+08:00","text":"我們其實也是有這個能力來做研發的嘛！是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:22:35.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:22:43.435000+08:00","text":"因為之前我有看到交通部也希望利用運輸型的無人機，它可能是屬於比較小型的，用來載運郵包、協助處理郵務方面的事情，其實這個部分我覺得應該是可以來做延伸。","quality":0.493},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:22:43.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:00.479000+08:00","text":"因為我在這個報告裡面有看到，所以我特別提出來，這部分應該是我們在作戰的時候特別需要的。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:23:00.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:17.523000+08:00","text":"再來我們看到第二階段濱海決勝的部分，濱海決勝最主要是在陸上或是海上來攔截，比如我們可以癱瘓敵方高價值的艦艇等等。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:23:17.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:23.766000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們可以看到我們有劍翔，可以攻擊敵艦的雷達、通訊系統等等。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:23:24.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:36.293000+08:00","text":"可是我們還是少了兩個功能，因為我之前有請辦公室稍微整理，不管劍翔也好，或者是我們即將要購入MQ-9B，並沒有隱匿功能，所以很容易就會被發現、很容易就被擊落。","quality":0.58},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:23:36.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:41.837000+08:00","text":"像這個部分也有專家學者提到，不管是MQ-9B或者劍翔，其實都沒有匿蹤的能力，所以我們有能力來研發匿蹤無人機嗎？有嗎？","quality":0.078},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:23:41.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:23:42.417000+08:00","text":"有辦法嗎？有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:08.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:08.856000+08:00","text":"也是有，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:09.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:10.217000+08:00","text":"那有在進行當中嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:10.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:13.558000+08:00","text":"第一個先跟委員報告，劍翔是有匿蹤能力的，並不是沒有。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:13.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:15.299000+08:00","text":"劍翔是有匿蹤的能力嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:15.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:17.419000+08:00","text":"有匿蹤而且他還伴隨有誘餌，所以有真的……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:19.380000+08:00","text":"他還有誘餌？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:19.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:20.520000+08:00","text":"是，還有伴隨誘餌。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:20.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:21.721000+08:00","text":"他有伴隨誘餌？是。OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:21.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:30.504000+08:00","text":"因為我目前看到劍翔的細節還沒有到這麼多，一直看到專家學者提到，這個部分我們應該要來研發。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:33.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:39.251000+08:00","text":"另外還有一個就是空中加油機，這個部分我們有在研發嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:39.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:42.533000+08:00","text":"因為這在油料的補給，其實還是非常重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:42.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:45.736000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在連有人的空中加油機都沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:46.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:48.539000+08:00","text":"都沒有，所以無人的話，現在還……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:48.539000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:49.539000+08:00","text":"無人的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:48.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:50.921000+08:00","text":"所以這部分我們還沒有能力來研發就是了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:50.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:51.921000+08:00","text":"是，還沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:51.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:55.845000+08:00","text":"另外跟委員報告，有關攻擊型無人機，其實我們現在不一定要從匿蹤發展，就我們的戰術概念來講，我們需要的是數量，我們要數量很龐大的攻擊型無人機，然後配合其他比較昂貴的精準彈藥，高低配合……","quality":0.317},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:55.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:24:57.567000+08:00","text":"可是好像到目前為止，我們的數量還是不足的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:24:57.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:03.213333+08:00","text":"是，目前我們正在全力補這一塊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:03.213333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:08.859667+08:00","text":"我有看到烏克蘭一年當中所損失的無人機就1萬以上，可是我們目前製造的量還是有限的，這個量我們如何去做？","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:08.859667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:14.506000+08:00","text":"我們目前有能力把我們的量能加大嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:14.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:16.708000+08:00","text":"我想太具體的不適宜過多揭露……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:16.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:17.708000+08:00","text":"這是屬於比較機敏的。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:17.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:25:41.787000+08:00","text":"但是總體來講，共軍假設要登陸作戰，他在航渡的過程當中，會有一個最脆弱的時候。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:25:44.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:26:16.448000+08:00","text":"我們現在發展的就是在他最脆弱的那個階段，運用無人機來進行攻擊，這個可能是尋求大量的或者有匿蹤功能，甚至是有精準的功能等等，所以各式無人機現在發展的速度是非常快的，大概不多久就會有新的概念出來。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:26:16.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:26:32.236000+08:00","text":"因此，我們現在沒有辦法跟委員公開分享，但是無人機的運用，甚至包括無人艇的運用，在我們整個防衛構想上面，日後一定會扮演非常、非常重要的角色。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:26:32.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:26:33.357000+08:00","text":"OK，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:26:34.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:26:40.341000+08:00","text":"這個部分如果不方便透露，這一題就到這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:26:40.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:26:44.443000+08:00","text":"再來，我想要提到的就是原物料短缺的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:26:48.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:27:36.784000+08:00","text":"我相信臺灣真的有能力生產無人機的機組件等等，可是我們缺乏的還是原物料，當然我看到的資料都是來自於很多報告，比如製造無人機所需要的碳纖維，跟它所需要的石油，鋁合金生產所需要的鋁錠跟稀土等等，我們應該是大部分都需要依賴進口，其中稀土，中國更是主要的供應國。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:27:36.784000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:27:38.433500+08:00","text":"未來我們對於原物料要如何處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:27:38.433500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:27:40.083000+08:00","text":"萬一我們的供應鏈出了問題，我們要如何來解決原物料的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-24T09:27:40.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:27:46.005000+08:00","text":"由中科院先回答、說明一些相關的部分，我再就整體來回應。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:27:47.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:27:51.967000+08:00","text":"針對供應鏈韌性的部分，我們也做了很多最壞狀況的想定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:27:52.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:07.912000+08:00","text":"當然現在很多進口都沒有問題，我們甚至已經布局到，假如您剛剛講的相關原料被封鎖了，或者是進不來了，又或者斷絕進來，我們會用其他的替代方式，例如3D列印、金屬射出成型，這些都是為未來我們會努力的方式。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:07.912000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:12.556600+08:00","text":"現在你們都有腹案，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:12.556600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:17.201200+08:00","text":"不會因為供應鏈出了問題之後，就沒有辦法繼續，其實還是可以的，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:17.201200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:21.845800+08:00","text":"我們推演了很多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:21.845800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:26.490400+08:00","text":"有辦法解決就是了？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:26.490400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:31.135000+08:00","text":"當然我知道很多細節你們可能無法來透露，可是我想知道萬一供應鏈出了問題，我們有沒有辦法解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:31.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:51.383000+08:00","text":"再來還有一點，我有看到國防安全研究院國安所有提到，臺灣的廠商有能力生產百分之九十的無人機零組件，可是目前臺灣還沒有辦法做到的關鍵零件是光電球、相機雲台，等於是無人機的眼睛，這部分我們有辦法解決嗎？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:51.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:57.405000+08:00","text":"我看這份報導好像是10月份、最近的，BBC News所報導的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:28:57.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:28:58.926000+08:00","text":"針對這部分，我想請教國防部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:00.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:05.528000+08:00","text":"我們現在正在採購一項設備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:05.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:06.528000+08:00","text":"只能採購，我們有辦法研發嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:05.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:10.249000+08:00","text":"不是，我們採購這個設備進來之後，我相信在很短的時間之內，可以克服光電球的部分。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:11.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:11.990000+08:00","text":"可以克服？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:12.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:13.750000+08:00","text":"我們可以自己來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:13.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:15.151000+08:00","text":"我們目前都是從哪裡採購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:15.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:15.871000+08:00","text":"以色列？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:15.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:18.132000+08:00","text":"我看到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:18.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:18.652000+08:00","text":"日本比較多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:19.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:21.773000+08:00","text":"我們自己本身有辦法來研製？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:22.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:28.555000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是想要跨過這個障礙，但是有一個關鍵性的設備，我們最近才獲得輸出許可。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:30.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:31.160000+08:00","text":"所以這部分是可以解決的？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:31.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:34.231429+08:00","text":"大概還要一年的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:34.531429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:37.674286+08:00","text":"好，我知道真的是很不容易。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:37.974286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:46.831429+08:00","text":"我們期待臺灣的無人機隊都能夠自己來研發，當然就是要壯大自己的軍力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:47.131429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:53.417143+08:00","text":"這部分非常感謝國防部，還有軍備局跟中科院的努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員美玲","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:53.717143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:54.860000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:55.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:57.160000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅美玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:57.460000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:29:58.602857+08:00","text":"部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:29:58.902857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:30:02.617143+08:00","text":"接下來，請陳永康委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時17分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長、軍備局林文祥中將，還有中科院李世強中將。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：部長好。部長，從烏俄戰爭的國土防衛作戰當中，我們看到無人機確實扮演了非常重要的角色，可以充分發揮不對稱作戰的優勢，我國也是借鑑於此，所以這幾年來一直在積極籌建無人機戰力。除了向國外軍購的MQ-9B無人機之外，其實我們也透過中科院委製或國內商購的方式來籌獲。剛剛我聽軍備局林中將有提到，目前無人機的機種主要是區分為監偵跟攻擊兩大類，這兩個機型是不是完全合乎我們的作戰需求？因為本席先前有參閱國防情勢特刊，裡面刊登了一篇有關我國無人機軍事運作的現行及未來發展的分析報告，其中提到目前我國的無人機如果對應到108年國防報告書所提出的整體防衛構想，我國的無人機是不是能夠合乎戰時所需。這個部分我想國防部應該都非常熟悉。也因為這份分析報告，所以本席跟辦公室重新整理了目前我國服役中或者是研發中的無人機在整體防衛構想當中的對應角色。","現在我們提到的整體防衛構想分為三個階段，第一個階段是戰力防護，第二個階段是濱海決勝，第三個階段是灘岸殲敵。我們先來看第一階段的部分，目前我們所擁有的無人機是不是就合乎該階段所需要的機種？OK，我們先來看戰力防護的階段，其實戰力防護階段是貫穿整個作戰的全程，我們要透過各種手段來保持戰力並進行損害控制，也就是讓這個損害降到最低，所以這個時候需要的機型應該就是微／小型、戰術型和反輻射型的無人機，而確實我們就有紅雀二、三型，還有銳鳶、騰雲、劍翔等等，我們都有這方面的機型。可是對應到我之前參閱的報告，幫我們檢視現在我們所擁有的機型，我們缺少什麼呢？缺少了運輸型的無人機。像中國、美國跟俄羅斯這些國家，其實他們都有投入研製運輸型的無人機，希望在戰時能夠投入運補彈藥、燃料還有補給品等等，再來是如果交通被截斷的時候，運輸型的無人機其實是可以來做為輔助的。所以我想請問，我們未來是否會投入相關資源進行運輸型無人機的研製？"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，中科院所有的研發需求都是依照軍種提出的作戰需求來發展的，的確，目前軍種並沒有提出有關無人機……"],["羅委員美玲：它並沒有提出來？"],["李院長世強：對，我們回去會再檢討。"],["羅委員美玲：那變成中科院這邊就沒有來做研發？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["羅委員美玲：請問部長，這部分我們為什麼沒有提出呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我最近也看到相關的報告，美軍確實正在研發運輸型的無人機。因為涉及無人機載重的能量跟它的航程，還有存活率等等的，我們會根據現在看到的美軍相關報告，積極地來研討運輸型無人機在整個防衛作戰上面的需求。這個部分我認為如果我們有一定的作戰需求的話，我們自主研發的能力應該是還可以的。"],["羅委員美玲：我們其實也是有這個能力來做研發的嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員美玲：因為之前我有看到交通部也希望利用運輸型的無人機，它可能是屬於比較小型的，用來載運郵包、協助處理郵務方面的事情，其實這個部分我覺得應該是可以來做延伸。因為我在這個報告裡面有看到，所以我特別提出來，這部分應該是我們在作戰的時候特別需要的。","再來我們看到第二階段濱海決勝的部分，濱海決勝最主要是在陸上或是海上來攔截，比如我們可以癱瘓敵方高價值的艦艇等等。這個部分我們可以看到我們有劍翔，可以攻擊敵艦的雷達、通訊系統等等。可是我們還是少了兩個功能，因為我之前有請辦公室稍微整理，不管劍翔也好，或者是我們即將要購入MQ-9B，並沒有隱匿功能，所以很容易就會被發現、很容易就被擊落。像這個部分也有專家學者提到，不管是MQ-9B或者劍翔，其實都沒有匿蹤的能力，所以我們有能力來研發匿蹤無人機嗎？有嗎？有辦法嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有。"],["羅委員美玲：也是有，是不是？那有在進行當中嗎？"],["李院長世強：第一個先跟委員報告，劍翔是有匿蹤能力的，並不是沒有。"],["羅委員美玲：劍翔是有匿蹤的能力嗎？"],["李院長世強：有匿蹤而且他還伴隨有誘餌，所以有真的……"],["羅委員美玲：他還有誘餌？"],["李院長世強：是，還有伴隨誘餌。"],["羅委員美玲：他有伴隨誘餌？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。因為我目前看到劍翔的細節還沒有到這麼多，一直看到專家學者提到，這個部分我們應該要來研發。另外還有一個就是空中加油機，這個部分我們有在研發嗎？因為這在油料的補給，其實還是非常重要的。"],["李院長世強：因為我們現在連有人的空中加油機都沒有……"],["羅委員美玲：都沒有，所以無人的話，現在還……"],["李院長世強：無人的部分……"],["羅委員美玲：所以這部分我們還沒有能力來研發就是了？"],["李院長世強：是，還沒有。另外跟委員報告，有關攻擊型無人機，其實我們現在不一定要從匿蹤發展，就我們的戰術概念來講，我們需要的是數量，我們要數量很龐大的攻擊型無人機，然後配合其他比較昂貴的精準彈藥，高低配合……"],["羅委員美玲：可是好像到目前為止，我們的數量還是不足的。"],["李院長世強：是，目前我們正在全力補這一塊。"],["羅委員美玲：我有看到烏克蘭一年當中所損失的無人機就1萬以上，可是我們目前製造的量還是有限的，這個量我們如何去做？我們目前有能力把我們的量能加大嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想太具體的不適宜過多揭露……"],["羅委員美玲：這是屬於比較機敏的。"],["顧部長立雄：但是總體來講，共軍假設要登陸作戰，他在航渡的過程當中，會有一個最脆弱的時候。我們現在發展的就是在他最脆弱的那個階段，運用無人機來進行攻擊，這個可能是尋求大量的或者有匿蹤功能，甚至是有精準的功能等等，所以各式無人機現在發展的速度是非常快的，大概不多久就會有新的概念出來。因此，我們現在沒有辦法跟委員公開分享，但是無人機的運用，甚至包括無人艇的運用，在我們整個防衛構想上面，日後一定會扮演非常、非常重要的角色。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，了解。這個部分如果不方便透露，這一題就到這裡。","再來，我想要提到的就是原物料短缺的問題。我相信臺灣真的有能力生產無人機的機組件等等，可是我們缺乏的還是原物料，當然我看到的資料都是來自於很多報告，比如製造無人機所需要的碳纖維，跟它所需要的石油，鋁合金生產所需要的鋁錠跟稀土等等，我們應該是大部分都需要依賴進口，其中稀土，中國更是主要的供應國。未來我們對於原物料要如何處理？萬一我們的供應鏈出了問題，我們要如何來解決原物料的問題？"],["顧部長立雄：由中科院先回答、說明一些相關的部分，我再就整體來回應。"],["李院長世強：針對供應鏈韌性的部分，我們也做了很多最壞狀況的想定。當然現在很多進口都沒有問題，我們甚至已經布局到，假如您剛剛講的相關原料被封鎖了，或者是進不來了，又或者斷絕進來，我們會用其他的替代方式，例如3D列印、金屬射出成型，這些都是為未來我們會努力的方式。"],["羅委員美玲：現在你們都有腹案，對不對？不會因為供應鏈出了問題之後，就沒有辦法繼續，其實還是可以的，是不是？"],["李院長世強：我們推演了很多……"],["羅委員美玲：有辦法解決就是了？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["羅委員美玲：當然我知道很多細節你們可能無法來透露，可是我想知道萬一供應鏈出了問題，我們有沒有辦法解決。","再來還有一點，我有看到國防安全研究院國安所有提到，臺灣的廠商有能力生產百分之九十的無人機零組件，可是目前臺灣還沒有辦法做到的關鍵零件是光電球、相機雲台，等於是無人機的眼睛，這部分我們有辦法解決嗎？我看這份報導好像是10月份、最近的，BBC News所報導的。針對這部分，我想請教國防部。"],["李院長世強：我們現在正在採購一項設備。"],["羅委員美玲：只能採購，我們有辦法研發嗎？"],["李院長世強：不是，我們採購這個設備進來之後，我相信在很短的時間之內，可以克服光電球的部分。"],["羅委員美玲：可以克服？我們可以自己來。我們目前都是從哪裡採購？以色列？我看到……"],["李院長世強：日本比較多。"],["羅委員美玲：我們自己本身有辦法來研製？"],["李院長世強：我們現在就是想要跨過這個障礙，但是有一個關鍵性的設備，我們最近才獲得輸出許可。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這部分是可以解決的？"],["李院長世強：大概還要一年的時間。"],["羅委員美玲：好，我知道真的是很不容易。我們期待臺灣的無人機隊都能夠自己來研發，當然就是要壯大自己的軍力。這部分非常感謝國防部，還有軍備局跟中科院的努力。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。部長請回。","接下來，請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}