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組長早第一題先請教一下總長因為一樣的問題我之前問過部長請總長看一下這是看不下去的基層檢察官請法務部開課要學習怎麼樣被媒體經營可以請經營多年的學長們擔任講座學長應該就是值得比較資深的檢察官"},{"start":51.235,"end":76.896,"text":"對於現今檢媒一體的亂象毫無積極作為使檢察官失去人民的信任將檢察官的名氣踩在腳下終將成為檢方歷史的罪人這個有檢察官寫給北京檢察長高檢檢察長跟檢察總長來請請檢察總長檢察總長檢察官的心聲這個有聽到嗎有看到有看到嗎你認不認同他的說法"},{"start":79.424,"end":98.173,"text":"這個委員是指的哪一方面是指的他說啊他第一個說沒有沒有沒有他講的是兩個現象嘛第一個是檢了議題的亂象嘛第二個他說三個大家長都沒有積極作為第一個是現象第二個是他對你們的指控檢查總長贊不贊成是這樣說啦齁這個"},{"start":103.564,"end":128.192,"text":"我先把主持弄一下就是說是什麼樣的這個主持怎麼樣就是這個議題的主持是什麼就是說現今的檢檢媒體亂象還是是第一個對檢媒體的亂象當然了這個現在這個主題是不是亂象這個是見仁見智不過不過這個在所有辦案的場合我們"},{"start":130.834,"end":154.637,"text":"都會事先跟檢察官提醒齁你認為這個亂象存不存在這個偵查不公開一定要切實做到是是是那個總長你認為這個亂象存不存在第一個答案很簡單嘛第一個是這個檢察官有誤會嘛不要說檢察官胡說八道啦他可能有誤會根本沒有這個亂象嘛如果沒有這個亂象就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛"},{"start":156.404,"end":183.846,"text":"有沒有這個亂象,如果有,如果有亂象,如果有的話那我們必須要強調一點偵查不公開是我們檢察官基本的倫理基本的道德就在各種場合我都跟檢察官提醒了他們事實上他們說你們毫無作為你認不認同這個講到這點我講的引申到第二點這個所謂的委員所長的作為是指什麼"},{"start":186.732,"end":194.116,"text":"這個我跟總長溝通一下這不是我說的這個是基層檢察官說的那現在他們說你們毫無作為嘛解沒議題的亂象啊所以我才跟你講嘛你如果不認為有解沒議題的亂象的話就沒有第二個層次的問題嗎"},{"start":212.408,"end":234.698,"text":"我們司法院有一個叫做偵查不公開作業辦這還是個法規命令這裡面規定的非常的嚴格它這裡面不但是偵查的內容包括偵查的程序都不公開規定的是非常嚴格但是在實務上它的配套措施"},{"start":236.042,"end":257.818,"text":"並不充足包括實務上的運作卷證包括這個裁定書或是抗告書等等規定的實務上並沒有那麼的周延所以在總統我先停一下第一個你覺得目前規範上面的規範不是那麼周延嗎這是一個原因之一沒有關係我先就這個問題就好因為我後面還有重要的問題"},{"start":260.4,"end":274.71,"text":"針對規範不周延的部分最高檢察署有沒有打算要推進有更周延的規範這我要說明這個職責這個職權是我們司法院在主張的你有沒有要建議司法院有更周延的規範"},{"start":276.348,"end":296.978,"text":"但如果有需要我們最高檢察署當然有需要嘛那是不是會後請總長把您認為哪裡規範不周延的部分用書面提供給我們參考因為你如果今天檢察總長都說規範不周延啊知識體大我們共同來推動啊規範的周延所以拜託總長"},{"start":298.459,"end":320.397,"text":"會後用書面告訴大家哪裡規範不周延相關的配套好可以相關的配套上一次啊我問總長兩個案子嘛一個是RNB案另外一個是泰建泰電案跟北檢告發的那天您跟我說啊你痛心疾首可是10月7號的時候啊鄭明謙跟我說啊最高檢簽結了"},{"start":322.878,"end":346.33,"text":"我先把具體的問題搞清楚違反偵查不公開相關的作業辦法有行政調查的部分有沒有洩密的部分是刑事偵查的部分嗎我這樣說應該沒有錯吧我們法律也把行政調查跟刑事偵查分清楚政部長所說的最高檢牽結的應該是指的刑事偵查的部分吧"},{"start":348.964,"end":355.233,"text":"這樣我跟委員報告齁那天委員提到事情事實上我後面還沒有講完剛好今天很感謝委員有這個機會讓我做個說明齁這個"},{"start":359.517,"end":379.153,"text":"裡面有很多的因素我剛剛講的只是前面一個這個我了解然後很多在實務上運作的一些總長不好意思我時間有限我們講具體的部分就好了政部長說陳鮑最高檢最高檢牽結了他說的有沒有錯還是根本沒這個案子"},{"start":380.188,"end":399.791,"text":"是有牽結還是沒有牽結這個問題很具體啦檢查行政是這個行政上的責任的追究所以先停一下啦現在我們在討論的是行政調查還是刑事偵查刑事偵查當然是我們檢查所以您現在在講的是刑事偵查還是行政調查"},{"start":401.653,"end":410.171,"text":"我現在講的是這個行政調查檢查行政的部分是屬於這個部裡的職權那刑事偵查的督導是屬於最高檢察署"},{"start":411.614,"end":438.769,"text":"那所謂部長所謂的呈報最高檢簽結的指的是行政還是刑事我們這個資料來了之後我們是發交到這個地人署去啦所以是行政調查所以是行政還是行事當然發交到台高檢署去他們就做調查調查的時候有兩個這個層次如果有違反刑事的話那就刑事偵查就辦刑事責任了而如果只是行政疏忽的話那就行政懲戒了那最後的結論呢"},{"start":441.186,"end":462.714,"text":"這結論我們發交下去之後到了台高檢署他們後來怎麼樣處理的並沒有並沒有通知我們最高檢沒有通知你們奇怪了那部長怎麼會說最高檢牽結了這跟委員做一個補充這個是有北檢有分案調查或整個整個一個有成那個行等一下北檢的分案調查是刑事偵查還是行政調查先講清楚"},{"start":463.871,"end":480.691,"text":"是行政還是刑事這是一個行政調查是行政調查所以行政調查牽結的是北檢牽結的嗎這個把那個一個調查的一個結果那個有呈報到最高檢總長你有看到這個調查的結果嗎"},{"start":485.717,"end":505.413,"text":"行政調查是屬於檢查行政那刑事偵查才是我們督導的範圍當時來了之後回來之後我馬上就分案發交到台高檢署然後發到台北地檢署他們是說在刑事上查物不法刑事他們回報我們就這樣子"},{"start":506.474,"end":512.138,"text":"行政調查的部分是不是也結束了請請教部長這個也是結束了所以你那天在回答的時候是行事偵查還是行政調查我是強調是行政調查"},{"start":531.621,"end":533.822,"text":"昨天已經發案給委員了。昨天發案給我嗎?好,OK。來,講齁。請警察總長。"},{"start":550.053,"end":567.802,"text":"閱能的貪腐一直是你在擔任檢察總長的時候非常重要的功課。談言閱能的事情我從去年年初就開始追了啦我從去年年初開始追我追這些案子都是公開追的啦我講的事情都很具體所以呢"},{"start":570.273,"end":599.549,"text":"最近開始進行了這樣子的一個調查那當然就台元綠能的部分最近台南地檢署也啟動了一個偵辦的程序對台南地檢署這樣偵辦的效率總長滿不滿意這我這樣說我們那個綠能我們政府長一向就非常的重視那台南地檢署這個案子事實上他們偵辦是有一段時間是沒錯我們也看到輿論所以我請教你效率滿不滿意"},{"start":600.951,"end":618.005,"text":"這我要這樣說哇 這個調查案件本來就是要需要時間是這個我了解民主的社會是是是然後還有法院是相關的一些這個我都了解了因為我也可以跟總長還有跟部長報告了我檢舉過非常多的案子了有很多現在還躺在台北地檢署啊"},{"start":618.726,"end":644.523,"text":"躺了三年的都有啊我也是靜靜的等待啊靜靜等待看檢察官什麼時候醒來要辦啊我也是非常耐心的等待啊因為偵查不公開嘛他辦不辦有沒有什麼具體作為外界無從得知啊只能尊重嘛但這個案子竟然啟動了所以我才請教總長說這個案子的效率滿不滿意台灣地檢署偵辦這個案子啊的進度有沒有跟您報告"},{"start":645.387,"end":674.867,"text":"那我能不能跟委員請教一下沒有不好意思我請教一下總長台南地檢署辦這個案子有沒有跟您報告有有嘛對嘛我就喜歡總長這樣講話就事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣因為我知道啊你10月你應該是10月16號的時候下去台南吧是你10月16號下去台南的時候他們有沒有跟你報告案件的進度"},{"start":676.294,"end":703.491,"text":"我們辦案件我跟委員報告一下他是個需要時間的量來磨的啦他們辦的相當長而且非常的辛苦啦所以這個效率你滿不滿意他的進度都有跟你報告嘛因為我掌握到的狀況也是這樣嘛滿不滿意就看接下來我講個問題嘛就看結果我就很冒昧問一句話委員對結果覺得有什麼感覺沒有到目前為止沒有任何結果"},{"start":704.841,"end":726.328,"text":"對阿 這個案子還沒有癥結阿對嘛 所以我才問你效率的問題我盡量不要碰到內容的問題內容的部分尊重你們檢方的偵辦嘛總長你沒有發現我作為一個法律人現在哪裡我畫的很清楚啦效率跟結果齁 這要一起來觀察的啦好 沒有關係喔 我今天利用質詢的時間阿就公開檢舉"},{"start":729.551,"end":757.679,"text":"就公開檢舉因為綠能貪腐的弊案按照最高檢察署的新聞稿這個是卓榮泰他也很重視嘛部長也很重視嘛檢察總長是是是那我就公開檢舉了劉和再生的案子我先把背景講這些資訊我之前全部都公開講過了劉和再生後台很硬啊"},{"start":758.755,"end":783.713,"text":"全部都是跟綠營權貴在一起剛愁交錯時間地點我全部都確認過沒有錯丟了五千八百萬到屏東設辦公室幫潘孟安養他退休的官員這些我全部都公開講過但這個只有牽涉到政商分際的事情違法的部分不是這裡我繼續往下講來看一下"},{"start":786.195,"end":792.282,"text":"經濟部工業局張斌工業區違法套利2.63億這個我也有公開說過但問題是什麼但問題是這根本是一個違法套利的行為針對這個違法套利的行為是以特別股創造虛偽的假象"},{"start":805.663,"end":817.758,"text":"這些事情我全部都公開檢舉過留合再生在違法了以後避免被終止合約還有找我們的立法院民進黨的大黨編出來喬事情這個他"},{"start":819.363,"end":843.881,"text":"也承認了因為我照片時間地點我全部都秀出來但接下來的結果是什麼經濟部違法放水圖利什麼叫做違法放水圖利明明就知道明明就知道不應該讓他這樣套利但是我們經濟部卻點頭了我們經濟部點頭的這件事情是違法不是我一個人講的"},{"start":845.356,"end":869.481,"text":"我們的監察院終於醒來了終於醒來了到今年夏天的時候到今年夏天的時候他也認定了這個是一個違法套利的立案這件事情在最高檢察署也好高檢署也好所成立的綠能貪腐的這個打擊犯罪的專案小組裡面有沒有立案"},{"start":873.286,"end":892.228,"text":"委員錘詢是我們最高檢察署是不是?目前沒有?目前沒有嘛我這個人說話有一說一我從來不做空泛的指控我把整個歷程今天利用質詢的時間我公開跟最高檢察署提出我的檢舉"},{"start":895.547,"end":902.935,"text":"夠不夠誠發動刑事偵辦的要件我尊重檢察官的判斷但這件事情我覺得非常離譜"},{"start":904.181,"end":924.181,"text":"我覺得非常離譜從我開始追這件案子追到現在跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣都一年多了我很有耐心的等到檯岩綠能的弊案終於動了那動了就像剛檢察總長所講的我們靜靜的看最後的結果是什麼"},{"start":927.344,"end":946.414,"text":"但聯合再生的這個案子我就覺得很困惑我一樣啊公開揭發了這麼久到今年夏天我們的監察院終於認證我說的是真的那接下來我所以才今天利用這個機會請教你嘛你們有沒有立案如果沒有立案的話我利用今天公開質詢的時間啊公開檢舉這樣可以嗎?好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:15.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:16.923000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長跟檢察總長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:16.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:17.043000+08:00","text":"部長、總長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:17.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:17.063000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:30.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:31.129000+08:00","text":"部長早、總長早。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:31.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:38.833000+08:00","text":"第一題先請教一下總長，因為一樣的問題我之前問過部長了。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:38.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:51.982000+08:00","text":"請總長看一下，這是看不下去的基層檢察官，請法務部開課要學習怎麼樣被媒體經營，可以請被經營多年的學長們擔任講座。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:52.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:44:55.044000+08:00","text":"學長應該就是指比較資深的檢察官。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:44:57.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:08.064000+08:00","text":"對於現今檢媒一體的亂象，毫無積極作為，使檢察官失去人民的信任，將檢察官的名器踩在腳下，終將成為檢方歷史的罪人。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:08.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:19.913000+08:00","text":"這個是檢察官寫給北檢檢察長、高檢檢察長跟檢察總長，我們請邢檢察總長，檢察總長，檢察官的心聲有聽到嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:19.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:20.154000+08:00","text":"有看到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:20.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:22.876000+08:00","text":"有看到嘛，你認不認同他的說法？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:25.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:26.585000+08:00","text":"委員是指哪一方面？是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:28.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:29.206000+08:00","text":"他第一個說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:29.206000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:30.206000+08:00","text":"是個案還是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:29.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:40.871000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，他講的是兩個現象，第一個是檢媒一體的亂象；第二個，他說，三個大家長都沒有積極作為。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:40.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:43.993000+08:00","text":"第一個是現象，第二個是他對你們的指控，檢察總長贊不贊成？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:44.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:55.386000+08:00","text":"這樣說啦，我們先把主詞弄一下，就是說主詞是怎麼樣，這個議題的主詞是什麼？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:45:55.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:45:59.827000+08:00","text":"就是說現今檢媒一體的亂象，還是……是。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:00.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:01.648000+08:00","text":"第一個，對檢媒一體的亂象。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:02.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:19.036000+08:00","text":"當然現在這個主題是不是亂象，這個是見仁見智，不過，在所有辦案的場合，我們都會事先跟檢察官提醒，這個……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:21.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:21.879000+08:00","text":"你認為這個亂象存不存在？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:22.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:24.241000+08:00","text":"偵查不公開一定要確實做到。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:24.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:26.924000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，總長，你認為這個亂象存不存在？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:30.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:40.617000+08:00","text":"答案很簡單，第一個是這個檢察官有誤會嘛，不要說檢察官胡說八道，他可能有誤會，根本沒有這個亂象，如果沒有這個亂象就沒有第二個層次的問題了。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:42.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:46:58.357000+08:00","text":"當然有沒有這個亂象，如果有亂象的話，那我們必須要強調一點，偵查不公開是我們檢察官基本的倫理、基本的道德，在各種場合我都跟檢察官他們提醒，事實上他們……","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:46:59.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:01.759000+08:00","text":"他們說你們毫無作為，你認不認同？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:03.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:09.846000+08:00","text":"講到這點就衍生到第二點，委員所講的作為是指什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:12.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:15.313000+08:00","text":"我跟總長溝通一下，這不是我說的，這個是基層檢察官說的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:15.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:16.313000+08:00","text":"對，我了解，但是基層檢察官講的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:15.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:16.574000+08:00","text":"現在他們說你們毫無作為嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:16.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:17.574000+08:00","text":"這個作為……這個議題是指哪一方面，能不能再跟我講具體一點？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:16.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:17.094000+08:00","text":"檢媒一體的亂象啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:17.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:20.116000+08:00","text":"所以我才跟你講，你如果不認為有檢媒一體的亂象的話，就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:38.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:44.630000+08:00","text":"好，那我就講接下來這個問題，這裡面牽涉到我們司法院有一個叫做偵查不公開作業辦法。是。","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:44.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:47:55.575000+08:00","text":"我想麟倫兄應該很清楚，這還是個法規命令，這裡面規定得非常嚴格，不但是偵查的內容，包括偵查的程序都不公開喔！是。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:47:55.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:13.010000+08:00","text":"規定得非常嚴格，但是在實務上，它的配套措施並不充足，包括實務上的運作、卷宗、裁定書或是抗告書等等，規定的實務上並沒有那麼的周延，所以在……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:13.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:19.095000+08:00","text":"總長，我先停一下，第一個，你覺得目前的規範不是那麼周延。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:19.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:20.176000+08:00","text":"這是原因之一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:20.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:23.818000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我先就這個問題就好，因為我後面還有重要的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:26.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:32.364000+08:00","text":"針對規範不周延的部分，最高檢察署有沒有打算要推進，有更周延的規範？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:32.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:38.408000+08:00","text":"這個我要說明，這個職責、這個職權是我們司法院在主導的，當然……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:38.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:40.710000+08:00","text":"你有沒有要建議司法院有更周延的規範？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:42.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:43.589000+08:00","text":"如果有需要，我們最高檢察署願意……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:43.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:44.649000+08:00","text":"當然有需要嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:45.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:48:53.814000+08:00","text":"是不是會後請總長把您認為哪裡規範不周延的部分，用書面提供給我們參考？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:48:54.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:08.222000+08:00","text":"因為如果今天檢察總長都說規範不周延，茲事體大，我們共同來推動規範的周延，所以拜託總長會後用書面告訴大家哪裡規範不周延。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:08.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:09.183000+08:00","text":"相關的配套……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:09.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:09.944000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:11.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:36.582000+08:00","text":"上一次我問總長兩個案子，一個是im.B案，另外一個是太電案跟北檢告發的部分，那天您跟我說你痛心疾首，可是10月7號的時候鄭銘謙跟我說，最高檢簽結了，我們先把具體的問題搞清楚，違反偵查不公開相關的作業辦法，有行政調查的部分。對。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:37.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:42.845000+08:00","text":"有沒有洩密的部分是刑事偵查的部分，我這樣說應該沒有錯吧。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:42.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:43.845000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:43.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:49:52.310000+08:00","text":"我們法律人把行政調查跟刑事偵查分清楚，鄭部長所說的最高檢簽結的應該是指刑事偵查的部分吧！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:49:54.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:08.059000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，那天委員提到的事情，事實上我後面還沒有講完，剛好今天很感謝委員有這個機會讓我做個說明，這裡面有很多的因素，我剛剛講的只是前面一個……","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:08.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:08.439000+08:00","text":"這個我了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:08.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:10.761000+08:00","text":"然後很多在實務上運作的一些……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:12.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:13.143000+08:00","text":"總長，不好意思，我時間有限……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:13.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:14.143000+08:00","text":"配套措施……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:13.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:24.192000+08:00","text":"我們講具體的部分就好了，鄭部長說，陳報最高檢，最高檢簽結了，他說的有沒有錯？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:24.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:25.133000+08:00","text":"還是根本沒這個案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:26.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:28.651000+08:00","text":"是有簽結還是沒有簽結，這個問題很具體啦。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:29.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:33.637000+08:00","text":"檢察行政是行政上責任的追究……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:35.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:36.220000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，先停一下……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:36.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:37.501000+08:00","text":"我把它講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:37.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:40.325000+08:00","text":"現在我們在討論的是行政調查還是刑事偵查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:41.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:42.087000+08:00","text":"刑事偵查當然是我們最高檢督導……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:43.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:45.771000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，所以您現在講的是刑事偵查還是行政調查？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:47.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:50:56.151000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是行政調查、檢察行政的部分是屬於部裡的職權，刑事偵查的督導是屬於最高檢察署。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:50:57.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:02.117000+08:00","text":"好，那部長所謂的陳報最高檢簽結指的是行政還是刑事？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:02.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:05.718000+08:00","text":"這個資料來了之後，我們是發交到地檢署去……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:06.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:07.780000+08:00","text":"所以是行政調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:07.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:09.040000+08:00","text":"是發交到臺高檢署去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:09.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:10.321000+08:00","text":"所以是行政還是刑事？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:10.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:23.208000+08:00","text":"當然發交到臺高檢署去，他們就做調查，調查的時候有兩個層次，如果有違反刑事的話，那就刑事偵查，就辦刑事責任；如果只是行政疏忽的話，那就行政懲戒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:24.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:24.749000+08:00","text":"那最後的結論呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:27.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:33.108000+08:00","text":"這個結論，我們發交下去之後，到了臺高檢署，他們後來怎麼樣處理的並沒有通知我們最高檢察署。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:33.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:34.849000+08:00","text":"沒有通知你們？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:34.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:35.849000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:34.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:37.490000+08:00","text":"奇怪了，那部長怎麼會說最高檢簽結了？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:38.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:43.272000+08:00","text":"跟委員做一個補充，這個是北檢有分案調查或整個一個有成……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:44.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:47.734000+08:00","text":"等一下，北檢的分案調查是刑事偵查還是行政調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:48.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:50.832000+08:00","text":"先講清楚是行政還是刑事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:51.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:52.234000+08:00","text":"這是一個行政調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:52.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:51:57.620000+08:00","text":"是行政調查，所以行政調查簽結的是北檢簽結的嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:51:59.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:06.070000+08:00","text":"調查的結果有陳報到最高檢。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:06.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:06.691000+08:00","text":"總長，你有看到這個調查的結果嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:11.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:14.119000+08:00","text":"行政調查是屬於檢察行政。是。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:15.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:19.964000+08:00","text":"刑事偵查才是我們督導的範圍。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:19.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:20.964000+08:00","text":"是，這我了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:19.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:31.393000+08:00","text":"當時回來之後，我馬上就分案，發交到臺高檢署，然後發到臺北地檢署，他們是說在刑事上查無不法，刑事，他們有回報我們啦，就這樣子。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:31.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:32.393000+08:00","text":"刑事查無不法，所以刑事簽結了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:32.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.393000+08:00","text":"他們簽結後再告訴我們的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:34.393000+08:00","text":"他簽結之後告訴你們的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:34.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:35.393000+08:00","text":"知會我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:32.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.535000+08:00","text":"好，行政調查的部分是不是也結束了？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.635000+08:00","text":"請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.635000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:34.635000+08:00","text":"這個也是結束了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:33.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:36.997000+08:00","text":"這個也是結束了，所以你那天在回答的時候是刑事偵查還是行政調查？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:37.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:38.118000+08:00","text":"我是強調行政調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:38.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:47.869500+08:00","text":"結束的結果可以書面提供給我們嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:47.869500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:57.621000+08:00","text":"行政調查的部分，刑事偵查有不公開的問題，我尊重啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:57.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:58.141000+08:00","text":"那個昨天已經發函給委員了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:58.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:52:59.542000+08:00","text":"昨天發函給我了，好，OK！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:52:59.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:53:50.521000+08:00","text":"請檢察總長，綠能的貪腐一直是你在擔任檢察總長的時候非常重要的功課，台鹽綠能的事情，我從去年年初就開始追了，我追這些案子都是公開追的，我講的事情都很具體，所以最近開始進行這樣子的一個調查，當然就台鹽綠能的部分，最近臺南地檢署也啟動了偵辦的程序，對於臺南地檢署這樣偵辦的效率，總長滿不滿意？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:53:52.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:03.988000+08:00","text":"我這樣說，對於綠能，我們鄭部長一向非常重視，臺南地檢署對這個案子，事實上偵辦有一段時間是沒錯，我們也看到輿論。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:03.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:05.529000+08:00","text":"所以我請教你，對這個效率滿不滿意？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:06.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:10.334000+08:00","text":"我要這樣說，調查案件本來就是需要時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:10.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:11.155000+08:00","text":"是，這個我了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:11.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:12.756000+08:00","text":"因為是民主的社會。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:12.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:14.598000+08:00","text":"然後還有法院，還有相關的一些……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:15.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:35.393000+08:00","text":"這個我都了解，因為我也可以跟總長、還有跟部長報告，我檢舉過非常多的案子，有很多現在還躺在臺北地檢署，躺了三年的都有，我也是靜靜的等待，靜靜等待看檢察官什麼時候醒來要辦，我也是非常耐心的等待，偵查不公開嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:36.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:39.796000+08:00","text":"他辦不辦、有沒有什麼具體作為，外界無從得知啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:40.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:40.576000+08:00","text":"只能尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:41.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:46.980000+08:00","text":"但這個案子既然啟動了，所以我才請教總長，對這個案子的效率滿不滿意？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:47.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:50.503000+08:00","text":"臺南地檢署偵辦這個案子的進度有沒有跟您報告？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:51.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:54:53.208000+08:00","text":"我能不能跟委員請教一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:54:55.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:03.395000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我請教一下總長，臺南地檢署辦這個案子，有沒有跟您報告？有。有嘛！是。對嘛！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:04.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:12.461000+08:00","text":"我就喜歡總長這樣講話，事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:12.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:17.224000+08:00","text":"因為我知道你應該是10月16號的時候下去臺南的。是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:17.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:20.847000+08:00","text":"你10月16號下去臺南的時候，他們有沒有跟你報告案件的進度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:23.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:28.298000+08:00","text":"關於辦案件，我跟委員報告一下，它需要時間的量來磨。是。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:30.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:32.340000+08:00","text":"他們辦得時間相當長，而且非常的辛苦。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:34.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:35.542000+08:00","text":"是，所以這個效率你滿不滿意？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:36.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:37.643000+08:00","text":"他的進度都有跟你報告嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:37.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:39.845000+08:00","text":"因為我掌握到的狀況也是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:40.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:40.545000+08:00","text":"滿不滿意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:41.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:43.747000+08:00","text":"接下來我講一個問題，就看結果！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:44.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:47.389000+08:00","text":"我就很冒昧問一句話，委員對結果有什麼感覺沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:48.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:50.841000+08:00","text":"到目前為止沒有任何結果，對啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:51.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:52.682000+08:00","text":"這個案子還沒有偵結啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:52.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:55:54.502000+08:00","text":"對，還沒偵結。對嘛！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:55:54.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:06.066000+08:00","text":"所以我才問你效率的問題，我儘量不要碰到內容的問題，內容的部分尊重你們檢方的偵辦，總長你沒有發現，我做為一個法律人，線在哪裡我畫得很清楚啦！","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:06.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:09.387000+08:00","text":"效率跟結果要一起觀察的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:09.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:10.808000+08:00","text":"好，沒有關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:10.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:31.916000+08:00","text":"我今天利用質詢的時間就公開檢舉，因為綠能貪腐的弊案，按照最高檢察署的新聞稿，這個是卓榮泰很重視，部長也很重視，檢察總長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:31.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:32.916000+08:00","text":"部長上任就一再指示……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:31.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:56:32.656000+08:00","text":"是、是、是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:56:33.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:09.072000+08:00","text":"好，那我就公開檢舉聯合再生的案子，我先把背景講了，這些資訊我之前全部都公開講過了，聯合再生後臺很硬，全部都跟綠營權貴在一起，觥籌交錯，時間、地點，我全部都確認過了，沒有錯，丟了5,800萬到屏東設辦公室，幫潘孟安養他退休的官員，這些我全部都公開講過了，但這個只有牽涉到政商分際的事情，違法的部分不是這裡。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:09.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:14.117000+08:00","text":"我繼續往下講，來，看一下，經濟部工業局彰濱工業區違法套利2.63億，這個我有公開說過，但問題是什麼？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:14.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:33.365000+08:00","text":"問題是這根本是一個違法套利的行為，針對這個違法套利的行為是以特別股創造虛偽的假象，這些事情我全部都公開檢舉過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:34.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:50.107000+08:00","text":"聯合再生在違法了以後避免被終止合約，還找我們立法院民進黨的大黨鞭出來喬事情，這個他也承認了，因為我把照片、時間、地點全部都秀出來。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:50.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:52.088000+08:00","text":"但接下來的結果是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:52.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:57:55.951000+08:00","text":"經濟部違法放水圖利，什麼叫做違法放水圖利？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:57:56.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:58:13.716000+08:00","text":"明明就知道不應該讓它這樣套利，但是我們經濟部卻點頭了，我們經濟部點頭的這件事情是違法，不是我一個人講的，我們的監察院終於醒來了！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:58:15.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:58:35.461000+08:00","text":"到今年夏天的時候，它也認定了這是一個違法套利的弊案，這件事情在最高檢察署也好，高檢署也好，所成立的綠能貪腐打擊犯罪專案小組裡面有沒有立案？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:58:39.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:58:41.709000+08:00","text":"委員垂詢是我們最高檢察署是不是？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:58:41.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:58:42.470000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:58:43.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:58:43.892000+08:00","text":"目前沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:58:45.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:08.935000+08:00","text":"我這個人說話有一說一，我從來不做空泛的指控，我把整個歷程今天利用質詢的時間公開跟最高檢察署提出我的檢舉，構不構成發動刑事偵辦的要件，我尊重檢察官的判斷，但這件事情我覺得非常離譜！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:11.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:26.457000+08:00","text":"從我開始追這件案子，追到現在，跟我之前在追台鹽綠能的案子一樣，都一年多了，我很有耐心的等到台鹽綠能的弊案終於動了！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:27.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:49.012000+08:00","text":"動了，就像剛剛檢察總長所講的，我們靜靜的看最後的結果是什麼，但聯合再生這個案子，我就覺得很困惑，我一樣公開揭發了這麼久，到今年夏天我們的監察院終於認證我說的是真的，所以我今天才利用這個機會請教你，你們有沒有立案？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:49.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:52.394000+08:00","text":"如果沒有立案的話，我利用今天公開質詢的時間公開檢舉，這樣可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:52.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:53.394000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們會把監察院的報告調過來研究。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:52.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:52.414000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T09:59:52.914000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T09:59:56.628286+08:00","text":"下一位請沈發惠委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長跟檢察總長。"],["主席：部長、總長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長早、總長早。第一題先請教一下總長，因為一樣的問題我之前問過部長了。請總長看一下，這是看不下去的基層檢察官，請法務部開課要學習怎麼樣被媒體經營，可以請被經營多年的學長們擔任講座。學長應該就是指比較資深的檢察官。對於現今檢媒一體的亂象，毫無積極作為，使檢察官失去人民的信任，將檢察官的名器踩在腳下，終將成為檢方歷史的罪人。這個是檢察官寫給北檢檢察長、高檢檢察長跟檢察總長，我們請邢檢察總長，檢察總長，檢察官的心聲有聽到嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：有看到。"],["黃委員國昌：有看到嘛，你認不認同他的說法？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員是指哪一方面？是……"],["黃委員國昌：他第一個說……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是個案還是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，他講的是兩個現象，第一個是檢媒一體的亂象；第二個，他說，三個大家長都沒有積極作為。第一個是現象，第二個是他對你們的指控，檢察總長贊不贊成？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這樣說啦，我們先把主詞弄一下，就是說主詞是怎麼樣，這個議題的主詞是什麼？就是說現今檢媒一體的亂象，還是……"],["黃委員國昌：是。第一個，對檢媒一體的亂象。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：當然現在這個主題是不是亂象，這個是見仁見智，不過，在所有辦案的場合，我們都會事先跟檢察官提醒，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：你認為這個亂象存不存在？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：偵查不公開一定要確實做到。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，總長，你認為這個亂象存不存在？答案很簡單，第一個是這個檢察官有誤會嘛，不要說檢察官胡說八道，他可能有誤會，根本沒有這個亂象，如果沒有這個亂象就沒有第二個層次的問題了。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：當然有沒有這個亂象，如果有亂象的話，那我們必須要強調一點，偵查不公開是我們檢察官基本的倫理、基本的道德，在各種場合我都跟檢察官他們提醒，事實上他們……"],["黃委員國昌：他們說你們毫無作為，你認不認同？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：講到這點就衍生到第二點，委員所講的作為是指什麼？"],["黃委員國昌：我跟總長溝通一下，這不是我說的，這個是基層檢察官說的。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：對，我了解，但是基層檢察官講的……"],["黃委員國昌：現在他們說你們毫無作為嘛。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個作為……這個議題是指哪一方面，能不能再跟我講具體一點？"],["黃委員國昌：檢媒一體的亂象啊！所以我才跟你講，你如果不認為有檢媒一體的亂象的話，就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：好，那我就講接下來這個問題，這裡面牽涉到我們司法院有一個叫做偵查不公開作業辦法。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我想麟倫兄應該很清楚，這還是個法規命令，這裡面規定得非常嚴格，不但是偵查的內容，包括偵查的程序都不公開喔！"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：規定得非常嚴格，但是在實務上，它的配套措施並不充足，包括實務上的運作、卷宗、裁定書或是抗告書等等，規定的實務上並沒有那麼的周延，所以在……"],["黃委員國昌：總長，我先停一下，第一個，你覺得目前的規範不是那麼周延。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這是原因之一。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我先就這個問題就好，因為我後面還有重要的問題。針對規範不周延的部分，最高檢察署有沒有打算要推進，有更周延的規範？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個我要說明，這個職責、這個職權是我們司法院在主導的，當然……"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有要建議司法院有更周延的規範？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果有需要，我們最高檢察署願意……"],["黃委員國昌：當然有需要嘛！是不是會後請總長把您認為哪裡規範不周延的部分，用書面提供給我們參考？因為如果今天檢察總長都說規範不周延，茲事體大，我們共同來推動規範的周延，所以拜託總長會後用書面告訴大家哪裡規範不周延。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：相關的配套……"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以。上一次我問總長兩個案子，一個是im.B案，另外一個是太電案跟北檢告發的部分，那天您跟我說你痛心疾首，可是10月7號的時候鄭銘謙跟我說，最高檢簽結了，我們先把具體的問題搞清楚，違反偵查不公開相關的作業辦法，有行政調查的部分。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：對。"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有洩密的部分是刑事偵查的部分，我這樣說應該沒有錯吧。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我們法律人把行政調查跟刑事偵查分清楚，鄭部長所說的最高檢簽結的應該是指刑事偵查的部分吧！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我跟委員報告，那天委員提到的事情，事實上我後面還沒有講完，剛好今天很感謝委員有這個機會讓我做個說明，這裡面有很多的因素，我剛剛講的只是前面一個……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：然後很多在實務上運作的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：總長，不好意思，我時間有限……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：配套措施……"],["黃委員國昌：我們講具體的部分就好了，鄭部長說，陳報最高檢，最高檢簽結了，他說的有沒有錯？還是根本沒這個案子？是有簽結還是沒有簽結，這個問題很具體啦。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：檢察行政是行政上責任的追究……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，先停一下……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我把它講完。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我們在討論的是行政調查還是刑事偵查？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：刑事偵查當然是我們最高檢督導……"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對，所以您現在講的是刑事偵查還是行政調查？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我現在講的是行政調查、檢察行政的部分是屬於部裡的職權，刑事偵查的督導是屬於最高檢察署。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那部長所謂的陳報最高檢簽結指的是行政還是刑事？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個資料來了之後，我們是發交到地檢署去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是行政調查？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是發交到臺高檢署去。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是行政還是刑事？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：當然發交到臺高檢署去，他們就做調查，調查的時候有兩個層次，如果有違反刑事的話，那就刑事偵查，就辦刑事責任；如果只是行政疏忽的話，那就行政懲戒。"],["黃委員國昌：那最後的結論呢？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個結論，我們發交下去之後，到了臺高檢署，他們後來怎麼樣處理的並沒有通知我們最高檢察署。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有通知你們？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，那部長怎麼會說最高檢簽結了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員做一個補充，這個是北檢有分案調查或整個一個有成……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，北檢的分案調查是刑事偵查還是行政調查？先講清楚是行政還是刑事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：是行政調查，所以行政調查簽結的是北檢簽結的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：調查的結果有陳報到最高檢。"],["黃委員國昌：總長，你有看到這個調查的結果嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：行政調查是屬於檢察行政。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：刑事偵查才是我們督導的範圍。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這我了解。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：當時回來之後，我馬上就分案，發交到臺高檢署，然後發到臺北地檢署，他們是說在刑事上查無不法，刑事，他們有回報我們啦，就這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：刑事查無不法，所以刑事簽結了？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：他們簽結後再告訴我們的。"],["黃委員國昌：他簽結之後告訴你們的？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：知會我們。"],["黃委員國昌：好，行政調查的部分是不是也結束了？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個也是結束了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個也是結束了，所以你那天在回答的時候是刑事偵查還是行政調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是強調行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：結束的結果可以書面提供給我們嗎？行政調查的部分，刑事偵查有不公開的問題，我尊重啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個昨天已經發函給委員了。"],["黃委員國昌：昨天發函給我了，好，OK！","請檢察總長，綠能的貪腐一直是你在擔任檢察總長的時候非常重要的功課，台鹽綠能的事情，我從去年年初就開始追了，我追這些案子都是公開追的，我講的事情都很具體，所以最近開始進行這樣子的一個調查，當然就台鹽綠能的部分，最近臺南地檢署也啟動了偵辦的程序，對於臺南地檢署這樣偵辦的效率，總長滿不滿意？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我這樣說，對於綠能，我們鄭部長一向非常重視，臺南地檢署對這個案子，事實上偵辦有一段時間是沒錯，我們也看到輿論。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我請教你，對這個效率滿不滿意？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我要這樣說，調查案件本來就是需要時間。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我了解。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：因為是民主的社會。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：然後還有法院，還有相關的一些……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我都了解，因為我也可以跟總長、還有跟部長報告，我檢舉過非常多的案子，有很多現在還躺在臺北地檢署，躺了三年的都有，我也是靜靜的等待，靜靜等待看檢察官什麼時候醒來要辦，我也是非常耐心的等待，偵查不公開嘛！他辦不辦、有沒有什麼具體作為，外界無從得知啊！只能尊重。但這個案子既然啟動了，所以我才請教總長，對這個案子的效率滿不滿意？臺南地檢署偵辦這個案子的進度有沒有跟您報告？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我能不能跟委員請教一下……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我請教一下總長，臺南地檢署辦這個案子，有沒有跟您報告？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我就喜歡總長這樣講話，事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣！因為我知道你應該是10月16號的時候下去臺南的。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你10月16號下去臺南的時候，他們有沒有跟你報告案件的進度？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：關於辦案件，我跟委員報告一下，它需要時間的量來磨。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：他們辦得時間相當長，而且非常的辛苦。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以這個效率你滿不滿意？他的進度都有跟你報告嘛？因為我掌握到的狀況也是這樣。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：滿不滿意？接下來我講一個問題，就看結果！我就很冒昧問一句話，委員對結果有什麼感覺沒有？"],["黃委員國昌：到目前為止沒有任何結果，對啊！這個案子還沒有偵結啊！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：對，還沒偵結。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我才問你效率的問題，我儘量不要碰到內容的問題，內容的部分尊重你們檢方的偵辦，總長你沒有發現，我做為一個法律人，線在哪裡我畫得很清楚啦！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：效率跟結果要一起觀察的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。我今天利用質詢的時間就公開檢舉，因為綠能貪腐的弊案，按照最高檢察署的新聞稿，這個是卓榮泰很重視，部長也很重視，檢察總長……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：部長上任就一再指示……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是！好，那我就公開檢舉聯合再生的案子，我先把背景講了，這些資訊我之前全部都公開講過了，聯合再生後臺很硬，全部都跟綠營權貴在一起，觥籌交錯，時間、地點，我全部都確認過了，沒有錯，丟了5,800萬到屏東設辦公室，幫潘孟安養他退休的官員，這些我全部都公開講過了，但這個只有牽涉到政商分際的事情，違法的部分不是這裡。","我繼續往下講，來，看一下，經濟部工業局彰濱工業區違法套利2.63億，這個我有公開說過，但問題是什麼？問題是這根本是一個違法套利的行為，針對這個違法套利的行為是以特別股創造虛偽的假象，這些事情我全部都公開檢舉過。聯合再生在違法了以後避免被終止合約，還找我們立法院民進黨的大黨鞭出來喬事情，這個他也承認了，因為我把照片、時間、地點全部都秀出來。但接下來的結果是什麼？經濟部違法放水圖利，什麼叫做違法放水圖利？明明就知道不應該讓它這樣套利，但是我們經濟部卻點頭了，我們經濟部點頭的這件事情是違法，不是我一個人講的，我們的監察院終於醒來了！到今年夏天的時候，它也認定了這是一個違法套利的弊案，這件事情在最高檢察署也好，高檢署也好，所成立的綠能貪腐打擊犯罪專案小組裡面有沒有立案？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員垂詢是我們最高檢察署是不是？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：目前沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有嘛！我這個人說話有一說一，我從來不做空泛的指控，我把整個歷程今天利用質詢的時間公開跟最高檢察署提出我的檢舉，構不構成發動刑事偵辦的要件，我尊重檢察官的判斷，但這件事情我覺得非常離譜！從我開始追這件案子，追到現在，跟我之前在追台鹽綠能的案子一樣，都一年多了，我很有耐心的等到台鹽綠能的弊案終於動了！動了，就像剛剛檢察總長所講的，我們靜靜的看最後的結果是什麼，但聯合再生這個案子，我就覺得很困惑，我一樣公開揭發了這麼久，到今年夏天我們的監察院終於認證我說的是真的，所以我今天才利用這個機會請教你，你們有沒有立案？如果沒有立案的話，我利用今天公開質詢的時間公開檢舉，這樣可以嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：報告委員，我們會把監察院的報告調過來研究。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}