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攤開來你送到本期辦公室我們攤開來給全民來檢視好不好對這個昨天我們有帶文車院到貴辦公室其實他們會送過來因為開會在他們那邊開的所以他會把資料他有答應把資料送過去"},{"start":420.47,"end":449.042,"text":"好OK最重要是把資料完整好不好用錢民來做功德杯啊看他們人民辛辛苦苦的每一分的納稅錢用到什麼地方去了好不好好另外我們來談一個也是很重要的事情這個前瞻預算的第四期啊有一個很重要叫做綠營建設花了編列了多少錢綠營建設近年公正轉型關鍵戰略推動計畫編列了1億9千2百萬差不多要2億喔這個主要的"},{"start":450.106,"end":477.736,"text":"主責機關就是你國發會嘛對不對那我們來看一下成效來第一個人均的這個碳排放啊一年要碳排多少12公噸臺灣經過國發會那麼努力還有剛剛這個計畫開2億結果我們的結果是什麼溫室氣體的排放量全世界倒數第四有這麼明顯嗎"},{"start":479.312,"end":502.174,"text":"第二個也是很離譜的能源部門佔溫室氣體的排放從104年8乘5喔他不只沒有降喔所以你看一下我們的政府這麼努力結果我們的溫室氣體的排放量不只沒有降從8乘5還跳到110年的9成再看下一張能源部門裡面"},{"start":503.376,"end":517.193,"text":"能源產業的碳排放量超過7成這比例也非常高我們再看下一頁這個是目前最嚴重的問題這目前最嚴重的問題全世界都在淨零碳排"},{"start":518.752,"end":534.265,"text":"其實我們台灣一直在以廢在發電我很快跟委員報告我把它講完我把它講完你剛才的數字是2023年的數字下降非常多可是你沿用的是2022年2022年是成立這個計畫的第一年我剛剛給你的資料事實上是環境部的資料啦OK你如果有更新的"},{"start":535.085,"end":553.413,"text":"我當時就是因為拿這個資料去執行過環境部結果得到的數據2023年是有那最新的給我啦但因為他會lag兩年所以他們有一個毛菇數沒有最終實際數有最新的給我來我們要看這個更重要的這個牽扯到我們的關係到全民的健康跟生命用化石燃料來發電你看喔在2005年的時候啊"},{"start":564.028,"end":578.094,"text":"佔總發電量的75.5%,結果到了2003年,不只沒有降,反而是升高了,變81.8,這是很沒有面子的,對人民的健康、對人民的生命也是不利。」"},{"start":580.943,"end":606.065,"text":"所以另外一個大的問題我拜託主委去查一下好不好拜託一下這個事情很重要最大單一排放的來源就是台電對不對大家知道嗎法令這個修改裡面出現台電現在是不用繳碳費的民進的電廠也不用繳碳費的我提醒主委好不好為什麼要修碳費就是要減碳嘛對不對"},{"start":607.368,"end":625.858,"text":"結果我們台電還有民間電廠竟然不用繳碳費這個在歐盟沒有這種事情在先進國家也沒有我最後做一個要求我最後做一個Ending第一個不要獨落最大單一的台碳的這個大戶台電是不是應該繳碳費這個要好好去討論包括有沒有土地、民間電廠他們為什麼不用繳碳費這個要趕快去討論第二個"},{"start":628.419,"end":637.729,"text":"不宜要一直在燒煤好不好另外高碳排這些化石的燃料有問題不能一直犧牲我們的健康要怎樣把它降下來主委你要去努力好不好好謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時）請劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：張委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我上次有問你，國安基金是人民的納稅錢，每一分錢投資都非常重要，而且應該對國家發展是正面的，結果去投資一個戰爭片已經不得當了。第二個，你會發現「零日攻擊」這部片至少有六成的錢都是政府的資金，那國發基金是不是變成一個綠色的投資？我說你要送相關的資料給我，對不對？你給我的資料是什麼？是忘記了，還是不敢給？你給我的資料扣掉封面之後，大概只剩下薄薄的3頁，這個字這麼大，你是怎麼樣，忘記了，還是不敢給我？我當初跟你要的資料有投資的計畫書、申請書、營運的計畫書，還有最重要的，當初你說文化部那邊要審查，我說審議的會議紀錄你要攤開給全民去檢視。但這些東西你都沒有給我，給我的只有薄薄的3頁左右，裡面的字這麼大，真正講到內容的大概只有300字。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，因為這個資料在文化部，所以文化部文策院昨天有到您辦公室跟您的主任報告，他會事後提供。"],["張委員啓楷：事後再提供？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他昨天有去承諾，因為這個不在我們手上，所以我們請他們來……"],["張委員啓楷：他花我們人民的納稅錢，花國發基金的錢，你要盯住這個進度，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["張委員啓楷：尤其有講到那個點，很多民眾都在關心，國家發展基金、人民的錢為什麼去投資一個戰爭片？這對我們經濟發展是好的嗎？對外資來投資是好的嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我同意，所以我們也找了文化部，希望他們將來是投資到產業上，不是在影片上，希望是帶動產業的發展，不是投資影片。"],["張委員啓楷：所以以後不是在影片上面，就是公司，例如說投資它的股份這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，透過這樣方式，因為我們是希望帶動文化產業的發展，不是影片。"],["張委員啓楷：在你給我的這薄薄3頁裡面我查到一個很關鍵的部分，主委，我問你，這個是文策院給你的，也是你給我的資料，說你們召開投資審查會議通過這個投資4,170萬，我把那個時間點圈起來，你看，113年，就是今年對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，今年。"],["張委員啓楷：3月26號。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後本席再去查，你知道你投資的這一家公司的這部影片是什麼時候開拍嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不知道，因為我們沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你看，會不會覺得很奇怪，3月15號就開拍，這個影片在3月15號就開拍，然後你們國發基金通過給它的時間是3月26號。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個很正常……"],["張委員啓楷：它是怎麼樣？它能未卜先知嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：很多公司都是成立以後才來跟我們申請基金，不會沒有成立就來申請。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，不是成立，主委，是開拍的時間，你沒有資金到位，你敢開拍？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以商業行為來講，我想這個投資商自己會決定，但是因為我們並沒有介入到這件事裡面，只是我覺得就商業行為來看……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，主委，這是常識吧！這它自己要判斷，問題是國發基金，包括文化部要投資，除非有內線交易，要不然你資金……","你的國發基金加上文化部給它的錢占了這部片投資的44%，44%如果沒有到位，一般公司就敢開拍喔？你還敢給它錢，這是不是很離譜？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，狀況是這樣，因為我們這個錢給文化部以後是文化部在主導整個的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你不能每次我問你這個事情，你都推給文化部，錢是你的，而且是人民的納稅錢。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我跟您報告，我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要去問清楚，問完之後，你還是要詳細的，不是只有跟本席報告，是全民會檢視，我為什麼跟你要一個當初開會的會議資料？那就是要攤開給全民看該不該投資，現在不是只有立法院在盯著這個案子，全民會判斷。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個會議我們只有一個代表參加，我們整個國發基金現在的實到員額只有29位，它管理的量能是一兆多，其實我們沒辦法每一個都去管。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你不要講你的困難，你要解決問題，你是要解決問題的人，你不要把問題丟出來給我們，你發現有問題，你要去解決，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以我們後來要求它……"],["張委員啓楷：該給全民跟立法院的東西……我再問你更嚴重的問題，這個片子到底是未卜先知或內線交易？錢都沒有到位就開始拍了，更嚴重的是，你去看一下它這個內容是什麼？變成用人民的納稅錢去幫民進黨拍一個宣傳片嗎？你看，公司的董事是林錦昌，林錦昌是什麼背景？陳水扁以前辦公室的秘書，陳水扁的時候當過國安會諮詢委員、行政院政務委員、國安會副秘書長，以及負責蔡英文總統競選時的文稿跟發言。然後除了總顧問是林錦昌之外，有顧問沈伯洋──民進黨立法委員、黑熊學院創辦人兼院長，曹興誠──黑熊學院贊助者，蘇紫雲──黃偉哲的兄弟、國防安全研究所所長，最特別的是，你看，這個導演拍了一部片子──賴清德總統競選的廣告「在路上」。我問你，你的錢來自於哪裡？人民嘛！對不對？投資的都是綠油油的，這樣是不是人家很容易聯想，就把人民的錢搬去幫民進黨拍了一個宣傳片，是不是這樣子？主委，你或許……","所以我為什麼要一個報告？就是說不只立法院在監督，我要求的是非常公正理性的，我只要你把當初你們開會審查的紀錄攤開來，你送到本席辦公室，我們攤開來給全民來檢視，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，昨天我們有帶文策院到貴辦公室，其實他們會送過來，因為開會在他們那邊開的，所以它有答應把資料送過去。"],["張委員啓楷：好，最重要的是資料要完整，讓全民來做公道伯，看他們把人民辛辛苦苦每一分的納稅錢用到什麼地方去了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外我們來談一個也是很重要的事情，前瞻預算第四期有一個很重要的項目叫做綠能建設，編列了多少錢？「綠能建設─淨零公正轉型關鍵戰略推動計畫」編列了1億9,800萬，差不多快2億，主要的主責機關就是國發會。我們來看一下成效，第一個，人均碳排放一年碳排12公噸，臺灣經過國發會那麼努力，還有剛剛這個計畫花了2億，結果我們的結果是什麼？溫室氣體排放量的排名是全世界倒數第四，是不是很沒面子？第二個，也是很離譜的，能源部門占溫室氣體的排放，從104年八成五，不只沒有降，主委，你看一下，我們的政府這麼努力，結果我們的溫室氣體排放量，不只沒有降，還從八成五跳到111年的九成。再來，能源部門裡面能源產業的碳排放量超過七成，比例也非常高。接著，這個是目前最嚴重的問題，全世界都在淨零碳排，結果我們臺灣一直在以肺發電……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很快跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我把它講完……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：2023年的數字下降非常多，可是你剛才用的是2022年，2022年是成立這個計畫的第一年。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛給你的資料事實上是環境部的資料，你如果有更新的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我當時就是拿這個資料去詢問過環境部，結果得到的數據，2023年是有下降。"],["張委員啓楷：有最新的給我啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但因為它會lag兩年，所以他們有一個毛估數，沒有最終實際數字，所以明年才會出來……"],["張委員啓楷：如果有最新的數據給我。我們看這個更重要的，這個關係到全民的健康跟生命……"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：馬上好，謝謝主席，馬上好。用化石燃料來發電，在2005年的時候占總發電量的75.5%，結果到了2023年，不只沒有降，反而是升高了，變81.8%，這是不是也是很沒有面子的，對人民的健康、對人民的生命也是不利的。"],["主席：好……"],["張委員啓楷：我們儘快把它講完，所以另外一個大的問題，這個我拜託主委去查一下，這個事情很重要，最大單一碳排放的來源就是台電，對不對？"],["主席：張嘉郡委員……"],["張委員啓楷：大家知道嗎？我們的法令修改裡面出現，台電現在是不用繳碳費的，民間的電廠也不用繳碳費……"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["張委員啓楷：我提醒主委，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要收碳費？就是要減碳嘛，對不對？結果台電還有民間電廠竟然不用繳碳費，這個在歐盟沒有這種事情，在先進國家也沒有。我最後做一個要求……"],["主席：好，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我最後做一個ending……"],["主席：超過3分鐘了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，第一個，不要獨漏最大單一的排碳大戶，台電是不是應該繳碳費？這個好好去討論，包括有沒有圖利民間電廠，他們為什麼不用繳碳費？這個要趕快去討論。第二個，不要一直在燒煤，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，這些高碳排的化石燃料有問題，不能一直犧牲我們的健康……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要怎麼樣把它降下來，主委要去努力，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：請回座。","下一位委員請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}