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416之後他再加上說有關第十一章的這些搶子指紋專章的相關規定但是這裡面發生一個我看到一個比較大的問題就是他這些相關的程序回歸了齁"},{"start":254.278,"end":281.607,"text":"但是他有關第五項這個授權定令這個依本章實施吼的這個這個調查方式吼所得資料是保存管理銷毀陳報通知救濟監督及其他相關事項的辦法由司法院會同行政院定之這個部分不見了這一條這個被這個在他他回他回到404 416之後他這個部分並沒有過去也就是說如果按照民眾黨的版本那麼我們這個這個"},{"start":283.699,"end":309.933,"text":"訴訟法所授權授權你們訂定有關相關的這些這些特這些這個這個特殊強制處分的這些相關的取得的這些這些資料的保存管理銷毀城堡等等通知這些的你們要訂定的執法的這個授權來源就不見了所以我們是還是要回復到特殊強制處分專章裡面的授權的來訂定的一個執法"},{"start":311.572,"end":336.122,"text":"我們說如果這一條刪除了就不見了嗎?你的授權規定就不見了那這個我們這個這個刑事訴訟法這個修正我們在7月31號公布到今天兩個多月齁這個授權這個訂定的這些相關相關的這些這些資料保存管理銷毀陳報的這些的相關規定我們有沒有進度有沒有在做"},{"start":338.829,"end":344.354,"text":"我們在這過程中我知道我們其實已經開了好幾次會在研議了這個從這個好像我們7月31號公布之後你們8月13號你們就有召開有關這個強制處分特殊相關辦法的一個"},{"start":361.397,"end":366.302,"text":"一個諮詢會議,那這個也召開在9月16又召開了這個研修諮詢會議研修會議到這個禮拜21號22號就是前兩天前兩天你們又召開了特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會議"},{"start":384.054,"end":401.097,"text":"這個部分現在這樣子有沒有基本的草案或者是共識這個是屬於司法院主政的這一部分那個整個那個刑事訴訟法的相關的執法這是司法院我們是本部的話是通報法那一部分你們是通報法部分好來副院長"},{"start":403.639,"end":424.641,"text":"我們已經有一個初步的草案但是還在整個再去檢核當中希望有一個比較更完整的但我們已經有個初步了那如果在今天的會議最後結果是153條之十刪除了那你們這個規定的法源在哪裡?"},{"start":425.677,"end":451.248,"text":"我全根據就會不見了所以我們的報告裡面想說請委員這部分能夠慎重因為像這些特殊偵查的科技偵查的成果要怎麼處理這個在除了大家關切以外我們參考了其他的國家其實是非常周密要做非常周密的規範的那恐怕不能只有一個條文就弄到416然後這麼單純的去處理像日本是有非常詳密的規範"},{"start":453.168,"end":470.415,"text":"您說要把它跟一般的強制處分的程序一樣我想這個恐怕科技偵查這種特殊強制處分的這種這種他的這些不管取得資料的保存等等他跟一般的強制處分會有蠻大的差別"},{"start":471.255,"end":480.641,"text":"所以尤其是這一條的法律授權規定被拿掉個人認為是影響是蠻大的所以這個希望說等一下在修法的時候請本委會的委員大家在這個部分能夠斟酌考慮"},{"start":482.83,"end":492.48,"text":"那另外一個我剛剛講說今天還有很多的法條的部分另外一個我個人在這邊跟跟這個副部長請回跟部長來討論有關這個第228條之一這個民眾黨黨團所提出的這個草案他們提出提出來基本上在這個"},{"start":505.092,"end":533.513,"text":"有關自行到場或自願陪同的偵訊過程中他可以擁有人身自由跟通訊自由這個相關規定你有什麼樣的意見這個人身自由這部分如果說不是依法具體逮捕的都是有人身的一個自由這個我們一定要保障的嘛那但是如果說是那個通訊自由的話在偵查中在偵查的他這個自行到場跟自願同行這個算不算在偵查中啊"},{"start":533.933,"end":534.233,"text":"因為民眾黨黨團提案他們"},{"start":553.454,"end":562.584,"text":"他們這個這個所修修改部分最主要就是對於自行到場或自願同行自願同行這部分目前在刑事訴訟法裡面有自願同行這樣沒有這個這個其實就是"},{"start":564.642,"end":590.639,"text":"自刑稻草的一個 自刑稻草有啦 自刑稻草第28條有 但自願同行 自願同行他的我 我不太清楚 他沒有自願他怎麼會起來呢 對自願同行是他總是有定義在法律上 你要定義在法律條文裡面他有定義啊 自願同行跟自刑稻草 自願同行沒有這個用語 沒有這個用語 這個就是一個自刑稻草的一個方式嘛 包含在這裡面嘛"},{"start":592.211,"end":600.62,"text":"所以假設要照這樣修了你認為自願同情就可以刪掉他就是罪羽就對一來法律上目前沒有定義嘛但是自行道場自行道場他"},{"start":606.167,"end":625.693,"text":"現在有關自行到場我們在規定裡面也只有第二百二十八條有所規定那自行到場之後事實上他們還沒有受任何的這個司法的這個這個逮捕或拘提都任何的法律消息所以理論上他自行到場到他真的這個這個"},{"start":627.794,"end":652.441,"text":"有到必須要羈押或者是必須要做處分的之前他這個理論上他應該是擁有百分之百的人身自由跟通訊自由啊這個理論上好像聽起來是有道理的啊部長這個是人身自由是要保障但是如果說有必須要羈押的比較當然檢察會進行的依法來逮捕吧"},{"start":653.955,"end":671.694,"text":"所以這一條規定理論上他都還沒有進入任何處分的程序他當然是理論上應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由通訊自由這個要在偵查中現在我要跟你爭執的是他自願到場之後這個算是偵查了嗎進入偵查"},{"start":673.515,"end":689.846,"text":"如果這樣開庭的話檢查再再啟動那個偵查程序就是在我們在徵訊的時候那是一個秘密的一個那不公開的嘛你是指如果開了偵查庭對跟偵查庭好那他所以開偵查庭之後跟他是否自願到場或是被傳喚"},{"start":692.049,"end":705.534,"text":"這個都沒有關係嗎?這是通訊自由（因為檢察要徵訊要徵訊的話他一定要被告到場那被告到場的話他有行這種方式嗎?我現在要跟你要談的就是因為自願到場自願到場"},{"start":709.025,"end":725.969,"text":"在理論上他確實是在沒有受任何的處分之前他確實是應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由因為他沒有在受任何處分嘛但是我知道說事實上在偵查如果說你進入了偵查的階段那當然這個說還想有通訊自由這個就對偵查會有很大的摯愛啦齁就例如說他就有瞭解了這個偵查的方向"},{"start":735.572,"end":756.305,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":756.906,"end":770.111,"text":"是有這種問題是還是你們還是得解決我剛剛所講的問題就他在未受任何處分之前他當然享有憲法所保障的人身自由跟通訊自由啊所以你如何讓支援到場到我們這個這個做出"},{"start":772.199,"end":799.929,"text":"這是對對對這個這個當事人做出處分之前這樣子的這個這個自行到場的這個法律效力我覺得這部分在等一下我們逐條的時候我想部長你這部分是不是能夠到等一下我們還還是會再再探討這個還一樣同樣的問題就是你現把手保障的人身自由跟通訊自由以及但是跟委員報告就是說當檢查在徵訊的時候那個就通訊自由就要做限制了"},{"start":801.089,"end":827.097,"text":"對,但是這是開始徵訊。那訊問呢?訊問就要限制了。就像我們剛剛委員說老師要上課,上課就不能再打手機。我想這個是這一條修法到時候,我們等一下逐條討論,這一條修法最大的一定癥結就在這裡,就在於憲法保障的通訊自由跟人身自由,你是不是到了你可以限制,你沒有任何處分的情況下是不是可以限制他的問題。好不好,以上。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時）主席，我們請鄭部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["沈委員發惠：司法院是不是也一起上來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["主席：副秘。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘書長好、部長早。畢竟刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院，所以還是要麻煩副秘書長上來一下，但是今天有關刑事訴訟法這些相關的修正案，很大部分可能在執行上面的問題都是法務部。我也看了你們的書面報告，但是基本上看起來，司法院跟法務部對於今天我們這些修正條文的看法跟立場，其實相當接近，但是司法院也把大部分的問題，簡單講就是請法務部斟酌判斷；也就是說，你們認為這是法務部的問題。副秘書長請回，等一下如果有需要你回答的時候再請你上來，你請坐。","部長，今天看起來大部分這幾條修正案都是會牽涉到法務部在偵查及相關執行層面上的一些問題。我大概整理一下，今天有鍾佳濱委員跟台灣民眾黨的提案，這兩個案子裡面所修正的條文，我大概做了一個整理，有三個部分做了調整。第一個，有關特殊強制處分的救濟程序在第一百五十三條之十，鍾佳濱委員有做修正，他主要是加入了警察……"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，警察這部分。"],["沈委員發惠：司法警察的部分，但台灣民眾黨的提案是全條刪除。"],["鄭部長銘謙：刪掉。"],["沈委員發惠：他把特殊強制處分的救濟程序全部回歸到一般的救濟程序，即第四百零四條跟第四百十六條，它大概全部都回歸。另外在第二個部分，有關偵查的兩條規定，一條是偵查中的人身自由跟通訊自由這個部分，另外一條也是刪除，就是有關禁止辯護人在場陳述意見等等這些相關的規定，也是回歸到第四百零六條跟第四百十六條，大概是這樣的看法；因為它回歸，所以在第四百零六條跟第四百十六條的抗告部分做一些調整，是不是這樣？部長，我剛才看今天的修正草案，大概是這樣的內容啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以重點在於說，第一個，有一些部分我們等一下在法案逐條討論的時候，我再跟你討論，但是有一些部分，我覺得應該要談啦！我先談第一百五十三條之十，按照台灣民眾黨的版本把它全條刪除之後，回歸到第四百零六條跟第四百十六條，在第四百零六條跟第四百十六條之後，再加上有關第十一章強制處分專章的相關規定，但是我在這裡面看到一個比較大的問題，這些相關的程序回歸了，但有關第一百五十三條之十第五項授權訂定：「依本章實施調查之方式、所得資料之保存、管理及銷燬、陳報、通知、救濟、監督及其他相關事項之辦法，由司法院會同行政院定之。」這個部分不見了，在回到第四百零六條跟第四百十六條之後，這個部分並沒有過去，也就是如果按照民眾黨的版本，刑事訴訟法所授權你們訂定特殊強制處分取得的資料保存、管理、銷燬、陳報、通知等等，你們要訂定子法的授權來源就不見了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們還是要回復到特殊強制處分專章裡面的授權來訂定子法，那這樣的……"],["沈委員發惠：對，我是說如果這條刪除了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：刪除了就……"],["沈委員發惠：就不見了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["沈委員發惠：你的授權規定就不見了。刑事訴訟法的修正，我們在7月31號公布到今天，兩個多月，對授權訂定的資料保存、管理、銷燬、陳報等相關規定，你們有沒有進度？有沒有在做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：11月30號會完成。"],["沈委員發惠：10月30號會完成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：11月30號。"],["沈委員發惠：在這個過程中，我知道你們其實已經開了好幾次會議在研議了，好像從7月31號公布之後，你們8月13號就有召開有關特殊強制處分相關辦法的諮詢會議，在9月16號又召開了諮詢會議、研修會議，到這個禮拜21號、22號，就是前兩天，你們又召開了特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會議。這個部分，現在有沒有基本的草案，或者是共識出來了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於司法院主政的，整個刑事訴訟法相關的子法，這是司法院；我們本部的話，是通保法那一部分。"],["沈委員發惠：你們是通保法的部分。好，請副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。我們已經有一個初步的草案，整個還在檢核當中，希望這部分更完整，但我們已經有一個初步的了。"],["沈委員發惠：如果在今天會議的最後結果是第一百五十三條之十刪除了，你們這個規定的法源在哪裡？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：授權根據就會不見了，所以我們的報告裡面也想請委員對這部分能夠慎重，因為像這些特殊偵查、科技偵查的成果要怎麼處理，除了大家關切以外，我們參考了其他的國家，其實是非常周密，這要做非常周密地規範，恐怕不能只有一個條文，就是弄到第四百十六條，這麼單純地去處理，像日本是有非常詳密地規範。"],["沈委員發惠：好，就是說現在回歸，讓它跟一般的強制處分程序一樣，我想恐怕對科技偵查的這種特殊強制處分，不管是取得資料的保存等等，這跟一般的強制處分會有滿大的差別，尤其是這一條的法律授權規定被拿掉，我個人認為影響是滿大的，所以這個希望等一下在修法的時候，請本委員會的委員大家對這個部分能夠斟酌考慮。","我剛剛講今天還有很多法條的部分，另外一個，我個人在這邊跟部長來討論，有關第二百二十八條之一，民眾黨黨團所提出的草案，有關自行到場或自願陪同的偵訊過程中，他可以擁有人身自由跟通訊自由，對這個相關的規定，你有什麼樣意見？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對人身自由這部分，如果說不是依法具體逮捕的，都是有人身自由，這個我們必要保障的。"],["沈委員發惠：對！"],["鄭部長銘謙：但如果是通訊自由的話，在偵查中，在偵查的……"],["沈委員發惠：這個自行到場跟自願同行，這個算不算在偵查中？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是就訊的一個方式啦！是接受檢方訊問的一個方式，因為傳喚是檢方依傳票來通知，傳喚他到……"],["沈委員發惠：對，因為這個民眾黨……"],["鄭部長銘謙：自行到場的話，是他自己主動的。"],["沈委員發惠：對，因為民眾黨黨團提案所修改的部分，最主要就是對於自行到場或自願同行，在目前的刑事訴訟法裡面有自願同行這樣子的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有！這個其實就是自行到場的一個……"],["沈委員發惠：自行到場有啦！自行到場第二百二十八條有了，但自願同行……"],["鄭部長銘謙：自願同行就是……"],["沈委員發惠：但是自願同行，我不太清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：自願嘛！他沒有自願，他怎麼會一起來呢？有經過他的同意……"],["沈委員發惠：對，自願同行，在法律上總是有其定義，你要訂定在法律條文裡面，它要有定義啊！自願同行跟自行到場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實自願同行沒有這個用語。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有這個用語？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是一個自行到場的方式，包含在這裡面嘛。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以這個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個不是拘提到案，也不是傳的。"],["沈委員發惠：假設要照這樣修了，你認為自願同行就可以刪掉，它就是贅語就對了，因為它在法律上目前沒有定義嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，他本來就是自行到場嘛！"],["沈委員發惠：現在有關自行到場，我們在規定裡面也只有第二百二十八條有所規定，自行到場之後，事實上他們還沒有受任何司法的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：逮捕或拘提。"],["沈委員發惠：任何的法律效力，所以理論上他自行到場，到他真的必須要羈押，或者是必須要做處分之前，理論上，他應該是擁有百分之百的人身自由跟通訊自由啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：人身自由，這個是要保障啦！"],["沈委員發惠：這個理論上好像聽起來是有道理的啊！部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個人身自由是要保障，但是如果有羈押的必要，當然檢察官會依法來逮捕嘛！"],["沈委員發惠：對！所以這一條規定，他都還沒有進入任何處分的程序，當然在理論上他應該擁有……"],["鄭部長銘謙：人身自由。"],["沈委員發惠：人身自由跟通訊自由啊！因為他現在沒有……"],["鄭部長銘謙：通訊自由，這個要在偵查中……"],["沈委員發惠：現在我要跟你爭執的，他在自願到場之後，算是進入偵查了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果現在他開庭的話，檢察官再啟動偵查程序，就是我們在偵訊的時候，那是一個秘密的、不公開的嘛！"],["沈委員發惠：你是指如果開了偵查庭？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，開偵查庭。"],["沈委員發惠：好，所以開偵查庭之後，跟他是否自願到場，或者是被傳喚，這都沒有關係嗎？就是他的通訊自由……"],["鄭部長銘謙：開偵查庭，因為檢察官要偵訊的話，一定要被告到場，當被告到場的話，他有……"],["沈委員發惠：部長，我時間到了。我現在要跟你談的就是，因為自願到場在理論上，在沒有受任何的處分之前，他確實是應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由，因為他沒有受任何處分嘛！但是我知道說事實上在偵查……如果說你進入了偵查的階段，還享有通訊自由，對偵查會有很大的窒礙啦！例如說他就了解了偵查的方向跟……"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查內容。"],["沈委員發惠：偵查內容重點，如果通訊自由，他就有可能有串供，透過通訊串供或者是通知共犯，或者是相關的其他的湮滅證據等等，這樣子透過通訊來進行。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，像詐團的話，我們發現有這種情形。"],["沈委員發惠：對，是有這種情形，問題是你們還是得解決我剛剛所講的這個問題，就是他在未受任何處分之前，他當然享有憲法所保障的人身自由跟通訊自由，所以如何對當事人做出處分之前自行到場的法律效力，我覺得這個部分在等一下我們逐條的時候，我想部長這個部分是不是能夠……等一下我們還是會再探討同樣的問題，就是憲法所保障的人身自由跟通訊自由……"],["鄭部長銘謙：人身自由我是覺得要保障，但是跟委員報告，當檢察在偵訊的時候，通訊自由就要做限制了。"],["沈委員發惠：對，但是這是開始偵訊，那訊問呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：訊問就要限制了，就像剛才委員有說老師要上課，上課就不能再打手機。"],["沈委員發惠：我想我們等一下逐條討論，這條修法最大的癥結一定就在這裡，就在於憲法所保障的通訊自由跟人身自由，你沒有任何處分的情況下是不是可以限制他的問題，好不好？以上。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請羅智強委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}