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劉主委"},{"start":28.56,"end":42.668,"text":"主委長我想這個議題是全世界的問題因為就像主委所說的它其實會造成我們的第一出生率其實有很多因素那我們現在就要去盤整"},{"start":44.049,"end":67.204,"text":"盤整說造成這些因素的原因那其實有時候我們在談這個議題我自己也是製造這個低出生率的原因之一因為我們都是單身那表示單身的女性也越來越多那單身的女性越來越多再加上這一個所謂雙薪家庭他會認為他的壓力過大"},{"start":70.441,"end":83.93,"text":"他當要養一個小孩在養父母親他會覺得他的壓力過大所以這也是為什麼我們要提升所謂的長照從2.0到3.0從民進黨執政小英總統從300億到600億到明年預算已經到927億了就是這長照的部分也就是我們政府來幫他照顧爸爸媽媽"},{"start":94.877,"end":114.774,"text":"讓他無後顧之憂而能夠把他的心力轉嫁在小孩子身上否則對於一個雙薪家庭確實照顧小孩在照顧到自己的長輩壓力確實很大而且他要照顧的可能是四個人可能是四個人"},{"start":116.26,"end":142.457,"text":"所以在這樣的一個前提之下我們不斷的架構所有周邊的一個環境因素然後把這些環境因素減輕他們的壓力再回歸到所謂生小孩的議題那生小孩的議題我們也知道卓榮泰院長日前宣布說我們要落實0到6歲國家養的政策明年度要編列1082億的預算"},{"start":146.772,"end":151.898,"text":"那其實我為什麼會強調這個就遺憾的是當我們在討論這個議題的時候我們不論是在長照3.0我們明年編了927億還是在0到6歲國家養的政策明年度編1082億不好意思"},{"start":168.062,"end":196.408,"text":"這個預算現在還在空中飛因為它進不了我們的討論範圍裡面現在被擋住要被退回所以其實我們一直講的是你沒有預算來協助沒有減輕這些我們年輕一輩的壓力大家寧可選擇就是不去碰觸這個議題不要去生育"},{"start":198.021,"end":219.306,"text":"所以你看我們在之前我們在所有國防會的資料裡面所看到的是我們不論做了很多的補助從托兒、托育到幼兒的補助基本上我們到2024年到目前為止我們的生育率還是一樣只有0.86"},{"start":221.638,"end":246.548,"text":"就零點八六欸,低於一欸,但是這一段時間我們有沒有在做?有,如果沒有做了這些,可能生育率更低啊,是不是?可是另外一個方向大家會講說,啊有做嘛,但是這叫一向是正面思考,一向是負面思考。我們要講的如果沒有做這些動作,有可能生育率更低。"},{"start":247.489,"end":270.767,"text":"年輕人、年輕朋友對政府越沒有信賴感越不敢生小孩所以可能會更低所以依照我們國發會自己所提供的資料你們在未來評估也都是低於一耶沒錯也是都低於一耶那我們到底有什麼政策再來"},{"start":272.506,"end":298.363,"text":"我們所呈現的新生兒的人數依照人數比例人數來講2040年你們的預估是有可能低於10萬我們2024是新生兒人數就只有目前為止是13.1萬目前為止那如果再預估到2040是會低於10萬這數字是非常可怕的"},{"start":303.499,"end":330.147,"text":"所以主委我們到底怎麼做我們該做的我們要再做那現在陳時中政委他有提出一個方向說政府是否可以嚴明育兒補助獎勵措施一個寶貝一個寶寶每個月補助三萬育兒補助你認為這個建議如何"},{"start":333.651,"end":338.389,"text":"這個可以紓解年輕人對於養育小孩的壓力"},{"start":339.622,"end":366.411,"text":"我覺得這是好的方向除了這個以外我們現在希望他們可以優先取得社宅那第二個事情再來是我們希望協助他對照顧父母的壓力也紓解掉當然社宅是解決他住房的壓力居住的壓力叫居住正義那當有居住正義之後當有安定的一個家他才會去思考我是不是可以"},{"start":367.071,"end":391.395,"text":"有機會去照顧我的下一代如果他居無定所當然就不會去思考我要去養育下一代所以這是聯動的所以從社會住宅從居住正義讓我們的年輕一輩可以有一個好的居住環境讓他去思考他可以再去養育下一代"},{"start":392.225,"end":414.878,"text":"所以這是連帶的那現在所提出的包括我所講的從居住然後再長照幫他照顧爸爸媽媽然後減輕他這一塊的壓力那麼我們如果在所謂的育兒的這一個部分一個小孩每個月補助三萬"},{"start":417.018,"end":431.119,"text":"這當然是試算了這還沒有一個精確的就是說這個陳時中政委也說這只是一個試算出來的一個數目但是起碼如果我們現在其實我們補助都不是齊頭式的啦"},{"start":432.34,"end":461.32,"text":"現在我們對於育兒的部分從托育、托兒因為他還有所謂的可能你如果是公幼非營利他就一種補助然後如果是準公共化又是另外所以他是不一樣的然後育兒津貼又是另外一個部分所以計算起來其實大家不一定是有那麼多的7000到13500對不是那麼齊頭式那麼如果是這樣子的話陳時中政委所提出的"},{"start":462.941,"end":479.84,"text":"這個就是屬於齊頭式的就是一個寶寶就是每個月補助三萬讓你去支應小孩子可能要去支應的部分這就一個不同的一個變革跟我們現在的思考邏輯又有點不同"},{"start":480.06,"end":481.761,"text":"兼職委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":498.669,"end":516.107,"text":"所以這是其中一個方案還是比較已經有focus焦點的方案是好幾個方案裡面的其中一個方案還是大家討論完之後這個方案不錯只是現在在找裁員我們其實討論四個方案但是裁員真的有限"},{"start":516.647,"end":531.621,"text":"如果…當然我有建議提特別預算的概念因為這是一國家大事如果能有特別預算來專程解決這個問題可能對國家比較有利所以主委因為你這一個方案這一個是算是一次喔就是一個小寶貝就是"},{"start":533.283,"end":535.864,"text":"每個月補助3萬元每個月補助3萬元每個月補助3萬元"},{"start":561.915,"end":563.435,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":580.2,"end":594.67,"text":"有因不夠,大家還是覺得說壓力很大,所以乾脆我們就一次在這個育兒補助獎勵一個小孩每個月補助3萬元,這個方向其實是比較能夠讓大家有期待。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時20分）謝謝召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委早。我想這個議題是全世界的問題，就像主委所說的，造成我們的低出生率其實有很多因素，我們現在就要去盤整造成這些因素的原因。有時候我們在談這個議題，我自己也是製造低出生率的原因之一，因為我們都是單身，表示單身的女性也越來越多，再加上所謂雙薪家庭，他會認為他的壓力過大，當要養一個小孩，再養父母親，他會覺得他的壓力過大。所以這也是為什麼我們要提升所謂的長照從2.0到3.0，從民進黨執政，小英總統把經費從300億提高到600億，明年的預算就已經來到927億了，就是長照的部分，也就是我們政府來幫他照顧爸爸媽媽，讓他無後顧之憂，而能夠把他的心力轉嫁在小孩子身上，否則對於一個雙薪家庭，要照顧小孩，再照顧到自己的長輩，壓力確實很大，而且他要照顧的可能有4個人。所以，在這樣的一個前提之下，我們不斷的架構所有周邊的環境因素，然後讓這些環境因素可以減輕他們的壓力，再回歸到所謂生小孩的議題。","關於生小孩的議題，我們也知道，卓榮泰院長日前宣布我們要落實0到6歲國家養的政策，明年度要編列1,082億的預算，我為什麼會強調這個？遺憾的是，當我們討論這個議題的時候，不論是在長照3.0我們明年編了927億，還是在0-6歲國家養的政策，明年度編了1,082億，不好意思，這個預算現在還在空中飛，因為它進不了我們的討論範圍裡面，即現在被擋住，要被退回。","所以，我們一直講的是，沒有預算來協助，沒有減輕這些年輕一輩的壓力，大家寧可選擇不去碰觸這個議題，不要去生育。在之前國發會所有的資料裡面所看到的是，我們不論做了很多的補助，從托兒、托育到幼兒的補助，基本上，到2024年、到目前為止，我們的生育率還是一樣，只有0.86，低於1，但是這一段時間，我們有沒有在做？有，如果沒有做這些，可能生育率更低，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是另外一個方向，大家會講說，有做也只是這樣，但是這叫一向是正面思考，一向是負面思考，我們要講的是，如果沒有做這些動作，有可能生育率更低。年輕人、年輕朋友對政府越沒有信賴感，越不敢生小孩，所以可能會更低，依照國發會所提供的資料，你們對未來的評估也都是低於1。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：也是都低於1，那我們到底有什麼政策？","再來，我們所呈現的新生兒人數，先不看比例，依照人數來講，2040年你們的預估是有可能低於10萬，我們2024年到目前為止新生兒人數就只有13.1萬，如果再預估到2040年，是會低於10萬，這個數字是非常可怕的，所以主委，我們到底要怎麼做？該做的我們要再做，而現在陳時中政委有提出一個方向，政府是否可以研擬育兒補助獎勵措施，一個寶貝、一個寶寶每個月補助3萬育兒補助，你認為這個建議如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個可以紓解年輕人對於養育小孩的壓力。"],["陳委員亭妃：你覺得是好的方向？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我覺得這是好的方向，除了這個以外，我們現在也希望他們可以優先取得社宅，這是第二個事情。再來，我們希望協助他，讓他照顧父母的壓力也可以紓解掉，從這三個方面下手。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然社宅是解決他住房的壓力、居住的壓力，這叫居住正義，當有居住正義之後，當有安定的一個家之後，他才會去思考我是不是可以有機會去照顧我的下一代。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果他居無定所，當然就不會去思考我要去養育下一代。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是連動的，所以從社會住宅，從居住正義，讓我們的年輕一輩可以有一個好的居住環境，讓他去思考他可以再去養育下一代，所以這是連帶的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在所提出的，包括我所講的從居住，然後再到長照，幫他照顧爸爸媽媽，減輕他這一塊的壓力，那麼我們如果在所謂育兒這一個部分，一個小孩每個月補助3萬，這當然是試算，還沒有一個精確的數目，陳時中政委也說，這只是一個試算出來的數目。但是起碼我們現在的補助都不是齊頭式的，現在我們對育兒的部分，從托育、托兒，因為還有所謂公幼、非營利，它就是一種補助，然後如果是準公共化，又是另外一種，所以它是不一樣的，然後育兒津貼又是另外一個部分，所以計算起來，其實大家不定是有那麼多的金額。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：7,000到1萬3,500。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，不是那麼齊頭式，如果是這樣子的話，陳時中政委所提出的補助就是屬於齊頭式的，一個寶寶就是每個月補助3萬，讓你去支應小孩子可能要去支應的部分，這就是一個不同的變革，跟我們現在的思考邏輯又有點不同。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，這個我們私下都有討論到，我們也試算了預算，當然到時候希望提出來之後，能夠得到大院的支持。"],["陳委員亭妃：你覺得這個現在成熟的程度是到什麼程度？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在我們其實談了幾個方案，但都還是在尋找財源的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這是其中一個方案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。我覺得……"],["陳委員亭妃：還是比較、已經有focus、焦點的方案？是好幾個方案裡面的其中一個方案，還是大家討論完之後，覺得這個方案不錯，只是現在在找財源？這個意義是不同的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們其實討論了4個方案，但是財源真的有限，當然我有建議、提出特別預算的概念，因為這是一個國家大事，如果能有特別預算專程解決這個問題，可能對國家比較有利，但是現在還沒有定論。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你這個方案算是一次喔！就是一個小寶貝每個月補助3萬。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是每年的支出，是很驚人的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，沒錯，所以這等於是涵蓋了所有，不論你有幾個方案，其實這個是最終一個、最完整的，其他的我都不講了，這是一個齊頭式的，反正一個小孩就是每個月補助3萬塊，就是0到6歲。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是這個金額就是每個月要390億，然後還要乘以12個月。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我覺得我們應該就長遠性來思考。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以才會思考各種的財源。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，應該長遠性的朝這個方向，而不是說有不一樣的補助方式，其實湊一湊對於家長來講，可以讓他有這樣的心願意去生小孩……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員亭妃：其實誘因不夠。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個誘因不強。"],["陳委員亭妃：大家還是覺得說壓力很大，所以乾脆我們就一次在這個育兒補助獎勵中，一個小孩每個月補助3萬元，這個方向其實是比較能夠讓大家有期待的，這個再拜託主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我再跟他多討論。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，主委請回座。下一位質詢請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}