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佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":331.318,"end":339.844,"text":"行為時﹑審理時﹑執行時﹑執行的部分可能是法務部這一邊但是我們都有跟司法精神醫學會那目前我們也建置了一些精神鑑定的一些的專家的這些資料庫那希望說將來將來如果真的案件需要的時候"},{"start":357.915,"end":360.237,"text":"那能夠由這一些人去執行也得到不便不悔。"},{"start":377.951,"end":395.798,"text":"你如何來科學去鑑定說這個絕對鑑定出來的是這個與事實相符就被告的抗辯是成立的如果我現在假設一個例子假設我們在這個行為的時候是一個鑑定醫師"},{"start":397.738,"end":407.105,"text":"在這個審判的時候是一個鑑定醫師然後在執行的時候又是不同的鑑定醫師三個階段都是不同的鑑定的醫師來做鑑定"},{"start":409.434,"end":435.686,"text":"那結果這個醫師最後他鑑定說最後他在執行的時候說我現在已經喪失心神能力了我完全不懂得我現在執行的效果這個是什麼就是他去抗辯這樣子那我們如果最後醫師鑑定說他在最後一個階段他已經喪失心神能力那這個醫師推翻他之前的一個鑑定這時候到底要採信他的最後一次的鑑定"},{"start":436.98,"end":460.813,"text":"還是說我們要再做另外更精準的鑑定如何來實務上如何來操作跟委員報告執行階段的這個受刑能力受刑狀況能力的這個鑑定跟審理的時候這個鑑定恐怕不同層次那跟委員報告我們之前確實有跟司法精神醫學會他們去做過一些溝通聯繫他們也就針對"},{"start":461.894,"end":479.251,"text":"委員所垂涎的這些問題以他們那個精神精神精神醫學專業的立場他們有去嘗試去做區分所以這部分這部分委員擔心的這些問題我們相信我們會跟那個精神醫學界他們現在已經在做已經在做研議"},{"start":481.013,"end":508.012,"text":"所以我是我個人的一個感觸就是說大法官對於這個死刑的一個判決對於有沒有金帳這一個部分他去做一個關卡的一個限定實際上真的造成不管是我們檢察官或者我們的法官在這個判決的時候呢真的很大的困擾如果假設我再假設如果是不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定那到底要採信誰的"},{"start":510.27,"end":537.871,"text":"要採信誰的每一個階段不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定所以被告是很狡猾的我要告訴你們這一點如何的科學的來去判斷說這個人是不是真的精神障礙這一點還是請不管是法務部或者是我們司法院要研擬出更好的一個對策跟你剛才講的什麼精神醫學會是不是"},{"start":539.977,"end":560.198,"text":"司法精神醫學會做更細密的一個討論尤其這個憲判制第三號出來之後我覺得真的如果你沒有做詳細的討論未來所有的被告都會做這方面的一個抗辯好這對被害的家屬非常的不公平好那接下來我們是不是請那個部長你們都請回請那個總長一下"},{"start":571.156,"end":594.526,"text":"好,總長,我長話短說,時間也差不多。我想剛才黃國昌委員針對台演綠能的這個案子,他也垂詢很多。其實我們比較納悶的,因為今天最新的一個報告就是說昨天檢方生壓嘛,然後今天凌晨這些一干被告全部生壓被駁回嘛。那被駁回,那我們檢察官是不是會提抗告?"},{"start":596.873,"end":614.993,"text":"當然的一定會提抗告嘛就是說我們那他們這個案子黃國昌講說他在去年年初就已經去揭發這個弊案當然檢察官一直查查查查到今年大概隔了一年七個月到今年十月就是前幾天十月二十二日"},{"start":615.513,"end":633.42,"text":"才發動搜索才發動偵查然後把相關的人士接我們不管是DRG什麼都一連串的大動作來聚約談相關的人士然後最後昨天就申請生涯但是卻被駁回駁回的原因總長知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":634.68,"end":659.107,"text":"法院認為什麽?他具體的原因為什麽駁圍?報告委員因為今天早上來我還來不及仔細看但是我知道他們那個有就陸東委員所垂詢的我們那個檢察官會提出抗告但內容我還沒有今天早上一直在這裡面還來不及看是我剛才看一下罪證不足所以這很諷刺啊一個案子調查那麽久最後罪證不足要生壓罪證不足"},{"start":660.327,"end":679.126,"text":"所以我們還是要去這個跟 報告因為地院法官的看法有時候每個地方法院又都不太一樣另外這個二省的法官的看法也有他們的見解所以接下來接下來案情的發展總統我最後要講就我希望這個案子因為這個"},{"start":680.919,"end":704.166,"text":"如果從整個報導來看的話或者相關的訊息來看的話這種我們國營事業的子公司竟然這麼大的一個弊案有說知情人士講說水很深所以我希望我們這個家官能夠就這案子不管涉及的層級多高水多深一定徹查到底"},{"start":705.546,"end":706.186,"text":"總統有沒有信心?"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:28:23+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:28:24+08:00","text":"好，謝謝召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:28:24+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:28:25+08:00","text":"先請部長好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T10:28:25+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:28:26+08:00","text":"好，麻煩部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:28:24.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:29:05.873000+08:00","text":"部長，我想延續一下羅智強有關廢死的議題，最近有一部金鐘獎最佳迷你劇集叫做「八尺門的辯護人」，部長知道這部劇的故事背景嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:29:07.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:29:09.022000+08:00","text":"這裡面有寫，就是在……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:29:10.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:29:12.024000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你講知不知道就好了。知道。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:29:12.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:29:53.202000+08:00","text":"我要提的是這個男主角有一句經典的臺詞，他提到「偏誤的精神鑑定會導出錯誤的事實，也無法精準判斷教化的可能性」，這句話非常經典，這句話印證、也很明確的指出精神鑑定是否有嚴格的科學基準，對於死刑判決會產生非常重大、不一樣的判決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:29:54.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:30:40.621000+08:00","text":"我想大法官的憲法法庭所做成的113年度憲判字第8號這個判決裡面對死刑有三道關卡，尤其對精神障礙的部分，這三道關卡包含在偵審的時候，還有在執行的時候，還有一個就是如果他在整個判決的過程中有精神障礙或其他心智缺陷，當他有這樣的一個情況的時候，在任何一個階段我們都沒有辦法把他判決死刑。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:30:41.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:10.018000+08:00","text":"所以對於精神障礙者在訴訟的過程中或者判決確定在最後要執行的時候，如果他說他有精神障礙，就都不會被判決死刑或不會被執行死刑，所以精神鑑定會導致出錯誤的事實，也無法精準判斷教化的可能性，這一點部長你同意嗎？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:11.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:15.376000+08:00","text":"這個劇的啟示，男主角提到這句話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:15.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:28.744000+08:00","text":"的確，八尺門的編文提的這句話是令人省思，但是委員關心的就是憲判意旨中行為時跟審理時的那個……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:28.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:30.405000+08:00","text":"對，還有執行時。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:31.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:36.248000+08:00","text":"還有執行時，我想這個根據憲判意旨，那個用詞是不太一樣，那個行為時是要臨床醫學的評估跟鑑定，另外那個審理時他是用鑑定。是。","quality":0.463},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:36.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:46.786000+08:00","text":"我想這個標準應該是……我的理解，我是不曉得，這要問司法院，依我理解是一致的。好，那……","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:46.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:31:57.324000+08:00","text":"另外在執行部分那個標準就比較……憲判例意旨是說對判決死刑的理由，那個判決死刑以及對執行，如果欠缺一般人的應有的理解能力，這樣就沒辦法，他是用受刑的資料，這個標準是不一樣的。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:31:57.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:32:07.862000+08:00","text":"對，標準不一樣，但是由誰來鑑定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-24T10:32:07.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:32:18.400000+08:00","text":"我們認為規劃還是要由精神科醫師來規劃，做一個評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:32:18.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:32:28.938000+08:00","text":"就一定是要醫生來鑑定，所以待會兒就會產生問題嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:32:28.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:33:20.160000+08:00","text":"我先請問副秘書長，這句話可能就會產生我們未來在精神鑑定的時候，如果是三個階段，行為時、或者在訴訟的過程中、或者是在執行的時候，被告或受刑人提出他現在就是完全不理解執行的效果是什麼、死刑的效果是什麼，或者他在偵審的時候提出他根本對整個審判程序、偵查程序也不理解，或者行為時說他那時候就已經是毫無意識去殺了人，他做出這種抗辯，那我們做精神鑑定的時候，當然剛才部長講是請精神科的鑑定醫師來做鑑定，司法院實際上在訴訟審判的實務上是怎麼樣子來做相關的一個鑑定？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-24T10:33:20.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:33:38.737000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實長期以來審判過程中在精神鑑定部分，個案當然由個案的法官去斟酌哪邊有鑑定的資源，但是在制度上面我們都有跟司法精神醫學會，他們是有系統性的去建置精神鑑定的量能。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-24T10:33:38.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:34:22.597000+08:00","text":"因應這次憲判出來，大法官設定了三個階段，剛才委員也有垂詢的，包含行為時、審理時、執行時，跟我們司法院法官比較相關的可能就是行為時他的精神狀況還有審理中的精神狀況，執行的部分可能是法務部這一邊，但是我們都有跟司法精神醫學會，目前我們也建置了一些精神鑑定專家的資料庫，希望將來如果真的案件需要的時候能夠由這些人去……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:34:22.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:34:23.597000+08:00","text":"好，副秘書長，我大概了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:34:22.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:34:51.135000+08:00","text":"其實我們一個最大的疑問就是，因為今天大法官設下這樣三道死刑的關卡，就會造成未來不管是在偵查或者在審判或在執行的時候會有一個非常大的不確定性，就是你如何去科學鑑定說鑑定出來的這個是絕對與事實相符、也就是被告的抗辯是成立的？","quality":0.314},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:34:52.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:35:23.839000+08:00","text":"如果我現在假設一個例子，假設我們在行為的時候是一個鑑定醫師，在審判的時候是一個鑑定醫師，然後在執行的時候又是不同的鑑定醫師，三個階段是不同的醫師來做鑑定，結果這個醫師最後的鑑定是他在執行的時候已經喪失心神能力了，他完全不懂得他現在執行的效果是什麼。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:35:23.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:35:43.262000+08:00","text":"他就是這樣子去抗辯，那如果最後醫師鑑定說他在最後一個階段已經喪失心神能力，這個醫師推翻之前對他的鑑定，這時候到底要採信他的最後一次的鑑定、還是我們要再做另外更精準的鑑定？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:35:44.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:35:45.723000+08:00","text":"實務上如何來操作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-24T10:35:48.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:36:22.231000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，執行階段的受刑狀況能力的鑑定跟審理的鑑定恐怕不同層次，跟委員報告，我們之前確實有跟司法精神醫學會做過一些溝通聯繫，他們也針對委員所垂詢的這些問題以他們精神醫學專業的立場嘗試去做區分，所以這部分委員擔心的這些問題我們相信會跟精神醫學界……他們現在已經在做研擬了。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:36:24.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:36:45.588000+08:00","text":"其實副秘，所以這是我個人的一個感觸，大法官對於死刑的判決對於有沒有精障這個部分去做一個關卡的限定，實際上真的造成不管是檢察官或者法官在判決的時候很大的困擾。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:36:46.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:36:50.992000+08:00","text":"我再假設，如果是不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定，那到底要採信誰的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:36:53.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:36:53.991000+08:00","text":"要採信誰的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:36:55.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:04.899000+08:00","text":"每一個階段不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定，被告是很狡猾的，我要告訴你們這一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:04.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:10.963000+08:00","text":"要如何科學的去判斷這個人是不是真的精神障礙？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:10.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:20.851000+08:00","text":"這一點還是請不管是法務部或者是司法院要研擬出更好的一個對策，跟你剛才講的什麼精神醫學會，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃副秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:22.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:24.559000+08:00","text":"司法精神醫學會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:24.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:39.834000+08:00","text":"跟司法精神醫學會做更細密的一個討論，尤其這個憲判字第8號出來之後，我覺得真的如果你沒有做詳細的討論，未來所有的被告都會做這方面的一個抗辯，這對被害人的家屬非常的不公平。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:40.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:42.817000+08:00","text":"好，部長你們都請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:42.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:43.058000+08:00","text":"接下來請總長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:43.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:37:55.337000+08:00","text":"好，請總長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:37:55.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:38:19.873000+08:00","text":"總長，我長話短說，時間也差不多了，我想剛才黃國昌委員針對台鹽綠能的這個案子也垂詢很多，其實我們比較納悶，因為今天最新的一個報告就是昨天檢方聲押，然後今天凌晨這些一干被告的聲押全部被駁回，被駁回我們檢察官是不是會提抗告？當然。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:38:20.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:38:56.420000+08:00","text":"一定會提抗告嘛，我們就是納悶，黃國昌說他在去年年初就已經去揭發這個弊案，當然檢察官一直查查查，查到今天大概隔了1年7個月，到今年10月、就是前幾天10月22日才發動搜索、才發動偵查，然後不管調查局什麼單位一連串的大動作約談相關的人士，最後昨天就申請聲押，但是卻被駁回，駁回的原因總長你知道是什麼嗎？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:38:57.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:38:58.200000+08:00","text":"法院認為什麼？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:38:59.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:00.221000+08:00","text":"具體的原因為什麼駁回？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:00.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:11.444000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為今天早上來這裡，我還來不及仔細看，但是我知道他們那個……就如同委員所垂詢的，我們檢察官會提出抗告，但內容我還沒有……今天早上一直在這裡，我還來不及看。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:11.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:13.725000+08:00","text":"是，我剛才看一下，是罪證不足。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:15.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:16.465000+08:00","text":"所以這很諷刺啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:17.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:22.087000+08:00","text":"一個案子調查那麼久，最後要聲押卻罪證不足。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:23.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:25.710000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是要去這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:26.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:39:38.863000+08:00","text":"報告，因為地院法官的看法有時候每個地方法院都不太一樣，另外二審的法官的看法也有他們的見解，所以接下來要看案情的發展。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:39:39.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:09.166000+08:00","text":"總長，我最後要講，我希望這個案子，因為如果從整個報導或者相關的訊息來看的話，我們國營事業的子公司竟然有這麼大的一個弊案，有知情人士講說水很深，所以我希望我們檢察官能夠就這個案子不管涉及的層級多高、水多深一定要徹查到底，總長有沒有信心？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:09.666000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:10.808857+08:00","text":"委員，當然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:11.108857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:23.680286+08:00","text":"國營事業的財產就是全民的財產，也是我們檢察官的財產，是全國人民的，當然我們檢察官一定會戮力以赴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:23.980286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:31.694571+08:00","text":"是，所以我希望這個案子一定要查個水落石出，不能有任何的護短。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:31.994571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:32.994571+08:00","text":"是，當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:33.294571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:34.723143+08:00","text":"好，以上。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邢檢察總長泰釗","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:35.023143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:36.166000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:36.466000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:37.466000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-24T10:40:37.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-24T10:40:41.480286+08:00","text":"下一位請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時28分）好，謝謝召委。先請部長好了。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想延續一下羅智強有關廢死的議題，最近有一部金鐘獎最佳迷你劇集叫做「八尺門的辯護人」，部長知道這部劇的故事背景嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面有寫，就是在……"],["林委員思銘：沒關係，你講知不知道就好了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：知道。"],["林委員思銘：我要提的是這個男主角有一句經典的臺詞，他提到「偏誤的精神鑑定會導出錯誤的事實，也無法精準判斷教化的可能性」，這句話非常經典，這句話印證、也很明確的指出精神鑑定是否有嚴格的科學基準，對於死刑判決會產生非常重大、不一樣的判決。我想大法官的憲法法庭所做成的113年度憲判字第8號這個判決裡面對死刑有三道關卡，尤其對精神障礙的部分，這三道關卡包含在偵審的時候，還有在執行的時候，還有一個就是如果他在整個判決的過程中有精神障礙或其他心智缺陷，當他有這樣的一個情況的時候，在任何一個階段我們都沒有辦法把他判決死刑。所以對於精神障礙者在訴訟的過程中或者判決確定在最後要執行的時候，如果他說他有精神障礙，就都不會被判決死刑或不會被執行死刑，所以精神鑑定會導致出錯誤的事實，也無法精準判斷教化的可能性，這一點部長你同意嗎？這個劇的啟示，男主角提到這句話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確，八尺門的編文提的這句話是令人省思，但是委員關心的就是憲判意旨中行為時跟審理時的那個……"],["林委員思銘：對，還有執行時。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有執行時，我想這個根據憲判意旨，那個用詞是不太一樣，那個行為時是要臨床醫學的評估跟鑑定，另外那個審理時他是用鑑定。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個標準應該是……我的理解，我是不曉得，這要問司法院，依我理解是一致的。"],["林委員思銘：好，那……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外在執行部分那個標準就比較……憲判例意旨是說對判決死刑的理由，那個判決死刑以及對執行，如果欠缺一般人的應有的理解能力，這樣就沒辦法，他是用受刑的資料，這個標準是不一樣的。"],["林委員思銘：對，標準不一樣，但是由誰來鑑定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為規劃還是要由精神科醫師來規劃，做一個評估。"],["林委員思銘：就一定是要醫生來鑑定，所以待會兒就會產生問題嘛。我先請問副秘書長，這句話可能就會產生我們未來在精神鑑定的時候，如果是三個階段，行為時、或者在訴訟的過程中、或者是在執行的時候，被告或受刑人提出他現在就是完全不理解執行的效果是什麼、死刑的效果是什麼，或者他在偵審的時候提出他根本對整個審判程序、偵查程序也不理解，或者行為時說他那時候就已經是毫無意識去殺了人，他做出這種抗辯，那我們做精神鑑定的時候，當然剛才部長講是請精神科的鑑定醫師來做鑑定，司法院實際上在訴訟審判的實務上是怎麼樣子來做相關的一個鑑定？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實長期以來審判過程中在精神鑑定部分，個案當然由個案的法官去斟酌哪邊有鑑定的資源，但是在制度上面我們都有跟司法精神醫學會，他們是有系統性的去建置精神鑑定的量能。因應這次憲判出來，大法官設定了三個階段，剛才委員也有垂詢的，包含行為時、審理時、執行時，跟我們司法院法官比較相關的可能就是行為時他的精神狀況還有審理中的精神狀況，執行的部分可能是法務部這一邊，但是我們都有跟司法精神醫學會，目前我們也建置了一些精神鑑定專家的資料庫，希望將來如果真的案件需要的時候能夠由這些人去……"],["林委員思銘：好，副秘書長，我大概了解。其實我們一個最大的疑問就是，因為今天大法官設下這樣三道死刑的關卡，就會造成未來不管是在偵查或者在審判或在執行的時候會有一個非常大的不確定性，就是你如何去科學鑑定說鑑定出來的這個是絕對與事實相符、也就是被告的抗辯是成立的？如果我現在假設一個例子，假設我們在行為的時候是一個鑑定醫師，在審判的時候是一個鑑定醫師，然後在執行的時候又是不同的鑑定醫師，三個階段是不同的醫師來做鑑定，結果這個醫師最後的鑑定是他在執行的時候已經喪失心神能力了，他完全不懂得他現在執行的效果是什麼。他就是這樣子去抗辯，那如果最後醫師鑑定說他在最後一個階段已經喪失心神能力，這個醫師推翻之前對他的鑑定，這時候到底要採信他的最後一次的鑑定、還是我們要再做另外更精準的鑑定？實務上如何來操作？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，執行階段的受刑狀況能力的鑑定跟審理的鑑定恐怕不同層次，跟委員報告，我們之前確實有跟司法精神醫學會做過一些溝通聯繫，他們也針對委員所垂詢的這些問題以他們精神醫學專業的立場嘗試去做區分，所以這部分委員擔心的這些問題我們相信會跟精神醫學界……他們現在已經在做研擬了。"],["林委員思銘：其實副秘，所以這是我個人的一個感觸，大法官對於死刑的判決對於有沒有精障這個部分去做一個關卡的限定，實際上真的造成不管是檢察官或者法官在判決的時候很大的困擾。我再假設，如果是不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定，那到底要採信誰的？要採信誰的？每一個階段不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定，被告是很狡猾的，我要告訴你們這一點。要如何科學的去判斷這個人是不是真的精神障礙？這一點還是請不管是法務部或者是司法院要研擬出更好的一個對策，跟你剛才講的什麼精神醫學會，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：司法精神醫學會。"],["林委員思銘：跟司法精神醫學會做更細密的一個討論，尤其這個憲判字第8號出來之後，我覺得真的如果你沒有做詳細的討論，未來所有的被告都會做這方面的一個抗辯，這對被害人的家屬非常的不公平。好，部長你們都請回。","接下來請總長。"],["主席：好，請總長。"],["林委員思銘：總長，我長話短說，時間也差不多了，我想剛才黃國昌委員針對台鹽綠能的這個案子也垂詢很多，其實我們比較納悶，因為今天最新的一個報告就是昨天檢方聲押，然後今天凌晨這些一干被告的聲押全部被駁回，被駁回我們檢察官是不是會提抗告？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：當然。"],["林委員思銘：一定會提抗告嘛，我們就是納悶，黃國昌說他在去年年初就已經去揭發這個弊案，當然檢察官一直查查查，查到今天大概隔了1年7個月，到今年10月、就是前幾天10月22日才發動搜索、才發動偵查，然後不管調查局什麼單位一連串的大動作約談相關的人士，最後昨天就申請聲押，但是卻被駁回，駁回的原因總長你知道是什麼嗎？法院認為什麼？具體的原因為什麼駁回？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：報告委員，因為今天早上來這裡，我還來不及仔細看，但是我知道他們那個……就如同委員所垂詢的，我們檢察官會提出抗告，但內容我還沒有……今天早上一直在這裡，我還來不及看。"],["林委員思銘：是，我剛才看一下，是罪證不足。所以這很諷刺啊！一個案子調查那麼久，最後要聲押卻罪證不足。所以我們還是要去這個……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：報告，因為地院法官的看法有時候每個地方法院都不太一樣，另外二審的法官的看法也有他們的見解，所以接下來要看案情的發展。"],["林委員思銘：總長，我最後要講，我希望這個案子，因為如果從整個報導或者相關的訊息來看的話，我們國營事業的子公司竟然有這麼大的一個弊案，有知情人士講說水很深，所以我希望我們檢察官能夠就這個案子不管涉及的層級多高、水多深一定要徹查到底，總長有沒有信心？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員，當然！國營事業的財產就是全民的財產，也是我們檢察官的財產，是全國人民的，當然我們檢察官一定會戮力以赴。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我希望這個案子一定要查個水落石出，不能有任何的護短。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是，當然。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上。謝謝。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}