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本席邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長部長今天跟你來討論一下就是我們很多人關心的現在一些大車的駕駛短缺人力的問題"},{"start":25.963,"end":52.098,"text":"根據交通部的數字其實我掌握到的數字是這樣就是我們的市區客運因為駕駛短少少了15%的班次乘客人數就少了21%因為班次少載的人就少這是市區客運公路客運就像高速公路那種公路客運更嚴重它少了36%的班次"},{"start":54.611,"end":81.39,"text":"少了40%的乘客人數以前公路客運很便捷最高峰我記得好像15分鐘就一班一個小時可能三班、四班現在有的比較慘的一個小時剩一班你越不方便很多人就越不願意去搭乘當然也有市場競爭的問題比如鐵路、高鐵的競爭問題但是到底少了多少職業駕駛"},{"start":83.447,"end":93.254,"text":"那你剛剛根據你們交通部的統計公路少了772位那市區的少了1443位那總共是少了2215位這個大車、大貨車、貨櫃車這個駕駛嚴重短缺甚至是我們載人的客運公車這其實都影響到國家的競爭力那你們說要補助那個貨運業、相關行業去聘請駕駛"},{"start":113.837,"end":133.822,"text":"報酬幾檔啊?從108年開始有沒有效?108辦了一次然後之後是111年9月開始到現在我數字給你看你月補助一萬一千多人你聽到意思嗎?過程有已經三千多人但是流失的我來提一個你們可以當參考"},{"start":137.861,"end":148.706,"text":"我認為啊也許可以速度的在提高就延長既有的職業駕駛那種大車職業駕駛退休的年齡啊計程車啊我們從65歲以前載客輪車載到65歲後載到68歲現在計程車可以開到70歲你看日本有些銀髮駕駛開得很好"},{"start":164.562,"end":185.547,"text":"對不對那職業的這種大車駕駛啊你也許可以比照考慮啦你只要第一個這個駕駛他沒有重大肇事的前科對不對第二個身體健康你當然你可以要求68歲他現在可以開到68歲嘛對不對他可以開到70歲如果68歲過你本來要提供一片嘛你的那個認知體檢嘛"},{"start":191.519,"end":218.954,"text":"是不是這樣子?第三,你限制他的工作時數就是說他不能回家啦對不對?他台南開到台中嘛你只要再多一些配套措施我跟你講,現在有些人啦七十歲了身體比我還好啦是不是這樣?這樣最快啦而且他開了一輩子的車啦他跑的路線他也熟啦車輛他也熟啦"},{"start":220.492,"end":244.765,"text":"如果他有意願他想要再延長就業那我們就配套給他嘛你辦理身體檢查一次我查看你有沒有重大肇事前科第三你不能跑一天不能開超過8小時你這樣業者很快他熟練的員工駕駛他可以留下來那你們不做啦只要要補助他就請不上年人你知道嗎"},{"start":246.073,"end":254.231,"text":"那現在因為職業教職現在各行各業都缺人啦不是只有職業教職缺人啦所以大家都在搶人"},{"start":257.482,"end":282.792,"text":"你當然相對工作條件環境啦這個告訴就開始運用了那部長有意見嗎報告委員隨著國人的年紀的延長我們的壽命一直在延長所以這個議題未來一定會一直討論到啦大家的工作的年紀大概也會往後延你應該就跟業者座談嘛業者也提出這樣的一個需求嘛那我再請教工種啦這個部分我們之前開放到68歲已經有1300多人"},{"start":284.933,"end":303.532,"text":"對阿那您剛建議的那幾項剛好現在我們針對到68歲也大概都是這樣做但您的建議很好如果延到70歲是不是再更加嚴一點健康的部分更加嚴一點對所以我要請教請教工種嘛你計程車從68延長到70有沒有造成什麼樣的重大不良"},{"start":304.593,"end":331.236,"text":"各位報告我們還是開得很好啊對 也是一步一步啦就像委員說的就是說它逐步延長以後它可能有一些配套的措施有一些資格條件或者是限制的這個營業的一些條件所以部長我覺得這樣這樣可能比較快可以解決這個問題可以試試看啦這個是蠻具體的應該研究的方向否則啦因為有些價值確實如果有問題現在的業者也不敢把價值淘汰啦"},{"start":332.637,"end":354.787,"text":"他欠沒人啦,這個架樹就石棍賣啦,吃分補檳榔啦,開車常這樣有的沒的有人投書幹嘛,他不敢換他啦,我就欠沒人,我把工錢換掉了就造成很大的問題啦,你知道政府花了很多錢在處理大車的行車安全肇事件數啦,死傷人數啦,每年都增加部長你看到我在交通委員會這幾年"},{"start":359.369,"end":368.434,"text":"政府開多少百億改善耗資、危險路口、危險道路、大車的視野輔助系統開多少錢你知道嗎?造勢建築啊,等於就整個啊每一年大車啦,弄死人啦,受傷的人啦逐年攀升,你看到數字看可不可怕啊去年已經多少人了?"},{"start":384.83,"end":391.533,"text":"去年已經有一萬三千六百個人因為大車的造勢事故而造成死傷這有一部分當然是教書的部分有一部分就是政府該做的不要耗資危險入口的設計所以你們要把這個納入你們的施政目標"},{"start":407.304,"end":434.942,"text":"中央跟地方花了幾百億只要有相關交通安全的預算沒有人不支持的你換了什麼部長你意見看一下這個部分其實我覺得從勞工的補充面來思考大型車輛它的造勢的部分看可不可以有所控制這個部分其實各方面都在努力工程面也好、教育面也好、監理面也好都在努力但是勞工的問題確實是應該要解決"},{"start":437.043,"end":440.145,"text":"市區公車有那種定期訓練他每年都要回來訓練還有職權獎習訓練這個效果好不好?客運公車這個"},{"start":453.699,"end":480.362,"text":"這個效果應該是有的還是回來後面說說大家回來打瞌睡、看個電影有效啦有效有效有效因為會對於事故的比如說防範或是有一些法規的最新修正都會來做那個訓導部長部長 他們說說有好嘛如果之前講是每年定期訓練有效我說的是市區的大客車啦那你大車為什麼不用"},{"start":482.023,"end":483.103,"text":"大貨車會不會用視野輔助系統 我也不曉得他那個輪差視角"},{"start":498.807,"end":516.514,"text":"還有那個他在駕駛上一些該注意的事項還有重大事故可以引為教訓的案例、講習你想要沒有我們這些迴訊應該是要逐步擴大現在只有客車的部分很多年了我們在講的說其他的大車對阿我問問阿應該是要有這個要繼續擴大"},{"start":521.005,"end":545.674,"text":"對阿 昨天你跟我說沒有 我就不用再問了 你跟我說有效嗎沒有啦 要持續要有效 你想要大聲嗎對 就是持續就是說來做這個對象我們再持續擴充 然後一些因為肇事事件最多的 死傷人數最多的 你不去處理他們為什麼不必接受這些訓練 如果這些訓練有效另外喔 我要請你們要注意這些訓練真的有效嗎"},{"start":548.12,"end":574.647,"text":"真的去修分料對於行車安全有沒有提升有幫助嗎?我認為你們的課程訓練你們這些算是大官你也要解釋一下看這個好不好?要讓它更有效因為還有一個很奇怪的現象部長你知道嗎?我們現在是不是欠高速?但大車啦越買越多啦大車掛牌數字越來越多我最奇怪你的車就沒人開,為什麼掛牌的車越來越多"},{"start":578.168,"end":584.793,"text":"你出去看喔 大貨車大貨車108年全國16萬5千部現在已經到17萬6千部了喔多少多少啊 大貨車多少萬人我在猜喔是不是車不可以去用吊牌我這裡我因為沒有時間我再跟跟跟你們提醒一點啦齁我希望大家要去檢討一個你罰人再罰車除了獨駕、九駕啦你把車牌吊著啦除了喔"},{"start":608.462,"end":636.994,"text":"你罰人有沒有必要一定要罰車啦你講他廢車就是說他現在記點記了啦手機記點了你現在把大車的車擺放那營業大貨車這是他的他靠著你吃飯的啊是不是這樣或是有些一般人他車子可能是他生活必須他要生意上班啦他要帶孩子啦帶出來死大人啊他如果不對你就把他換嘛你把他車擺放他就不會開車啦"},{"start":639.318,"end":655.204,"text":"車子會自己超速嗎?車子會自己亂跑嗎?那是人的問題吧?華人不罰車的部分我們已經在研議了對,但是你除非很特殊的,像是獨駕、吸毒駕駛或是說酒駕,那你車子擺在那邊也沒關係啦否則啊,你幹嘛,你是紅髮人還是紅髮車?那有遺罪的量嗎?車子會自己超速嗎?那都人的不對嘛"},{"start":662.099,"end":675.657,"text":"是不是這樣希望這個部分我們希望交通部能夠能夠全面檢討一下已經目前吊貨車牌的項目實在太多了啦有些其實已經有一些嚴苛了好不好好 要補掉喔 讓人搞掉謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時4分）謝謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員俊憲：部長……"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：今天跟你來討論一下現在很多人關心大車的駕駛短缺人力的問題。根據交通部的數字，其實我掌握到的數字是這樣，就是我們的市區客運因為駕駛短少，而少了15%的班次，乘客人數就少了21%，因為班次少，載的人就少，這是市區客運；公路客運（就像高速公路那種公路客運）更嚴重，少了36%的班次，少了40%的乘客人數。以前公路客運很便捷，我記得最高峰好像15分鐘就一班，1個小時可能三班、四班，現在有的比較慘，1個小時剩一班，而且越不方便，很多人就越不願意去搭乘，當然也有市場競爭的問題，比如鐵路、高鐵的競爭問題。但是到底少了多少職業駕駛？根據你們交通部的統計，公路少了772位，市區少了1,443位，總共是少了2,215位。大車、大貨車、貨櫃車的駕駛嚴重短缺，甚至是載人的客運公車，這其實都影響到國家的競爭力。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：你們說要補助客運業相關行業去聘請駕駛，補助幾年了？"],["陳部長世凱：從108年開始到現在。"],["林委員俊憲：有沒有效？"],["陳局長文瑞：108年辦了一次，之後是111年9月，一直到現在。"],["林委員俊憲：沒效啦，我把數字給你看，你越補助，它還是越請不到人，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：過程有引進了三千多人，但是流失的……"],["林委員俊憲：我來提一個建議，你們可以當參考。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我認為也許可以適度地再提高、延長既有大車職業駕駛退休的年齡，以前開計程車開到65歲，後來延長到68歲，現在計程車可以開到70歲。你看日本有些銀髮駕駛開得很好，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：對於職業的大車駕駛，你也許可以比照考慮，只要：第一個，這個駕駛他沒有重大肇事的前科，對不對？第二個，身體健康，現在可以開到68歲嘛，對不對？可以延長到70歲，如果過了68歲，半年要體檢一次，進行認知體檢，是不是這樣子？第三，限制他的工作時數，就是他不能開長途的，對不對？從臺南開到臺中嘛。只要再多一些配套措施。我跟你講，現在有些人70歲了，身體比我還好，是不是這樣？這樣最快。而且他開了一輩子的車，他跑的路線他也熟，車輛他也熟，如果他有意願，想要再延長就業，我們就配套給他，半年身體檢查一次，查看他有沒有重大肇事前科，再加上第三點，他一天不能開超過8小時。這樣業者很快就可以讓熟練的員工駕駛留下來，但你們不做，只補助，問題是業者就請不到年輕人，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：除了職業駕駛，現在各行各業都缺人，不是只有職業駕駛缺人，所以大家都在搶人，當然在相對工作條件環境下，駕駛就開始受影響了，部長，你的意見呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，隨著國人的壽命一直在延長，所以這個議題未來一定會一直討論到，大家的工作年紀大概也會往後延，這個應該會討論到……"],["林委員俊憲：你應該去跟業者座談，業者也提出這樣的需求。我再請教公總……"],["陳部長世凱：針對這個部分，我們之前開放到68歲，已經有一千三百多人……"],["林委員俊憲：對啊。"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛建議的那幾項，剛好現在我們針對到68歲也大概都是這樣做。您的建議很好，如果延到70歲，是不是再更加嚴一點，健康的部分更加嚴一點……"],["林委員俊憲：所以我要請教公總，計程車從68歲延長到70歲，有沒有造成什麼樣的重大不良？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我們已經……"],["林委員俊憲：還是開得很好啊。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，也是一步、一步，就像委員說的，逐步延長以後，可能有一些配套的措施，有一些資格條件，或者是限制營業的一些條件。"],["林委員俊憲：對，所以部長，我覺得這樣可能比較快可以解決這個問題，可以試試看。"],["陳部長世凱：這個是滿具體應該研究的方向。"],["林委員俊憲：否則有些駕駛如果確實有問題，現在的業者也不敢把駕駛淘汰，因為他請不到人，這個駕駛的習慣不好，例如抽菸、嚼檳榔，開車常常做一些有的沒的，雖然有人投訴，他也不敢換掉他，因為他已經請不到人了，怎麼敢再把他換掉，這就容易造成很大的問題。","政府花了很多錢在處理大車的行車安全，但是肇事件數、死傷人數卻每年都增加，部長，我在交通委員會這幾年政府花了好幾百億改善號誌、危險路口、危險道路、大車視野輔助系統，花了多少錢，你知道嗎？肇事件數每年都增加，每一年大車撞死人、致人受傷的件數逐年攀升，你看那個數字可不可怕，去年已經多少人了？去年已經有1萬3,600人，因為大車的肇事事故而造成死傷，這有一部分當然是駕駛的問題，有一部分就是你說的政府該做的，比方號誌、危險路口的設計等有的沒的，所以你們也要把這個納入你們的施政目標，不然花了這麼多錢，中央和地方花了幾百億，只要是交通安全的相關預算沒有人不支持的，可是換來的是什麼東西？部長，你的意見呢？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分其實我覺得從勞工的補充面來思考，看大型車輛的肇事部分可不可以有所控制，其實各方面都在努力，工程面也好、教育面也好、監理面也好，都在努力，但是勞工的問題確實是應該要解決。"],["林委員俊憲：還有營業大客車，也就是市區公車有定期訓練，每年都要回來訓練，還有職前講習訓練，客運公車這個部分的效果好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個效果應該是有的。"],["林委員俊憲：還是回來隨便講一講，大家回來打瞌睡、看個電影而已？有效嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：有效，因為對於事故的防範或是有一些法規的最新修正，我們都會來做宣導。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，他們都說有效，如果職前講習和每年定期訓練有效，我指的是市區大客車，大車為什麼不用？大貨車為什麼不用？如果是有效的，你自己也說有效，現在大車、大貨車為什麼沒有？我不知道大貨車駕駛會不會用視野輔助系統，輪差死角以及在駕駛上一些該注意的事項，還有重大事故可以引為教訓的案例講習，為什麼沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：我們這些回訓應該是要逐步擴大，現在只有客車的部分……"],["林委員俊憲：很多年了。"],["陳部長世凱：還有委員在講的其他的大車，包括大貨車這些，應該是要有，要繼續擴大。"],["林委員俊憲：對，所以我才會問。如果局長跟我說沒效，我就不用再問下去，你跟我說有效，既然有效，為什麼大車不用？"],["陳局長文瑞：就是要持續來做，對象我們再持續擴充，以及課程再做強化。"],["林委員俊憲：因為肇事事件最多的，死傷人數最多的，你不去處理，如果這些訓練有效，他們為什麼不必接受這些訓練？另外，我也要請你們注意這些訓練真的有效嗎？真的去受訓之後，對於行車安全有沒有提升、有沒有幫助？我覺得你們的課程訓練，你們都算是大官，你們也要自己下去瞭解一下看看有沒有效。"],["陳部長世凱：要讓它更有效。"],["林委員俊憲：另外還有一個很奇怪的現象，部長，你知道嗎？我們現在是不是缺駕駛？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：但是大車越買越多，大車掛牌數是越來越多，我覺得奇怪，車子就沒人開，為什麼掛牌車越來越多，你注意看大貨車108年全國16萬5,000部，現在已經到17萬6,000部了，越來越多到底是什麼原因？我在猜是不是因為車子被吊扣車牌，所以不能開，因為我沒有時間了，我再跟你們提醒一點，我希望大家要去檢討罰人再罰車，除了毒駕、酒駕，你把車牌吊扣，剩下的罰人有沒有必要一定要罰車，貨車司機被記點之後，你現在把大車的車牌吊扣，他是靠營業大貨車在生活的，或是對於有些人而言，車子可能是他的生活必需，他要開車去上班、載小孩、載家裡的長輩，他如果不對你就罰他，你把他的車牌吊扣，他就不能開了，車子會自己超速嗎？車子會自己亂跑嗎？那是人的問題吧！"],["陳部長世凱：委員，你提的罰人不罰車的部分，我們已經在研議了，這個部分應該要朝這個方向比較好。"],["林委員俊憲：除非是很特殊的情況，像吸毒駕駛或酒駕，你把車牌吊扣沒關係，否則你幹嘛罰人又罰車？這樣有沒有一罪兩罰？車會自己超速嗎？那都是人的不對嘛！是不是這樣？我們也希望這個部分交通部能夠全面檢討一下，目前吊扣車牌的項目實在太多了，其實已經有一些嚴苛了，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長、謝謝局長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}