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感謝主席喔現在感覺好像立法院有作對廝殺的感覺齁不過 吳委員剛剛你沒有提案說明但是你有連署禁法補償也要提高六萬元啦所以你自己沒有提案但是你有連署啦齁好 來"},{"start":30.11,"end":55.916,"text":"趙偉 謝謝我們麻煩請我們我專業沒有問題感謝謝謝來那個我請我們司法院副秘書長跟我們法務部部長好不好不過剛剛吳委員我想我們還是專業問政其實吳委員剛剛提到一個重點是我今天準備的一個資料本席想要請教我先請教一下部長"},{"start":56.96,"end":82.241,"text":"部長有沒有看到我們最近新聞昨天我們也討論說偵查不公開啊你當然這邊都講是說沒有沒有啊但是最近新聞我覺得是亂象很頻傳啊有這個嫌疑人在被收押進鑑但是他出庭他光出庭的時候出來然後剛那個畫面媒體就去拍那我想是說第一出庭的時間媒體怎麼會知道"},{"start":83.24,"end":107.275,"text":"媒體不會24小時都在那個高處來鎖定嘛我想那麼長的時間媒體不太可能24小時在那邊那可能就變成是衍生一個他也許有人通風報信他今天會出庭可能上午可能下午所以媒體他知道說他先去那邊等第二拍到那個畫面之後啊開始政論節目大作文章啊"},{"start":108.072,"end":136.538,"text":"有沒有戴眼鏡他今天沒戴眼鏡可能他要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天穿黃色的衣服要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天走路甚至媒體寫什麼緊閉雙唇眼神非常凝重我想請教這樣子變成是說讓媒體可以捕風捉影社會輿論帶風向某程度上對於嫌疑人是不是也是有一種不公平的對待"},{"start":137.378,"end":142.347,"text":"部長你怎麼看?這部分我可不可以做一個報告"},{"start":144.923,"end":147.964,"text":"但是記者24小時不回家跟說他知道哪一個人出庭會有直接關係嗎?"},{"start":170.452,"end":172.533,"text":"我現在提的是說過去到現在我們都一直有看到那樣的畫面"},{"start":196.905,"end":225.645,"text":"緊繃程度上這是不是應該有檢討的空間或改進的空間不要讓大家到時候變成是說有捕風捉影欸連說他今天戴不戴眼鏡你有沒有看到上個禮拜的那個政論節目有不戴眼鏡或戴眼鏡居然可以政論節目從晚上8點討論到晚上12點然後光一個有沒有眼鏡然後釋放什麼訊息出大事了我想欸如果說這樣的話那都讓這些名嘴來治國就好啦所以"},{"start":226.445,"end":247.402,"text":"追根究底、塑本清源、改進的空間我覺得其實也沒有必要說有這樣的話如果說今天那個角度真的拍不到那我想媒體朋友也比較輕鬆啦他也不用在那邊守24小時您認為呢這部分我會請台高檢來請北檢督導北檢來做事"},{"start":248.383,"end":249.764,"text":"但是從以前到現在這個影像流出多少了?"},{"start":264.189,"end":291.442,"text":"議長﹖"},{"start":292.022,"end":292.723,"text":"來部長我再請教一下"},{"start":313.894,"end":338.901,"text":"昨天這個直轄市高雄市啊也有議員問說這樣不贊成死刑啊高雄市所有的分局長全部都舉手贊成你有看到這新聞嗎我沒有看過這個新聞沒有看到這個新聞所以昨天我已經跟你講了就是高雄市議會這邊來做這個質詢的時候議員問說是不是贊成死刑高雄市的分局長全部都舉手"},{"start":341.2,"end":364.232,"text":"我想我也不用這邊詢問啦但我相信啦今天要說在場所有的執法人員我們司法法制委員會有人要贊成廢死有人要願意舉手嗎?看起來沒有所以看起來死刑是我們高度的一個共識啊大家也認為是說我們法治社會應該要有死刑的一個"},{"start":365.333,"end":366.113,"text":"這是機密嗎?這個在審核這部分齁"},{"start":394.981,"end":412.836,"text":"這是機密嗎?已經三審定驗的37名死刑犯其中有長達已經定驗了20幾年了我印象沒有錯的話最久的應該是24年1999年8月的時候三審定驗的死刑犯到目前都還沒有執行死刑"},{"start":414.045,"end":426.592,"text":"那這37名死刑犯 有提非常上訴嗎?現在還沒有提 有多少人有符合資格?這部分我沒辦法跟委員報告 那誰有辦法?這是機密嗎?"},{"start":426.592,"end":434.917,"text":"那個總長有在 因為我們是總長 你閉目養神喔 我揣一條好像不關你的事捏 這個"},{"start":440.526,"end":461.365,"text":"委員你講話我每句話都非常認真在聽是用閉目養神的方式是不是來請回答這個我們在10月24號我們有給羅委員一個文他問了問槌尋的事項跟委員完全一樣我們是依照憲判制第8判決的意旨我們現在調卷在逐項研議中"},{"start":467.127,"end":490.445,"text":"我問是說有多少37名死刑犯有多少人符合提出非常上訴的資格我們在研議中那有沒有符合資格符合了我們自然就會提起非常上訴那什麼時候會研議出來什麼時候會研議出來我們等到有結果的時候我們就會跟依法提起來依法提出"},{"start":494.293,"end":496.655,"text":"總統,你完全沒有針對本席的問題回答問題。總統,本席的問題有那麼難以理解嗎?還是你現在認為這是官僚?部長,你可以接受這樣的一個答詢嗎?的一個態度嗎?"},{"start":520.285,"end":544.002,"text":"本來在審這個是很慎重的本來就要一種很嚴密的很審慎的一個態度去依照憲判意旨以及卷證的因為卷證的這些的資料再去審酌可不可以提起非常上述的一個空間嗎這個個案的問題這個現在我想總長我想部長總長看起來你們都不敢面對國人的質疑啊"},{"start":544.813,"end":566.155,"text":"本席會在這邊提出來這個問題並不是……我想用最謹慎的、最慎重的態度去處理它每一次你們都是用最謹慎的態度、貴嚴謹的態度在協助死刑犯這一點是國人到現在最沒有辦法接受的地方就每一次我在這一……我已經很好生好氣囉,說實在的部長"},{"start":567.867,"end":592.594,"text":"我上一次在這邊質詢您的時候我講的就是劉宗鑫所長的案件我就講說劉宗鑫所長他被一個獨家犯這樣子給撞離開劉宗鑫所長就這樣子天人永隔你有沒有看到前兩天我去參加他的告別式的時候他的女兒怎麼講他女兒講是說可不可以請老天爺讓他爸爸回來結果你們現在在講的是說你們現在在講的是說聽好你們現在在講的是說"},{"start":599.025,"end":611.749,"text":"我們要很謹慎的很慎重的對待這些死刑犯這個本來就是要審的要很慎重的態度去審慎重嚴謹是要保護好人並不是要保護壞人這種態度沒有辦法嗎我們就是對壞人要不懷疑要一個追究嘛所以我們態度是跟委員是一樣的"},{"start":624.128,"end":636.927,"text":"副部長我沒有辦法現在我沒有辦法跟你以一樣的態度來因為抱歉啊讓那個副秘書長在那邊站比較久我最後一分鐘好不好抱歉我時間也到了最後一分鐘請教副秘書長"},{"start":638.444,"end":665.631,"text":"副組長我只要請教一下啦因為現在今天下午我們草野會有再做協商的一個空間那針對就是現在所謂這個總預算的一個部分我想之前可能有委員也都有質詢過但我想還是要釐清一下說憲法法庭的一個態度或是說這個條件就是當我們三讀通過的法令行政部門有認為自愛難行之處第一他要做什麼樣的一個處置"},{"start":668.837,"end":694.677,"text":"公委員報告那因為看媒體講說說可能會有憲法上面的問題但是公委員報告因為我們司法行政單位不能去救憲法法庭的部分去將來假設我先請教就是說我們憲法徵修條文裡面有提到嘛就是說當行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案或是條約案認為有摯愛難行之處他馬上就提起釋憲嗎"},{"start":697.489,"end":707.86,"text":"那個跟委員報告因為那個司法院的秘書處不能就憲法法庭的部分去不是我現在請教你憲法申修條文條文內容"},{"start":711.587,"end":733.802,"text":"憲法徵修條文第三條行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案條約案如認為有致愛難行之處得在該決議案送達行政院十日內以請立法院復議所以說行政部門認為法律案預算案條約案有認為致愛難行之處要以請立法院復議嗎?"},{"start":735.123,"end":742.073,"text":"那請教我們剛剛現在社會大眾一直在關心的這個禁法補償條例有行政部門有附議嗎?"},{"start":744.12,"end":764.815,"text":"沒有總統公告了接下來再來是第47條是刑法訴訟法47條如果說國家最高機關就法的規範認為有抵觸憲法者得申請憲法法庭作為宣告違憲制判決這是七條的要點對不對"},{"start":767.642,"end":790.677,"text":"但在48條裡面有特別提到前項法規如果抵觸憲法一役各機關於職權範圍內得自行排除者不得申請那換言之啊現在很多的委員或甚至說這個行政院院長來講是說這個是違憲啊違憲是說我們通過法令案把民定這個是違憲您覺得說有違憲嗎"},{"start":794.331,"end":798.213,"text":"我們現在的法律有沒有哪一些法律裡面明文規定有必須要多少的一個費用"},{"start":820.367,"end":822.008,"text":"所以說其實我們六法全書裡面或說各相關的一個法令其實也都有相關的一個費用啊"},{"start":838.916,"end":857.056,"text":"議員（"},{"start":857.316,"end":874.916,"text":"行法訴訟法裡面也明擺的規定如果說機關的一個爭議要提起釋憲但是他跟其他的這個法條其實根本沒有構成要件的時候你認為可以接受符合這樣釋憲的要件嗎?委員報告是不是符合要件我們不是憲法法庭不能不能去就這邊去智慧"},{"start":877.11,"end":894.826,"text":"我真的期待啊司法法制委員會之前在這邊都是有風骨的法律人能夠來備詢講實話你可以多說你可以少說但是不說謊不造假但是我現在非常的遺憾部長總長還是副秘書長真的"},{"start":899.284,"end":905.096,"text":"質證是一時任何人都會執政但是你們法律人是永久的留一些名聲給大家談聽謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時52分）感謝主席。感覺現在立法院好像有捉對廝殺的感覺，不過吳委員，剛剛你沒有提案說明，但是你有連署禁伐補償也要提高六萬元，所以你自己沒有提案，但是你有連署。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個問題我們就不用討論了……洪孟楷，你應該比較專業……"],["洪委員孟楷：我專業，沒有問題，感謝。","我請司法院副秘書長跟法務部長。"],["主席：副秘書長、部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想我們還是專業問政，其實吳委員剛剛提到一個重點也是我今天準備的一個資料，本席想要請教，我先請教一下部長，部長有沒有看到最近的新聞，昨天我們也在討論偵查不公開，你這邊當然都講說沒有，但最近新聞我覺得是亂象頻傳，有嫌疑人被收押禁見，他出庭的時候出來，然後媒體就去拍那個畫面，我就想說，第一，出庭的時間媒體怎麼會知道？媒體不會24小時都在那個高處來鎖定，我想那麼長的時間，媒體不太可能24小時都在那邊，可能就衍生出也許有人通風報信他今天會出庭，可能上午、可能下午，所以媒體知道就先去那邊等。第二，拍到那個畫面之後，政論節目開始大做文章，有沒有戴眼鏡，他今天沒戴眼鏡，可能他要傳達什麼樣的訊息，他今天穿黃色的衣服要傳達什麼樣的訊息，他今天走路，甚至媒體寫什麼？「緊閉雙唇，眼神非常凝重」。我想請教，這樣變成是讓媒體可以捕風捉影，社會輿論帶風向，某種程度上，對於嫌疑人是不是也是一種不公平的對待？部長，你怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我跟委員報告，北檢，我想您是指某特定地點，那個的確有記者是幾乎24小時以那裡為家的，所以我想這個有當地生態的問題，但是我想這部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是記者24小時不回家跟他知道哪一個人出庭會有直接關係嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他們就在算囚車提解的，他們就可以知道一些，就做一個報導。我想這個跟偵查的程序內容……我想不一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我現在要提的是，過去到現在我們都一直有看到那樣的畫面，某種程度上這是不是應該有檢討的空間或改進的空間？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我跟委員報告，我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要讓大家到最後變成是捕風捉影，連他今天有沒有戴眼鏡，你有沒有看到上個禮拜的政論節目？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有時間看政論節目……"],["洪委員孟楷：不戴眼鏡或戴眼鏡，政論節目居然可以從晚上8點討論到晚上12點，光一個有沒有眼鏡，就可以解讀成釋放什麼訊息、出大事了，如果這樣的話，都讓這些名嘴來治國就好啦！所以追根究柢、溯本清源去檢討改進的空間，我覺得其實也沒有必要說……如果今天那個角度真的拍不到，我想媒體朋友也比較輕鬆啦，他也不用在那邊守24小時，您認為呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我會請臺高檢督導北檢來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：不只北檢啦，我覺得是全臺灣的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想做一個檢討看看，如果有委員關心的問題，我們就是做適當的遮掩。不過我跟委員報告，這不是一個公開場合，我沒有故意要給媒體知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是從以前到現在這個影像流出多少了，以我們的歷史來講，從以前到現在幾乎都會有這樣的畫面嘛！所以我才會提到，如果我們現在有看到這樣的問題，未來這個部分，媒體朋友其實相對也比較輕鬆啊，因為我相信媒體朋友可能也是長官order他，長官跟他講那個地方拍得到，你們就去那邊守24小時，今天就有這個畫面，如果真的拍不到了，長官也不會order嘛！部長，請做一個檢討，好不好？因為今天剛好藍綠委員都有提到這樣的問題，我們避免讓偵查中的案件好像受社會輿論討論，連一個什麼畫面就可以講一整晚，說實在，這就像看圖說故事，也太嚴重了吧！","部長，我再請教一下，昨天直轄市高雄市也有議員問到贊不贊成死刑，高雄市所有的分局長全部都舉手贊成，你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有看過這個新聞。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有看到這新聞。所以我已經跟你講了，昨天高雄市議會在質詢的時候，議員問說是不是贊成死刑，高雄市的分局長全部都舉手，我想我也不用在這邊詢問，但我相信今天在場所有的執法人員，以及我們司法及法制委員會，如果問說贊成廢死，有人願意舉手嗎？看起來沒有。所以看起來死刑是我們高度的共識，大家也認為我們是法治社會，應該要有死刑的保護。剛剛有委員有提到現在有37個死刑犯提非常上訴，符合提非常上訴的資格，現在有多少人符合，以及現在提的狀況怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個現在由最高檢察署在審核中，我不清楚這部分的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，剛剛我看有委員在詢問的時候，你們也沒有辦法回答，這是機密嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在審核的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是機密嗎？已經三審定讞的37名死刑犯，其中有長達已經定讞了二十幾年的，我印象沒有錯的話，最久的應該是24年，1999年8月三審定讞的死刑犯，到目前都還沒有執行死刑，這37名死刑犯有提非常上訴嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還沒有提……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少人符合資格？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我沒辦法跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：那誰有辦法？這是機密嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：總長有在這裡，因為我們是……"],["洪委員孟楷：總長，你閉目養神喔？我嚇一跳，好像不關你的事耶！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員，你講的話，我每一句話都非常認真在聽。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，用閉目養神的方式，是不是？來，請回答。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們在10月24日我們有給羅委員一個文，他垂詢的事項跟委員完全一樣，我們是依照憲判字第8號判決的意旨，我們現在調卷在逐項研議中。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是。你有沒有聽清楚我的問題？我問說37名死刑犯有多少人符合提出非常上訴的資格。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們在研議中，至於有沒有符合資格，如果符合，我們自然就會提起非常上訴。"],["洪委員孟楷：那什麼時候會研議出來？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：什麼時候研議出來？我們等到有結果的時候，我們就會依法提出。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，總長，你完全沒有針對本席的問題回答耶。總長。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：你請說。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席的問題有那麼難以理解嗎？還是你現在認為這就是官僚？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我剛剛講得很清楚……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你可以接受這樣答詢的態度嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本來再審就是很慎重的事，本來就要有一種很嚴密的、很審慎的態度，去依照憲判意旨及卷證的資料再去審酌，看有沒有提起非常上訴的空間。這個個案的問題，現在我想總長……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、總長，看起來，你們都不敢面對國人的質疑啊！本席會站在這邊提出來這個問題，並不是無的放矢……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想要用最謹慎的、最慎重的態度去處理它。"],["洪委員孟楷：每一次你們都是用最謹慎的態度、最嚴謹的態度在協助死刑犯，這一點是國人到現在最沒有辦法接受的地方，每一次我在這裡，我已經很好聲好氣了，說實在，部長，我上一次在這邊質詢您的時候，我講的就是劉宗鑫所長的案件，我就說劉宗鑫所長被一個毒駕犯這樣子撞到離開，劉宗鑫所長就這樣子天人永隔，你有沒有看到前兩天我去參加他的告別式的時候，他的女兒怎麼講？他的女兒講說可不可以請老天爺讓他爸爸回來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們檢察官……"],["洪委員孟楷：結果你們現在講的是說，聽好，你們現在講的是說：我們要很謹慎地、很慎重地對待這些死刑犯。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，這本來就是要審的，要以很慎重的態度去審。剛才你講的那個所長，我們跟你一樣感到很不捨……"],["洪委員孟楷：慎重、嚴謹，是要保護好人，並不是要保護壞人，這種態度沒有辦法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們本來就是在保護好人，為什麼要保護壞人？我們就是對壞人的不法要嚴格追究嘛！所以我們的態度是跟委員是一樣的，我們對……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在我沒有辦法跟你一樣的態度，抱歉，讓副秘書長在那邊站比較久，最後一分鐘，好不好？抱歉，我的時間也到了。最後一分鐘請教副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：副秘書長，我只是要請教一下，因為今天下午我們朝野會有協商的一個空間，針對現在總預算的一個部分，我想之前可能有委員也都有質詢過，但我想還是要釐清一下憲法法庭的一個態度或條件，就是當我們三讀通過的法令，行政部門認為有窒礙難行之處，第一，它要做什麼樣的一個處置？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，媒體講說可能會有憲法上面的問題，但是跟委員報告，因為我們司法行政單位不能去就憲法法庭的部分去……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，我先請教，我們憲法增修條文裡面有提到，當行政院對於立法院決議的法律案、預算案或是條約案，認為有窒礙難行之處，馬上就提起釋憲嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為司法院的秘書處不能就憲法法庭的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我現在請教你憲法增修條文內容。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那可能看憲法增修條文……"],["洪委員孟楷：憲法增修條文第三條規定，行政院對於立法院決議的法律案、預算案、條約案，如認為有窒礙難行之處，得在該決議案送達行政院10日內，移請立法院覆議。所以說，行政部門認為法律案、預算案、條約案有認為窒礙難行之處，要移請立法院覆議嘛。那請教，現在社會大眾一直在關心的禁伐補償條例，行政部門有覆議嗎？沒有。總統公告了。那接下來是憲法訴訟法第四十七條規定，如果國家最高機關就法的規範，認為有牴觸憲法者，得申請憲法法庭作為宣告違憲之判決，這是四十七條的要點嘛，對不對？但是在第四十八條裡面有特別提到，前條之法規牴觸憲法疑義，各機關於其職權範圍內得自行排除者，不得聲請。換言之，現在很多委員，甚至行政院院長，也講說這個是違憲，違憲是說我們通過的法令案被明定是違憲，您覺得有違憲嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是不是違憲，這個不是我們司法院幕僚單位能夠講的，但是第四十八條的前提是……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，不是你，但是第四十八條講得很清楚嘛！各機關的權責範圍內自行排除。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是權責範圍能夠排除，才有說不能聲請違憲的問題，但是如果沒有辦法去排除的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊。那我想請教副秘書長，我們現在的法律有沒有哪一些法律裡面明文規定，必須要多少的費用？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：法律裡面規定多少費用，像我們的裁判費，訴訟裁判費的徵收，當然都會有規定，但是每一種法的情形不太一樣，我沒有辦法一概而論。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊。所以說我們六法全書裡面或相關的法令，其實也都有相關的費用啊，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：法的意旨不同，我們沒有辦法去說這個法是這樣，所有的法都是一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：副秘書長，我現在只是就事論事啊。我只是想要點出這個荒謬性，就是說，當行政院在十天內沒有提出覆議，沒有認為窒礙難行，也經過總統公告了，而我們的憲法訴訟法裡面也明白規定，如果機關的一個爭議要提起釋憲，但是跟其他的法條根本沒有構成要件的時候，你認為可以接受符合這樣釋憲的要件嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，是不是符合要件，我不是憲法法庭，不能就這邊去置喙。"],["洪委員孟楷：我真的期待啊，司法及法制委員會之前在這邊，都是有風骨的法律人能夠來備詢，講實話，你可以多說，你可以少說，但是不說謊、不造假，但是我現在非常的遺憾，部長、總長、副秘書長，真的，執政是一時，任何人都會執政，但是你們法律人是永久的，留一些名聲給大家探聽，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們就依照先前的宣告，休息5分鐘。部長因為另有要事，所以部長要先離開。","休息（11時7分）","繼續開會（11時14分）"],["主席：謝謝各位，時間到，我們現在開始開會。","下一位我們請楊瓊瓔委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}