{"error":false,"id":["156103"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156103,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156103","日期":"2024-10-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-19-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-24T11:17:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-24T11:27:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf77bfdf7b6c7df70982770301154c67dce0a1e5c1d8db796ee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:17:27 - 11:27:25","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.24471875,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.52096875,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.52471875,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.603468750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.438468750000006,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.37034375,"end":42.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.38721875,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.619093750000005,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.454093750000006,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.60159375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.08971875,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.59096875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.09159375,"end":99.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.77034375000001,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.73221875,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.45784375000001,"end":109.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.62971875000001,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.90784375000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.80471875,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.95596875,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.16159375,"end":137.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.30471875,"end":141.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.40971875,"end":141.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.08471875,"end":142.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.84409375,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.12221875,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.32784375,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.71909375,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.04784375,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.11471875,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.07221875000002,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.13096875000002,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.21909375,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.19346875000002,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.33221875,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.52159375000002,"end":189.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.49409375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.05034375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.21846875,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.86721875,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.72346875000002,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.96784375000001,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.60284375,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.85846875000001,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.29971875,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.44284375,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.49721875,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.55159375,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.00284375,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.90784375000004,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.97471875,"end":285.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.18034375,"end":288.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.96471875000003,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.36909375,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.58409375,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.48471875,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.17221875,"end":312.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.39096875,"end":319.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.04846875000004,"end":321.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.66846875000005,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.97221875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.22534375000004,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.13659375000003,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.15346875,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.17034375000003,"end":323.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.18721875,"end":323.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.50784375,"end":323.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.54159375,"end":323.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.94659375000003,"end":324.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.09846875,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.28409375,"end":326.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.00096875,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.43096875000003,"end":331.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.48534375,"end":334.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.05034375,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.92346875000004,"end":340.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.75409375000004,"end":343.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.24721875,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.68909375000004,"end":354.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":356.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.47721875,"end":358.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.75971875000005,"end":360.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.70034375,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.63096875,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.41971875,"end":376.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.11971875,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.28346875,"end":386.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.73846875000004,"end":389.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.06284375,"end":392.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.80909375000005,"end":400.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.87971875000005,"end":405.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.22909375,"end":417.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.19346875,"end":419.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.04971875,"end":421.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.63596875,"end":424.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.11221875,"end":428.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.77409375,"end":431.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.41909375,"end":434.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.11471875,"end":444.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.60284375000003,"end":446.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.45909375,"end":447.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.39971875000003,"end":450.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.95221875000004,"end":453.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.18784375,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.79409375,"end":467.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.62034375,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.81784375,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.02846875000006,"end":476.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.61471875,"end":484.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.78221875,"end":487.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.27534375000005,"end":491.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.74721875000006,"end":499.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.95721875000004,"end":502.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.86846875000003,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.89784375000005,"end":501.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.85971875,"end":503.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.07471875000005,"end":507.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.56346875,"end":508.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.82909375,"end":509.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.14534375000005,"end":510.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.78221875,"end":514.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.8872187500001,"end":524.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.64096875,"end":542.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.7647187499999,"end":546.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.32534375,"end":549.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.98721875,"end":550.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.42596875,"end":553.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.18909375,"end":557.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.0703437500001,"end":560.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.78721875,"end":564.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.19159375,"end":566.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.57096875,"end":569.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4272187500001,"end":573.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.01721875,"end":575.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.58221875,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.24846875,"end":580.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.2565937500001,"end":583.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.27721875,"end":586.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.9265937499999,"end":588.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.6984687500001,"end":591.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.3984687500001,"end":598.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1484687500001,"end":598.65471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.264,"end":11.546,"text":"我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效．"},{"start":35.66,"end":37.386,"text":"你當然剛剛來到國華會現在少子化你感覺要怎麼改善才好"},{"start":44.444,"end":65.703,"text":"少子化我們現在其實我們從多頭在進行中跟您報告一下第一個我們有做市場的調查還有大數據的分析大數據的分析我們請國會做大概會到年底才會有機會出來因為涉及到一些各自法那這個分析會突破過去傳統的做法"},{"start":66.303,"end":88.104,"text":"那以分析來看以調查來看的話目前我們最大的第一個問題是結婚率比較低第二個結婚年齡偏晚第三個部分是想大家對育兒的壓力比較大那我們現在最能解的是育兒的壓力所以我們現在是朝育兒壓力跟這個結婚的人有沒有機會比較先拿到社宅或者是租到社宅"},{"start":88.884,"end":93.286,"text":"三、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":110.66,"end":137.488,"text":"他說養孩子很辛苦、壓力很大我看他個性很溫柔所以你重點就提出這個地方出來表示你這個調查報告是蠻準確的不是官方正式的一個報告是實際有了解阿現在說生不如死生不如死依照我們觀念說我的家不如死死的就好了那是生活的煎熬"},{"start":138.542,"end":165.151,"text":"這一句話生不只是這樣生的人比死的人還要少尤其現在民意代表大概天天都要去臉香看到他老人家一直過世的話真的差別很大但是我再想想這裡面大概我最資深人生其實才開始所以這個社會是整個交雜在一起的"},{"start":166.178,"end":187.697,"text":"那關於少子化我覺得失絕壓力但是我覺得在這個思想裡面常常沒有提到因為現在都是小那個叫小浪漫就是說只有我喜歡有什麼不可以青春不能留白他們也在逃避這種壓力一個社會結論"},{"start":190.441,"end":209.985,"text":"那整個中國文化裡面對家的傳統觀念很少但是我發覺這整個世界都在改變這一些我做我自己就好我不要負擔壓力大人生的青春不能留白我覺得這幾個觀念你們也要特別注意一下確確實實"},{"start":213.065,"end":227.916,"text":"現在我也問了很多,他說現在跟年輕人講話他不敢亂講,兒子講什麼也只能講好,不外其此上的意思,公切就這世代的觀念差距,其實現在的"},{"start":229.377,"end":255.585,"text":"資訊裏面差距不會很大新的觀念跟舊的觀念有時候是經驗的傳承但是現在要淘汰很多的選票的時候把觀念改判臺灣是沒有職員的國家我覺得真的是當總統人當行政院長當國會的執委應該提出我們臺灣人口對策的一個中心思想不要人人的語言現在說什麼壯世代我搞不懂"},{"start":256.625,"end":277.858,"text":"四十五歲以上叫壯世代,但是諸位,七十五歲及六十五歲是正在生產力的中心,超高齡的說65歲以上的,你給我算個壯世代我就傻了,我今天要問壯世代怎麼解釋,四十五歲到六十歲是生產力最強"},{"start":279.059,"end":289.425,"text":"其實現在的生物科技已經改變了65歲的人以後非常年輕的非常多我估計這裡都要去租也要去賺你看我熱"},{"start":293.55,"end":320.438,"text":"我的看法跟您非常接近因為現在的百歲人類也到了5500多位了那大家的身體越來越健康了那也因為這樣的關係其實勞動部也修了一個法令鼓勵中高齡的人回來就業因為現在人真的越來越年輕那最近的修法退休也不一定限定在65歲對對對好人事室的那個副主委"},{"start":321.578,"end":323.919,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":341.099,"end":356.044,"text":"不強迫退休可以協商來我今天也剛剛碰到一個人跟我存強我們的公務人員60歲達到退休的年齡你們說不准留下來要跟我退但是我跟人事"},{"start":357.52,"end":381.235,"text":"那個副處長我告訴你我會寫公共行政以前為什麼會逼著退是要給年輕的上來接這個公務人員的位置現在公務人員要經過考試考試的時候現在不一定少子化了就會跟大學一樣要來進入公務體系的不一定多"},{"start":382.336,"end":392.27,"text":"而且女生會特別多我跟你講這個變化實在所以在這裏面有一個傳承這個傳承公務系統很重要"},{"start":393.874,"end":417.253,"text":"你到行政公所去看一下那年輕進來的話他就要轉也沒有經驗什麼東西都不敢動所以我覺得公務人員如果能跟機關大家協調好可以說你到哪裡或是協調好應用這個已經很成熟有基本概念的公務人員對我們公務人員的效率推進是幫忙很大"},{"start":418.394,"end":447.307,"text":"觀念改一下時代不一樣不是年輕人就更好吃我們希望他成長但是還有老一代現在的年輕人還在拍槓我選舉的人不能講這種話我是把我觀念跟你講你看法怎麼樣?謝謝委員的指教這個的確這個年齡的延後這是一個目前可能未來可能會面臨的議題那就值得去深思了能不能留任?"},{"start":450.328,"end":475.984,"text":"請說你們發了一張公文去說不能認領跟我離開您提的是公務人員因為公務人員的退休令、借領的退休令是規定在公務人員的退休福氣法裡面在你們現在修改的法令有沒有告發公務人員因為公務人員法令啊這個退休法令在考試院所以我們你告訴我聽不聽得懂你告訴我英文比較不英文"},{"start":476.684,"end":488.58,"text":"因為退休的年齡是法令俱全公務員當然有公務人員的法但是還是依照母法為基準到底65歲屆齡的公務人員能不能繼續留在公務機關"},{"start":492.782,"end":503.805,"text":"如果按照要保留公務人員的身份,既有公務人員身份,因為退服法就規定...當然這台車全車子,你好好思考這幾個問題。我剛才說我早上跟我陳情我才問你。但是,那個...劉書蕾"},{"start":511.826,"end":529.162,"text":"人不行的,你看他血肝退出來不工作的時候很容易這樣我比了手他退出下來你給他有專業他的精神反而更好更強壯你說老人肢胎症就是得出的太陽不知道要做什麼"},{"start":530.963,"end":546.613,"text":"保時中日狠狠頓頓的我感覺你這個剩下60個月現在的健康現在生物科技現在醫療都有在進步不應該限制這個可以給他一個充分發揮我覺得這樣子他們反而更健康"},{"start":550.555,"end":575.258,"text":"你去看美國總統真沒做什麼事情多聰明他真有事情做都很好我建議這幾點然後在留才攬才方面尤其AI你不要台灣培養的人才給外人債用你們永遠記住這一點那些有錢的國家他那些印鈔票的國家把台灣的人才抓高高只要去用來限制我們各種發展"},{"start":576.659,"end":597.621,"text":"且記世界是競爭的大家在勝利要贏大家競爭要贏無所不用其極不要我們假裝仁義道德我告訴你一件事不然台灣包括產農產業高科技業可能在這邊你們自豪很快說不定會消失謝謝第二次安寧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時17分）召委好。首先有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員好。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委好。今天你的第一個主題是有關我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，當然你剛剛來到國發會，對於現在少子化，你覺得要怎麼改進比較好？簡單講重點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在其實是多頭在進行中，跟您報告一下，第一個，我們有做市場的調查，還有大數據的分析，大數據的分析我們請國科會做，大概到年底才有機會出來，因為涉及到一些個資法，那這個分析會突破過去傳統的做法。","以分析、調查來看，目前我們最大的第一個問題是結婚率比較低，第二個是結婚年齡偏晚，第三個部分是大家對育兒的壓力比較大。我們現在最能解的是育兒的壓力，所以我們現在是朝育兒壓力跟結婚的人有沒有機會比較先拿到社宅或是租到社宅，第三個部分是怎麼樣幫他釋壓，因為他們現在小孩生得少，奉養父母、照顧父母的壓力也比較大，我們希望從這三階段來做，所以今年整體編列了一千二百多億的預算。"],["陳委員超明：這個結論我覺得滿中肯的，因為我今天要來以前，我就問我們裡面小姐說現在的人為什麼不想結婚？她說養孩子很辛苦，壓力很大，我看她個性很溫柔，所以你的重點有提出這個地方，表示你的調查報告是滿準確的，不是官方正式的一個報告，是實際有瞭解。","現在說「生不如死」，以前我們的觀念是說活著還不如死了算了，那是生活的煎熬，現在這一句話「生不如死」，指的是生的人比死的人還要少，尤其現在民意代表大概天天都要去捻香，看到老人家一直過世，真的差別很大。但是我又想一想，這裡面大概我最資深，人生七十才開始，所以這個社會是整個交雜在一起啦！","關於少子化，我覺得要紓解壓力，但是在這個思想裡面常常沒有提到，因為現在都是講小浪漫，就是只要我喜歡有什麼不可以，青春不能留白，他們也在逃避這種壓力，這是社會結論。整個中國文化裡面，對家的傳統觀念很少，整個社會都在改變這些觀念，做自己就好、不要負擔壓力大、人生的青春不能留白，我覺得這幾個觀念你們也要特別注意一下。","確確實實，我也問了很多人，他說現在跟年輕人講話都不敢亂講，兒子講什麼也只能講好，不要去扯他的意思，說這個叫做世代的觀念差距。其實現在的資訊裡面，差距不會很大，新的觀念跟舊的觀念有時候是經驗的傳承，但是現在要討好很多選票的時候就把觀念改變。臺灣是沒有資源的國家，我覺得當總統的人、當行政院長、當國發會的主委，真的應該提出我們臺灣人口對策的一個中心思想，不要人云亦云。","現在說什麼壯世代，我搞不懂，45歲以上叫做壯世代，但是主委，45歲到65歲正是生產力中心，超高齡的說要65歲以上，現在出了一個壯世代，我就抓不到頭緒，壯世代怎麼解釋？45歲到65歲是生產力最強，其實現在的生物科技已經改變，65歲的人以後非常年輕的非常多，我覺得這些都要去注意，你的看法如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的看法跟您非常接近啦！因為現在的百歲人瑞也到了五千五百多位，大家的身體越來越健康，也因為這樣的關係，其實勞動部也修了一個法令，鼓勵中高齡的人回來就業……"],["陳委員超明：好，針對這個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為現在的人真的越來越年輕……"],["陳委員超明：謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那最近也修法，退休不一定限定在65歲。"],["陳委員超明：對、對。好，人事總處副人事長也來。"],["主席：副人事長。"],["陳委員超明：主委先等一下。主席，等一下我當代理主席，要讓我多講一點，先跟你講。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：剛剛劉主委講的，65歲的人不強迫退休，可以協商，我今天剛好碰到一個人跟我陳情，公務人員65歲達到退休年齡，你們說不准留下來，一定要退，但是我要跟副人事長講，我也學公共行政，以前為什麼會逼退，是因為要給年輕的上來，接這個公務人員的位子。公務人員要經過考試，但現在少子化，就跟大學一樣，要進入公務體系的人不一定多，而且女生也特別多，我跟你講，這個變化很大，但這裡面有一個傳承，這個傳承在公務系統很重要。你到鄉鎮公所去看一下，年輕人進來，但沒有經驗，什麼東西都不敢動，所以我覺得公務人員如果能跟機關大家協調好，可以說你到哪裡或是協調好，運用這個已經很成熟有基本概念的公務人員，對我們公務人員的效率推進會幫忙很大。觀念要改一下，時代不同了，不是年輕人就比較會做，我們希望他成長，但是還有老一代，現在的年輕人很難講，我要選舉的人不能講這種話，我是把我的觀念跟你講，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["李副人事長秉洲：謝謝委員的指教，的確年齡延後這是未來可能會面臨的一個議題，值得去深思啦！"],["陳委員超明：能不能留任？"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為現在如果能……"],["陳委員超明：聽說你們發了一張公文表示不能留任，要離開！"],["李副人事長秉洲：您提的是公務人員，因為公務人員屆齡退休年齡是規定在公務人員退休撫卹法裡，這有法令規定。"],["陳委員超明：在你們修改的法令中，有沒有包括公務人員？"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為公務人員這個退休法令在考試院，所以我們要跟……"],["陳委員超明：你說的我聽不太懂，你告訴我可以還是不可以？因為退休的年齡是法令限制，公務員當然有公務人員的法，但是還是依照母法為基準，到底65歲屆齡的公務人員能不能繼續留在公務機關？"],["李副人事長秉洲：如果要保留公務人員的身分，具有公務人員身分，因為退撫法就規定65歲屆齡退休……"],["陳委員超明：當然這裡面有牽涉到，你好好思考這幾個問題。"],["李副人事長秉洲：是，這個我們來思考。"],["陳委員超明：我大概知道，但早上剛好有人跟我陳情，所以我才問你。"],["李副人事長秉洲：是。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委，你看世間，退休下來不工作的時候很容易這樣，我用彎曲的食指表示，但如果退休後你給他有專業，他的精神反而更好、身體更強壯。老人痴呆症就是因為在家裡太閒，不知道要做什麼，飽食終日，混混沌沌的。我覺得現在六十幾歲的人都很健康，現在的生物科技、現在的醫療都在進步，不應該限制他退休，可以給他充分發揮，我覺得這樣子他們反而更健康。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員超明：你看美國總統，如果沒事情可做，哇！就會死掉，他如果有事情可做就很好，我建議這幾點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員超明：然後在留才攬才方面，尤其AI，不要臺灣培養的人才給外人用，你們永遠記住這一點，那些有錢的國家、那些印鈔票的國家，把臺灣的人才抓高高去用，來限制我們的各種發展，且記！世界是競爭的，大家做生意要贏，大家競爭要贏，無所不用其極，我們不要假裝仁義道德，我跟你講實在的，不然臺灣包括傳統產業、高科技業，你們自豪很大，但說不定很快會消失，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員，主委請回座。","下一位質詢請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}