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這就是行政院的態度是要提方案而不是要提這個促進法就對了"},{"start":348.78,"end":377.859,"text":"是的 我們對第一個我們贊成壯世代的這樣一個反年齡歧視的概念這個我們絕對支持可是要上綱為法律就值得商榷所以比較保留那我們現在是用行政院因應超高壓力社會對策方案由陳時中政委主持由勞動部來統籌整理所以這個方案未來是我們促進法的這個配套還是政院版的替代方案"},{"start":378.937,"end":379.662,"text":"就是不立法就對了"},{"start":380.809,"end":409.257,"text":"我們比較不傾向用立法來處理我們用行政院的這樣的行政指導的因應方案來處理這樣子因為而且我們行政院本來是院長我們都提出這個提案了啦我們大家都提案了我覺得很多委員都有在連署那我覺得這兩者是相輔相成的我希望行政院以及各部會團隊應該認真的嚴肅看待這部法的制定提出可行的對策方案盡快讓大家都能夠滿意"},{"start":412.638,"end":426.481,"text":"最近我們看到勞動及職業安全衛生研究所做的一份報告表示我國實施近鄰排碳政策將衝擊我國高耗能產業的衝擊電子業所當其衝估計明年就會有一萬人失業這是你們講的對不對"},{"start":436.941,"end":450.804,"text":"委員這個我要澄清他有一個前提是在沒有做任何因應措施的狀況下才會產生這樣的數字那你這些數字怎麼如果說沒有提一些因應措施的話那你們這些數字怎麼來的"},{"start":452.031,"end":455.354,"text":"對,就是說這是一模型,它的模型的參數它設計就是相當單純就是說你這一個淨零碳排的這樣的政策下來可能產生的對企業增加的成本會導致它可能會解雇人或者是裁員官場等等這些啦可是呢"},{"start":472.073,"end":475.437,"text":"這是勞動部的態度,對不對?你們是擔心,你們站在勞工的立場來看這件事情,對吧?那我想請問一下經濟部,經濟部對於這個部分,你們是怎麼看?"},{"start":489.144,"end":489.945,"text":"所以你現在是跟勞動部是一國的嗎?"},{"start":509.583,"end":527.758,"text":"我沒有平台因為在勞動部的報告裡面有一點很重要就是說其實89%的人力是不受到影響的對啦所以你們是經濟部是站在產業跟我們的勞工站在一起嘛對不對那現在要"},{"start":530.701,"end":532.924,"text":"我們有發現這個問題但是我們有去做一些配套措施"},{"start":547.741,"end":574.802,"text":"我當然知道我也希望你們站在各自己的立場來為你自己的部會所負責的業務來捍衛該捍衛勞工的該捍衛產業的我們當然就一定要做好你的本分那麼當然我希望你們三個部會就是勞動部還有我們經濟部還有我們環境部能夠好好的做三方的協調好不好讓這件事情能夠盡快的來把它完整好不好謝謝"},{"start":577.475,"end":577.981,"text":"好謝謝教育委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時40分）主席、各部會的代表，大家午安。我今天看到數發部有來，何部長也可以坐著休息一下，我們請數發部的陳副署長。"],["主席：好，請陳副署長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：陳副署長，你好。我想請教你一個問題，就是業者在網路上販賣違法的東西，數發部如果知道了會怎麼處理？"],["陳副署長慧敏：販賣違法的東西，跟打詐有關係的嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有。其他的你不管就對了。"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為目前我們在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的業務是只放在打詐，那其他一些違法的網路行為，你們都沒有在管？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們根據我們主管機關的部分，比如說，如果是純電商的部分，那個部分我們會去查核，然後會根據那個查核的結果來處理，那如果說是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不是你們在查，你們都不會知道就對了？那你們平常在幹嘛？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是指主動查核嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為我們數位產業署很大的一部分是在協助數位產業經濟的發展，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們只負責打詐跟其他的部分，網路亂賣東西的，你們都沒有過問？你們都不知道嗎？因為我最近發現，就是昨天的議題，就是看到很多電子煙在網路上亂賣，那當然也有在賣那個依托咪酯的，所以我想這麼嚴重的事情，你們數發部都不管嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們會看那一些業務是不是屬於我們主管的範圍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的主管範圍是什麼？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們主管的範圍就是有關數位經濟的部分，比如說是數位服務或……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個部分就不關數發部的事？"],["陳副署長慧敏：不是，因為實體的世界是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這不是實體世界啊！"],["陳副署長慧敏：實體的世界和虛擬的世界相比，虛擬的世界其實是比較大的，所以每一個部會都有自己主管的業務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這樣講，數發部給人的感覺就很幽靈，好像什麼事情都跟你們有關係，但是你們表現出來的就像現在這樣子，什麼事都跟你們沒關係。"],["陳副署長慧敏：其實我們會幫助各部會來處理一些事情，包含我們自己有的一些業務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：時間不是很多，不要講了啦！我覺得你們數發部真的要檢討。今天你們來報告，行政院因應超高齡社會提出對策，整合了15個部會，112年到115年就投入1,200億的經費，你們數發部占多少經費？占了多少經費？"],["陳副署長慧敏：抱歉，這個不是我主管的部分，我回去查，再提供給……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你怎麼什麼都不知道？那你今天來幹嘛呢？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為隔壁還有一場，所以不好意思……"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做隔壁還有一場？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們在交通委員會還有一場。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你什麼都不知道，那你來幹什麼？"],["陳副署長慧敏：抱歉抱歉，因為我針對的部分是有關……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我上去有看到一個叫做「樂齡好幫手」，這跟你們有關係吧？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有關。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊。你什麼都不知道，那你來幹嘛？"],["陳副署長慧敏：樂齡好幫手的部分是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到樂齡好幫手，累積瀏覽次數有七萬四千多次，每篇點進去的點擊次數大部分都是個位數，這是什麼原因？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為是10月下旬的時候才上線的，所以目前還在推廣期間。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們當初設計這個網頁的時候，是給誰使用的？預計是要給誰使用？給幾歲的人使用？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個部分，我們本來預計是給65歲以上的，但是後來院裡面有協商，所以我們現在是他的照顧者也是可以使用，所以通常50歲以上的也是OK的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是壯世代就對了？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們回歸到今天的主題，我們請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們審查壯世代產業政策與產業發展促進法草案，我想最上位的政策綱領應該是高齡社會白皮書，並制訂因應超高齡社會對策方案，在112年到115年，共有15個部會，投入1,200億元，營造友善的高齡社會。勞動部在108年底也公布了中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法，今天這一部法，我們可望進一步落實壯世代產業創生。我看了各部會的報告，幾乎都沒有回應這部法，都在自己講自己的工作，你覺得問題在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們事實上現在都已經在做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我有看到你們是在研議壯世代社會參與促進方案。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這就是行政院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以行政院現在的態度是要提方案，而不是要提這個促進法就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：是的。第一個，我們贊成壯世代這一個反年齡歧視的概念，這個我們絕對支持，可是要上綱為法律就值得商榷，所以比較保留，那我們現在是用行政院因應超高齡社會對策方案，由陳時中政委主持，由勞動部來統籌整理，有15個部會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個方案未來是促進法的配套，還是政院版的替代方案？就是不立法就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：我們比較不傾向用立法來處理，我們用行政院這樣的行政指導的因應方案來處理。而且我們行政院本來是院長擔任社會福利委員會召集人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們都提出這個提案了，我們大家都提案了，很多委員都有在連署，那我覺得這兩者是相輔相成的，我希望行政院以及各部會團隊應該認真地嚴肅看待這部法的制定，提出可行的對策方案，儘快讓大家都能夠滿意，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們看到勞動及職業安全衛生研究所做的一份報告，表示我國實施淨零排碳政策，將衝擊我國高耗能產業，電子業首當其衝，估計明年就會有一萬人失業，這是你們講的嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個我要澄清，有一個前提，是在沒有做任何因應措施的狀況下，才會產生這樣的數字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們已經有……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你這些數字是什麼？如果沒有提一些因應措施的話，你們這些數字怎麼來的？"],["何部長佩珊：就是說，這是模型，它的模型的參數設計就是相當單純，就是說淨零碳排這樣的政策下來，可能產生對企業增加的成本，會導致它可能會解僱人，或者是裁員、關廠等等。可是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是勞動部的態度嘛，對不對？你們站在勞工的立場來看這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：是是是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我想請問一下經濟部，經濟部對於這個部分，你們是怎麼看？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，這份報告我有稍微進去看，它用CGE模型去跑，那其實我們在做這樣的模型的時候，應該還有另外一個配套措施，為什麼我們在前五、六年就是在做這種淨零的輔導？目的就是要去提升在職員工的一些在職技能。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們現在跟勞動部是一國的，看法是一樣的？"],["連次長錦漳：我們有平台，因為在勞動部的報告裡面，有一點很重要，就是說其實89%的人力是不受到影響的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，所以你們經濟部是站在產業，跟我們的勞工站在一起嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：對，我們現在跟勞動部有個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在我覺得我們的環境部是很努力地往前衝，那你們的方向跟環境部有一樣嗎？有一致嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們有發現這個問題，但是我們有去做一些配套措施、加強措施。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我當然知道，我也希望你們站在自己的立場，來為你自己的部會負責的業務來捍衛。"],["連次長錦漳：會，會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：該捍衛勞工的，該捍衛產業的，當然一定要做好你的本分。那麼當然我希望你們三個部會，就是勞動部、經濟部和環境部，能夠好好地做三方的協調，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：讓這件事情能夠儘快地來把它完整，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長、次長及署長。","接續請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}