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那麼我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈那產線的建立很重要一點就是取決訂單的市場規模我先用以離岸風機來看離岸風機啊 你看2021我們水壓機組跟塔架2023有包括機艙跟變壓器包括海事工程船到第三階段我們就有齒輪箱等等等這是逐步的你認為這個是國產化的必經過程同意嗎"},{"start":36.096,"end":56.826,"text":"是好那接下來我們看國機國造跟國艦國造一樣國機國造我們永英高加機66架包括電氣啦飛控啦發電啦航電啦這逐步要去移轉到國內那麼國艦國造部分呢比較難的是潛艦載台我們自己做那戰鬥管理系統跟壓力殼等等這些我們都試圖的要由本國廠商來生產請問這是不是我們的目標"},{"start":58.666,"end":60.007,"text":"最近我們要進M1A2坦克,我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2嗎?"},{"start":84.739,"end":107.313,"text":"很困難嘛但是我們看到一個新聞外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2居然在國外美國有一個柯博文什麼是柯博文變形金剛它是一個拖板車有沒有看過這個拖板車你認為我們本國有沒有能力因為戰車60噸的戰車主力戰車它需要一定能量的拖板車這個國內有產製能力嗎目前沒有沒有能力研發嗎"},{"start":111.772,"end":136.323,"text":"有沒有能力言嗎?報告委員目前這個拖運的拖板車我們要進口嗎?我們國家的低板的我們民間的低板車包含它在改正速度還是有的低板車對,低板的可以嗎?民間現在就有現在就有,能夠承載M1A2可以承載M1A2戰車,是的所以目前我們只需要跟美國買戰車不需要跟它連拖板車一起建我們有在這次的向量裡面採購拖板車跟拖戰車國產的?美國的"},{"start":139.384,"end":153.777,"text":"那我們美國的買了我們國產的以後是不是接續由國產的來接體我是說我們國內自己的民間的運輸公司有這樣的能量所以我們不見得需要再自行來生產我們可以跟他做這個"},{"start":158.421,"end":176.898,"text":"為什麼會這樣子?因為拖板車它除了軍需用途,平常也可以使用。美國的M911拖車,平常他們就用來拖伐木,台灣當然沒有伐木業。我要說的就是說,我們的軍需產業,除了主要的武器裝備之外,其他的周邊配備也是一個我們軍需產業力當中一個重要部門,您同意嗎?"},{"start":178.527,"end":181.93,"text":"無人機目前你認為我國全部要自製最困難的是哪個部分無人機"},{"start":202.738,"end":210.588,"text":"我想因為主要是中國他現在站在全球的這一個市佔率很高對大疆他是有量化他是"},{"start":212.865,"end":233.399,"text":"主要是便宜不是技術難度真的無人機不是高技術難度它只是量產後它的成本最低而無人機是需要大量生產才有優勢的但是其中一個光電頭目前是台灣不是沒有能力研發是因為我們訂單太少國內廠商他覺得做這個不划算你們乾脆外國自己買請問你所瞭解是不是這樣子"},{"start":234.999,"end":244.334,"text":"是沒有做嗎?這個現在都是由我們自己來做組裝。那光念求我們國內有辦法自治嗎?沒有辦法全部自治。有沒有能力自治?"},{"start":245.353,"end":264.152,"text":"我今天早上有答過類似的問題一年之內我們可以克服是的我現在要說的說不是技術門檻達不到是量產規模不具備我們台灣的廠商很厲害你叫他做樣品給你沒有問題但你叫他生產呢對不起他要做500萬你外面買50萬請問你要跟外面買還是要自己做"},{"start":265.086,"end":287.318,"text":"就是這個問題,所以我們的軍需產業要自治呢,其實不是只有考量技術門檻,不是技術門檻達不到,而是市場規模達不到,往下看。以這個舉例,Gogoro,難道這些東西,進口的電路板,控制器,馬達,台灣不能做嗎?可以。那為什麼Gogoro這個電動車,我們交通部發現問題,要它百分之百國產,它還屬於中國買這些零配件?"},{"start":289.352,"end":289.552,"text":"這是電動三輪車"},{"start":313.871,"end":333.819,"text":"其實在展現的就是說我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體它的載台它的配件其實都是考量在內像這種這樣的一個設備它具備有暫時的二列天后的運載能力也具有平時的都會裡面的商運能力這樣的一個設計台灣能不能做到部長你覺得台灣有沒有能力做出來下一頁"},{"start":337.264,"end":353.787,"text":"你認為這樣的電動三輪車我在暗示什麼未來的無人機不是步兵背著無人機上戰場啊他的後勤移動裝備維修充電都需要這樣的一個後勤補給車部長你覺得這樣的一個類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車台灣有沒有能力製作"},{"start":357.138,"end":370.834,"text":"這個我想再需要進一步了解一下很好那我希望部長的結論就是說軍工產要自主有賴國產廠商投入除了巨數門檻之外市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模"},{"start":372.896,"end":383.786,"text":"同步帶動周邊設備進入於本土產能．請國防部在3個月內提出一個評估報告．列出以無人機自主化國產化來列明潛力裝備的商品．並且建立產線的市場規模．部長可以嗎"},{"start":387.714,"end":409.442,"text":"是我想產業的市場規模在無人機的部分的話我們之前一直有在提到就是希望打入國際的供應鏈是的因為這樣子的話才能夠產有一定的經濟規模效益而且要提前部長不是只有無人機本體整個無人機在戰場上的應用它的周邊的配備也要一併考慮就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣你會考慮什麼"},{"start":411.383,"end":411.503,"text":"謝謝副部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時59分）謝謝主席，謝謝部長，不好意思，本席很快的質詢。因為部長已經在台上，本席就直接向部長請教今天有關無人機的議題。部長，我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈，產線建立有一點很重要，就是取決訂單的市場規模，本席先以離岸風機來看，2021年有水壓機組和塔架，2023年有機艙和變壓器，包括海事工程船，到第三階段，我們就有齒輪箱等等，這部分是逐步發展，您也認為這是國產化的必經過程。同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來我們看國機國造和國艦國造。一樣，國機國造的部分，勇鷹高教機66架，包括電器、飛控、發電、航電，都要逐步移轉到國內。國艦國造的部分，比較難的是潛艦載台，這部分我們自己做，戰鬥管理系統和壓力殼等等，這些我們都試圖要由本國廠商生產。請問這是不是我們的目標？"],["顧部長立雄：您說戰鬥管理系統和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是。本席是說除了載台之外，我們也希望其他部分有能力生產，包括壓力殼等等。這是我們的目標嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在當然是希望這樣，因應國防自主，各方面的自製率都能夠提升。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。好，那我們來看一下，最近我們要進口M1A2坦克，是不是這樣？我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2戰車嗎？很困難嘛！但是呢？我們有看到一則新聞，外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2戰車，在美國是由「柯博文」搭載。什麼是「柯博文」？就是變形金剛，它是一個拖板車，有沒有看過？你認為我們有沒有能力做這個拖板車？因為60噸的主力戰車需要一定能量的拖板車，這個部分國內有產製能力嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有能力研發嗎？有沒有能力研發？"],["陳參謀長建義：目前這個拖運的拖板車……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們也要進口嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：現在我們民間的低板車……現在就有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：載重、速度可以嗎？現在就有？能夠承載M1A2戰車嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：可以承載M1A2戰車，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只需要向美國買戰車，不需要連拖板車一起進口？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們有在這次的項量裡面採購拖板車和拖車……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國產的？"],["陳參謀長建義：美國的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先買美國的東西，以後是不是由國產的接替？"],["陳參謀長建義：我是說國內的民間運輸公司有這樣的能量，所以我們不見得需要自行生產，我們可以向他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：租用？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。部長，為什麼會這樣？因為拖板車除了軍需用途，平常也可以使用。美國的M911拖車，平常他們就用來拖木頭，臺灣當然沒有伐木業啦！本席要說的是，我們的軍需產業除了主要的武器裝備之外，其他的周邊配備，也是我們軍需產業鏈當中一個重要部門，您同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們往下看。無人機，我們說百分之百自製嘛！對不對？不是百分之百自製，是百分之百禁止中國製品，防堵紅色供應鏈，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然希望能夠這樣，也要求這樣做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為目前我國要自製無人機，最困難的是哪個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：主要是中國現在在全球的市占率很高，它也便宜。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，大疆有量化，而且主要是便宜，不是技術難度。真的，無人機不是高技術難度，只是量產後他們的成本最低，而無人機需要大量生產才有優勢。其中的光電球，目前臺灣不是沒有能力研發，是因為我們的訂單太少，國內廠商覺得做這個不划算，所以乾脆向外國買。請問你了解的是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛？"],["李院長世強：這個現在都是我們自己組裝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國內有辦法自製光電球嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有辦法全部自製。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有能力自製？"],["李院長世強：我今天早上有答詢過類似的問題，一年之內我們可以克服。我們現在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。本席現在要說的是，不是技術門檻達不到，是量產規模不具備。臺灣的廠商很厲害，你叫他們做個樣品給你，沒有問題，但你叫他們生產呢？對不起，他們做要500萬元，你們到外面買是50萬元，請問你要到外面買，還是要自己做？就是這個問題。所以我們的軍需產業要自製，其實不是只考量技術門檻，因為不是技術門檻達不到，而是市場規模達不到。","以Gogoro舉例，難道這些進口的電路板、控制器、馬達，臺灣不能做嗎？可以，那為什麼Gogoro的電動車在交通部發現問題之後，要他們百分之百國產，但他們還是去中國買這些零配件？因為便宜嘛！性價比嘛！部長，這樣了解嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們現在說最後的結論。你看一下，這是很簡單的兩則影片，您猜猜看這是什麼，這是電動三輪車。"],["顧部長立雄：一種電動的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實這部分要展現的，就是我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體，它的載台、配件都要考量在內。像這樣的設備，它具備在戰時惡劣天候的運載能力，也具有平時在都會地區的商運能力，這樣的設計，臺灣能不能做到？部長，你覺得臺灣有沒有能力做這樣的電動三輪車？你認為本席在暗示什麼？未來不是由步兵背著無人機上戰場，它的後勤移動、裝備維修、充電都需要這樣的後勤補給車，部長，你覺得這樣類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車，臺灣有沒有能力製作？"],["顧部長立雄：這個需要進一步了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。本席希望部長做什麼呢？結論就是軍工產業要自主，有賴國產廠商投入，除了技術門檻之外，市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因。無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模，同步帶動周邊設備建立本土產能，請國防部在3個月內提出一份評估報告，以無人機自主化、國產化列明潛力裝備的商品，並且建立產線的市場規模。部長，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。我想產業的市場規模，在無人機的部分，我們之前一直有提到，就是希望打入國際的供應鏈，因為這樣才能夠有一定的經濟規模效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。而且要提醒部長，不是只有無人機本體，整個無人機在戰場上的應用，包括周邊配備，也要一併考慮，就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣，你還會考慮什麼？包括它的拖板車，因為平常移訓、移防要使用，戰時讓它自己到達戰場，但是平時不需要消耗珍貴的履帶壽命。所以本席建議，無人機的部分要考量到它的周邊配備，好不好？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。請國防部3個月提出評估報告給鍾佳濱委員，謝謝部長。先休息5分鐘。","休息（12時6分）","繼續開會（12時13分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會，下午是由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢。接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}