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中部非常重要的兩個橋樑"},{"start":113.877,"end":136.859,"text":"那年代已經很久遠啦我們經不起這個橋樑有任何的散失這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情但以前只要部長同意院長同意就解決了對不對那這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了啦因為就如同局長所講的全台灣那個省道要修的道路橋樑這麼多嘛但現在更複雜了"},{"start":138.24,"end":155.11,"text":"因為現在啊如果在野黨不審預算啊我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷逮捕這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛預算沒過新興計畫是沒有錯這個我很了解我在立法院那麼久了我很了解所以又比以前更困難了但是不管多困難啊"},{"start":156.15,"end":179.33,"text":"我想民眾對於這些他們期待趕快政府期待政府要做的事情那第一關要先部裡面跟行政院要同意吧所以部長你要記得這件事情因為前任前面兩個部長都答應本席一定會跟行政院記者我也會跟行政院長來做一個報告來爭取好不好那之後我們再來看看立法院對這個預算的審查要怎麼來處理第二個問題這個"},{"start":183.206,"end":205.776,"text":"民眾其實不斷的反映臺中的市民也是這個樣子就是這個今天大家在討論這個運輸特別像公車人力不足的問題那這個人力不足就導致這個托班嚴重你看這個隨便這個新聞報導臺北市托班嚴重對不對臺中市這個公車駕駛荒深夜末班車下午4點就開走"},{"start":206.596,"end":225.676,"text":"長輩等沒車啦其實不只長輩等沒有車啦我想過去這一年來很多的上班族上學的同學啊這個因為拖班導致比如說很多學生他就遲到了嘛他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的他都算好了結果那一班沒來"},{"start":226.991,"end":252.421,"text":"他去學校就遲到了然後有一些上班的也因為沒來他也上班也遲到了所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大剛剛討論過的我就不再重複了部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法讓這個問題可以解決這是一回事但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情你要督促各地方政府就是據時已報"},{"start":254.468,"end":282.51,"text":"你讓你公車明明15分鐘你就沒有辦法來一班嘛因為你的司機明顯就不足了嘛但是你讓消費者讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班結果你就給我拖班所以他本來可以自己你告訴他因為我沒有辦法請到我這個市長無能我市長沒有辦法處理到這個事情所以我15分鐘一班的公車我現在告訴你30分鐘一班"},{"start":284.005,"end":307.357,"text":"那上班上學的同學們跟這些上班族、市民朋友們他就知道說現在30分鐘一班那我該自己不行的我就要想辦法搭UBER或者搭計程車或者自己開車或者什麼這個才讓人家有預期嘛不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴幾號公車又拖班、幾號公車又拖班害他遲到"},{"start":308.973,"end":325.911,"text":"喔 這個真的是不勝美舉啊那為什麼地方政府你不好好地把你就你就有困難你就請不上你市長就要出來解決嘛你要告訴大家實話啊你不可以每次都一直拖班啊所以部長這個可不可以請我們的監理單位這個上級"},{"start":326.651,"end":354.36,"text":"監理這個這個去好好的處理一下這個問題我們有請公路總局針對這個市區公車的部分合理性的班表再做檢討我們會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討合理性的班表是為什麼一方面是要讓民眾知道我什麼時候有車什麼時候沒車這個要務實要講實話那第二就是說時間也不要拉得太緊因為有時候公車的駕駛他為了趕時間你用那種不合理的班表他就要趕時間就要開很快沒錯"},{"start":355.06,"end":378.619,"text":"所以也危險所以合理性的頒表我們會再努力沒錯這個一定要努力啦就是說我其實大家不是趕你那個車子而是因為你讓我預期你告訴我你上面告訴我這個幾分鐘15分鐘一班車或者20分鐘一班車但是不是這樣子嘛那個都是參考用的那這個就很嚴重了這個就跟過去我們昨天在罵台鐵是一樣的問題嘛"},{"start":380.02,"end":402.388,"text":"所以這個一定要加強監督啦好不好這個要當成跟地方政府這個監督的重點再來另外這個遊覽車的評鑑我看了一下好像這個112年度又比110年度這個甲等跟乙等好像甲等就越來越少乙等越來越多啦這個我想請教一下我們如果得到優等有什麼獎勵局長是不是"},{"start":405.502,"end":424.415,"text":"我們大概就是說對於就是說業者的一些管理他的強度優等就會變得比較低比如說他到公司的一些查核的這個頻率就會比較少那對於就像比如說不列等我們就每個月都去一等的話比如一劑那第二個跟各位報告就是優等的我們都公告"},{"start":425.075,"end":453.422,"text":"有等假等公告公告以後其實我們也就是說宣導這個旅行社還有學校他們就是要去看租車的時候你公告就在我們交通部的網站我們網站還有就是說像車子我們也宣導車子旁邊車門有QR code其實他一般的民眾掃一下就知道說這個業者大概是平等是怎麼樣這個喔局長這個分消極面跟積極面消極面我們當然就是要防範"},{"start":454.893,"end":478.774,"text":"業者都大家亂來嘛所以你要有一套評鑑來督促要求他們但是我覺得這個積極面不夠啦就你要讓大家努力去做一個好人優秀的人做一個讓大家肯定的人那你就要有一些獎勵嘛我們孩子功課好頒獎功課進步我們也頒獎"},{"start":481.045,"end":505.528,"text":"他就是公開啊直接就是公開這樣做嘛那你要讓大家努力往上爬是因為直接講這是商業行為讓他有誘因嘛這是誘因設計的問題嘛如果我因為這樣譬如說我拿特優的假設啦政府都優先政府要聘遊覽車我都直接從特優開始特優沒有我才找甲等"},{"start":506.428,"end":524.416,"text":"那我的獎勵我讓所有使用遊覽車大量的跟政府相關的業者相關的機關我都發函告訴他甚至我的甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子這台車米其林三星的"},{"start":526.172,"end":544.774,"text":"你現在去餐廳走路看到那個米其林你就會覺得說這間應該不會踩雷啦所以一樣的道理嘛我們要做評鑑你就要真的把它落實啦消極面我們不能只處理消極面好像只是抓害蟲我們要鼓勵才對"},{"start":545.885,"end":560.367,"text":"另外業者也會有一些抱怨就是我們幾乎都是這個叫我們就招標嘛專家學者啦或者什麼單位來招標標評鑑遊覽車啦我不反對因為總是要有人去評鑑嘛"},{"start":561.388,"end":589.079,"text":"但是我的意思是說這個評鑑當然項目我看過具體清楚但是是不是憑藉這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等是不是我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通因為業者的抱怨意思就是說學者都活在外太空的世界裡面實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的"},{"start":590.497,"end":618.972,"text":"這個內容所以這個我是建議多溝通啦因為說實在話你怎麼定都有人你怎麼定都有人有意見但是你要讓多數的業者覺得參加這一個評鑑他是覺得有意義的好不好這個我們再加強一下那最後一個大家今天討論這個外送平台其實怎麼定本席沒有意見但是怎麼定交通部這個困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要適應"},{"start":620.353,"end":647.467,"text":"當然要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平台業者也要贏啦對那透明是第一步啦是就是因為你不透明大家相互猜忌嘛對外送員一定覺得說我收到錢你都留大部分的利潤留在平台我外送員只領一點點但是如果你實際當然我不瞭解啦但是如果我實際從報章雜誌去看到的"},{"start":649.775,"end":667.826,"text":"平台幾乎都虧錢嘛我不知道台灣的平台是不是賺錢平台在台灣應該是賺錢不然他那個併購我聽說他併購的價值要花308億那個主委那個我們那個公平會李主委來麻煩一下平台業者在台灣賺錢還是虧錢"},{"start":671.896,"end":698.799,"text":"這個每個兩個平台業者的營運狀況不同是不是賺錢可能要他們不是申請要申請要併購嗎資料送來沒有申請有一些文件已經到有一些文件那你看了文件他們是賺錢還是虧錢這個從文件上很難就是說賺不賺錢要從很多面向沒關係沒關係就是他們基本有財報嘛是主委如果你覺得這個是不可以公佈的你也可以告訴本席"},{"start":700.083,"end":725.131,"text":"所以如果你覺得說這個是可以公佈的因為我看報章雜誌他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利嘛所以全球的這個平台業者都在哭說他們已經幾十年成立十年來聊話者已經都在講這個嘛所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢嘛我做一個閱聽者我也覺得他虧錢的但聽部長講起來好像不一定或許國家有差別所以我問你台灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢"},{"start":727.979,"end":746.865,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個兩家營業額營業額大概就是去年是600億跟500億台幣對那福平台我們知道他今年有轉就是有轉正了是有賺錢賺錢了啦好那這個齁要做到透明如果連這個都不能公佈剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能了"},{"start":748.72,"end":774.056,"text":"因為你沒有公開的財報你如何未來我們政府當政府要去介入現在看起來是沒有人沒有人要當爐主這到底要誰來管沒有人要當這個法如果要定專法要定沒有爐主但不管怎麼樣爐主是誰以後我們在這個要討論但重點在於公開透明的第一步就像上市公司一樣他的財報讓大家很清楚"},{"start":774.827,"end":803.884,"text":"他每一單他的毛利多少、利率多少要清楚我們才可以大家才可以要談判的過程裡面才有一個準則嘛我不知道這個是不是應該要可不可以公平會你們當你們看到要併購的時候這個東西是不是可以公佈啦我不知道齁我剛剛問你所以你可以公佈你就告訴本席你不可以公佈你就隱晦其講但是你試想如果這個是不可以公佈的那政府要如何去介入讓他公開透明"},{"start":805.539,"end":825.139,"text":"這個本身我們就矛盾了啦這個本身就矛盾了所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過他的財報攤在陽光下你要說服這個這個我們的辛苦的外送員才可以知道告訴你說這是什麼你分這個錢合不合理嘛因為我們的貨運"},{"start":827.877,"end":848.36,"text":"運輸貨運管理業我們有這些同業的大家可以來看他的這個標準是什麼這個才可以有做到這個嘛然後我也覺得很奇怪交通部要來管這個齁那個郵差有沒有專法那個我從小我們就看他騎摩托車啊他也在送東西耶他是依照什麼法來管理是依照這個郵政法"},{"start":848.94,"end":860.142,"text":"還有這種依照郵政法來管理嘛那未來郵政法跟你你送信的叫做郵政法那送食物的那是什麼法"},{"start":860.814,"end":889.296,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在就是說送郵物的部分跟一般貨物的部分包括這一個外送的部分原則上在法規上是有一條線對那一條線的界線是什麼那條線的部分因為它那個就是說這一個郵件的部分的話就是偏向這個就是書面這些相關的東西那像這一個郵局它如果說遞送包裹那也是算是送貨了"},{"start":890.237,"end":915.078,"text":"所以你看喔 我不問這個問題喔 大家又不是傻傻啦阿你剛剛解釋我聽起來還是不是傻傻啦阿所以誰要來主管這個事情我就會立刻想到你交通部你也有郵差阿阿郵差也是騎著摩托車在送阿阿他的 我貼了郵票讓他送到 我付了錢讓他去送那他到底郵差抽多少"},{"start":916.627,"end":929.525,"text":"這個都是問題啦我沒有答案我只是點出來說到底誰要來管這個因為他的商業模式很簡單嘛他一樣有送貨的部分但是他的接單卻是數位的平台"},{"start":930.816,"end":955.962,"text":"然後呢它是跟店家又要連結然後消費者又要付費嘛對不對所以它看起來這個環節裡面很複雜嘛所以不要掛一漏萬啦不要說到時候齁換郵差來說欸啊我送這個我領這個薪水因為我好像送的單比我的同事多捏我的件數啊我送票齁我都一天我都送100斤他送50斤他才會到我那樣"},{"start":959.005,"end":986.932,"text":"我們郵差沒有這個我們才是進去哪一個幾等就領多少薪水嘛 對不對對所以這個都要整體考量啦本席覺得要適應啦要大家都贏這個管理政府的介入才有意義啦不然或者你這個就是裡外不是人啦這個你怎麼做都會有問題嘛就像要公開透明我剛剛問李主委他看起來這個要回答得很保守嘛 對不對這怎麼公開透明呢"},{"start":987.984,"end":994.175,"text":"時間的關係啦市長有空再到我辦公室來跟我講一下郵差的事情好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時44分）謝謝主席，請陳部長、林司長跟陳局長。"],["主席：陳部長、林司長還有陳局長，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：三位早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間有限，今天有幾個問題就教，第一個關於台1線大甲溪橋的改建工程、大安溪橋的改建工程，本席一直以來非常關心，這些年來我們不斷的會勘，也開過多次的協調會議。基本上交通部的態度是全力支持，無論是過去幾任的部長都是支持，我想陳部長應該也是支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：重點來了，就是預算經費龐大，部裡面公路局曾經跟本席報告過，這個要特別請行政院支持，我想請問局長，目前的狀況、預算的狀況大概是如何？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我們新一期的省改計畫有提報到行政院，整體的匡列經費，因為省道上面確實有很多的道路跟橋梁要做。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，要做。"],["陳局長文瑞：我們自己評估已經匡列的經費，對於一些新增的，因為這個是算新增的改建工程，可能在經費上面比較不足，所以我們大概也會再爭取。一種就是匡列的經費未來可以再增加或是修正，另外一種就是，譬如說提專案的計畫去跟行政院爭取。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，部長，這個部分你應該要積極一下。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為以前要努力，譬如說只要部長同意，送到行政院，對於新興的這個計畫是民眾需要的，因為大甲溪、大安溪是台1線當中，中部非常重要的兩個橋梁，年代已經很久遠了，我們經不起這個橋梁有任何的閃失，這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情。以前只要部長同意、院長同意，就解決了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了，因為如同局長所講的，全臺灣省道要修的道路、橋梁這麼多。那現在更複雜了，因為現在如果在野黨不審預算，我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷待哺，這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：預算沒過，新興計畫是完全不能動。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，這個我很了解，我在立法院那麼久了，我很了解，所以又比以前更困難了，但是不管多困難，我想民眾對於這些他們期待政府要趕快做的事情，第一關部裡面跟行政院要同意。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以部長要記得這件事情。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為前面兩個部長都答應本席，一定會跟行政院積極爭取。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也會跟行政院長做一個報告來爭取，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：之後我們再來看看立法院對於這個預算的審查，要怎麼來處理。第二個問題，民眾其實不斷的反映，臺中的市民也是這個樣子，就是今天大家在討論運輸，特別像公車人力不足的問題。人力不足就導致脫班嚴重，你看這個隨便的新聞報導，臺北市脫班嚴重，對不對？臺中市公車駕駛荒！深夜末班車下午4點就開走，長輩等嘸車，其實不只長輩等沒有車啦！"],["陳部長世凱：所有人都等不到車。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想過去這一年來，很多的上班族、上學的同學，因為脫班導致，譬如說很多學生就遲到了，他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的，他都算好了，結果那一班車沒來，他去學校就遲到了。然後有一些上班的也因為車沒來，他上班也遲到了，所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大。","剛剛討論過的我就不再重複，部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法，讓這個問題可以解決，這是一回事，但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情，你要督促各地方政府據實以報。明明公車沒辦法15分鐘來一班，因為你的司機明顯不足，但是你讓消費者、讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班車，結果你就給我脫班。你告訴他，因為我沒有辦法請到司機，我這個市長無能，沒有辦法處理好這件事情，所以15分鐘一班的公車，我現在告訴你30分鐘一班，這些上班、上學的同學們、上班族跟市民朋友們，他們就知道現在是30分鐘一班，不行的就要想辦法搭Uber、搭計程車或者自己開車等等，這個才讓人家有預期嘛！不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴，幾號公車又脫班、幾號公車又脫班害他遲到，這個真的是不勝枚舉。為什麼地方政府你有困難，請不到工，市長就要出來解決嘛！你要告訴大家實話，你不可以每次都一直脫班啊！部長，可不可以請我們的上級好好的處理一下這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有請公路總局針對市區公車的部分，合理性的班表再做檢討，我會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討，合理性的班表是為什麼？一方面是要讓民眾知道什麼時候有車，什麼時候沒車，這個要務實，要講實話。第二就是時間也不要拉得太緊，因為有時候公車的駕駛為了趕時間，你用那種不合理的班表，他就要趕時間，就要開很快。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：這樣相對也危險。"],["蔡委員其昌：是。"],["陳部長世凱：所以合理性的班表我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，這個一定要努力。其實大家不是趕你那個車子，而是因為你讓我預期，你告訴我15分鐘一班車，或者20分鐘一班車，但是不是這樣子，那個都是參考用的，這個就很嚴重了。這個就跟我們昨天在罵臺鐵是一樣的問題，所以這個一定要加強監督好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個要當成跟地方政府監督的重點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外關於遊覽車的評鑑，我看了一下112年度比110年度的甲等跟乙等，好像甲等越來越少，乙等越來越多。我想請教一下，我們如果得到優等，有什麼獎勵？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們對於業者的管理強度，優等就會變得比較低，比如說到公司的查核頻率就會比較少，對於不列等的我們就每個月都去，乙等的話比如說一季。第二個跟各位報告，就是優等的我們都會公告，優等、甲等都會公告，公告以後其實我們也就是宣導旅行社，還有學校，他們就是要去看，租車的時候就會特別……"],["蔡委員其昌：公告就在我們交通部的網站嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們的網站，還有就是車子，我們也宣導車子旁邊、車門有QR Code，其實一般的民眾掃一下就知道這個業者的評等大概是怎麼樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，局長，這個分消極面跟積極面，消極面我們當然就是要防範業者大家亂來，所以你要有一套評鑑來督促、要求他們。但是我覺得積極面不夠，就是你要讓大家努力去做一個好人，優秀的人，做一個讓大家肯定的人，你就要有一些獎勵。我們的孩子功課好就頒獎，功課進步我們也頒獎。他就是公開，直接就是公開這樣做，你要讓大家努力往上爬，是因為直接講這是商業行為，要讓他有誘因，這是誘因設計的問題嘛！如果我因為這樣，譬如我拿特優的，假設啦！政府都優先，政府要聘遊覽車都直接從特優開始，特優沒有才找甲等。我的獎勵，我讓所有使用遊覽車，大量的跟政府相關的業者、相關的機關，我都發函告訴他。甚至甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子，這台車米其林三星，你現在去餐廳，走路看到那個米其林，哇！這是米其林的餐廳，你就會覺得這間應該不會踩雷。一樣的道理，我們要做評鑑，你就要真的把它落實。我們不能只處理消極面，好像只是抓害蟲，我們要鼓勵才對。","另外，業者也會有一些抱怨，就是我們幾乎都是招標，專家學者或者什麼單位來標評鑑遊覽車。我不反對，因為總是要有人去評鑑，但是我的意思是這個評鑑，當然項目我看過，具體清楚，但是不是評鑑這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等，是不是？我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通，因為業者抱怨的意思就是，那些學者都活在外太空的世界裡面，實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目，不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的這個內容，所以我是建議多溝通啦！因為說實在話，你怎麼定都有人……"],["陳部長世凱：這個內容要讓業者清楚啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你怎麼定都有人有意見，但是你要讓多數的業者覺得，參加這個評鑑是有意義的，好不好？這個我們再加強一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後一個，大家今天討論外送平臺，其實怎麼定本席沒有意見，但是交通部的困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要四贏，要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平臺業者也要贏。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：透明是第一步，就是因為你不透明，大家相互猜忌。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：外送員一定覺得你收一筆錢進來，大部分的利潤留在平臺，我外送員只領一點點。當然，我不了解，但是如果我實際從報章雜誌上看到的，平臺幾乎都虧錢。我不知道臺灣的平臺是不是賺錢？"],["陳部長世凱：平臺在臺灣應該是賺錢，不然他那個併購，我聽說他併購的價值要花308億。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我們的公平會李主委，麻煩來一下。平臺業者在臺灣賺錢還是虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩個平臺業者的營運狀況不同，是不是賺錢可能要……"],["蔡委員其昌：他們不是申請要併購嗎？資料送來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有一些文件已經到了，有一些文件還沒有到。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那你看了文件，他們是賺錢還是虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個從文件上很難……就是賺不賺錢要從很多面向來看。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，就是他們基本有財報，主委，如果你覺得這個是不可以公布的，你也可以告訴本席，如果你覺得這個是可以公布的，因為我看報章雜誌，他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利，所以全球的這個平臺業者都在哭說，他們成立10年來虧了多少錢，都在講這個。所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢，我做一個閱聽者，我也覺得他虧錢，但聽部長講起來好像不一定，或許國家有差別，所以我問你臺灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我請處長說明一下。"],["林處長慶堂：跟委員報告，那兩家營業額，去年是600億跟500億臺幣，我們知道foodpanda今年有轉正了，是有賺錢。"],["蔡委員其昌：賺錢了，好。這個要做到透明，如果連這個都不能公布，剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能，因為你沒有公開的財報，未來我們政府要如何去介入？現在看起來是沒有人要當爐主，這到底要誰來管？沒有人要當，這個專法如果要訂定，沒有爐主啦！但不管怎麼樣，爐主是誰以後我們再討論，但重點在於公開透明的第一步，就像上市公司一樣，它的財報要讓大家很清楚，它每一單的毛利多少，利率多少要清楚，我們在談判的過程裡面才有一個準則。我不知道這個是不是可以公布，公平會當你們看到要併購的時候，這個東西是不是可以公布，我不知道。我剛剛問你，所以你可以公布你就告訴本席，不可以公布你就隱晦的講。但是你試想，如果這個是不可以公布的，那政府要如何去介入，讓它公開透明？這個本身就矛盾了，所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過它的財報攤在陽光下，你要說服我們辛苦的外送員，才可以告訴你說這是什麼，你分這個錢合不合理，因為我們的貨運運輸、貨運管理業，我們有這些同業的，大家可以來看它的這個標準是什麼，這才可以做到。","然後我也覺得很奇怪，交通部要來管這個，那郵差有沒有專法？我從小就看他騎摩托車，他也在送東西，他是依照什麼法來管理？"],["林司長福山：他是依照郵政法。"],["蔡委員其昌：他依照郵政法來管理，送信的叫郵政法，那送食物的是什麼法？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，現在就是送郵物的部分，跟一般貨物的部分，包括外食的部分，原則上在法規上是有一條線的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那一條線的界線是什麼？"],["林司長福山：那條線的部分，因為郵件的部分就是偏向書面這些相關的東西，像郵局遞送包裹也是算送貨了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你看，我不問這個問題，大家還「霧嗄嗄」。你剛剛的解釋我聽起來還是「霧嗄嗄」，所以誰要來主管這個事情？我就會立刻想到交通部也有郵差啊！郵差也是騎著摩托車在送，我貼了郵票讓他送到，我付了錢讓他去送，那到底郵差抽多少？這個都是問題，我沒有答案，我只是點出來到底誰要來管這個，因為他的商業模式很簡單，他一樣有送貨的部分，但是他的接單卻是數位的平臺，他跟店家又要連結，然後消費者又要付費，對不對？所以看起來這個環節裡面很複雜，所以不要掛一漏萬，不要到時候換郵差來說：我送這個，我領這個薪水，我好像送的單比我的同事多，我的件數、我送信一天送100件，他送50件，他怎麼跟我領一樣？我們的郵差沒有這個，我們是進去是哪一個級等就領多少薪水，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這個都要整體考量，本席覺得要四贏，要大家都贏，這個管理、政府的介入才有意義，否則你都是裡外不是人，這個你怎麼做都會有問題。就像要公開透明，我剛剛問李主委，他看起來要回答得很保守，對不對？這怎麼公開透明？因為時間的關係，司長有空再到我辦公室，來跟我講一下郵差的事情。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡委員。","現在時間是12點，請教一下今天列席的機關各單位，有沒有沒吃早餐的？可能要自己先去補一下，我們中午要不要休息？各機關有沒有什麼建議？都還好，如果要上廁所的請自行前往。第二個，因為今天登記的委員特別多，還有二十幾位，待會各位委員請把握時間，謝謝大家。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}