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"end":792.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.4428437500001,"end":803.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.65221875,"end":807.2465937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.951,"end":38.502,"text":"謝謝主席因為不好意思因為我實在是看不出誰是主的機關所以我就麻煩請今天列席的官員請大家上台謝謝那個吃便當你就坐著繼續吃沒吃的吃完再過來好不好好謝謝慢慢吃啦不要噎到"},{"start":46.964,"end":52.068,"text":"我國的總人口數將低於2300萬人。"},{"start":78.654,"end":102.012,"text":"在就是統計顯示45歲到65歲的工作人口在2037年就會突破五成那顯示說勞動人口高齡化將成為一個趨勢因此我們今天討論的這個中高齡的相關政策計劃是有它的必要性那今天這個草案裡面"},{"start":102.552,"end":118.152,"text":"的確有一些需要被討論的問題首先就如同我剛剛不知道要請誰上來我們的主責或者主管機關並不是很明確在這部草案裡面"},{"start":119.053,"end":143.118,"text":"草案裏面的就是說由行政院下設的這個壯世代政策辦公室它統籌整合各目的事業主管機關的權責並且是由這個行政院長擔任召集人所以各機關首長還有政委、學者、專家擔任委員那所以按照這樣的一個邏輯今天理應站在這裡來備詢的應該是行政院長"},{"start":146.021,"end":154.433,"text":"我本來是想請教昭偉說我如果現在會議詢問說我們要不要暫停大家一起等那個院長來這裡備詢那我們先等昭偉一下"},{"start":159.509,"end":161.591,"text":"目前我們好像沒有這樣的慣例吧應該沒有"},{"start":185.672,"end":206.783,"text":"那就是說所以我也不曉得就是說未來如何能夠執行的好以這樣子的一個設計來看那舉例而言部會首長負責的業務被討論的時候然後他自己本身又是委員那他扮演的角色就會有衝突嗎"},{"start":208.704,"end":236.191,"text":"那有說代表部會的委員你在會議中然後你要報告你的執行成效然後你又可以提出檢討的意見本席對於這些兼任委員的機關首長還有政委你們必須要用這種人格分離的方式角色扮演我是感到就是說無限的同情那針對這一點不曉得哪一位可以來說明一下"},{"start":237.591,"end":262.506,"text":"非常感謝委員的隨詢因為確實陳副委員剛剛所說的這個確實在整個主責跟這一個相當主管機關確實是相當有不明確性的問題那因此我們現在目前其實在院裡面其實本來我們就有一個我們的一個高齡社會白皮書還有另外有一個我們另外有一個郵政委他來擔任我們跨部會之間的協調那到目前為止其實運作上老實說也相當的這一個順暢"},{"start":263.747,"end":267.369,"text":"您們內部運作順暢但是到時候你們要開始報告的時候又要提出意見的時候到時候這個分裂的狀態人格分裂的狀態就會呈現出來所以反正我就"},{"start":291.022,"end":293.364,"text":"第二條這個壯世代政策的定義本期認為太過於偏狹"},{"start":317.845,"end":317.865,"text":"對,沒錯。"},{"start":339.535,"end":365.467,"text":"所以要這個協助他們持續成為生產者還有消費者然後提升他們的生活品質降低社會福利的負擔我想這樣的定義齁其實也是跟我們目前各部會都已經在做的政策其實沒有區隔我們是有往那個方向舉例說勞動部主管的這個中高齡及高齡者的這個就業促進法"},{"start":367.128,"end":389.19,"text":"那不就是這個法就已經是讓他們在持續就業成為這個經濟的生產者嗎?對不對?那再相較說第一條的這個立法目的這個如海嘯般翻轉的格局這樣子的定義是實在是我看是有點很這個虎頭蛇尾然後狗尾敘雕啦"},{"start":390.23,"end":410.775,"text":"因為本席認為這一點,就是也是大家要重新去審視。你們有沒有要回應一下這個部分?是委員,對,就是您可以選的事,就是您講的問題就處在這裡,對。好,對,就是那如果沒有能賺能花又活蹦亂跳那幾百萬的就被歧視了嗎?對。"},{"start":415.316,"end":428.766,"text":"那再來就是第三點就是這個草案呢好多好多的重點就像就真的重點太多然後反而看不出重點在哪裡那我們用一個這個"},{"start":430.647,"end":451.983,"text":"我今天講了很多次這個翻轉銀髮海嘯人口變遷所生的新社會放在立法精神裡面然後從而衍生出實現世代經濟的循環創造跨鄰共榮韌性永續之目標我想一般民眾的認知可能是很抽象"},{"start":452.932,"end":465.712,"text":"那甚至就是會覺得不曉得要做什麼感覺阿本席的直覺是阿經濟循環就是沒有垃圾的意思阿世代的經濟循環阿世代不是在講人嗎"},{"start":467.423,"end":470.125,"text":"所以每個人都必須成為有用的人"},{"start":497.303,"end":517.266,"text":"我也是覺得很疑惑所以我們大家是不是來思考一下如何讓這個民眾能夠更了解這部法案的精神與目的所以第一條本席也是建議大家就要好好的討論一下這偉大的翻轉印法海嘯以及人的經濟循環我很在意這件事情"},{"start":518.166,"end":533.424,"text":"好那最後一點呢就是有關於第15條的健康預期壽命的統計這點的利益非常良好但是我們現行所謂的平均餘命跟這個平均餘命這個差別是在哪裡可不可以回答一下OK好"},{"start":534.706,"end":559.607,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前的整個所謂的通常這是WHO他們也有一個定義就是所謂的Disabled Disabled Health Year就主要指的是屬於需要長照的這是WHO他們有一個特定的一個定義那現在目前就是說我們現在目前的預期壽命當然這是屬於人口學他們的一個定義那我們現在目前我們承認我們現在目前確實有8.585年的這一個"},{"start":562.449,"end":568.894,"text":"市長講的就是我們早就有這個不同世代的這個平均移民的統計啦但是現在在這個草案加上了這個健康預期壽命這到底是要怎麼樣的調整"},{"start":589.57,"end":596.687,"text":"舉例喔就是說身患重病的人他可能可以延續很長的存活時間一直躺在病床上"},{"start":597.822,"end":625.988,"text":"但是因為不健康所以他的品質生活品質就是很差嘛對沒錯那健康與其壽命你要怎麼計算而且健康的定義他是一門專業那這個當然這個世界衛生組織的定義也涉及到就是說精神跟心理的層面是沒錯所以這個將來要發布健康與其壽命相較於平均餘命一定會比較短"},{"start":628.529,"end":645.975,"text":"將來你要怎麼去解釋說明說這兩個估計值是相差越少還是相差越多才能夠凸顯這個國家的進步這個是大家要去思考的問題那這個也是非常的專業我們就是要請專家學者專業人士來規範會比較好啦"},{"start":652.177,"end":674.323,"text":"我能簡單補充一下您剛剛所說確實沒錯現在在國際上面這個其實都還有一些爭論我舉個例子比如說有一個叫做ICOP就是所謂的健康與命的一個估計另外一個是WHO他們自己本身的定義可是在學界裡面其實基本上大概都還有一些不同的看法所以目前有明確的研究方法嗎"},{"start":674.923,"end":675.163,"text":"總體就是說"},{"start":699.982,"end":725.802,"text":"欸這樣說來就是整個中高齡的這個政策齁因為我現在我很不想用壯世代因為按照這個草案的定義我真的覺得人不能成為沒有用的人對沒錯沒錯那欸欸委員對不起我能不能再簡單說一下就是說張委員請坐我要抗議喔剛才你對楊瓊英委員很好他有三倍的時間所以我不要求比照辦理我兩倍就好我剛有在算啊五倍喔對不起那"},{"start":727.944,"end":742.944,"text":"陳瑩﹚陳瑩"},{"start":742.944,"end":762.978,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":763.018,"end":792.401,"text":"好那就是就是說這個內容吼草案內容我們確實有很多的疑問跟自愛難行之處那我想我也相信說我們這個圖法不足以執行啦那我們不應該就是為了要求快然後就突然通過了一部將來這個難以執行的法案所以也謝謝昭緯今天明智的抉擇我們還沒有開始怎麼發言他就說好辦公聽會那我也就自動"},{"start":793.141,"end":793.261,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時10分）謝謝主席。不好意思！因為我實在看不出誰是主責機關，所以我就麻煩今天列席的官員，請大家上台，謝謝。吃便當的就坐著繼續吃，等吃完再過來，慢慢吃，不要噎到了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：大家好。勞動部最勇敢！你們不要把勞動部長推到麥克風前面。","依據國發會在17日公布的中華民國人口推估，從2024年到2070年的報告，至2030年開始我國的總人口數將低於2,300萬人。統計顯示45歲到65歲的工作人口在2037年就會突破五成，表示勞動人口高齡化將成為一個趨勢，因此，我們今天討論的中高齡相關政策計畫是有它的必要性。","今天這個草案的確有一些需要被討論的問題，首先，如同我剛剛不知道要請誰上台，因為在這部草案裡我們的主責或主管機關並不是很明確，在草案裡寫到由行政院下設壯世代政策辦公室，它統籌整合各目的事業主管機關的權責，並且是由行政院長擔任召集人，所以各機關首長、政委及學者專家擔任委員，按照這樣的一個邏輯，今天站在這裡備詢的理應是行政院長。我本來是想請教召委，如果現在我提出會議詢問，要不要暫停，大家一起等院長來這裡備詢，召委，你要等嗎？我們先等召委一下，好啦！我放過他。按照這個邏輯，今天應該是卓院長要來這裡備詢嘛！我們用辦公室這個層級去實行整個委員制的統整，目前我們好像沒有這樣的慣例吧！應該沒有！因此，以這樣的設計來看，我也不知道未來如何能夠執行得好。舉例而言，部會首長負責的業務被討論的時候，他自己本身又是委員，所以他扮演的角色就會有衝突嘛！哪有代表部會的委員在會議中要報告你的執行成效，然後你又可以提出檢討的意見。本席對於這些兼任委員的機關首長以及政委，你們必須要用這種人格分裂的方式進行角色扮演，我是感到無限的同情啦！針對這一點，不知道哪一位可以來說明一下？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的垂詢，誠如委員剛剛所說的，確實在整個主責方面及相關主管機關的部分有不明確性的問題。其實我們目前在院裡本來就有一個高齡社會白皮書，由政委擔任跨部會之間的協調，到目前為止，老實說，在運作上也相當順暢。可能大家會覺得有若干需要精進之處，但是到目前為止，因應這個問題，就整個組織而言，我想可能是最有效的一個方式。"],["陳委員瑩：雖然你們內部運作順暢，但是等到你們要開始報告的時候、同時又要提出意見的時候，人格分裂的狀態就會呈現出來，反正我就點出這個角色的矛盾，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛我在講的時候看到很多人在點頭，所以我應該是講到了重點。"],["呂次長建德：對對對，沒錯。誠如委員剛剛說的，這個部分確實是不明確，因此，在整個立法上，我們還是覺得恐怕不太適宜。"],["陳委員瑩：對，再好好想一想。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：其次，第二條是壯世代政策的定義，本席認為太過於偏狹。這個草案的明定是強迫大眾認為55歲以上的高齡者一定是能賺、能花又活蹦亂跳、沒有生病的長壽者，按照這個草案裡的定義是這樣喔！每個人就是要像一尾活龍才符合稱為壯世代。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：因此，要協助他們持續成為生產者及消費者，然後提升他們的生活品質，降低社會福利的負擔。我想這樣的定義其實與目前各部會已經在做的政策並沒有區隔，我們是有往那個方向去做了。舉例來說，勞動部主管的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法，這個法不就已經是讓他們持續就業成為經濟的生產者嗎？對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：相較於第一條的立法目的，如海嘯般翻轉的格局，這樣的定義實在是有一點虎頭蛇尾、狗尾續貂啦！本席認為這一點也是大家要重新去審視，你們有沒有要回應一下這個部分？"],["何部長佩珊：委員垂詢的是！你講的問題就是出在這裡，對。"],["陳委員瑩：對，如果沒有能賺、能花、又活蹦亂跳如同一尾活龍就被歧視了嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員瑩：第三點，這個草案有好多好多的重點，因為重點太多，反而看不出重點在哪裡。我們用這個翻轉銀髮海嘯，人口變遷所生的新社會放在立法精神裡面，從而衍生出實現世代經濟的循環，創造跨齡共榮韌性永續之目標。我想一般民眾的認知可能是很抽象，甚至會有不知道是要做什麼的感覺。至於本席的直覺，經濟循環就是沒有垃圾的意思，而世代的經濟循環，世代不就是在講人嘛！所以每個人都必須成為有用的人。","一般法案的立法目的都很明確，也很少用不是很精準的字詞去描述，例如這裡的新社會是指人口變遷，那麼我要講的是我們現在臺灣有數十萬的新住民同胞加入，難道因為他們的加入，我們現在就算是舊社會嗎？我也是覺得很疑惑！因此，我們大家是不是來思考一下，如何讓民眾能夠更了解這部法案的精神與目的。針對第一條，本席建議大家要好好討論一下，這個偉大的翻轉銀髮海嘯以及人的經濟循環，我很在意這件事情。","最後一點是關於第十五條的健康預期壽命的統計，這點的立意非常良好，但是我們現行所謂的平均餘命與這個平均餘命的差別在哪裡，誰可以回答一下？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，WHO有一個定義，也就是所謂的disabled health year，主要是指需要長照的，這是WHO特定的一個定義。我們現在的預期壽命是屬於人口學的一個定義，而我們也承認確實是有8.5年的不健康餘命，所以目前我們也透過健康臺灣的策略，希望盡快將這個gap縮短。"],["陳委員瑩：就像次長講的，我們早就有不同世代平均餘命的統計，但是現在這個草案加上健康預期壽命，到底是要怎麼樣調整？舉例，現在患重病的人可能可以延續很長的存活時間，一直躺在病床上，但是因為不健康，所以他的生活品質就是很差嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：健康預期壽命要怎麼計算？而且健康的定義是一門專業，在世界衛生組織的定義也涉及到精神與心理的層面。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：將來要發布健康預期壽命相較於平均餘命一定會比較短，那麼將來你要怎麼去解釋說明這兩個估計值是相差越少或相差越多，才能夠凸顯這個國家的進步？這個是大家要去思考的問題，但這個也是非常專業，我們要請專家學者或專業人士來規範會比較好啦！"],["呂次長建德：委員，我簡單補充一下。你剛剛說的確實沒錯，在國際上這個都還有一些爭論，我舉個例子，譬如有一個叫做ICOPE，也就是健康餘命估計，另外一個是WHO自己的定義，但是在學界裡基本上大家都還有一些不同的看法，這個部分我們會……"],["陳委員瑩：目前有明確的研究方法嗎？"],["呂次長建德：到目前為止，就我剛剛說的ICOPE與WHO，它們目前都有一些不同的定義，後續我們會做這個部分更進一步的深化研究。"],["陳委員瑩：所以目前你也是打問號啦！"],["呂次長建德：目前各家都有它自己評分的依據。"],["陳委員瑩：就是疑慮、疑慮這樣子。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：整個中高齡的政策，我很不想用壯世代這個名稱，因為按照這個草案的定義，我真的覺得人不能成為沒有用的人。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯、沒錯。委員，對不起，我能不能再簡單說一下……"],["陳委員瑩：召委，請坐，我要抗議，剛才你對楊瓊瓔委員很好，她有3倍的時間，雖然我不要求比照辦理，只要給我2倍就好，剛剛我有做計算，5倍喔！對不起！"],["主席：5分鐘了。"],["陳委員瑩：5分鐘是0.5倍而已啊！好啦！他就要補充，你就多給他時間吧！"],["呂次長建德：我只是簡單補充，國際上對於退休有一個明確定義，剛剛說是65歲，ILO對中高齡也有明確定義，就是45歲，這個就是國際上的international standard。如果我們要突破，我想可能需要更多的討論，但我只是說這是國際上大家共同的定義，這個可能……"],["陳委員瑩：搞不好我們自己很厲害，研發出一套研究方法。"],["呂次長建德：感謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我們覺得草案內容確實有很多的疑問及窒礙難行之處，而我也相信徒法不足以自行，不應該為了要求快，突然就通過了一部將來難以執行的法案，也謝謝召委今天明智的抉擇，我們還沒開始怎麼發言，他就說要辦公聽會，我也就自動早上程序不發言了。感謝召委，我就把我早上的時間挪到這裡來，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}