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對不對但是呢政府有個東西呢其實可以來導入PE跟REITS譬如說監獄、植物宿舍政府的辦公廳舍如果政府不要自己花錢興建以租代鑑"},{"start":201.512,"end":205.64,"text":"請問一下這些公共建設有沒有可能用PE或綠紙來做請問主委"},{"start":206.826,"end":235.022,"text":"這個REIT的話是要必須跟不動產做連結是的那我們有兩種東西一種是純粹是這個不動產所創造出來的金流我只針對金流不對這個不動產本身這REIT要跟不動產綁在一起這兩個有個選擇就等於當然這個假設要跟不動產本身綁在一起當然是可以用REIT來做其實這裡面這些不管是監獄、植物宿舍、辦公廳它有一種說法叫PPP我們往下看今晚會跟財政部來思考一下你們有沒有已經盤點"},{"start":242.052,"end":262.163,"text":"其實我們在未來在兆雲投資計畫裡面也有人提到就是說比如說以社宅為例政府本來要花很多錢去蓋那如果說可以交給比如說保險公司或民間公司蓋好再租給政府政府再定期給那個租金形成一個穩定的金流這就是PPB的模式嗎是的好"},{"start":263.244,"end":284.924,"text":"市長,財政部有去盤點說我們政府的很多支出部分它其實是具有PPP的性質,要去購買服務你覺得你們財政部有去協助盤點各部會有這種需求嗎?有,我們有在協助盤點而且將來我們會配合那個就是目前我們抱怨的那個兆元投資發展方案會來進行進一步的盤點"},{"start":287.074,"end":301.731,"text":"這個事情我分別問過兩次首先在財委會我問過前黃主委就是說PE跟綠紫乙類公債有相似性乙類公債就是具有自償性可以國家來發行公債把公共建設用民間的公債來做"},{"start":307.355,"end":316.341,"text":"請問彭主委你覺得是不是這些乙類公債、PE、REIT不管是以租代件用PPV的方式或是公共建設有自償性的都可以這樣做"},{"start":317.902,"end":318.643,"text":"市長說到乙類公債,您覺得是不是具有這樣的類似性?"},{"start":340.037,"end":367.848,"text":"是而且我們現在我們以我們財政部來講其實我們也在積極推動發行一類公債從108年開始我們就一直在盤點這個非營業特種基金主管機關希望他們能夠利用來市長你抬頭看一下抬頭看一下是在三年前我就問過之前的蘇部長了是就說你們有沒有促餐之外發行一類公債有沒有結果呢結果呢結果多少百分之五啊"},{"start":368.652,"end":390.487,"text":"以內功在比例低是不是代表你們沒有盤點去推動從2021年我問到現在你們推動了多少來往下看你去講我們其實都一直有在盤點但是因為它有一個自償性的特色所以可能有是因為這樣的關係各部會的意願都不高啦我還問了一個就在去年問到你們的部長"},{"start":391.138,"end":408.795,"text":"我說ESG希望你們開始從去年開始推動ESG公債然後呢要盤點哪些項目可以發債來做ESG公債你盤點後不只可以知道哪些是ESG哪些是具有自償性的而且如果你盤點過了今年的一類公債比例又可以提高請問一下"},{"start":411.254,"end":426.918,"text":"你到底能不能告訴我現在政府部門有哪些公建項目可以導入證券化今年發行的多少 比例多少 有沒有答案導入證券化這件事情因為因為證券化條例還沒有通過所以目前還沒有但是我們今年有發行一個"},{"start":430.339,"end":431.519,"text":"我們的主委跟次長看一下我的訴求只有兩點"},{"start":456.307,"end":478.588,"text":"請金管會跟財政部尤其是財政部上次問過你們了你們還是一樣盤點的效率很差請盤點具已租代鑒以及自償性適合PVP模式的公共建設三個月提出書面報告當然金管會是不負責這個已租代鑒你們就提REITS跟PE那財政部的部分可不可以提出這個部分可不可以提出來"},{"start":480.353,"end":501.377,"text":"好下面第二題請研議明年擴大發行業績公正的方案三個月提出會面報告可以嗎可以配合辦理可以喔三個月喔上次已經給你們莊部長很久的時間了從去年的十月到現在我希望下次再問到你有一些進展好不好好非常謝謝彭主委非常謝謝次長以及安副主委謝謝謝謝主席謝謝鍾佳兵委員接著我們請岳炎之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1135,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時47分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請彭主委、財政部李次長，以及國發會詹副主委。"],["主席：請彭主委、李次長、詹副主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，次長好，還有副主委好。本席今天的標題是「世代分工投資公建消費回饋公建以租代建並導入證券化」，先請教財政部次長，財政收入應該區分何種族群？核課什麼稅？我們高齡族群的資產多，年輕族群資產少，消費力能剛好相反，請問國家在稅收上，資產稅跟其他所得稅，你覺得要用什麼策略？"],["李次長慶華：高齡族群目前他的資產，當然就是所得稅，還有就是贈與稅，或者是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：青年族群呢？"],["李次長慶華：青年族群，目前我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：多列一些寬減額，因為他需要養家？"],["李次長慶華：對，基本上，目前我們是照顧他的基本生活需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高齡族群具高資產，青年族群少資產，如果你提高他的稅後可支配所得，他的消費力提高，今天有個公共建設，他去使用，譬如捷運或是一些公共設施，然後我們透過高資產稅，請這些資產者不要去投資持有高資產，引導他去投資公建，從公建的使用可以得到回饋收益。主委覺得這樣的循環是不是一個正向，可以創造國家利益的循環？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果從理論上來看，高資產族群客戶能夠承擔的投資風險比較低，假設公共建設能夠提供穩健而且具有保證的現金流，確實適合他們投資。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！標準答案！我們看下一頁，這樣有什麼好處？政府的稅收就不用都鎖定在資本門的公建，可以多投資國家的未來，像青年的住房、育兒、醫療減負擔，請問主委覺得這樣好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得過去我們編預算可能只從利息角度來看，比較沒有看到的是政府的負債跟現金流的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個東西確實是可以解決，我們的高負債以及現金流的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：少子女化的問題，國發會也要面對。國發會副主委，如果我們國家的稅制和公建的調度上、國家稅金的投資上，做這樣的調整，是否有助於我們因應少子化的問題？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，沒錯，我想這也是為什麼我們各部會現在朝這個方向努力的一個原因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現有問題要請教主委跟次長，PE和REITs要導入以租代建，我先講一下，軌道建設、機場跟電廠具自償性，要做REITs、要做PE，其實都大有人在對不對？但是政府有個東西其實可以來導入PE和REITs，譬如說監獄、職務宿舍、政府的辦公廳舍，如果政府不要自己花錢興建，以租代建，請問一下，這些公共建設有沒有可能用PE或REITs來做？請問主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：REITs是必須要跟不動產做連結。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有兩種東西，一種純粹是這個不動產所創造出來的金流，我只針對金流，不針對不動產本身，REITs要跟不動產綁在一起，這兩個有個選擇，假設要跟不動產本身綁在一起，那當然是可以用REITs來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實不管是監獄、職務宿舍、辦公廳舍，它有一種說法叫PPP。金管會跟財政部來思考一下，你們有沒有盤點或者用以租代建或具自償性適合PPP模式的公共建設，金管會有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們未來在兆元投資計畫裡面也有人提到，比如說以社宅為例，政府本來要花很多錢去蓋……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果可以交給保險公司或民間公司蓋好再租給政府，政府再定期給租金，形成一個穩定的金流。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是PPP的模式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。次長，財政部有去盤點政府很多支出部分其實是具有PPP的性質，要去購買服務，你覺得你們財政部有去協助盤點各部會有這種需求嗎？"],["李次長慶華：有，我們有在協助盤點，而且將來我們也會配合目前我們報院的兆元投資國家發展方案，會來進行進一步的盤點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這個事情我分別問過兩次。首先，在財委會我問過前黃主委，就是說，PE和REITs與乙類公債有相似性，乙類公債就是具有自償性，可以由國家發行公債把公共建設用民間的公債來做，另外具自償性，可以用PE和REITs來做，現在多加了一個以租代建，請問彭主委，你覺得是不是這些乙類公債、PE、REITs，不管是以租代建用PPP的方式，或是公共建設有自償性的都可以這樣做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以租代建的部分當然不在我REITs的管轄範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我覺得大家對REITs的期待很深，因為我們的REITs專法裡面已經規定要有一個一定比例的穩健收入為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個大概跟公債非常相像，我想這個都是可以替代。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。次長，說到乙類公債，您覺得是不是具有這樣的類似性？"],["李次長慶華：是，而且以財政部來講，其實我們現在也在積極推動發行乙類公債，從108年開始我們就一直在盤點非營業特種基金主管機關，希望他們能夠利用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請次長抬頭看一下，在三年前我就問過之前的蘇部長，就是有沒有促參之外發行乙類公債？有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果多少？5%啊！乙類公債比例低是不是代表你們沒有盤點去推動？從2021年我問到現在，你們推動了多少？"],["李次長慶華：有，其實我們一直……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你繼續講。"],["李次長慶華：我們其實都一直有在盤點，但是因為它有一個自償性的特色，所以可能是因為這樣的關係受到一些限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：各部會的意願都不高啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我還問了一個，就在去年問到你們部長，我說希望你們從去年開始推動ESG公債，然後要盤點哪些項目可以發債來做ESG公債，你盤點後不止可以知道哪些是ESG、哪些是具有自償性的，而且如果你盤點過了，今年乙類公債比例就可以提高。請問一下，你們要研議到現在，你到底能不能告訴我現在政府部門有哪些公建項目可以導入證券化？今年發行多少ESG公債？比例多少？有沒有答案？"],["李次長慶華：導入證券化這件事情，因為證券化條例還沒有通過，所以目前還沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：條例還沒通過，所以是立法院的責任？"],["李次長慶華：但是我們今年有發行一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不需要條例，證券化不需要條例就可以發行乙類公債了。"],["李次長慶華：但是我們已經有發行ESG公債，目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們乙類公債有增加了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：因為臺北市政府跟高雄市政府……"],["鍾委員佳濱：多少？"],["李次長慶華：今年就已經發了七檔的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比例從5%增加了多少？"],["李次長慶華：比例啊？比例沒有統計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！今天不是莊部長來，如果莊部長來，他就難看了！往下看結論了，請主委跟次長看一下，我的訴求就兩點，請金管會跟財政部，尤其是財政部，上次問過你們，你們還是一樣，盤點的效率很差，請盤點具以租代建以及自償性適合PPP模式的公共建設，三個月提出書面報告，當然金管會是不負責以租代建，你們就提REITs和PE，財政部的部分可不可以提出這個部分？可不可以提出來？"],["李次長慶華：可以，我們配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，下面第二題，請研議明年擴大發行ESG公債方案，三個月提出書面報告可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：可以，配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以？三個月喔！上次已經給你們莊部長很久的時間了，從去年10月到現在，我希望下次再問到你有一些進展，好不好？非常謝謝彭主委，非常謝謝次長以及詹副主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接著我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}