{"error":false,"id":["156183"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156183,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156183","日期":"2024-10-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[26,19],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-10-24T14:08:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-10-24T14:17:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b607c7abda5b9266f6b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f8323946427cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:08:16 - 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我覺得這樣定義起來怪怪啦 因為要壯世代 我感覺你也要加一條這個體重80公斤以上 應該都要納入壯世代"},{"start":75.555,"end":98.394,"text":"你怎麼不贏 呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":101.263,"end":126.129,"text":"可以處理這麼多議題啊因為我看起來這個比較像他這個和經濟比較有關係吧市長你看看這個整部條文的本身你來看這裡面只有那個第4條是跟那個產業發展有關跟產業發展有關只有一條因為他這看起來是一個這應該是稍微反映類似這個"},{"start":130.353,"end":144.167,"text":"他條文又有應用法作用法又有又看起來像基本法的概念如果他是叫做壯世代基本法大概就只是比較一些原則的東西嘛但是他內容又有一些作用法的精神"},{"start":145.729,"end":171.729,"text":"這真有趣所以我認為剛剛在講那個特別法普通法我也覺得蠻有趣的這個中央法規標準法第16條就有規定特別法優於普通法至於這個剛剛我們國民黨委員在講到底傳播法跟勞基法誰是特別法這個我想這個就讓您去做解釋但是特別法優於普通法這是基本的法理原則"},{"start":172.469,"end":201.969,"text":"同樣的在今天我們在討論這個條文的時候壯世代的這個看起來就是這個條文涉及的機關很大當然我可以想像說我們提案的委員他覺得說要替這個55歲以上的人讓他發揮他的更大的作用而且他是不是也有一點覺得說以前很多法律都把它定義叫做老年人口"},{"start":202.909,"end":223.837,"text":"啊這會不會有歧視的問題啊我是覺得說這要怎麼說呢有時候要講歧視也可以講啊要講不是歧視啊老就是老啊老無老以及人之老啊就老啊人家說我胖我也是要接受啊啊就真的胖啊"},{"start":225.49,"end":238.035,"text":"所以這在名詞定義上我也覺得說這個很有不過是一個新的概念啦我們知道事實上很多人都在講到說人進入了一個"},{"start":241.254,"end":255.116,"text":"借您退休可是又還沒有退休或者是真的退休後他要有新的一個人生的規劃看起來這個是比較符合這個壯世代的基本的一個想法我是覺得馬希"},{"start":256.738,"end":282.151,"text":"大家都可以討論可是討論之前要先確定好我們主管的委員會那以今天我們是在衛環委員會我感覺起來衛環來聯審經濟這個感覺上跟他整部條文起來我覺得是有點導致了應該是要以經濟來做主審的主審或者是其他委員會我覺得這個第一個要判斷一下那第二個我想要跟"},{"start":283.211,"end":307.783,"text":"就叫我們部長以及次長就是說我們現在未來如果引進了包括橋外生包括我們如果移工那我們也知道現在移工是不能在工廠裡面不能住在工廠裡面不能住在工廠那未來如果有這些橋外生以及這些移工他住宿的需求你們的規劃是怎樣"},{"start":312.007,"end":327.918,"text":"我請我署長來回答一下好不好那是有辦法回答的回答現在移工僱主的一個法定責任就是要安排他的生活照顧管理這裡面像移工的話就是他要安排住宿那這個住宿一般就要經過地方的公安消防等等檢查要合格"},{"start":328.058,"end":345.948,"text":"蔡易餘是由部主來的,那喬艾森呢?那喬艾森基本上因為大部分因為他在臺灣就學,大部分都有自己的租屋或是學校安排所以這部分大概基本上是不會完全...那就學結束後呢?對,就看喬艾森有時候他自行駐居那這部分就沒有什麼樣的一個..."},{"start":346.288,"end":365.742,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":365.925,"end":392.056,"text":"有些其實他大部分還是自行安排,雇主沒有一定要安排這樣的一個住宿所以雇主就沒有他的義務了,所以說由喬外森自己來安排所以可能未來這個住的問題就會變成,喬外森每天要去發財所以就會延伸到了說喬外森現在如果他們畢業之後,那就是不能打工嘛"},{"start":393.232,"end":409.48,"text":"那我早上我聽那個國發會主委說這部分可能會修正讓他們畢業後可以繼續打工然後兩年後到他們求職期間讓他穩定一個他薪資的來源所以你們未來的方向都是這樣嗎好那第二個我再請教一下就是說我們現在這個中高齡的這個就業狀況"},{"start":413.046,"end":434.692,"text":"目前我們臺灣的比例上仍然是比其他國家以日本來說我們臺灣的65歲以上的就業狀況跟日本比起來我們發現都是比較低表示說我們中高齡的就業還有待加強那這部分你們的方向呢針對中高齡的就業"},{"start":436.272,"end":452.222,"text":"當然我們都正在這個加緊努力因為其實中高齡就業法通過以來我們已經增加38萬的中高齡勞動力了我們希望每年增加10萬以上然後盡快往從中高齡部分其實是67%啦"},{"start":455.763,"end":482.148,"text":"對阿這個是高齡是9%高齡是65歲以上啦那不過委員其實日韓的高齡者為什麼這麼多那麼那麼的饒餐率這麼對啊為什麼跟他們的這一個下流老人狀況有關係因為他們早年年金改革砍太多所以他們現在普遍那個年金太低啦所以他沒有辦法生活"},{"start":482.868,"end":483.829,"text":"臺灣好的是說真的我們的應有潮世代"},{"start":508.383,"end":508.863,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":540.193,"end":540.396,"text":"蔡易餘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1312,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時8分）好，謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長以及經濟部次長。"],["主席：好，經濟部次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，針對我們今天在討論的壯世代，這個壯世代的定義，因為我那天有連署，我想它這個定義不明，因為它的壯世代沒有我啊！我不是壯世代，部長，你覺得是我不壯嗎？我覺得這樣定義起來怪怪的，因為如果要講壯世代，我感覺你也要加一條，體重80公斤以上應該也都要納入壯世代，你怎麼不回答？所以我今天要來這裡就是說，這個壯世代我覺得真的有一點奇怪，因為我們在講這個壯世代，你說就業也好，還是要怎麼樣讓壯世代可以發揮他們的強項，這麼多議題看起來就不是在衛環委員會可以處理的，因為就我看起來這個和經濟比較有關係吧？次長，你以他們這整部條文來看。"],["連次長錦漳：這裡面只有一條，第四條是跟產業發展有關。"],["蔡委員易餘：跟產業發展有關，只有一條？"],["連次長錦漳：對，只有一條，它每一個部會的……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為它看起來是一個……這應該是什麼法？類似這個……它條文又有應用法。"],["何部長佩珊：作用法。"],["蔡委員易餘：作用法，又看起來像基本法。"],["何部長佩珊：基本法。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果它是叫做壯世代基本法，大概就只是一些比較原則的東西，可是它內容又有一些作用法的精神，這很有趣啦。所以我在想剛剛在講的那個特別法、普通法，我也覺得滿有趣的啦，中央法規標準法第十六條就有規定特別法優於普通法。至於剛剛我們國民黨的委員在講，到底船舶法跟勞基法誰是特別法，我想這個就讓你們去解釋。但是特別法優於普通法，這是基本的法理原則。同樣地，今天我們在討論這一個條文的時候，壯世代的條文看起來涉及的機關很多。當然我可以想像，提案委員覺得要讓55歲以上的人發揮更大的作用，而且他是不是也有一點覺得，以前很多法律都定義為老年、老年人口，這樣會不會有歧視的問題？我是覺得，有時候要說歧視，也可以說有，要說不是歧視，老就是老啊，對不對？老吾老，以及人之老，人家說我胖，我也是要接受啊，就真的胖啊，所以這在名詞定義上，我也覺得這個很有……不過這是一個新的概念啦，我們知道事實上很多人都在講說，人進入了一個屆齡退休的階段，可是又還沒有退休，或者是真的退休後，他要有一個新的人生規畫，看起來這個是比較符合壯世代的一個基本想法，我是覺得大家也都可以討論啦，可是在討論之前，要先確定好主管的委員會。以今天我們在衛環委員會來看，我感覺由衛環來聯審經濟，這跟它整部條文看起來，我覺得是有點倒置了，應該是要以經濟來做聯審的主審，或者是其他委員會，我覺得這是第一個要判斷一下的。","第二個，我想要就教部長以及次長，我們未來如果引進包括僑外生、移工，我們也知道現在移工是不能住在工廠裡面的，未來如果這些僑外生以及這些移工有住宿的需求，你們的規畫是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長來回答一下好不好？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，有辦法回答的人回答。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，現在移工雇主的一個法定責任就是要安排他的生活照護管理，像移工的話，就是要安排住宿，這個住宿一般要經過地方的公安、消防等等檢查合格。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說移工是由雇主來……"],["蔡署長孟良：雇主要負責。"],["蔡委員易餘：僑外生呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：僑外生基本上因為他在臺灣就學，大部分都有自己的租屋或是由學校安排，所以這部分基本上是不會完全……"],["蔡委員易餘：那就學結束後呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：就學結束後就看僑外生，有時候他自行住居，這部分就沒有什麼問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果僑外生找到了他的工作，僑外生畢業後兩年的時間，就是他的求職期間嘛。"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：求職期間可能他自己要去找。"],["蔡署長孟良：是，自行住居。"],["蔡委員易餘：他自己要找住的地方，如果他找到工作後呢？一樣是由雇主來安排？"],["蔡署長孟良：找到工作後，基本上，其實大部分還是自行安排，雇主沒有一定要安排這樣的一個住所。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以雇主沒有這樣的義務？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以由僑外生自己來？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，自行安排。"],["蔡委員易餘：自己來安排，所以可能未來住的問題就會變成僑外生自己要去發落，那就會延伸到，現在僑外生畢業之後是不能打工嘛，我早上聽國發會主委說這部分可能會修正，讓他們畢業後可以繼續打工，讓他在兩年的求職期間有一個穩定的薪資來源，所以你們未來方向都是這樣嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個，我再請教一下現在中高齡的就業狀況，目前臺灣的比例上仍然是比其他國家，以日本來說，臺灣65歲以上的就業狀況跟日本比起來，我們百分比是比較低，表示我們中高齡的就業還有待加強，這部分你們的方向呢？針對中高齡的就業。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，我們都正在加緊努力。因為其實中高齡就業法通過以來，我們已經增加38萬的中高齡勞動力，我們希望每年增加10萬以上，然後儘快……中高齡的部分其實是67%，我們希望把它推到70%；這個是高齡，是9%，高齡是65歲以上。不過委員，其實日、韓的高齡者為什麼勞參率這麼高……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：跟他們的下流老人狀況有關係，因為他們早年年金改革砍太多，所以現在普遍年金太低，所以沒有辦法生活，只好被迫，那是被迫就業、被迫要去找工作，他們是有這個狀況，滿嚴重的，所以你去日本、韓國，你會看到很多街上或是到處都是紮營的老人……"],["蔡委員易餘：也許是這個狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這個應該可以再注意一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以這個是被迫就業啦！也不能不考慮這種因素，這個也不是好的。臺灣好的是……說真的，我們的嬰兒潮世代也是臺灣當今最有財富能力的一群人，其實基本上有累積一定程度的財富，然後我們老人的財務狀況相對日、韓老人是好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣55歲以上都是財力最好的，所以才會有像我們這一輩叫做啃老族，我們都努力不要當啃老族。"],["何部長佩珊：委員是菁英啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有、沒有，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員，謝謝部長、次長。接續我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}